interesting discussion on WSB

[Evidence]

I am a huge Louie Simmons supporter. I respect him very much. Love the Westside guys very much. He's very good at what he does. I support the conjugate method very much as many of previous posts have stated.

But what he does isn't on a football field or on a track, it's in the weightroom. They aren't the same. That's all i'm saying. He is good at making people strong. Size and strength doesn't always translate onto a playing field. If that were the case, every elite powerlifter would be starting in the NFL. And we all know that isn't true. Strength is a part of the game, not the game. I never said I knew more than anyone. Just giving my opinion just like you do. Go Westside!

[JoeD]

Originally Posted by getjacked

well you are showing your distaste for louie in the above post evidence with no real substance. i guess you missed the part where there are multi multi multi million dollar coaches that trust louie to guide their athletes in the football weight room. do you and pan happen to know more about training professional football players than coaches with 20+ years of experience? what are your qualifications for implying you know more about training football athletes than they do? i mean come on man..

hes not on the same level as francis, but lets not discredit louie completely.

"wsb"/concurrent/conjugate programs are pretty popular amongst not only NFL teams but plenty and plenty of college teams. do the majority use it? no, but like i said, lets not discredit him completely.

as well, what does randleman losing have to do with louie? louie is not a technical teacher, he does not know how to fight or teach one how to fight. he knows how to make people strong and randleman is bar none one of the strongest most explosive fighters that has ever graced the MMA stage, ever. randleman has gassing issues but that is not louies fault, randleman has said before he has problems with "blowing his load" so to speak, again not louies problem.

you are once again arguing against the man with emotion and showing your distaste for him (for whatever reason) rather than logic.

exactly. His argument doesnt have any substance besides he thinks all Louie knows is powerlifting.


pls someone answer my question. if speed is the reason for moving big weights then why do we have weight classes?

[Evidence]

Exactly Joe, becasue in real life there are no weight classes. There are no weight classes in football, basketball, etc. Why? Becasue people like pacman jones who weigh like 170 could run down and tackle jeremy shockey who outweighs him by 90 pounds. Allan Iverson can dunk on people who are a foot taller and outweigh him by 120 pounds. Speed will overcome strength in sport. Speed can allow you to move more weight as Nate and Pan have said. I can't discuss anything with you or getjacked becasue it turns into this all day and i'm just going to stop after this. There are weight classes in wrestling and in MMA becasue with skill being equal a bigger stronger opponent can possess a huge advantage. It doesn't mean bigger stronger athletes always have the advantage. I said when skill is equal or similar. It's common sense you have to divide the great fighters and wrestlers into respective weight classes and not lump them all together. Brock Lesnar fighting someone who is 140 pounds makes a lot of sense right? Same thing with Powerlifting. With similar ability and qualities, having a size and strength advantage can be unfair. You'll hear over at EliteFTS all day long, you want your totals to go up? Step 1. GAIN WEIGHT (they all say you need weight to move weight) all to a point of course. And again not in every case, but those cases it applies creates an unfair advantage. You'll find weight classes apply in a sport that is 1 on 1 and distinct advantage can occur in some instances in regards to an opponent being outweighed.

You are correct in Louie does know powerlifting. He's great at it. So you do what you are know, have experience in and are good it. It ends there though my friend. I guess I will have to say this since you don't read what I say. I LOVE LOUIE SIMMONS. As a person as a contributor to the strength community, his outlook in general. He is a no bullshit guy who is very passionate about what he does and I will support him and westside barbell in their respective avenue of training.

His background isn't in sport Joe. His background isn't in football. My background isn't in track, so you don't see me training track athletes. But you see him working with NFL guys and track athletes. And god bless him, but that's not his area of expertise. His results show that. He has produced countless numbers of champion powerlifters. That's very special. He hasn't produced olympic champions or professional athletes. There is nothing wrong with that. It's not hate on Louie. It's a fact. Powerlifting doesn't translate into all areas of other sport. It is, what it is. Getting someone ready for a meet and getting someone ready for Sunday afternoons game are two different animals. Usain Bolt, Terrelle Owens, Kobe Bryant, Barry Bonds would not benefit in their respective sports by training Westside. Doesn't mean westside isn't good. It means Westside isn't the answer for every sport need. That's not hate or stupid jiberish. That's a fact. It's not shame on louie here people. It's shame on the NFL guys who go to him. Why go to a person who was never in your shoes prepare you for that exact thing. That's why this country is ass backwards in sport preparation. China and U.S.S.R. got it right. I know, those communist countries, you're all going to tell me if you don't like here go away. It's hypocritical, people complain in the political forum everyday as they should. (sorry for off topic here)

