CONTEST PREP PROGRESS

[DREXX]

I have finished my third week of contest prep and it seems like I am on track now.

9 weeks left and I have a lot of work to do but I know I can do it...

First number is before and the second number is now (3 weeks later)

Weight___192.0 *** 192.5
Bodyfat___12.01% *** 9.73%
LBM___168.94 *** 173.77
FAT___23.05 *** 18.73

That means

1) I weigh 0.5lbs more and my bodyfat is 2.28% less
2) I gained 4.83 lbs of LBM
3) I have lost 4.32 lbs of FAT

If it's not hard it's not worth doing...

[Decaman]

This is using the second diet you proposed?

http://216.85.237.147/dman/dman.jpg

I AM THE NEW PANTY RAIDER!

[Pharm Animal]

i like it...very nice results!!!

keep it up, my man /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

take care,
PA

[Scsufootball84]

Nice job Drexx!
Keep up the good work!

Scsufootball84

[DREXX]

I have been following the new diet for the last week and lost about 1% in the last week.

The 2 weeks before that it was a Keto diet and I think the problem was my calories where to high.

Also I now do cardio on a recombant bike at home. I burn less calories on this than on the eliptical trainer at the gym.

It doesn's matter though I just need to figure my new calories. I really like the bike at home and feel it was worth the 500$ investment.

If it's not hard it's not worth doing...

[1rm]

sounds like you've ironed things out!!! way to go. keep us posted!!

[Decaman]

Btw drexx, great progress! You lifting at night or during the day?

http://216.85.237.147/dman/dman.jpg

I AM THE NEW PANTY RAIDER!

[DREXX]

D-Man:

I work for a call center and follow shift rotations.

This week I work 7:30 - 3:30 ...

I do 30min of Cardio at 5:15 am before work

After work I train

Before my last meal I do 30min cardio again.

If I work 4 to 12

I do 60min of Cardio in the morning
Eat a meal
Go to the gym

It depends on my schedule.

I prefer training during the day because my gym is crazy full between 4pm and 8pm

If it's not hard it's not worth doing...

[Decaman]

I didnt ask for a particular reason i was just curious, it looks good!

http://216.85.237.147/dman/dman.jpg

I AM THE NEW PANTY RAIDER!

[MUSTANG_18]

Great results Bro! Keep up the great work /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M18

[Pharm Animal]

DREXX....you still with us? LOL /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

take care,
PA

[DREXX]

I am ashamed and hiding /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

This week didn't go to good.

I only lost 0.08% bodyfat and I lost little muscle as well.

I attribute this to 3 things...

1- I was using T3 for 2 weeks prior at 25mcg and this last week I stopped it. So there maybe a little rebound

2- My test bottle was underfilled by 1.3ml so I didn't take 1000mg of test only about 750mg

3- I went with my fiance to a pub for her college graduation and I drank 2 beers and had some pizza afterwards. (We only do this like once or twice a year so it won't happen again)

I am sorry to say I am now 190.5 @ 9.65%

I did up protein and lower carbs and fat some more. Things seem better now. I already lost about 2lbs in the last 2-3 days.

Next week I will add in some interval training in my cardio routine.

If it's not hard it's not worth doing...

[Pharm Animal]

your mistake #3 was the biggest one...

don't cheat EVER again, at least till after the show....and if you think cheating sometimes is worth it, think about how you will feel on contest day when you look around and everyone is tighter than you....will you think back to the day you cheated? YOU BET YOUR ASS YOU WILL!!

keep the head screwed on tightly and get some tunnel vision.....it's crunchtime, and we want to blow some judges back in their seats....there is still time enough for us to accomplish this.

question....how is your water intake? what other beverages are you consuming? right now till the end of the show, you should olny be drinking water and herbal teas with no sweetener....with the exception of stevia powder....

be strict, you'll be glad you did it the right way...now forget about last week, because it is GONE!

go do it

take care,
PA

[Decaman]

Ahhhh, pharm animal is right. It's done , don't do it again, beating yourself up will do no good. I think the adjustment in ratios is going to help you, how many calories are you consuming now? I also think the interval training will be a major plus, windsprints for one are awesome. Eventhough you only decreased a minimal amount, YOU STILL DECREASED! Look at the positive , the hell with the negative - can't change it. We're all pulling for you bro!.

http://216.85.237.147/dman/dman.jpg

DECA- IT'S WHATS FOR DINNER!

[DREXX]

I have a question for you guys.

Do you think it would be beneficial to up calories for one day per week to increase my metabolic rate?

Nothing drastic! Something like 3500cals with 30% Protein and 70% Carbs with as little fat as possible.
I don't want to do this because I feel the need to cheat. I am just wondering if it would help my progress by increasing my metabolism and carbing my muscles up.

