interesting discussion on WSB

[Pixie]

Originally Posted by Nate

as far as other sports go, such as football, basketball, track & field, etc... dynamic effort lifting has no place whatsoever.

Really?? I don't remember straining or grinding through a 100 m run or the hurdles when I ran track, or moving slow through the tumbling exercises I did during floor routines in gymnastics. Dynamic effort lifting or dynamic anything has a HUGE place in sports like "football, basketball, track & field, etc." That's where they are most important. To encourage the speed, dynamic efforts that make one successful in those sports.

[Nate]

Originally Posted by JoeD

So DE work is bad for athletes now? Increasing RFD in muscles doesnt work for athletes? Im interested in how you came to that conclusion..

i didnt say it was bad, i just said it really has no place... as charlie francis has explained before:

the specific RFD in a sport that involves sprinting is so high it renders the weight speeds irrelevant.

[JoeD]

Originally Posted by Nate

i didnt say it was bad, i just said it really has no place... as charlie francis has explained before:

the specific RFD in a sport that involves sprinting is so high it renders the weight speeds irrelevant.

So jumping has no place either? That is considered dynamic effort also and from what I know Charlie Francis jumps his athletes.

[Nate]

Originally Posted by JoeD

So jumping has no place either? That is considered dynamic effort also and from what I know Charlie Francis jumps his athletes.

i didnt say plyometrics, i said DYNAMIC EFFORT LIFTING. why cant you address my post instead of ignoring what i said?

please, you and pixie both, debate this statement:

"the specific RFD in a sport that involves sprinting is so high it renders the weight speeds irrelevant."

obviously you both think thats wrong, please explain why.

thanks

[silver_shadow]

Originally Posted by JoeD

You see this is the kind of stuff that bothers me. You guys are saying that speed work could be pure fiction and it shouldn't be in powerlifting because you are tested in the 1RM only...

not i sir. i believe it definitely has it's place in PL no matter what the *studies* might say or what dr squat says. i think you misunderstood bro.

[JoeD]

Originally Posted by Nate

i didnt say plyometrics, i said DYNAMIC EFFORT LIFTING. why cant you address my post instead of ignoring what i said?

please, you and pixie both, debate this statement:

"the specific RFD in a sport that involves sprinting is so high it renders the weight speeds irrelevant."

obviously you both think thats wrong, please explain why.

thanks

Because I've SEEN the dynamic effort lifting work in the real world. I dont need to get a nerdy Scientists to confirm it. That's the whole point of this thread.

Charlie Francis also refuses to use bands or chains or do 1 rms because he thinks it's dangerous. He also says to do tons of reps on abs and never do lower reps..... Does that make this all true also?

Also, most jumping isn't plyometrics...

[silver_shadow]

Originally Posted by Nate

i didnt say plyometrics, i said DYNAMIC EFFORT LIFTING. why cant you address my post instead of ignoring what i said?

please, you and pixie both, debate this statement:

"the specific RFD in a sport that involves sprinting is so high it renders the weight speeds irrelevant."

obviously you both think thats wrong, please explain why.

thanks

i believe there are a few top athletes (specific names/examples elude my memory right now) out there who do a bit of olympic lifting in the off season. that's a kind of DE workout innit?

i've been told so by a schoolmate of mine who's ranked on the ATP computer - he told me about how many of the top guys in tennis do a bit of olympic lifting.

[JoeD]

Originally Posted by silver_shadow

i believe there are a few top athletes (specific names/examples elude my memory right now) out there who do a bit of olympic lifting in the off season. that's a kind of DE workout innit?

i've been told so by a schoolmate of mine who's ranked on the ATP computer - he told me about how many of the top guys in tennis do a bit of olympic lifting.

olympic lifting.. it's only dynamic effort if they're lifting in the right %.

Now oly lifting is definitely something that doesn't belong in sports. The top oly athletes JUMP to increase their explsiveness. Yet you ask a strength coach why they use the oly lifts and they say "because it increaeses explosiveness." well, you can be explsivie with any lift. Even Siff said oly lifts were useless for athletes and he loved oly weight lifting.

[Pixie]

Originally Posted by Nate

i didnt say plyometrics, i said DYNAMIC EFFORT LIFTING. why cant you address my post instead of ignoring what i said?

please, you and pixie both, debate this statement:

"the specific RFD in a sport that involves sprinting is so high it renders the weight speeds irrelevant."

obviously you both think thats wrong, please explain why.

thanks

I don't agree with that statement based off my own personal experiences and my education (which includes a doctorate in the area of exercise, muscle usage and physical activity, if that matters any). If I was to explain this to you with all the information I have, we'd all get bored, the point of this thread would be lost and I don't have the time... too much stuff to do in so little time.

Based on experience alone... I can say that when I did DYNAMIC EFFORT LIFTING of any sort when I was involved in those types of sports you listed, it only improved my capability to activate my muscles quickly for those faster movements, like hurdles, or floor routines and vaulting in gymnastics. It had a place and only made me improve and more successful. If I didn't lift dynamically, my progress stalled or sometimes worsened.

That's all I'm going to say here. In other words, I will not debate your statement further. You can disagree if you want, Nate. That's the beauty of being free thinkers and being individuals. What works for me, doesn't necessarily work for you (one of the good messages mentioned in this thread, I might add). So, if you're in those sports you listed and dynamic lifting didn't help, then you don't need to do it to be successful. But, that doesn't mean it won't help your best friend, your teammates or anyone else for that matter.