Go Westside! (for powerlifting and very very strong people who work extremely hard)
Go Charlie Francis(for track and field preparation)
Go Tom Myslinski (for NFL preparation)
I am not granting these people the all knowing pass. No one is perfect and all have their faults. People are allowed to make choices at to who are their favorites and who they would go to. If I were in those situations , that's who i cast my vote to.
They aren't all the same yet can all co exist in this lovely place called the united states of america and what is wrong with that? Nothing

	ASS Nelson Montana

[JoeD]

Originally Posted by Evidence

Exactly Joe, becasue in real life there are no weight classes. There are no weight classes in football, basketball, etc. Why? Becasue people like pacman jones who weigh like 170 could run down and tackle jeremy shockey who outweighs him by 90 pounds. Speed will overcome strength in sport. Speed can allow you to move more weight as Nate and Pan have said. I can't discuss anything with you or getjacked becasue it turns into this all day and i'm just going to stop after this. There are weight classes in wrestling and in MMA becasue with skill being equal a bigger stronger opponent can possess a huge advantage.

Evidence it's obvious you have little experience in the weight room, working with athletes, or both. Have you ever watched a football game before? Do you reguarly see corners blowing up lineman? How come Linebackers are 250 lbs. Dont you think the corners with blazing speed can beat out the slower 300 lb lineman? C'mon man seriously?

The correct answer to why they have weight classes is because the BIGGER you are the STRONGER you are. Damn man. Did you watch the olympics? Ever see a PL meet? are the small gusy ever pushing the weights the big guys are?

Can 170 pacman jones BLOW up an offensive lineman? Why not? Could Jeremy shockey put pacman on his ass during a running play? A TE usually doesnt get covered by a corner anyway.

Listen, I gave Charlie his credit because of his numerous elite runners. I harped on his training because I thought that what he thought was so dangerous to his athletes wasn't very dangerous at all. Other than that, i only read bits and pieces so I can't say anything more about Charlie because Ive never witnessed his magic, only read about parts of it.

On the other hand I'm giving Louie his credit and backing him up because I saw what he did in person. I'm also defending him because I'm familiar with his methods and how he implements them with athletes. You and Nate are pulling things out your ass and trying to pass it off as fact.

So if Louie DOES eventually get his elite sprinter and he/she ends up in the Olympics, what are you going to say then? You can't train what you don't have. It's also apparent you have no fucking clue what Louie's area of expertise is.

	ASS Nelson Montana

[JoeD]

oh and for the record. ALL of louie's methods are from the USSR, Bulgaria, East Germany and the Ukraine.. ALL the countries that you got a hard on for.

Before I started lifting I weighed 140 and coudlnt touch the net on a basketball court. Now I can grab the rim at 210. How did I do that? My box jump has increased from 46'' to 50''......

BTW there are a coule PLers that have made it into the NFL... one is on the redskins right now, but he's on IR bc he got injured in pre season.


By the way, the US oly lifting team has your same mentality. They think that it's all about speed and don't do any strength exercises to push up their oly lifts..they can't get anyone to QUALIFY ....what a shame.


Well I guess I'll end there because I coach high school twinks and 95% of them won't see a decent college in sports. but i guess since none of my twinks turned into pros or olympians I probably don't ahve the slightest clue to what im talking about either

[Evidence]

That's very ignorant and uncalled for to tell someone that it's obvious they have little experience in the weightroom or asking them if they have ever seen a football game considering their background. I don't talk about myself on here, infact i got an instant message from a member saying you aren't here for you and i'd like to learn more and asked me a lot of questions. I'm proud of that. I just now posted a pic becasue many asked for it and will be taken down very soon as that's not why i'm here. I have been here for over 5 years and never had an avatar. Those who have been here will tell you that. It's not important.