I am on a limited time frame. I was 190.5lbs @ 9.65% 8 weeks out so I don't have time to lose.

Should I skip the carb up day?

So I have to lose about 13.07lbs of fat in 8 weeks. That is 1.63lbs per week.

Do you guys think I can still make it?

I drink as much water as I can. I would estimate around 4 liters per day.

I may have a coffee and a diet coke per day as well.

This week my diet looks like this...

Calories 2031
Protein 285
Carbs 121
Fats 45

Regular Meal - 330 cals 48g Pro, 19g Carbs, 7g Fats
Last Meal - 320 cals 52g Pro, 12g Carbs, 7g Fats
Post Workout Meal - 408 cals 50g Pro, 46g Carbs, 3g Fats

Cardio is 60min per day 6 times per week on an empty stomach. Leg day I do only 30 min of Cardio a couple hours after the leg training.

What can I change to accelerate fat loss?

I have some clen tabs I was saving for the end. Should I take them now and buy more?

I have never taken clen. I am taking ECA stack 3 times per day now plus a dose of 15mg of Yohimbine and 200mg of Caffeine in the am before cardio.

If it's not hard it's not worth doing...

[Decaman]

Bro at your weight you can eat more than that in my opinion, i would say at least 2300 calories even as high as 2500. I think your metabolism has slowed and that may be part of the problem. I think a carb up day would be most beneficial , however i wouldnt exceed 2500-2700 calories, and i might rethink in 5 weeks, maybe cut it out then as the show approaches depending on your progress. You may benefit greatly from it. The 30-70 ratio looks ok. I would also go fat free that day if i could, or as litttle as possible. In addition i don't know when or how your eating , but i would cut the carbs out completely around 5 pm, except if your training after that time in which case it would be ok. Another thing I have noticed that gave me trouble last year was excessive protein at bedtime, i now limit it to 20-25 grams. Again I dont know what your diet looks like I am just telling you whats working for me as I have rapidly gotten to 8% or maybe even less now( I will be measuring soon) In a little over 4 weeks, down from at least 11 or so. You really should eat more fat than that also , it will help preserve muscle and the protein can be higher closer to 300 in my opinion. The carbs your ok on, i am eating alittle more than that on training days. By all means take the clen, it will be of benefit at this time, email me about it - I have something i would like to discuss with you.

http://216.85.237.147/dman/dman.jpg

DECA- IT'S WHATS FOR DINNER!

[archive_Iron God]

YOu could probably get away with 3000-3200 if you break it up into 10 meals also up your fat. Try using natural peanut butter (Crazy Richards brand.

This is tough not what you look like, take some some picks hitting your madatories and post them up.

IG

[archive_Iron God]

Also what are your sources for the carbs?

[DREXX]

My metabolism is out of whack!

I know usually I could eat more but now my metabolism is so slow that I must take drastic measures to lose fat.

I think the carbup on Saturday would be a good idea and my rev up my metabolism.

On my last bulk cycle I was eating a little over 4000cals and not gaining fat... Know my resting metabolism is like 2300 cals /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Last year I got to 5% bodyfat eating 2700-2800cals per day on a keto diet.

I do cut the carbs out from my last meal but I think I will start cutting it out of the last 2 meals.

Also it may be a good idea to increase meals from 6 to 7

Iron God: I feel I look like shit!

I am my biggest critic. I feel I look fatter than 9.65%.

Just to give you an idea at 5% at my last contest I was far from ready. My quads weren't cut at all. Upper body was nice but legs weren't close to being ready.

I don't really feel like posting pics now. I may post some in 3-4 weeks and ask you guys if I should keep going or give up the contest prep...

Carb sources:

Breakfast -> 2 slices of Whole Wheat Bread plus carbs from cottage chees
Lunch -> Potatoes only 80g
Supper -> Potatoes only 80g (may change for brocoli)
Other meals -> Carbs from regular protein powder
Post workout -> Dextrose

If it's not hard it's not worth doing...

[Decaman]

You could do better with some oatmeal instead of the bread, the potatoes are yams? I like brown rice. If i am not mistaken regular potatoes are alot higher on the G I list, i could be wrong on that though.

http://216.85.237.147/dman/dman.jpg

DECA- IT'S WHATS FOR DINNER!

[archive_Iron God]

Stick with low glycemic carbs (yams,oatmeal,brown rice) and up the grams.If you look like crap it's because your carb depleted (which is not a bad thing)try doing a 2 high carb days in a row to see if you fill out then go back down to low carbs.

