interesting discussion on WSB

[silver_shadow]

drsquat.com :: View topic - Speed reps

want to know what you guys think about it.... the thread starter is a friend of mine (i'm not on that forum BTW) who insists that on a scale of good better best, WSB is better.

[G-REX]

I use the Westside method, and have used progressive overload as well as a trial with Sheiko system. If applied properly, and done correctly the Westside system has done wonders for my powerlifting as well as my strength in general. I've gotten alot more out of it than any other system. I've also trained several powerlifters that have had alot of success on the local and national level using the Westside methods. Now, that being said, I do believe each and every lifter needs to take the time and figure out what works for them and how best to apply it, as well as how to organize their training so that it works for them. I'm not one of these absolutists that thinks this is the only way to train, I honestly believe that you can have success with just about any type of training that is well thought out and addresses the individual lifters needs, be it Progressive Overload, Sheiko, Westside, Progressive Evolution, Metal Militia, etc.....

Mr. Icarus, from what I read in the thread simply didn't do his homework on the system and didn't see what all is involved in the Westside training regime. He seemed to think it was nothing but pulling 50% of your one rep max for a couple of reps then go home. It doesn't work that way, if he had read up on it he would have found that different percentages are used based on whether you pull conventional or Sumo. He'd probably also found that the percantages listedare a guideline, they're not etched in stone. He also would have learned that all the heavy work is done on a seperate day than the speed work. He'd also have learned that the lifters do a variety of specialty lifts in order to bring up their individual weakpoints, thus the lift as a whole gets better. Again, I just hink he didn't do his homework.

[Evidence]

G-Rex i do agree that the homework was not done and full understanding of wsb template was not expressed. You mentioned off the top of your head like 5 different options of programs to try. That's it my friend. Training is not law. In theory, there is no "way" that is absolute. Only "ways" that can work based on the knowledge we have knowing that it has been a means of progress in the past. All we have really are options. Options that have data supporting they work or they don't work. But who is to decide that they work? G-Rex said it, ultimately you decide what works.

I mean you can take any issue that has been discussed on this very board at one time and find this out. Eric Talmant who needs no introduction to most here did a recorded study on using speed work in powerlifting. Recorded all the results from the tendo units and all the lifts where charted the whole way through the program. Concluded that speed work has absolutely no place in a sport such as powerlifting that is based on limit strength. Yet, many of you here have expressed that speed work has actually worked tremendously on improving your lifts. So who is wrong here? How about no one. How can you tell Eric Talmant, no it does work, or tell you on this board no it doesn't work. This training game is a beautiful thing, and the day you meet a person who tells you he has all the answers and has it all figured out; you just met someone who cannot help you.

[bigdamray]

Awesome posts fella's!!

[silver_shadow]

lol i've been trying to explain to icarus that:

1) 50% is just a guideline
2) it's done with bands and chains
3) it's not the only thing that is done.

but he still doesn't seem to get that - at least it appears that way in his posts.

furthermore, in my conversation with him, he didn't seem to understand (based on the material on the net) how things are periodized. my guess is that he's wedded to the idea of separate blocks of strength and hypertrophy and speed being tackled in the course of training with nothing special done for it.

however what i'm more interested in is dr squats comments on the 2nd and 3rd page of the thread:
drsquat.com :: View topic - Speed reps

[JoeD]

Since Ive been training at Westside since the summer, I'll throw in my 02.

The % is just a guideline, in fact, everyone at Westside (who even does DE work for lower body) goes all by feel. and I never see anyone there going below the 60%ish range.

Every time I heard a strength coach bash Westside it's because they're misinformed about how they actually train or they spew complete bullshit. That is why Louie will gladly have ANYONE come down and see what goes on there. I reccommend anyone who gets the opportunity to give him a call and come down and see what really goes on there.

I'll agree w/ your friend that the conjugate method is superior to all training. I say the conjugate method because lots of people say they train Westside, but you only train Westside when you lift there. You would understand if you trained there, Louie leaves A LOT out in his articles and everything else.

