Bench Press vs. Weighted Dips

[Swole_2112]

Somebody help me figure this out.

I can do weighted dips with four plates. However, I'd say I'm normally only hitting in between 315 and 335 on the bench. Why am I so strong on weighted dips and relatively "weak" in bench? What's going on here? Anybody?

[cranny]

Not sure about your question bro but I would like to add for you to be careful w/ the weighted dips. That's some impressive weight you're handling but the very same thing totally fucked up my shoulder for a couple years. Perhaps it was just me but I wouldn't wish that injury on anyone.

[Swole_2112]

I definately will be careful. I've mostly been doing weighted dips lately because I injured my shoulder doing behind-the-neck presses. Weighted dips was the only movement that allowed me to train a similar dynamic of muscles when compared to the bench press without bothering my shoulder.

[cranny]

After a second look your bench isn't weak in my book at all Swole. Unless you're a P'lifter I would think 335lbs is respectable in anyone's eyes.
Perhaps you could train using chains or bands. Is it your tris giving out? Maybe some board presses if you're lagging at the top. Or is it at the bottom of the movement you feel weakest?

[rmexico]

That seems like a big discrepancy. I'd be pretty impressed if I saw someone doing dips with four plates at my gym.

Do you go all the way down when you do dips?

If so, your triceps are certainly strong. Maybe your shoulders are weak. When you miss a bench attempt, how far is the bar off your chest? How much can you overhead press?

[Alumni]

I got my bench up to 365 by doing heavy dl's and squats. Not bad for a 200lb. Fella. I usually can't get more than 3 45lb plates on my dip belt comfortably. I would think dips would increase decline bench and military press?

[Swole_2112]

After a second look your bench isn't weak in my book at all Swole. Unless you're a P'lifter I would think 335lbs is respectable in anyone's eyes.
Perhaps you could train using chains or bands. Is it your tris giving out? Maybe some board presses if you're lagging at the top. Or is it at the bottom of the movement you feel weakest?

My bench definately sticks at the bottom. Usually, once I get to a certain distance above my chest, I'm able to push the rest of the way.



Do you go all the way down when you do dips?

If so, your triceps are certainly strong. Maybe your shoulders are weak. When you miss a bench attempt, how far is the bar off your chest? How much can you overhead press?

When I do the dips, I lower myself until my upper arms are parallel with the floor. I should mention that when I do weighted dips with four plates, I can only get it for a double.

Also, my best overhead press was about 235lbs.

[Swole_2112]

I got my bench up to 365 by doing heavy dl's and squats. Not bad for a 200lb. Fella. I usually can't get more than 3 45lb plates on my dip belt comfortably. I would think dips would increase decline bench and military press?

There doesn't seem to be any translation from weighted dip strength to bench press strength... at least for me there's not.

[silver_shadow]

what kind of bench press form are you using? sometimes improving technique could add a significant amount of weight to your bench (assuming it's slightly sloppy to begin with - such as extra wide grip and flared elbows).

[Swole_2112]

what kind of bench press form are you using? sometimes improving technique could add a significant amount of weight to your bench (assuming it's slightly sloppy to begin with - such as extra wide grip and flared elbows).

Elbows moderatly bent with a slight arch in my back. Middle finger on the ring.

[G-REX]

If you're missing at the bottom, your chest is weak. Since you state that once you get the weight to a certain height you can grind it out, your triceps are stronger than your chest. This would explain why you can dip so much but your bench is lagging.

If you want your bench to get stronger, you'll need to get your shoulder issue addressed. Get to an ortho, get it examined and get it dealt with before you damage your shoulders to the point of injury. Then you're screwed. If you tear a cuff, labrum, or anything else it's a long difficult recovery that inhibits everything your going to try and do in the gym. You won't be able to squat with a bar on your back, you wont be able to pull, and just about nothing for the upper body. Right now it may just be that you've got some inflammation that you keep aggravating that can be dealt with by injection and a couple of days off.