Also try doing a spoon of NATURAL PB between your meals for a week see if that gives you a slight boost.

DO NOT go to brocoli or greens as carbs yet. And get all your carbs from real food, shakes should consist of whey and PB and yams. NO MRPs

At each meal make sure to take in some protein carbs and fat.

Don't cut your calories if you feel your not making progress up your cardio.

Also keep a very exact log of what you eat and measure everthing out

You still got plenty of time relax and keep plugging away you will be fine.

As for your legs Did you keep them elevated the night before and during the event? Did you water deplete?Did you cease training them 10 days out? At 5% I don't think it was a fat issue more likely you were holding water.


IG

[Pharm Animal]

decaman and irongod are dead on concerning your carbs. dextrose??... cottage cheese?!?.... BREAD??? get that fucking shit out of your diet NOW! you'll be amazed at how well you tighten up after your carb sources are correct...irongod's suggestions are awesome concerning carb sources, and i totally agree with him: whole food sources are the way to go, and use all low GI foods (replace potatoes with sweet potatoes)

"Protein 285"

is that a typo? this is way too little protein if your carbs and fat grams are low too....you need at least 100 more grams of protein a day if you're going to keep any muscle for contest time.

I'LL POST AFTER WORKS SOME MORE!! right now i have to get my ass to the lab....

take care,
PA

[DREXX]

I will replace the whole wheat bread with oatmeal.

I will change the potatoes for brown rice or yams.

My protein shakes are made from 2 protein powders. One of them is optimum whey and the other is a whey&egg formula.

The whey & egg formula has lots of carbs. For every 17g of Protein there is 8g Carbs. I am using it because it has casein in it and goes great to the whey.

I will run out of whey & egg in 2 weeks and then I will stick to my whey only. This will lower carbs from shakes.

My fat comes from 1 egg yolk and about 20-30ml of Flax seed oil per day.

Each meal does contain pros/carbs/fats

Iron God: My legs may have been due to water retention since last year I wasn't usig a diuretic besides dandelion.

I stopped training legs atleast 7-8 days before the contest. Also last year I had no anti-e's


Pharm Animal:

You don't think dextrose should be used after training to give an insulin spike and replenish muscle glycogen?

What should instead after training?

I though Cottage Cheese was great providing 15g Pro and 6g Carbs with little fat. Why should I cut it out?

I will also have to up the protein /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Can any of you post a sample precontest diet that I can play with????

I will revamp my diet and post it here for critic later today.

THANKS FOR EVERYTHING GUYS!

If it's not hard it's not worth doing...

[ontariowrestler]

If I remember correctly, 2/3's of your fuel when at rest is from fat. It gets broken down into fatty acids and glycerol. Normally both would mostly be used as fuel, but by eating low carbs, the glycerol will be converted to glycogen and used to replenish the muscles, allowing your body to burn off more fat. If you don't take a high glycemic meal after working out, replenishing glycogen will take longer, but more of it will come from fat stores. Don't forget that with a high protein meal you will raise insulin levels, according to the insulin index, so you will still be transporting the amino acids to your muscles. I only wish they would have tested whey protein.

[This message was edited by ontariowrestler on 04-13-2001 at 06:25 PM.]

[Decaman]

SO what are we concluding is best for post workout carbs, or are we saying use fat instead of carbs post workout? Or both? I am reading what iron god has up there concerning shakes( i agree) and drexx's post workout shake is a great deal of his carbs for the day ( i estimate 33%). So what would be ideal , I am stumped on that also. I too use simple sugars post workout, usually ultra fuel. Would 44 grams whey a 100grams of yams and 2 tablespoons of natural peanut butter or flax be an ideal shake? Drexx the cottage cheese is still dairy and i am sure it is loaded with sodium, not good in my opinion- and the whole wheat bread i am sure you know is still a refined food, better than white but bread is bread. I would think a 50(p)-25(c)-25(f) ratio would be appropriate for a precontest diet, however i do not compete and i could be off there. I also can't give you an accurate estimate of total calories for the day, but as has been stated and your aware of you were way too low. I am with pharm animal on your protein, however i would up my fat also, so maybe 380 on the protein is high, maybe not- you'll have to play with that. Certainly don't be under 1.75 grams per pound of bodyweight, so at 190 which i think you are you'll need at least 330grams. I would also like to see what you guys recomend for the carb up day in reference to those ratios, i liked his idea of 30-70 with little to no fat- opinions please. It's nice to see people who understand the imporance of the proper diet, Iron god your knowledge of diet is quite impressive as is yours pharm animal, i look foward to reading your responses here.

http://216.85.237.147/dman/dman.jpg

DECA- IT'S WHATS FOR DINNER!