[JoeD]

Originally Posted by Evidence

I mean you can take any issue that has been discussed on this very board at one time and find this out. Eric Talmant who needs no introduction to most here did a recorded study on using speed work in powerlifting. Recorded all the results from the tendo units and all the lifts where charted the whole way through the program. Concluded that speed work has absolutely no place in a sport such as powerlifting that is based on limit strength. Yet, many of you here have expressed that speed work has actually worked tremendously on improving your lifts. So who is wrong here? How about no one. How can you tell Eric Talmant, no it does work, or tell you on this board no it doesn't work. This training game is a beautiful thing, and the day you meet a person who tells you he has all the answers and has it all figured out; you just met someone who cannot help you.

Eric Talmant is wrong. Who exactly did he do the studies on and how? Did he do it right? That is just ridiculous.

Did you know that there has been studies, and I mean that in plural form -- studies that bands don't work!? I bet I could make a study that says bands work and so does speed work.

Eric needs to come down and make a trip to Columbus, Ohio.

I will say this also. There are people who are super explosive naturally who probably wont benefit as much from speed work. There are others who are strong as hell but lack the speed to push heavier weights and speed work will probably help them out more. A classic example is George halbert when he first came to Westside. He pushed his bench up to 500 but he told me when he pushed up his speed work it went to 600 raw.

Everyone has probably seen the types. The explsoive guys will smoke a heavy weight but get buried by 20 lbs more. The strength dominant guys are the ones who make heavy weights look like a grinder but keep banging them out.

I will agree not everyone does speed work, there are guys at Westside who don't do DE squat days, but not many. I dont think speed work HAS to be done to get bigger #s either. Lots of strong guys dont do it. To say it has no place in powerlifting....stupid.

[G-REX]

I'm an explosive lifter, and I still do speed work. Not as much as a newb might need to, but I still do it. If nothing else, it's just more of a maintenance thing now. It works for me and I'll keep doing it when I'm preparing for a meet. In the off-season, I switch my speed work to more of a rep routine. Helps put on more size and build the necessary stamina I'll need once the meet prep starts back up.

I agree with Joe that speed work doesn't benefit everyone, I've got a guy in my gym that never does speed work and has squatted 928 in comp. I think he's doing okay without it! Just depends on the individual, more than anything that's what the conjugate method is about. Finding out what works for you, the individual. If it works for you, keep it. If it doesn't? Put it on a shelf and try again later, nothing saying that what doesn't work for you now, can't work later. The opposite of that is also true. Just because something is working for you now, doesn't mean it always will. Your body adapts and the law of diminishing returns will eventually catch up to you.

[JoeD]

Originally Posted by G-REX

I'm an explosive lifter, and I still do speed work. Not as much as a newb might need to, but I still do it. If nothing else, it's just more of a maintenance thing now. It works for me and I'll keep doing it when I'm preparing for a meet. In the off-season, I switch my speed work to more of a rep routine. Helps put on more size and build the necessary stamina I'll need once the meet prep starts back up.

I agree with Joe that speed work doesn't benefit everyone, I've got a guy in my gym that never does speed work and has squatted 928 in comp. I think he's doing okay without it! Just depends on the individual, more than anything that's what the conjugate method is about. Finding out what works for you, the individual. If it works for you, keep it. If it doesn't? Put it on a shelf and try again later, nothing saying that what doesn't work for you now, can't work later. The opposite of that is also true. Just because something is working for you now, doesn't mean it always will. Your body adapts and the law of diminishing returns will eventually catch up to you.

Yep youre right.

Louie even told me specifically to work on other things on DE bench day. I still did it sometimes, but like you said, not always. Out of the whole summer I probably did DE squat days about 4-5 times, because I needed to work on other things. You're right very individual. I think people take the guideline Louie puts out there and thinks it's set in stone. That's why you don't train Westside unless you train there because it's different then what everyone thinks.

