Interesting Read: "The President of Good and Evil"

[archive_Ulter]

Where are you getting these quotes from? I need to see the context because that weighs heavily on what's written there.
For instance the first quotes if they were in reference to a child born in Ethiopia where survival and quality of life can swing like a pendulum it makes a difference.

The dog quote isn't making ANY sense to me out of context.

"He also has gone on record stating that the aged and infirm waste too much of our medical resources and should be euthanized."

I don't agree that that is what that quote means.

[archive_Frackal]

Ahh I forgot about those, thanks The Truth. After reading Singer's starvation essay (ridiculous IMO) I googled him and read some more of his stuff. This was early last semester.

Typical ultra-liberal social-engineer who thinks he can decide for everyone based upon his own ideas. If that isn't tyranny I don't know what is.

[archive_Bjaarki]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If that isn't tyranny I don't know what is. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right. You DON'T know what tyranny is. You're about to find out, though.

Singer develops complicated ethical arguments - they are, in fact, complicated, and not simple - and develops them over many pages. The Truth is taking small pieces of the argument - not the place Singer comes to in his thinking, but one of the places he visits as he argues - and presenting it as though it were a conclusion.

I hope you know that's what you're doing, The Truth. Well, in fact, maybe I don't hope that. Because if you do know, you're being misleading and dishonest. I would rather you were misinformed.

Bjaarki

"First, say to yourself what you would become.
Then, do what you have to do."

[archive_Frackal]

It certainly is tyranny.

[archive_Ulter]

Kerry said in his speech that Osama Bin Laden is very good at planning terrorist attacks.

Kerry said in his speech that Osama Bin Laden is very good.

[archive_the truth]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bjaarki:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If that isn't tyranny I don't know what is. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right. You DON'T know what tyranny is. You're about to find out, though.

Singer develops complicated ethical arguments - they are, in fact, complicated, and not simple - and develops them over many pages. The Truth is taking small pieces of the argument - not the place Singer comes to in his thinking, but one of the places he visits as he argues - and presenting it as though it were a conclusion.

I hope you know that's what you're doing, The Truth. Well, in fact, maybe I don't hope that. Because if you do know, you're being misleading and dishonest. I would rather you were misinformed.

Bjaarki

"First, say to yourself what you would become.
Then, do what you have to do." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I said in my post above, I understand what he's saying philosophically--I'm definitely not uninformed (even though I did vote for Bush ). I just happen to disagree with many of his core beliefs. This does not mean I'm misinformed.

"The Truth is taking small pieces of the argument - not the place Singer comes to in his thinking, but one of the places he visits as he argues - and presenting it as though it were a conclusion."

Yes, I'm presenting small pieces of his argument, but I'm not presenting them as a conclusion. These statements, however, do seem to represent practical core beliefs on his part. Regardless of the rest of his philosophical body of thought, some of these beliefs are flagrantly eugenicist.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ulter: The dog quote isn't making ANY sense to me out of context<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The context was that prohibition of sex acts with animals is "speciesism".

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ulter:"He also has gone on record stating that the aged and infirm waste too much of our medical resources and should be euthanized."

I don't agree that that is what that quote means.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was the context in which the statement was made.

I've gotta state that I don't necessarily have a problem on a philosophical level--I just disagree with labeling him an authority on ethics.

[Monster]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ulter:
Kerry said in his speech that Osama Bin Laden is very good at planning terrorist attacks.

Kerry said in his speech that Osama Bin Laden is very good.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>




It would be funnier if it wasnt exactly what was happening...


-------------------------


"You can kill the revolutionary,
but you can't kill the revolution."


I used to not believe in god, till I realized he was me.

[DREXX]

I love that comic strip, the funny this is that it was hosted on the Democrats website LOL

If it's not hard it's not worth doing...

[archive_Bjaarki]

Your posts and replies are dishonest and irresponsible, The Truth. You are indeed, just as I said you are doing, taking steps in Singer's complex arguments, and presenting them as conclusions, because you take them out of context. Coming from a guy with your handle, I hope you appreciate the irony of your actions.

Previously, I would have been inclined to trust what you say. Though I've admired some of your posts, I wouldn't be inclined to trust them any longer.

[archive_Frackal]

Psychological Warfare or sincerity? Or both?

Next on All Things Considered, I'm Fraque'l Seagall.

[archive_the truth]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bjaarki:
Your posts and replies are dishonest and irresponsible, The Truth. You are indeed, just as I said you are doing, taking steps in Singer's complex arguments, and presenting them as conclusions, because you take them out of context. Coming from a guy with your handle, I hope you appreciate the irony of your actions.

Previously, I would have been inclined to trust what you say. Though I've admired some of your posts, I wouldn't be inclined to trust them any longer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Read my last post again.

[archive_Bjaarki]

I did so. Singer is a flagrant eugenecist. And now?

I'm glad you admitted something:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As I said in my post above ... I'm definitely ... uninformed ... of his core beliefs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On another note, I was very interested in one of your views, where you said, and I quote, "... prohibition of sex acts with animals is 'speciesism'."

