Madcow Training Questions

Photobear · 08-29-2008, 10:44 PM

Hey guys,

Been looking into starting the Madcow training and had a question. When the workout states that this is an intermediate workout are they referring to how long you have currently been lifting or more by experience and knowledge of form? I'm getting back at it after a year of insane work hours. So, it has been a while, but I do have some experience under my belt.

Also, I would be interested in ya'll sharing your experience with trainging in that method.

Great to be back,
PB

Cynical Simian · 08-29-2008, 11:30 PM

"Intermediate" is a measure of how rapidly you can make progress (add weight to the bar), which is usually (see below) closely related to how long you've been training. (It happens that more complex programming is necessary to make progress as you advance, but whether you should use more complex methods is determined by whether they're necessary and the fastest way to make progress, not simply by whether you understand them.) Here are some (very) rough definitions of the different stages of a lifter's career:

novice - adds weight to the bar (on a particular lift) every workout
intermediate - adds weight to the bar every week
advanced - unable to make significant week-to-week (linear) progress, dual-factor training necessary

I said "usually" above because other factors, such as layoffs, can affect how quickly one is able to make progress at a given time. So even a very advanced lifter might run a month or two of an "intermediate" (weekly weight increases) program to regain his strength after a layoff. If you're getting back into things, I think the Intermediate 5x5 would be a good way to get your strength and conditioning back; you definitely shouldn't jump directly to the Advanced (dual-factor) program right after a layoff. Even if you find that it's necessary down the line, at this point it'd be overkill and would only slow your progress (compared to the Intermediate version).

As for personal experience, I got started training with the Madcow Intermediate 5x5 (Starting Strength, in which Mark Rippetoe outlines his 3x5 novice program, hadn't been released yet; if I'd known about that program I would've done it for my first few months). I think it's a great way to learn about training and make progress, and the basic principle of progressive loading of compound lifts is still the foundation of my training.

Pan · 08-30-2008, 06:38 AM

I had a huge break from training due to workload at uni. So I became deconditioned and lost a bit of strength. So a jumped on the 3x5 a month ago and I'm pretty much nearly caught up. Another month or so (if all goes according to plan) I will be hitting PRs for the 3 top sets of 5 that I could even do for a 1RM.

Trust me, selling yourself short on this occasion is a very good thing. I had run the 5x5 in the past. Like CS I wished I had know about the 3x5 beforehand. Weekly progress is nothing compared to progress every single session for squats and every other session for everything else. It's like you're saying to your body hey it's alright I don't need you to adapt 'TOO' much.

While programs shouldn't be cookie cutter, I find that the 3x5 is brilliant because of it's simplicity and it doesn't really need to be messed with.

Just in case you don't know what the 3x5 is:

Workout A
Squat - 3x5
Bench - 3x5
Dead - 1x5 (ramped to a single top set of 5 instead of 3 top sets)

Workout B
Squat - 3x5
OH Press - 3x5
Pendlay Row - 3x5

add the smallest weight plate increment you have EVERY session. You can do some accessory dips after workout A and chins after workout B but that's it. If you're going to do abs don't overdo it. Alternate these two workouts in a three times per week schedule and you WILL improve.

It's better to start lower than too close to your current maxes, so be patient and give yourself a nice run up.

Pan · 08-30-2008, 06:55 AM

I've altered the order somewhat to fit my preferences. My workouts look like this:

A
Squat - 3x5
Bench - 3x5
Row - 3x5
Chins - 3x5

B
Squat - 3x5
OH Press - 3x5
Dead - 1x5/Goodmorning - 3x5
Abs

I felt having my strongest three lifts (squat, bench, dead) all in one session was a bit unnecessary, so I swapped the rows and dead around to make the tonnage a bit more balanced. I also alternate deads with goodmornings to relieve the strain on the CNS due to the massive loading, because I use significantly less weight on GMs, and they also hit the hamstrings a bit better too.

Blut Wump · 08-30-2008, 07:50 AM

My typical post-layoff schedule is very similar to Pan's. Play with volume by feel but the important thing is not to aim to recover your "old self" too quickly. Set a reasonable time-frame and plan your progress accordingly. If you push the workload harder than your recovery ability can cope with then you'll ache a lot more and you'll slow yourself down.