Joe, I have played volleyball, basketball and football on scholarship in college. I don't have to remind anyone on this board how tough it is to do one while taking classes, let alone 3. I told you before I would stop, but you are getting personal now and very out of line. It's one thing to disagree with someone and have different opinions. As I have had with many respected people on this board, but the word is respect. Which Joe you have non of. I have been an athlete since I could walk. I was good enough to take that to a higher level and have a passion to working with youth and help prepare them in sport.

I have spent time as a counselor for young kids who have been sexually abused, raped, neglected, etc. Being a social worker is not a financially satisfying job. But no money could ever validate the way I feel about those kids I either train, or tucked in every night and said I love you as tears came out wondering why this young man is giving a damn about them! I am currently working with and training some high school athletes and hope one day I will be able to call that my lifes work for the pure reason of loving sport and knowing how bad my training was when I was young. I had people working with me who never played that sport becasue they were someone's parent or a teacher at the school trying to make an extra buck. I do what I do becasue I love it and know I make a difference. Ask people like Trivial what it would mean to her to have someone out there who would have the back of her children if anything where to ever happen to her or her husband. I only bring her up because we have talked about it in the past. I take great offense of you saying those words to me when that is very untrue and false. This has nothing to do with our differing points of view, but everything to do with your ignorant behavior. So before you tell someone those things above that you just told me, you might want to come off your ego trip and realize that might be the exact opposite of who you are speaking to. I appreciate all the information you have brought to this forum from your experiences from westside, but you have gone way beyond having and educated banter with a member.

I hope to never speak to you again becasue what I would say would be wildy inappropriate and far from friendly. I hope everyone is having a wonderful friday and I am sorry for wasting everyone's time who this doesn't apply to.

[Polski Byk]

Speed reps and speed work is essential for explosive power in any sport. this concept dates way way back. Very effective.

[Nate]

maybe i should have been more clear... when i said "speed work" i meant sprinting... not dynamic effort lifting.

for an athlete who is not a beginner, sprinting will lead the weights & allow the weight room poundages to climb higher... rather than the other way around.

let me say that an athlete needs to get stronger with total body weights, and through GPP for this to be the case, because if an adequate amount of strength is lacking, the sprinting cannot greatly contribute to overall organism strength. so i'm saying, yes, at the beginning, you must get athletes strong, for this (sprinting leading weights) to occur.

let me relay a story passed on by charlie francis himself. maybe to a point this can help people understand why in sport, weights are general & you will reach a point where getting stronger will not increase sprinting speed/on field performance.

here it is:

charlie francis relaying a story to help illustrate the role weights play in the training of an athlete:

"The other is my millionth telling of the story of Kondrateva, the 1980 Olmympic 100m champ. She divorced her husband/coach and married Yuri Seydich, the Olympic hammer champ. So Seydich said to me:"I looked at her weight training program and it was a shambles. Well I straightened that out!"
Of course, the weights were great but she never ran well again."

[getjacked]

Originally Posted by Evidence

I am a huge Louie Simmons supporter. I respect him very much. Love the Westside guys very much. He's very good at what he does. I support the conjugate method very much as many of previous posts have stated.

But what he does isn't on a football field or on a track, it's in the weightroom. They aren't the same. That's all i'm saying. He is good at making people strong. Size and strength doesn't always translate onto a playing field. If that were the case, every elite powerlifter would be starting in the NFL. And we all know that isn't true. Strength is a part of the game, not the game. I never said I knew more than anyone. Just giving my opinion just like you do. Go Westside!

your argument still makes no sense. want to know what seperates football players? skill. what is louie? a skill coach? no, he's a strength coach. is francis a skill coach?

you still have not given one solid reason why louie cannot train a football player in the weight room, and have yet to back up your claim of "he should never train any athletes"

[JoeD]

Originally Posted by Evidence

That's very ignorant and uncalled for to tell someone that it's obvious they have little experience in the weightroom or asking them if they have ever seen a football game considering their background. I don't talk about myself on here, infact i got an instant message from a member saying you aren't here for you and i'd like to learn more and asked me a lot of questions. I'm proud of that. I just now posted a pic becasue many asked for it and will be taken down very soon as that's not why i'm here. I have been here for over 5 years and never had an avatar. Those who have been here will tell you that. It's not important.