I, personally, believe/know there's a place for it, and I know quite a few others that agree that dynamic effort lifting has it's place in those sports that you listed. Therefore, I'll continue to encourage those that are in those sports to use dynamic effort lifting as I see fit, but I'll also encourage them to find what works for them... not just blindly use what works for me, or what's stated in articles, books or the like.

[getjacked]

Originally Posted by JoeD

Because I've SEEN the dynamic effort lifting work in the real world.

has louie produced any olympian sprinters? i cant think of any but maybe im wrong

you would be hard pressed to find a coach of top level sprinters having them do dynamic effort lifts..

[Pan]

Originally Posted by JoeD

You see this is the kind of stuff that bothers me. You guys are saying that speed work could be pure fiction and it shouldn't be in powerlifting because you are tested in the 1RM only... With that logic assistance work isn't necessary because youre lifting in the 65-85% most of the time. With that logic you shouldnt use different exercises or different bars because youre not tested in a SSB or a box squat. Basically you guys are saying it doesnt work and you are drawing your conclusions from NOTHING.

Im not trying to say Westside is the best way and only way to lift. There's a lot of proof on this board that that simply isn't true. But you guys are sitting on your computers after reading a book saying DE work couldn't work. You're basically saying former soviet union sports scientists, the bulgarian's, other top lifting info from top European countries, and real world experience from the top guys in the strength game in america are wrong... all based off of a study from ERIC TALMAT and other logic.

I know for a fact if I stop DE work all together for an extended period of time the bar moves much slower. and just because a bar is moving slow doesnt mean there isn't any speed being applied to the bar. You know you can apply more force to the bar than there is actually on th bar?


So DE work is bad for athletes now? Increasing RFD in muscles doesnt work for athletes? Im interested in how you came to that conclusion..

The soviets were the ones who developed the methodologies and they were correctly applied to sports such as hammer throw, shotput, olympic weightlifting etc. All of which have a speed component. I would argue that powerlifting does not

The point of my post was that while you may observe increases in strength while using speed work, what is to say that it was solely down to the speed work? Louie advocates the use of so many different principles that it is impossible to gauge whether what percentage the speed work is contributing to the gains people experience?

As for you not liking science, heavy work trains your body to recruit MORE motor units over a period of time. Speed work trains the body to recruit LESS motor units FASTER. This is fact

G-rex very cleverly pointed out the example of when speed work would be necessary. Props

GetJacked also wisely pointed out the fact that very few world class athletes actually do speed lifting. It is mostly plyos and medicine ball work with heavy basic exercises such as back squats and power cleans

[JoeD]

Originally Posted by getjacked

has louie produced any olympian sprinters? i cant think of any but maybe im wrong

you would be hard pressed to find a coach of top level sprinters having them do dynamic effort lifts..

He had one and he got her down to a 50.3 400m which is pretty damn good. But her coach said she wasn't into it that much and then came off drugs, and she ended up running a 53.something at the olympic trials....

He is actually trying to get elite sprinters and he wouldn't mind getting an elite olympic weight lifter to train @ Westside for a year so he can prove his methods to a different crowd. There's a lot of critics in the strength and conditioning field and in the olympic weight lifting field, but not many are willing to come down for a visit.

[JoeD]

Originally Posted by Pan

The soviets were the ones who developed the methodologies and they were correctly applied to sports such as hammer throw, shotput, olympic weightlifting etc. All of which have a speed component. I would argue that powerlifting does not

The point of my post was that while you may observe increases in strength while using speed work, what is to say that it was solely down to the speed work? Louie advocates the use of so many different principles that it is impossible to gauge whether what percentage the speed work is contributing to the gains people experience?

As for you not liking science, heavy work trains your body to recruit MORE motor units over a period of time. Speed work trains the body to recruit LESS motor units FASTER. This is fact

G-rex very cleverly pointed out the example of when speed work would be necessary. Props

GetJacked also wisely pointed out the fact that very few world class athletes actually do speed lifting. It is mostly plyos and medicine ball work with heavy basic exercises such as back squats and power cleans

Well... I said my piece. If you think there is no speed involved in powerlifting, you probably never done it. Jeeze, I shouldve sat my ass home this summer. All the world clss info is right here on the boards. I had no idea about what heavy weights do as far as inter/intra muscular coordination.

	ASS Nelson Montana

[GTLifter]

Originally Posted by Nate

as far as other sports go, such as football, basketball, track & field, etc... dynamic effort lifting has no place whatsoever.

Sal Alosi, S&C coach of the NY Jets, disagrees with you.

[Evidence]

Originally Posted by Pixie

Really?? I don't remember straining or grinding through a 100 m run or the hurdles when I ran track, or moving slow through the tumbling exercises I did during floor routines in gymnastics. Dynamic effort lifting or dynamic anything has a HUGE place in sports like "football, basketball, track & field, etc." That's where they are most important. To encourage the speed, dynamic efforts that make one successful in those sports.

I believe Nate has hit the nail square on the head in this debate. Even though you say speed and dynamic effort make one successful in sport, what many feel is speed work through the nature of DE weightlifting is really nothing more than just moving lighter weight faster than you are moving your ME weight. (I've seen people use 3 rep weight that is almost a 3 rep max and say they are doing speed work, based on the bar is moving faster than a 1 rep max, but not moving to the point of qualifying it as speed work) Most of the time, of course not always, people say they are doing speed work on the bench for example, but to record and examine how fast the bar is really moving, wouldn't really be speed work in it's true form. It's nearly impossible to argue with someone such as Charlie Francis, but if you guys feel you're more qualified than him with Olympic level competition as an athlete as well as a successful coach, then be my guest and bring your information to the table.

[JoeD]

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