McCain on supplements and prohormones

[Harleymarleybone]

Originally Posted by IronSlade

This type of media attention is set up perfectly for a potential president like McCain, who will then come in and use it as a justification to ban all supplements. Yeah, I think he would do that.

Well, that's a little silly. So far it has been Congressmen leading the anti-steroid crusade, and Democrats at that - Mitchell (of the Mitchell Report), and Henry Waxman.

[Ulter]

Originally Posted by Harleymarleybone

Well, that's a little silly. So far it has been Congressmen leading the anti-steroid crusade, and Democrats at that - Mitchell (of the Mitchell Report), and Henry Waxman.

It's not silly. McCain and Biden are the authors of a bill to put supplements under the same strict FDA controls as drugs. It costs $60 million dollars to get FDA approval on a drug. It would cost us $60 million dollars to introduce a product like Red Blast under this bill. Which means only the largest drug companies would be selling supplements. You could work out with Centrum Silver.

	Red Blast RED BLAST contains Pure Creatine ethyl ester, black tea methylxanthines that enhance the Central Nervous System, improves oxygen uptake via bronchiodilation and anti-inflammatory effects as well as increases the NO effects of Arginine Ethyl Ester, Ornithine Ethyl Ester and norvaline.

[Harleymarleybone]

Originally Posted by Ulter

It's not silly. McCain and Biden are the authors of a bill to put supplements under the same strict FDA controls as drugs. It costs $60 million dollars to get FDA approval on a drug. It would cost us $60 million dollars to introduce a product like Red Blast under this bill. Which means only the largest drug companies would be selling supplements. You could work out with Centrum Silver.

As I said, it is silly to say McCain wants to ban (or treat as drugs) *all* supplements, or even most. He has never authored a bill with that purpose. McCain has supported banning prohormones, - which as you have said is just a euphemism for steroids - and some stimulants. Banning otc sale of steroids is not such a radical idea, however much some of us do not like it. Okay, I suppose Ron Paul, would support legalizing steroids, but he is otherwise a loon, and unelectable, in my humble opinion.

Yes, if I were selling supplements and one of them were on a list that McCain wants to ban, as a matter of self-interest, I obviously would not be happy with McCain in that respect. But I don't sell supplements. Just my perspective.

[Ulter]

Originally Posted by Harleymarleybone

As I said, it is silly to say McCain wants to ban (or treat as drugs) *all* supplements, or even most. He has never authored a bill with that purpose. McCain has supported banning prohormones, - which as you have said is just a euphemism for steroids - and some stimulants. Banning otc sale of steroids is not such a radical idea, however much some of us do not like it. Okay, I suppose Ron Paul, would support legalizing steroids, but he is otherwise a loon, and unelectable, in my humble opinion.

Yes, if I were selling supplements and one of them were on a list that McCain wants to ban, as a matter of self-interest, I obviously would not be happy with McCain in that respect. But I don't sell supplements. Just my perspective.

I do not and never have sold prohormones. I would welcome their demise.
You're confusing their hearings on steroids and prohormones with the bill they wrote to put ALL DIETARY AND HEALTH SUPPLEMENTS under the same FDA guidelines as the drug companies have for drugs.

[Harleymarleybone]

Originally Posted by Ulter

I do not and never have sold prohormones. I would welcome their demise.
You're confusing their hearings on steroids and prohormones with the bill they wrote to put ALL DIETARY AND HEALTH SUPPLEMENTS under the same FDA guidelines as the drug companies have for drugs.

I said "and some stimulants." Your products contain stimulants, right?

Which bill is that? If you are referring to S. 722, the bill that Dick Durbin (D) also introduced, it does not do that. It puts more restrictions on supplements, but not the same as drugs, and it doesn't "ban all supplements." Actually, you should thank McCain, since he voted for the DSHEA bill which kept the FDA off the supplement industry's back since 1994. Where is your gratitude?

[Harleymarleybone]

Originally Posted by Ulter

I do not and never have sold prohormones. I would welcome their demise.

Oh and DHEA is generally considered to be a prohormone. Some of your products contain DHEA, right?

[Ulter]

None of the new laws ban supplements. The bills that would have been much tougher on supp companies did not pass yet. I don't know that they will. I only know McCain's view on it because of the bill he co-authored. It did not pass either.

I said "and some stimulants." Your products contain stimulants, right?

I read what you wrote and my answer did not address stimulants. I didn't deny selling them I didn't say I did sell them. I didn't say anything. My objection is with prohormones. So why are you asking me that quoted question as though I denied selling stims?