On a side note, dips aren't really a good exercise to do for low, heavy reps. As Cranny stated earlier, dips are great way to tear up your shoulders. When you've already got a jacked up shoulder, I'd back off the weight and up the reps a bit. On weighted dips, I'd say 5's is about as low as I'd go and I'd try and stay closer to 8-12's.

Oh, and depending on how you're performing your dips you may or may not be recruiting the chest musculature at all. If you stay real upright without much forward lean, it's almost all tricep. Only if you bend forward at the waist and flare the elbows out are you going to bring a lot of chest into the movement. Best of luck!

[Mr. Pelham]

I compare this to apples and oranges. I think it's the same to ask why my squat sucks but can deadlift x amount...apples and oranges

[Swole_2112]

If you're missing at the bottom, your chest is weak. Since you state that once you get the weight to a certain height you can grind it out, your triceps are stronger than your chest. This would explain why you can dip so much but your bench is lagging.

If you want your bench to get stronger, you'll need to get your shoulder issue addressed. Get to an ortho, get it examined and get it dealt with before you damage your shoulders to the point of injury. Then you're screwed. If you tear a cuff, labrum, or anything else it's a long difficult recovery that inhibits everything your going to try and do in the gym. You won't be able to squat with a bar on your back, you wont be able to pull, and just about nothing for the upper body. Right now it may just be that you've got some inflammation that you keep aggravating that can be dealt with by injection and a couple of days off.

On a side note, dips aren't really a good exercise to do for low, heavy reps. As Cranny stated earlier, dips are great way to tear up your shoulders. When you've already got a jacked up shoulder, I'd back off the weight and up the reps a bit. On weighted dips, I'd say 5's is about as low as I'd go and I'd try and stay closer to 8-12's.

Oh, and depending on how you're performing your dips you may or may not be recruiting the chest musculature at all. If you stay real upright without much forward lean, it's almost all tricep. Only if you bend forward at the waist and flare the elbows out are you going to bring a lot of chest into the movement. Best of luck!

Well, I definately hear what you are saying and, to a certain extent, agree. Strangely enough, bench press would bother my shoulder but weighted dips, not at all. In fact, I was able to do them without one single shoulder ache. I would lean forward for the purpose of engaging my chest and I think it was because I maintained shape pretty well. Although, I'd never heard of having to flare out the elbows to employ the chest even more. I'd like to learn about it.

Yesterday, I benched for the first time in about six weeks. No shoulder pain, whatsoever. So, I believe it was a just a bit of connective tissue strain. It feels fine, now. So, how can I strengthen my chest so I can get my bench up?

[G-REX]

Well, I definately hear what you are saying and, to a certain extent, agree. Strangely enough, bench press would bother my shoulder but weighted dips, not at all. In fact, I was able to do them without one single shoulder ache. I would lean forward for the purpose of engaging my chest and I think it was because I maintained shape pretty well. Although, I'd never heard of having to flare out the elbows to employ the chest even more. I'd like to learn about it.

Yesterday, I benched for the first time in about six weeks. No shoulder pain, whatsoever. So, I believe it was a just a bit of connective tissue strain. It feels fine, now. So, how can I strengthen my chest so I can get my bench up?

IF it's just for the sole purpose of bringing up your bench press. I'd go with a rep program that I use with most of the guys and gals that bench with us. It lasts about 10-12 weeks and should put 25-30 lbs on your bench. More if you're on. Your tricep strength seems more than sufficient for what you can handle off your chest. You just need to bring up the lagging muscle groups in order to press more. My guess is that the chest and shoulders just need to be brought up to what the triceps can do and your bench should move pretty quick. How tall are you and what is your general build, long arms, short arms??? What does your bench technique look like? How do you set up your bench? All will play a big role in how quickly you can build a big bench.