[Pharm Animal]

here is a sample diet and training schedule, similar to what i used last time, maybe 3-8 weeks out. it was very simple, but extremely hard dieting

cardio

#1
eggwhites w/ 2 yolks
oats

#2
chicken breast
small sweet potato

#3
tuna salad:
tuna
as much lettuce as i wanted
pepper and balsalmic vinegar (no calorie)

#4
repeat #2

training session

#5
repeat #2

#6
steak
broccoli

#7
repeat #2

#8
egg whites

the protein was set at 400 grams a day and carbs fluctuated between 50 and 250 grams a day. i used a carb cycling diet, 2-3 low days, and 1-2 high days, going by feel the whole time. fats were minimized, execpt for the 2 yolks in the first meal; they were a mainstay until the last week

my post workout meal always contained a small sweet potato, even on low carb days. water was at least 2 gallons a day. i'ma big water believer, and i truly believe it will assist you in getting leaner. the body must process water, so just drinking water takes up calories and raises your BMR, albeit slightly

take care,
PA

[Pharm Animal]

i exclude all dairy the minute i decide to do a precontest diet. there is something wrong with those foods when trying to get lean. it makes shedding fat harder for some reason...why, i don't know. maybe it has something to do with milk being a food product for growing infants....there may be many undiscovered things that could be in dairy products that prevent lipolysis....think about it:

if babies were supposed to get leaner from the time they come out of the womb till they are weaned off of milk, why do all of them get FATTER and BIGGER after birth? milk is designed my mother nature to be anabolic for infants....because we all know that weight gain from the time of birth to the point in which a child comes off of milk is critical for the baby's health.

in a nutshell, that's why i don't consume dairy products during contest prep diets.

take care,
PA

[Decaman]

Excellent, simple and CLEAN! I agree dairy is a complete no no, whatever your reasoning is. I have always maintained a strong stance against it while trying to shed as much fat as possible, it promotes a smoother look to he body. Cycling carbohydrates can be very effective and is necessary if you will be going low fat which this particular diet is. Some will be able to use whey shakes up to the very end and do much better on all whole food, some wont, again you will just have to test the waters. This is a great post, for once it isn't all about the drugs.

http://216.85.237.147/dman/dman.jpg

DECA- IT'S WHATS FOR DINNER!

[Decaman]

Here is something i might use- again I am not a competitive bodybuilder, but I have gotten down to 6% or even slightly below- it is no easy feat, still however i lack the necessary experience of getting on a stage and being completely evaluated and obviously i would make the necessary adjustments the last few weeks or week before the show.

meal 1-
10 whites 2 yolks( with trivial amount diced peppers and onions)
1/2 cup of oats( some protein powder sprinkled on top especially on cardio days)

meal 2-
44 grams 100%whey
1/2 cup of brown rice or oats
1 tablespoon flax or 2 tablespoons natural peanut butter

meal 3 6-8 ounces chicken breast or 1 1/2 cans of lo sodium tuna rinsed
small yam
1 cup of broccoli ( i dont seem to have any trouble with green veggies)

meal 4
44 grams of 100% whey
1 tablespoon flax or 2 tablespoons natural peanut butter

training

meal 5 post workout

44 grams of whey
50-70 grams of simple sugars( although this looks like it may be a bad idea after talking with you guys)

meal 6
6-8 ounces fish(tuna steak, flounder, etc)or 6 ounces lean red meat( eye round london broil)
1 cup of broccoli
( i dont like to take in carbs here because i eat dinner close to 9 o clock some nights and feel it is too late)

meal 7
12 egg whites or 25 grams whey
1 tablespoon flax or
2 tablespoons natural peanut butter
( more likely the flax)

My protein is close to 325 grams , but my fat is also alot higher than p- animals on this diet. Carbs remain around 150-160, a carb up day of double that with a reduction in fat and protein can be used when the body tells you it needs it. I will drink at least 1 1/2 gallons of water a day. I will also use a multi vitamin( goes without saying)but while dieting i will have it twice once at breakfast and once at lunch) I also will supp with glutamine. One thing i have been meaning to add is anti- oxidants through out the day , but i havent yet. Seeing as i am not competing i may have sugar free jello once in awhile for sanity heh heh.

http://216.85.237.147/dman/dman.jpg

DECA- IT'S WHATS FOR DINNER!

[This message was edited by Decaman on 04-14-2001 at 01:18 AM.]

[This message was edited by Decaman on 04-14-2001 at 01:20 AM.]