08-29-2008, 10:44 PM	#1 (permalink)
Photobear AF Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 75 Rep Power: 6012	Madcow Training Questions Hey guys, Been looking into starting the Madcow training and had a question. When the workout states that this is an intermediate workout are they referring to how long you have currently been lifting or more by experience and knowledge of form? I'm getting back at it after a year of insane work hours. So, it has been a while, but I do have some experience under my belt. Also, I would be interested in ya'll sharing your experience with trainging in that method. Great to be back, PB

08-29-2008, 11:30 PM	#2 (permalink)
Cynical Simian Bighead Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 918 Rep Power: 38358	"Intermediate" is a measure of how rapidly you can make progress (add weight to the bar), which is usually (see below) closely related to how long you've been training. (It happens that more complex programming is necessary to make progress as you advance, but whether you should use more complex methods is determined by whether they're necessary and the fastest way to make progress, not simply by whether you understand them.) Here are some (very) rough definitions of the different stages of a lifter's career: novice - adds weight to the bar (on a particular lift) every workout intermediate - adds weight to the bar every week advanced - unable to make significant week-to-week (linear) progress, dual-factor training necessary I said "usually" above because other factors, such as layoffs, can affect how quickly one is able to make progress at a given time. So even a very advanced lifter might run a month or two of an "intermediate" (weekly weight increases) program to regain his strength after a layoff. If you're getting back into things, I think the Intermediate 5x5 would be a good way to get your strength and conditioning back; you definitely shouldn't jump directly to the Advanced (dual-factor) program right after a layoff. Even if you find that it's necessary down the line, at this point it'd be overkill and would only slow your progress (compared to the Intermediate version). As for personal experience, I got started training with the Madcow Intermediate 5x5 (Starting Strength, in which Mark Rippetoe outlines his 3x5 novice program, hadn't been released yet; if I'd known about that program I would've done it for my first few months). I think it's a great way to learn about training and make progress, and the basic principle of progressive loading of compound lifts is still the foundation of my training. Last edited by Cynical Simian; 08-29-2008 at 11:40 PM.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Helpful links suggested by members
Cycles for Pennies a day by DC	The original thread by Dogg Crapp aka Dante
Pubmed	National Institute of Health Public Library.
Real Sports Report on Steroids	The truth about steroids that only HBO would present. MP4 Large file. Use Real Player
Merck Medical Manual	Merck manual of medical information
AAS: Mechanism of Action and Effects on Performance	Encyclopedia of Sports Medicine and Science California State Univ. Explanation of AAS effects on athletes
Carlorie King	The world's largest food database
ExRx Exercise and Muscle Directory	Exercises by muscle parts and vice versa. Includes video of popular exercises.
Wholesale Hair Products	Nizoral and other hair products
USDA National Nutrient Database	The nutritional value of all foods.
Fitday.com	Detailed Nutrition for 1,000's of foods with macro breakdowns
List of brand names for drugs	What various drugs are called by name brands around the world.
Getpinz.com	Medical and lab supplies
Health Tests Direct	Blood tests by mail without a prescription

08-30-2008, 06:38 AM	#3 (permalink)
Pan Gold Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 290 Rep Power: 34043	I had a huge break from training due to workload at uni. So I became deconditioned and lost a bit of strength. So a jumped on the 3x5 a month ago and I'm pretty much nearly caught up. Another month or so (if all goes according to plan) I will be hitting PRs for the 3 top sets of 5 that I could even do for a 1RM. Trust me, selling yourself short on this occasion is a very good thing. I had run the 5x5 in the past. Like CS I wished I had know about the 3x5 beforehand. Weekly progress is nothing compared to progress every single session for squats and every other session for everything else. It's like you're saying to your body hey it's alright I don't need you to adapt 'TOO' much. While programs shouldn't be cookie cutter, I find that the 3x5 is brilliant because of it's simplicity and it doesn't really need to be messed with. Just in case you don't know what the 3x5 is: Workout A Squat - 3x5 Bench - 3x5 Dead - 1x5 (ramped to a single top set of 5 instead of 3 top sets) Workout B Squat - 3x5 OH Press - 3x5 Pendlay Row - 3x5 add the smallest weight plate increment you have EVERY session. You can do some accessory dips after workout A and chins after workout B but that's it. If you're going to do abs don't overdo it. Alternate these two workouts in a three times per week schedule and you WILL improve. It's better to start lower than too close to your current maxes, so be patient and give yourself a nice run up.

08-30-2008, 06:55 AM	#4 (permalink)
Pan Gold Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 290 Rep Power: 34043	I've altered the order somewhat to fit my preferences. My workouts look like this: A Squat - 3x5 Bench - 3x5 Row - 3x5 Chins - 3x5 B Squat - 3x5 OH Press - 3x5 Dead - 1x5/Goodmorning - 3x5 Abs I felt having my strongest three lifts (squat, bench, dead) all in one session was a bit unnecessary, so I swapped the rows and dead around to make the tonnage a bit more balanced. I also alternate deads with goodmornings to relieve the strain on the CNS due to the massive loading, because I use significantly less weight on GMs, and they also hit the hamstrings a bit better too.

08-30-2008, 07:50 AM	#5 (permalink)
Blut Wump The Venerable Wump Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: UK Posts: 7,208 Rep Power: 304596	My typical post-layoff schedule is very similar to Pan's. Play with volume by feel but the important thing is not to aim to recover your "old self" too quickly. Set a reasonable time-frame and plan your progress accordingly. If you push the workload harder than your recovery ability can cope with then you'll ache a lot more and you'll slow yourself down.