[Swole_2112]

IF it's just for the sole purpose of bringing up your bench press. I'd go with a rep program that I use with most of the guys and gals that bench with us. It lasts about 10-12 weeks and should put 25-30 lbs on your bench. More if you're on. Your tricep strength seems more than sufficient for what you can handle off your chest. You just need to bring up the lagging muscle groups in order to press more. My guess is that the chest and shoulders just need to be brought up to what the triceps can do and your bench should move pretty quick. How tall are you and what is your general build, long arms, short arms??? What does your bench technique look like? How do you set up your bench? All will play a big role in how quickly you can build a big bench.

5'10", muscular/athletic build, average length arms for my height

I place my middle finger on the ring. I put a slight arch in my back so that only my shoulder blades and ass are touching the bench. While keeping my arms straight, I pull my shoulders back then lift the weight off the rack by bringing my shoulders forward.

I bring the weight down slowly. I feel as if I go any faster, I'll snap my right bicep. Once I touch my chest, I press, making sure to keep the arch in my back. Once my arms are fully extended, I rack the weight. That's pretty much it.

Do you think your method could integrate well into the Bill Starr 5X5? That's what I'm running right now.

[Jrod5150]

I think you just need to try a couple of adjustments with your form/technique. You got the strength. You just need to find a comfert zone. I used to have a poor bench and it became one of my strongest points overtime. How are your legs? I always make sure my feet are set firm, meaning, my legs don't shake or wiggle around. You ever see some guys were they can't handle the weight and they start kickin their feet up? Feet gotta stay planted. Your grip sounds good and I think it's preference. As long as your grip isn't too wide. I actually put my pinky's just inside the ring.

I know that pl's use a different approach to heavy bench. How they plant their feet and make sure they have a good arch in their back. For me, I can't have any arch in my back. None. My back is completely flat on the bench throughout my entire set. And I actually flex my core when driving the weight (pushing). Everything is controlled and steady. I do the same as you, I lower the weight nice and slow and once the bar taps my chest I'm goin back up. And yes, shoulders should be rolled back. You got it man. Just find that comfert zone and you'll be pilin the weight on.

[Killer]

I would put heavy dips (esp with big ROM) in the same category as behind the neck press - why? Much safer exercises.

[xtinct]

Can you post the details of the rep program? Another 25 lbs would put my bench right where I want it.

[Swole_2112]

I've got to say that I must be very fortunate in my experience with weighted dips. Even though that everybody here has mentioned what a shoulder hazard they are, of all chest movements I have done, it is the one that I have been able to rely on without any shoulder pain. Though, after benching for the only the second time in six weeks, my shoulder was beginning to give me trouble again. My shoulders seem to agree with dips much more so than bench press.

[silver_shadow]

i have a theory about that - it may be that whatever way you do dips (and the fact that dip bars vary slightly) v/s your bench form is more friendly towards your shoulders.

simply put, your bench form may be something that you need to modify so you put less stress on your shoulders.

do you find any shoulder pain with other kinds of presses - incline/OHPs (strict/in front of the neck PPs/BTN PPs)?

[G-REX]

5'10", muscular/athletic build, average length arms for my height

I place my middle finger on the ring. I put a slight arch in my back so that only my shoulder blades and ass are touching the bench. While keeping my arms straight, I pull my shoulders back then lift the weight off the rack by bringing my shoulders forward.

I bring the weight down slowly. I feel as if I go any faster, I'll snap my right bicep. Once I touch my chest, I press, making sure to keep the arch in my back. Once my arms are fully extended, I rack the weight. That's pretty much it.

Do you think your method could integrate well into the Bill Starr 5X5? That's what I'm running right now.Could if you're willing to do the rep work first then drop the reps down and do your 5x5. The 5x5 weight is going to drop a bit, bu within several weeks you'll catch up and then pass what you were doing before.


Can you post the details of the rep program? Another 25 lbs would put my bench right where I want it.Sure, here you go:

This is a percentage based program. To get your starting percentage you need to know what your current one rep max on the bench is. Once you know that, add 25 lbs to the number. For example, if your current one rep max is 405, the number you figure your percentages off of would be 430.