[Pharm Animal]

this definately is a great post. this is what separates this board from that other one....this topic would have been archived or deleted on ************ a long time ago!

keep this post rolling, guys

take care,
PA

[ontariowrestler]

Well alot of studies have been done on recovery post workout. Most of them concentrated on what was the best amount of simple carbs to take. This was tunnelvision. Most researchers looked at insulin's role in lowering blood sugar as the way to spike insulin, they did not look at it's other role of transporting amino acids into muscle cells. Yes, you can spike your insulin with high quality protein. How high is unknown, as the only foods tested were fish and beef and they are comparable to Honeysmacks, whole grain bread or popcorn. I would think something as highly processed and biologically available as whey protein would cause a much higher spike than fish.

One important step to stop muscle catabolism is getting amino acids to the muscles to build cellular catalysts. Their rate of depletion is directly related to the amount and duration of cellular work performed. If catalysts are depleted, replenishment takes precedence over everything, and breakdown of muscle tissue occurs to provide the necessary amino acids.

The other important step is having enough glycogen stores to prevent gluconeogenesis. I would expect though, that on a high protein, low carb diet, energy would be provided from unused proteins being deaminated. As long as you are not doing marathon workouts, and high impact cardio, you should be ok. If you have your protein shake after working out, before cardio, you are providing the amino acids necessary to quickly rebuild catalysts and the low impact cardio will burn fatty acids, leaving glycerol available to be taken up by the muscles as glycogen. This process will continue after cardio, as I said before, I think 2/3 of the energy used at rest is from fatty acids.

For information, milk products may be somewhat low on the glycemic index, but are high on the insulin index.

I eat whole grain bread. The important thing is to find one that uses the whole grain, 99% don't. Dempster's makes a good whole grain bread. Country Harvest claims to make oat bran bread, but the first ingredient listed is enriched white flour.

I am curious if anyone has tried calorie cycling to keep their BMR from dropping while dieting.

[Pharm Animal]

good info OW....nice to see you're still hangin' around!

take care,
PA

[Decaman]

It is good info, i am not sure i grasp it all though. What are we saying is ideal for postworkout, especially for the dieting bodybuilder. Are the simple sugars detrimental in anyway? I've decided to stick with them for now. Put up the revised diet drexx so we can take a look at it

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DECA- IT'S WHATS FOR DINNER!

[archive_TonyDelk]

Sure you can take simple sugars after your training session provided you are already somewhat depleted and are using glucose disposal agents to help with insulin sensitivity and glycogen supercompensation.

Try Alpha Lipoic Acid at about 600mgs, Arginine at 2gms, 1gm of Taurine and maybe some Creatine and Magnesium thrown in. Take them with your post workout shake and make sure your carb source is liquid.

You'll be in business.

TD

[Pharm Animal]

i'd advise against post workout simple sugars 6-8 weeks prior to a show to the contest date. i simply eliminate anything that may cause lipolysis inhibition. if you need carbs after a workout, what's wrong with a slow release low GI food like sweet potatoes? the last thing you need is a bunch of simple sugars flooding your bloodstream while you're trying to diet away your fat stores. post workout carbs are VERY necessary to a bodybuilder trying to grow the quickest....but at 6 weeks out, you're main concern is trying to shed as much fat as possible, and just maintain muscle mass.

i feel that extra carbs, no matter when you get them, interfere with lipolysis.

take care,
PA

[Fonz]

Why not incorporate a low-dosage DNP cycle
into your pre-contest diet to make up for
lost time?
Also, both PA and Tony Delk are correct in some
way. ALA is a VERY, VERY good supplement
to take to increase glucose up-take into the
muscles. It eliminates the need for
a high GI-carb(dextrose), in order to raise insulin levels
to shuttle nutrients into the muscle-cells post
workout. 600-1000mg/day would be optimum.
(taken with meals).

Godspeed

[Decaman]

P.A. you point is well taken, it doesnt seem to be interfering with my progress, then again i am don't need to go where he is going. But for drexx 6-8 ounces of sweet potatoes would be better than dextrose I would agree. Fonz's idea is a good one also, i don't have any experience with dnp, but from what i hear it works the quickest.

http://216.85.237.147/dman/dman.jpg

DECA- IT'S WHATS FOR DINNER!

[DREXX]

Hey guys,

Just wanted to let you know I have been reading all your replies. They all contain some very useful info.

I don't post much lately because I am very busy but I do take the time to read your well thought out replies.

This week I am 188.5lbs and 8.73% bodyfat so it is going down. It went down 0.92% this week which is nice /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I am 7 weeks out and have a ton of work to do. I still have about 11.15lbs of Fat to lose.

I will post my new diet latter on after training.

I just came back from the grocery store and bought some brown rice and sweet potatoes.

I also bought some whole wheat pasta. Is that any good or should I stay away from that as well?