Does that mean you do it with farm animals?

Everyone can play your game, bro. It accomplishes nothing, and enlightens no one.

Bjaarki

"First, say to yourself what you would become.
Then, do what you have to do."

[archive_the truth]

Bjaarki,

The ellipses were added for the sake of brevity--if I were really being dishonest, as you seem to think, I wouldn't have done that. It's not as though you guys are unfamiliar with his work. Feel free to put up the rest of the material to refute me if you wish. [Edited to add: the use of the ellipses in the Downs Syndrome quote was unfortunate and is my bad--it was not meant to be dishonest. Other than that and part of the chimp quote, my other uses of ellipsis are ". ...[capital letter]"; this indicates "end of sentence, excision of material, new sentence in SAME PARAGRAPH continuing same train of thought". This is a standard device used in presenting quoted material and does not alter the tone of the statements quoted.]

As I said above, I understand him from a philosophical standpoint, but that doesn't make his eugenicist stance any less repugnant to me than that of Joseph Goebbels.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Previously, I would have been inclined to trust what you say. Though I've admired some of your posts, I wouldn't be inclined to trust them any longer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm truly sorry you feel that way simply because my POV opposes yours in this instance. I have always admired your posts, and looked up to you even when I disagreed strongly with you. I will continue to do so.

[This message was edited by the truth on 11-25-04 at 11:13 AM.]

[archive_Frackal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bjaarki:

On another note, I was very interested in sex acts with animals...with farm animals..."



Bjaarki

"First, say to yourself what you would become.
Then, do what you have to do."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



This is fun Call it the Michael Moore quotation glitch.

[archive_the truth]

I forgot this in response to a statement in the oriinal post: [I'm just posting the definitions of the word as noun, as we all agree it is also an adjective]

Main Entry: evil
Function: noun
1 a : the fact of suffering, misfortune, and wrongdoing b : a cosmic evil force
2 : something that brings sorrow, distress, or calamity
source: Merriam Webster

[archive_Bjaarki]

Have either The Truth or Frackal read "The President of Good and Evil"? I know you haven't, Frackal, but you say you've read Singer, Truth. Have you read the book this thread is about?

Just wondering .....

BTW, I'm not disinclined to distrust your posts because your position on this differs from mine. In case you haven't noticed, I differ from the Boss on a million things, but I still trust his posts. Disagree with me all you want, I don't care.

I'll distrust yours because of the way you have misused Singer's stages-of-argument, drawing them out of context and pasting them into your posts as though they were his final conclusions. That is about as honest as what I did to your language, just above. That's why I'm less inclined to trust your posts. When I encounter some phrase and quote you use from someone you don't like, I'll feel compelled now to go and look up the complete context of it to make sure you're not misleading me again. I don't have time to do that. So I'll just distrust your posts.

Bjaarki

"First, say to yourself what you would become.
Then, do what you have to do."

[archive_Ulter]

I don't want to sound like a broken record but can I know where the quotes are coming from so I can see the context myself? It's got nothing to do with trust or mistrust but I asked for them in the beginning and I am still unanswered here.

[PQ]

http://www.petersingerlinks.com/

Most of them seem to be referring to (or are distortions of) excerpts taken from the chapter Taking Life:Humans from Practical Ethics. Scroll down to the list at the bottom, you'll see it. For a better take on the guy, read his articles. You'll see views and presentations on an assortment of topics that are VERY different from the way people are portraying him here.

He goes to great pains to present all sides of ethical issues in his writings (and the subtle differences between them) whether it's voluntary or involuntary euthanasia, assisted suicide, mercy killing vs. murder, abortion, disabilities and abnormalities in children, the subsequent effects on the child's quality of life as well as the parents, animal rights issues, war crimes/casualties...it goes on and on. Each description and analyzation flows into the next. To appreciate the depth and detail, you have to look at the WHOLE WORK.

Taking a snippet from one of his books or articles and drawing a conclusion based on it is like looking at a single piece of a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle and saying you can discern the appearance of the complete image based on that one tiny piece....

[archive_Ulter]

Well maybe I'll start with Singer and His Critics by Dale Jamieson to get an idea what he's about first. Amazon's got it for $21 used.

[archive_Bjaarki]

Thank you, PQ. Excellent analysis, as always.

We seem to have gotten a bit off-topic here. It was interesting how that happened. There is a terrific new book out there on something that has hardly been examined at all, and wasn't even analyzed (just asserted) during the last presidential campaign - the moral stance of the President - and all of a sudden the swirl is around the book's author. No matter that the guy is probably the most influential philosopher in the world today. He, not his subject, is the issue. Why don't y'all read it? Scared you'll learn something?

Again: Read The President of Good and Evil: The Ethics of George W. Bush.

It will educate you about the most powerful man in the world.

Bjaarki

"First, say to yourself what you would become.
Then, do what you have to do."

[archive_Frackal]

It will present an opinion.

[archive_therealj]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bjaarki:

It will educate you about the most powerful man in the world.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thought you had given up trying to educate the masses?

-----------------------------
-----------------------------
therealj@anabolicfitness.net