Weeks 1-3 are the muscular endurance phase, reps are high, volume is high. There are no work ups and the assistance work is based around volume.
Week 1: 50% x 3 sets x 12 reps ( Dumbell Skullcrushers: 5 sets x 12 reps)
Week 2: 55% x 4 sets x 11 reps ( Dumbell Skullcrushers: 6 sets x 10 reps)
Week 3: 60% x 4 sets x 10 reps ( Dumbell SKullcrushers: 7 sets x 8 reps)

Week 4-8 is a transitory phase, you can put on some mass here if your nutrition is right. There will be small work ups here, but nothing you shouldn't be able to handle. At the end of this phase is a deload week, if you're feeling beat up in the shoulders or pecs, take the deload. If you feel good and your not having any discomfort, you can skip it if you like.
Week 4: 65% x 4 sets x 9 reps/ 75% x 5 reps (Close Grip Barbell Extensions to the Chin: 4 sets x 10 reps)
Week 5: 70% x 5 sets x 8 reps/ 80% x 4 reps (Close Grip Barbell Extensions to the Chin: 5 sets x 8 reps)
Week 6: 75% x 4 sets x 7 reps/ 85% x 3 reps (Close Grip Barbell Extensions to the Chin: 6 sets x 6 reps)
Week 7: (DELOAD-Optional) 60% x 3 sets x 5 reps/ No work up (Tricep Extenisons:3 sets x 20+ reps)

Strength Phase: This is the strength phase, this is where the weight gets heavy and the reps drop, this is where you may or may start to miss lifts. IF possible have a spotter. To do the reps and weights at this stage I usually have to get a little psyched up for each set. There is a deload phase in the middle of this section, I don't care how your feeling at this point, you need to take the deload here. Your body is about to handle heavy poundages for several weeks and will need a break to endure it.

Week 8: 80% x 5 reps x 5 sets/ 85% x 2 reps x 2 sets (Dumbell Skullcrushers: 6 sets x 10 reps)
Week 9: 85% x 4 reps x 4 sets/ 90% x 2 reps x 1 set ( Dumbell Skullcrushers: 7 sets x 8 reps)
Week 10: 90% x 3 reps x 3 sets/ 95% x 1 rep ( Dumbell SKullcrushers: 8 sets x 6 reps)
Week 11:MANDATORY DELOAD / 70% x 3 sets x 5 reps (Tricep Extensions: 2-3 sets x 20+ reps)
Week 12: 90% x 2 reps x 3 sets/ 95% x 1 rep x 2 sets (Barbell Extensions to the Chin: 5 sets x 8 reps)
Week 13: 95% x 1 reps x 3 sets / No work up (Barbell Extensions to the Chin: 6 sets x 6 reps)
Week 14: 100% x 1 New pr
This is the basics. When working up to your working percentages, just do what ever rep range you feel is going to get you warmed up enough to handle the load but not so much that it's going to fatigue you for your heavy sets. This program works great for a wide variety of lifters, let me know how you like it!

[Swole_2112]

i have a theory about that - it may be that whatever way you do dips (and the fact that dip bars vary slightly) v/s your bench form is more friendly towards your shoulders.

simply put, your bench form may be something that you need to modify so you put less stress on your shoulders.

do you find any shoulder pain with other kinds of presses - incline/OHPs (strict/in front of the neck PPs/BTN PPs)?

My shoulder doesn't like incline presses and OHP are why my shoulders are like this in the first place.

[methyl mike]

Sorry Killer but dips and my shoulders are a match made in heaven. Dunno why. Incline barbell pain has vanished since I dropped all flat work in favor of decline db dips and pec deck. Some incline db. Dips are great. I stick with 15-20 reps but still, they're great. Dunno about going down to 5 reps max, I don't see that working as it's such an awkward exercise, you'd burn a lot of energy just getting the weights put together, hoisting yourself up etc. I don't think dips are purpose perfect for that rep range.

[silver_shadow]

looks like you would be better served by getting in some rest/rehab for your shoulders before you embark on a routine to improve your FB.

i think i was wrong about your flat bench form - it sounds more like your OHP/incline bench form fucked up your shoulders.