Thanks again guys!!!

If it's not hard it's not worth doing...

[archive_Iron God]

NO wheat anything.

Heres your carb menu

1 Yams
2 Brown Rice
3 Oatmeal

Enjoy /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

IG

[Fukkenshredded]

I agree with the sweet potatoes and brown rice, but I have never liked what oatmeal did to me. It always seems to make me smoother looking. Maybe all that water? I just use sweet potatoes all the way when ripping out. Another thing you might want to look into is vanadyl sulfate. In larger doses it seems to assist vascularity and hardness. Glucophage can be utilized as a dispersal agent if you must have something that drastic, but I am not a big fan of that approach. A simpler addition to your sugars is cinnamon. Also, oleoresin of capsicum, which is found in hot peppers, works. Try serranos if you can handle them. I eat them on just about everything because I like the taste. As you know, protien is better absorbed in the presence of sugar, and I think there is too much paranoia about carbs in general. Total calories is the primary issue when looking for fat loss. Everything else is a way to fool the body's perception of caloric intake. Even chitosan has its place in such an approach...it can assist the dieter in handling the hunger.

[ontariowrestler]

Why/how is protein better absorbed in the presence of sugar?

[archive_TonyDelk]

PA, glycogen resynthase is highest during two times.

A)Right after a taxing glycogen depleting workout.
B)in an already somewhat glycogen depleted state.

If you shuttle carbs that are "quickest" absorbed(simple sugars) by the muscles that are directly needing, there is no risk of inhibiting lipolysis. Of course too much will make you lipogenic and not lipolytic, but this is more in time intervals and not amounts(carbs) immediately post workout.

I don't have the papers in front of me, but I have seen research where lipolysis is actually potentiated by carbohydrates when metabolism is already lowered(such as in a carb/insulin depleted state). The reason for this being that the body increases metabolic rate to oxidate the carbs/sugar because it truly doesn't understand what to do with them not recognizing them as it's primary fuel substrate.

I guess in a nutshell when you're dieting and your body is functioning off of higher protein, EFA's and small amounts of low glycemic carbs it gets greatly efficient at burning fat as it's primary fuel source. Ketones or not, it usually will get enough sugar from Protein(glucogeonesis)and the small amounts of carbs to assist the organs that need glucose for fuel. In the presence of higher amounts of glucose it senses the excess as unneeded and quickly acts to "burn" them off, thereby increasing BMR short term.

Enough biochem today. You definitely can use simple sugars immediately post workout(liquid)in a dieting state. Just make sure you don't overconsume, and that you are already somewhat depleted beforehand. Makes a great case for shuffling days of low and no carbs between workouts.

TD

[Decaman]

Ahhhh, but the question is which is better, the simple sugars or the sweet potato for instance. ANd what amount gram wise. I mean 50 sounds like a good number not to low not too high. This again is another reaosn I don't take in carbs pre workout, i will only take in protein and fat(flax) because i will take them in post workout.

http://216.85.237.147/dman/dman.jpg

DECA- IT'S WHATS FOR DINNER!

[archive_TonyDelk]

You're body recognizes a carb as a carb especially in a depleted situation. It is going to be stored as glycogen regardless of how quickly it burns.

Essentially if your body is an extremely depleted state(glycogen wise)the quicker the carbs can be absorbed/utilized the more storage you will have without spillage.(ie eating too many carbs and them being converted to triglyceride--lipogenesis)

I have experimented with 150gms of carbs(both high GI and low GI) postworkout with ample glucose disposal agents and have not been effected either way.

Your body will become very adept at storing the extra carbs as glycogen for needed future workouts. It will also help to prevent that dry/flat/dehydrated look you get in your bigger muscles when dieting.(pecs, bicep peak and shoulder girdle area). Trust me, this is a welcome boost psychologically speaking when dieting and losing bodyweight.

TD

[Decaman]

Good info T.D., 150 post workout is a bit much in my opinion, if it worked for you thats a bonus for sure, i know my body wouldnt work for me. Matter of fact thats my daily intake at this point.

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DECA- IT'S WHATS FOR DINNER!

[archive_TonyDelk]

Trace carbs with the rest of your meals that day. Meaning if you're eating low GI carbs like lettuce, green beans, broccoli etc...I'd be willing to bet your body would let you get away with it.

Now if you're eating brown rice, yams etc during the day with your meals, then I'd say 150 is a bit much as well. Cycling your carbs IMO is best. Meaning if your going to eat carbs with your meals, do that one day and the next don't. Keep your metabolism guessing.