Also, slightly off topic, but guys like Eric Talmat and the other EliteFTS guys aren't Westside. A lot of people mix Westside and the Elite guys up. None of the Elite guys train there and the ones who did are powerbuilders now and disagree w/ some of Westside's methods. I think JackAss is the only one who still follows it. You just see a lot of questions with EliteFTs and Westside in the QNA and on the boards. It just gets annoying when someone puts both of them in the same sentence, because they're not the same at all

[ILIEKFUDE]

Originally Posted by JoeD

Yep youre right.

I think people take the guideline Louie puts out there and thinks it's set in stone. That's why you don't train Westside unless you train there because it's different then what everyone thinks.

Yup, ive come to believe that the most fundamental part of the westside philosophy is to first identify yr own weaknesses and then to attack them properly. Then realizing this is a perpetual process. If yr doing a cookie cutter then yr not doing westside.

[Evidence]

Originally Posted by JoeD

Eric Talmant is wrong. Who exactly did he do the studies on and how? Did he do it right? That is just ridiculous.

Did you know that there has been studies, and I mean that in plural form -- studies that bands don't work!? I bet I could make a study that says bands work and so does speed work.

Eric needs to come down and make a trip to Columbus, Ohio.

I will say this also. There are people who are super explosive naturally who probably wont benefit as much from speed work. There are others who are strong as hell but lack the speed to push heavier weights and speed work will probably help them out more. A classic example is George halbert when he first came to Westside. He pushed his bench up to 500 but he told me when he pushed up his speed work it went to 600 raw.

Everyone has probably seen the types. The explsoive guys will smoke a heavy weight but get buried by 20 lbs more. The strength dominant guys are the ones who make heavy weights look like a grinder but keep banging them out.

I will agree not everyone does speed work, there are guys at Westside who don't do DE squat days, but not many. I dont think speed work HAS to be done to get bigger #s either. Lots of strong guys dont do it. To say it has no place in powerlifting....stupid.

Everything he did was posted on EliteFTS. Even attached the email to one of his coaches and said if you had any other questions to contact him. veggaman@verizon.net. He's the best out there at 165 so I would think he knows what he is doing.

[JoeD]

Originally Posted by ILIEKFUDE

Yup, ive come to believe that the most fundamental part of the westside philosophy is to first identify yr own weaknesses and then to attack them properly. Then realizing this is a perpetual process. If yr doing a cookie cutter then yr not doing westside.

Exactly, train your weaknesses. thats exactly what is about.

Originally Posted by Evidence

Everything he did was posted on EliteFTS. Even attached the email to one of his coaches and said if you had any other questions to contact him. veggaman@verizon.net. He's the best out there at 165 so I would think he knows what he is doing.

Next thing youre going to tell me is that Chris Clark is one of the best SHW

BTW he's not even close to being the best out there at 165. Im not taking anything away from what he's accomplished in the sport, but those are the facts.

First off, Louie made the conjugate method popular in America and has been doing it since Eric was in diapers. That's not to say Louie knows everything(he'll tell you that himself) but if something doesnt work Louie would be the first one to nix it.

Now what are you going to believe evidence? A study or Westside's real world results? C'mon now, youre smarter than that.

PS I dont care to contact Eric because I know saying that speed work doesnt belong in powerlifting or any sport is WRONG. I have seen and heard from some of the best in the game that speed work has taken their lifts to new heights... I also understand that some people dont need it or use it to be super strong....

one last thing -- even if he were the strongest 165er that doesnt mean anything. The strongest arent always the smartest when it comes to training. Thats not saying weak guys like myself are smart, just making the point that strong doesnt mean smart. I mean Scott Yard is a very impressive lifter and he says box squatting and free squatting are two differemtn movements and you lose your stretch reflex if you dont box squat.!