I said I would welcome the demise of prohormones. If that means removing prohormones that are already classified as supplements by the FDA, like DHEA, I would be all for it. Because we're not really talking about prohormones. What supp companies sell as prohormones are in fact steroids. DHEA is a true health supplement, not a steroid dressed up as a prohomone.
Your post has a distinct political air about it. I'm not arguing for or against McCain as a presidential candidate. I don't like his position on steroids, I don't like his position on supplements, I don't like a lot things he's done. Voting for DSHEA was common sense. He's peeled back his support of it ever since and especially in 2003. So no, I don't thank him for anything.

[Blut Wump]

Originally Posted by Harleymarleybone

Oh and DHEA is generally considered to be a prohormone. Some of your products contain DHEA, right?

You could say the same about cholesterol.

[*Bunny*]

Originally Posted by Blut Wump

You could say the same about cholesterol.

DHEA is technically a prohormone, but classified as a health supplement by the FDA. It's not a steroid disguised as a prohormone.

What am i missing here? BW help explain it to me?

[Blut Wump]

All the steroids are derived from cholesterol; it's the ultimate prohormone.

[Ulter]

Originally Posted by *Bunny*

DHEA is technically a prohormone, but classified as a health supplement by the FDA. It's not a steroid disguised as a prohormone.

What am i missing here? BW help explain it to me?

The 'prohormones' that congress held hearings on in 2003 were really steroids. Patrick Arnold and others were digging up old formulas for steroids and calling them prohormones. Because they had not officially been declared steroids, they could sell them as prohormones. Some companies are still doing it. Prohormones by definition are drugs that are converted to hormones.
And I agree, obviously cholesterol is the prohormone of all time.

[Harleymarleybone]

Originally Posted by Ulter

None of the new laws ban supplements. The bills that would have been much tougher on supp companies did not pass yet. I don't know that they will. I only know McCain's view on it because of the bill he co-authored. It did not pass either.



I read what you wrote and my answer did not address stimulants. I didn't deny selling them I didn't say I did sell them. I didn't say anything. My objection is with prohormones. So why are you asking me that quoted question as though I denied selling stims?

Hmm. This is getting a little convoluted and picayune. I don't know maybe I wanted to screw with your head. Haha. No seriously, remember, I said that McCain wanted to ban some prohormones and some stimulants. I then said, if I sold supplements that were on McCain's hit list, then as a matter of self interest, I would not be too happy with him either. Then you responded insisting that you never sold prohormones. Okay good for you, not that I could give a flying phuck - you can sell whatever you want, as far as I am concerned, and I might even buy some! But I said "prohormones and some stimulants." So when I reminded you that you sold stimulants, the point was that I can understand why as a matter of self interest you would not be too happy with McCain, since stimulants were on his hit list. Capice?

[Harleymarleybone]

Originally Posted by Ulter

I said I would welcome the demise of prohormones. If that means removing prohormones that are already classified as supplements by the FDA, like DHEA, I would be all for it. Because we're not really talking about prohormones. What supp companies sell as prohormones are in fact steroids. DHEA is a true health supplement, not a steroid dressed up as a prohomone.
Your post has a distinct political air about it. I'm not arguing for or against McCain as a presidential candidate. I don't like his position on steroids, I don't like his position on supplements, I don't like a lot things he's done. Voting for DSHEA was common sense. He's peeled back his support of it ever since and especially in 2003. So no, I don't thank him for anything.

Yes, I know the new laws (like S. 722) don't ban them, but they can effectively ban them under certain conditions.

Okay when you said that you have never sold prohormones, you meant you have never sold steroids dressed up as prohormones.

I don't see McCain as much of a threat on the supplement front, actually. The FDA already has the power to ban particular supplements if it really wants to (under DSHEA). I don't think it's a priority for him.

Yes, I am sure DSHEA was commons sense to you. Common sense is a funny thing. The people who voted against DSHEA probably did not think it was common sense.

[Harleymarleybone]

Originally Posted by Blut Wump

You could say the same about cholesterol.

I could say that cholesterol is generally considered to be a prohormone?

Hmm. I don't think it is generally considered to be.

Whether it makes sense to say it is a prohormone, is another question.
Probably for the term to be useful and meaningful, the molecular structure and conversion process would have to be a lot closer to a hormone. But if you want to try to sell vegetable oil as a prohormone best of luck!

[Blut Wump]

From the point of view of some tissues that have no significant response to testosterone but to DHT then testosterone is the chemical worth considering to be the prohormone and DHEA is just another part of the chain of which cholesterol is the progenitor.

To some, it makes little good sense to deem DHEA to be a prohormone and cholesterol not to be. Cholesterol is just one step away from pregnenolone under the action of desmolase, or as it's now commonly called, P450scc.

As for "generally considered", that can only refer to minor subsets of humanity, anyway, and I'd suggest that only the educated subsets are worthy of note in this matter.

The olive oil industry is a good tradition. Maybe I should consider it.