TD

[DREXX]

My New Diet :

Meal 1: Cals=344 Pro=48 Carbs=20 Fats=8
1 Whole Egg
1.5 cups of Egg whites
1/3 cup of Oats

Meal 2: Cals=303 Pro=46 Carbs=14 Fats=7
Protein Shake (blend of Whey and Casein)
1 tsp Flax Seed Oil

Meal 3: Cals=306 Pro=43 Carbs=21 Fats=6
1.5 cans of Tuna
3oz Sweet Potatoes
1 tsp Safflower Oil

Meal 4: Cals=303 Pro=46 Carbs=14 Fats=7
Protein Shake (blend of Whey and Casein)
1 tsp Flax Seed Oil

Meal 5: Cals=315 Pro=44 Carbs=20 Fats=7
6oz Chicken Breast
3oz Brown Rice

Meal 6: Cals=303 Pro=46 Carbs=14 Fats=7
Protein Shake (blend of Whey and Casein)
1 tsp Flax Seed Oil

Meal 7: Cals=294 Pro=48 Carbs=10 Fats=7
Protein Shake (blend of Whey and Casein but more Whey than Casein)
1 tsp Flax Seed Oil

TOTAL CALS = 2167 / PROTS = 319 / CARBS = 112 / FATS = 49

If it's not hard it's not worth doing...

[Decaman]

It looks good, i still think you could eat more, but its your body and you know your metabolism. I like the lower carbs, i am going that route also- 150 is too much at this stage. Which is your post workout meal?

http://216.85.237.147/dman/dman.jpg

DECA- IT'S WHATS FOR DINNER!

[Decaman]

I agree T.D., guessing is trhe way to go, dont let the body get too used to one routine.

http://216.85.237.147/dman/dman.jpg

DECA- IT'S WHATS FOR DINNER!

[Pharm Animal]

i understand what you're saying, and you're correct. glucose molecules, no matter what the source, are rocognized and processed as the same molecule in a depleted state. however, the satiety factor sneaks in during precontest dieting and training. during a precontest postworkout meal, what is more appetizing and satisfying, a carb drink or a sweet potato? i guarantee you i would pick the sweet potato each and every time, and i'm willing to bet most others 3-4 weeks out from a show would too. good info guys!

take care,
PA

[archive_Iron God]

When you carb deplete remember to raise your fats to like 80-100grms per day

[Decaman]

VEry good point Iron God, i was just thinking of that. When we say deplete I would assume you mean his very low carb days say if he goes to just veggies or maybe just oats in the morning, thats how i would normally do it. I agree with P.A. i had a sweet potato yeterday after workout, very satisfying.

http://216.85.237.147/dman/dman.jpg

DECA- IT'S WHATS FOR DINNER!

[ontariowrestler]

Drexx, when PA sees that diet, I know he will tell you to get rid of all the protein shakes and eat real food. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TD, do you have much info on how low carb diets affect insulin sensitivity and how you can avoid spillover of the high GI carbs to fat.
The other question I had is about workout intensity. Apparently, the more muscle damage done (as measured by Creatine Kinase) the less able muscle is to replenish glycogen. Do you know if this is affected immediately post workout, or does it worsen as time progresses?
There was also a study done that showed that honey (actually powdered honey) was good for a post workout carb source as it maintained more even blood sugar levels for several hours.

[This message was edited by ontariowrestler on 04-18-2001 at 08:08 AM.]

[Pharm Animal]

OW you read my mind....heheheh

i think one shake a day would be okay for now, but at 3 weeks out, i would definately replace it with chicken breast. dieting is a motherfucker, but you always need to remind yourself why you're eating what you're eating.

i always ask myself a little question during the times i really don't want to eat during my diets: "do you want to eat this or show up on contest day not 100% ready?" then i grab my chicken breast and broccoli and shut the fuck up

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

take care,
PA

[archive_TonyDelk]

How would you get the necessary kcals without doing so?

I think a lot of people use too much protein and don't get enough fat(especially essential fats)when dieting thinking that ample protein is the key. I've got news for all of you. Too much protein is readily converted to glucose ie..sugar. Especially when the body is in a glycogen depleted state.

You talk to any advanced "natural" bodybuilder who is able to get their bodyfat sub 5% without drugs or diuretics and they'll tell you consuming enough fat is the key. There are a lot of folks who have a "fat fobia" and just won't eat enough of it. There is no point here to get into a biochemistry lesson about fat/ketone metabolism. Most of the brothers here are knowledgeable enough to understand how and why dieting works.