[Evidence]

Well you asked me were I got my info and I told you. All I was trying to say was I felt G-Rex made a great point earlier on this thread and I was just writing in response to that. It would be ignorant for you to tell Eric Talmant what works and what doesn't, just as it would be for him to tell you what works and what doesn't while you're at westside and he's not. Thats all I was trying to say. Whether Eric is one of the best or not isn't the point to any of this. It's basically as I said earlier, what works for you is ultimately just that. What works for you. And having the opportunity to learn from others and keep what is making us better a part of the arsenal. I agree totally with what Fude said, if you're following a cookie cutter routine then you're not doing the right applications of wsb (as Louie intended). That's why some of the greatest books out there like Supertraining and Science and Practice don't have routines in them to try. I mean look at Joe Defranco for example. He has made very popular his WSB4SB routines by taking WSB templates and modifying them as he felt appropriate for his athletes. How is he able to make money off of the WSB name that he isn't a part of? I can't answer that, but if he has an athlete that is progressing under such a routine, then that is what this game is all about. It's about the athletes and the people who are training trying to get better. And if that is happening, then you're getting that much closer to success.

[JoeD]

Originally Posted by Evidence

Well you asked me were I got my info and I told you. All I was trying to say was I felt G-Rex made a great point earlier on this thread and I was just writing in response to that. It would be ignorant for you to tell Eric Talmant what works and what doesn't, just as it would be for him to tell you what works and what doesn't while you're at westside and he's not. Thats all I was trying to say. Whether Eric is one of the best or not isn't the point to any of this. It's basically as I said earlier, what works for you is ultimately just that. What works for you. And having the opportunity to learn from others and keep what is making us better a part of the arsenal. I agree totally with what Fude said, if you're following a cookie cutter routine then you're not doing the right applications of wsb (as Louie intended). That's why some of the greatest books out there like Supertraining and Science and Practice don't have routines in them to try. I mean look at Joe Defranco for example. He has made very popular his WSB4SB routines by taking WSB templates and modifying them as he felt appropriate for his athletes. How is he able to make money off of the WSB name that he isn't a part of? I can't answer that, but if he has an athlete that is progressing under such a routine, then that is what this game is all about. It's about the athletes and the people who are training trying to get better. And if that is happening, then you're getting that much closer to success.

Ive mentioned that some of the best guys here don't do speed work, but for Talmat to say that it has no place in powerlifting is definitely wrong because for many people it really does have a place w/ or w/o his study and his accomplishments in the game. That's all Im saying, otherwise I agree w/ you.

I applaud DeFranco for taking the conjugate system and making it work also. He's done great and gets results. Even though the title of his program is called "westside for skinny bastards" it's still not Westside though. So he's making money off of calling his version of the conjugate method WS4SB.. I dont think Louie has a problem with it, and it works.
I've seen what Louie does w/ athletes and Ive had conversations with how the athletes are trained. It's similar to how defranco does it but there are definitely differences there also, .. but that leads me to my next point that i wanted to say.

every lifter or someone who uses the conjugate method gets mixed with training Westside and then people confuse what others do with what Westside actually does. You only train Big Iron if you train with Big Iron you only train westside if you train at westside, well you get the point. I just think for inquiring minds people should know what the difference between people who a spinoff of one's methods and people who use their actual methods. That way there isn't any misinformation about Louie or Westside or the Elite guys or anyone else for that matter.

sometimes i wanna go insane when i see someone posting about how an elitefts guy trains or did this and draws conclusions about Westside methods. i bet someone is going to have a question about Westside methods and speed work and someone is gonig to draw up Eric's study saying they shoulndt do it because Eric trains Westside style and says it doesnt work.

[Evidence]

Eric trains Sheiko from the last thing I read and doesn't really comment on WSB training. I understand your point, you don't train westside unless you train at westside. But what about guys like Mark Bell who has his own gym that has trained at westside and consults with Louie and lists him as a mentor. Is it fair to say that Mark doesn't train westside when he trains in California, eventhough he'd be doing the same workouts as he were with louie in Columbus? (not always the same workouts, but what if the only thing that was different was instead of doing the workouts at westside he did them with team supertraining?)