What's ignorant is talking about something you know nothing about and passing it off as fact. Yes, I'm surprised as hell that you played football and still have the same views you do. Notice I never ripped Francis and gave him his credit because I dont know much about him other than he produces great sprinters?

bro, I don't really care if you posted a pic, had an avatar or not, have people ask you questions, how long you been here, how many people respect you etc... that does nothing for any of your arguments.

Here's a real question. What is your experience in training athletes? have you ever trained with charlie or any well known strength coaches that get results?


p.s. i can't believe that little thing i said offended you. did you train w/ the cheer leaders when you played football? no one way you survived the environment in the weight room w/ the football players... you probably wouldnt like Louie's verbal abuse either lol.

[JoeD]

Originally Posted by getjacked

your argument still makes no sense. want to know what seperates football players? skill. what is louie? a skill coach? no, he's a strength coach. is francis a skill coach?

you still have not given one solid reason why louie cannot train a football player in the weight room, and have yet to back up your claim of "he should never train any athletes"

exactly!!! He doesnt understand the difference between a strength coach and a coach that teaches technique and the sport.

Was Louie the reason for the patriots success? No
Was Louie the reason why the browns were so bad when Buddy Morris was there? No

Being a strength coach prepares the players for the vigors of the sport, they dont teach the actual sport themselves and thats exactly what the conjugate method has done for those NFL teams. difference was one team has good players coaching and another team didn't.

[Polski Byk]

Louie Simmons makes peope strong, very strong in all aspects of the word. His principles and methods on strength can carry over very well to any sport with very few modifications. He focuses on making the core and everything above and below it durable and fuctional. That imo and work experiences works well in sport. Now conditioning is another animal.

[JoeD]

Originally Posted by Polski Byk

Louie Simmons makes peope strong, very strong in all aspects of the word. His principles and methods on strength can carry over very well to any sport with very few modifications. He focuses on making the core and everything above and below it durable and fuctional. That imo and work experiences works well in sport. Now conditioning is another animal.

not to sound like a huge homer even more but he has a pretty good grasp on conditioning also.

I think the biggest diffrence is like getjacked said is the skill and technique which is what a coach is for. Louie does know very liittle about when it comes to each sports skill and technique but his conditioning is pretty good.

In fact most of randleman's conditioning was done at westside. He usually has his MMA fighters condition like they are in a fight. He'll have them do farmers walks for 5 min rest 1 min, then do kb clean and jerks for 5 min off 1 min off, one legged leg presses 5 min on 1 min off, etc.... fighters conditioning is pretty sick.

though the old man does have this judo champion come down and show him a thing or two. the old man is already fucked up i dont know why he tangles with this guy but whatever floats his boat ha ha.

[Polski Byk]

Originally Posted by JoeD

not to sound like a huge homer even more but he has a pretty good grasp on conditioning also.

I think the biggest diffrence is like getjacked said is the skill and technique which is what a coach is for. Louie does know very liittle about when it comes to each sports skill and technique but his conditioning is pretty good.

In fact most of randleman's conditioning was done at westside. He usually has his MMA fighters condition like they are in a fight. He'll have them do farmers walks for 5 min rest 1 min, then do kb clean and jerks for 5 min off 1 min off, one legged leg presses 5 min on 1 min off, etc.... fighters conditioning is pretty sick.

though the old man does have this judo champion come down and show him a thing or two. the old man is already fucked up i dont know why he tangles with this guy but whatever floats his boat ha ha.

Im sure , he does alot of gpp work with his athletes. "Conditioning" is a broad term though, peaking in your conditioning for fights, dieting down and maintaining good cardio and strength while doing so, proper rehrdration teqniques after weigh in. Heavy weights are easy to condition there is rarely ever a concern on making weight. Now a guy who cuts 20-25 lbs now there is where the hard work comes in. You mentioned the leg press, machines should never be used by fighters and most other athletes, never want to put your body in a fixed position, because in sport your rarely in one. Louie Simmons is a master of what he does and his strenght training methods are battle proven constantly by the strenght athletes he produces, but as far as conditioning goes... He is on the low end of that totum pole.