OW you ask a good question. There is little research as to the answer. In my dieting experiences naturally and based on interacting with a lot of competitive bbuilders(natural), less volume with moderate to high intensity workloads is best for maintaining size without creating damage/catabolic state. I know for a fact that the body adapts to depleting/refilling both liver and muscle glycogen over time. Hence, dieting becomes easier in regard to losing fat and maintaining muscle.(provided you stay within a bodyfat range most of the year)So essentially insulin sensitivity "can" improve provided one doesn't diet constantly/year round.

As to honey providing a more even keel insulin level, I can't comment. I just believe simple sugars or liquid carbs to be best immediately post workout(with glucose disposal agents)for refilling muscle glycogen stores quickly. The further away from a workout, it is imperative you eat more complex/low GI carbs to make sure the body doesn't become lipogenic.

TD

[AJ]

I see what you all listed as carb choices above: Yams, Oatmeal, brown rice... Well do grits work at all in a contest prep?

AJ

[Pharm Animal]

AJ, no.

grits are derived from CORN, and it has a very HIGH glycemic index. stay away from it, not a good precontest carb choice.

DREXX!!!

IT'S 5 WEEKS OUT, WHERE IN THE FUCK ARE YOU HIDING!!! IT'S UPDATE TIME, BABYYYY!!!! don't fucking even tell us you screwed up again on your diet...i'll fucking kick your ass!

PA---> /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif <---DREXX

LOL

take care,
PA

[MT. SIZE]

Morning cardio before 1st meal for 45 min at 60%

Monday thru thursday

Meal 1: 44gram whey protein drink---

meal 2: 6oz chicken--1/2 cup oatmeal

meal 3: can of tuna----1/2 cup lettuce--vinegar

meal 4: 6oz chix---2oz yams

meal 5: can of tuna----1/2 cup lettuce--vinegar

meal 6: 6oz chicken---1/2 bag of brown rice

meal 7: 44gram whey protein drink---

Friday and Saturday same diet but add one more carb meal before meal 5 and tbsp of all natural peanut butter or flak seed oil -----cardio drop to 30 min a day at 75%

Sunday-----meals one through six eat 25-40 grams of carbs(carb up)---No fat or close to none ---No cardio on this day-----Use this day to pose real hard---You should feel good at night so pose hard for 30min -----2 hours before you go to bed----

[DREXX]

5 weeks out....

I am 5'6 186lbs and 7.18% bodyfat.

Over the last 12 days I have lost 3.11lbs of fat and put on 0.63lbs of LBM

I am on track, don't hurt me PA /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If it's not hard it's not worth doing...

[Decaman]

NICE WORK DREXX! This is adhering to the last diet posted above? Are you doing a carb up day?

http://216.85.237.147/dman/dman.jpg

DECA- IT'S WHATS FOR DINNER!

[DREXX]

Do you guys think I am on track?

Is 7.18% 5 weeks out too fat?

If I where to do it again I wouldn't have gotten to 14% offseason. Next time I will put the brakes on at 10% in the offseason.

My diet is like this...

Monday - Keto diet - No training - 2000cals

Tuesday - Keto diet but with 50g of Dextrose right before training - 2100cals

Wednesday - Keto diet - No training - 2000cals

Thursday - Keto diet but with 50g of Dextrose right before training - 2100cals

Friday - Keto diet - No training - 2000cals

Saturday - Carb up (30% Prots with 70% Carbs) Calories 3000cals

Sunday - Keto diet but with 50g of Dextrose right before training - 2100cals

If it's not hard it's not worth doing...

[archive_Iron God]

Your fine, I don't need to tell you the last week is when the miracles happen, just keep plugging away you should be about 5-5.5% going into your last week.

IG

[Pharm Animal]

you really need to get some pics up...then we can assess where you're at and what you could work on. other than that, i'm jealous that keto works so well for some and doesn't do jack shit for me

4% is still totally attainable in 5 weeks /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

take care,
PA

[DREXX]

Hey people,

Here is an update. I am 3 weeks out as of Saturday!

Bodyfat was taken at 5'6" 183.5lbs and 5.66% bodyfat.

Skinfolds are as follows...

Chest = 5mm
Axil = 6mm
Triceps = 6mm
Back = 8.5mm
Abs = 5.5mm
Hips = 3.5mm
Quads = 12mm

As you can see my quads are still as smooth as a baby's butt /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

They are improving though. Keep in mind offseason they where 23mm

I took some polaroid pictures and they came out real dark and bad.
I won't post them because they look like shit.

I can't get my bodyfat done until contest day since me and my training partner
schedules don't coincide so I will have to go by the mirror.

The 5.66% bodyfat is very misleading because I look much softer than that.

Who knows maybe its water retention from the test. I will take all the rest of my
Test enanthate on this comming saturday so it's going to be out of the picture.

I dropped fat calories a litte more and added a little more protein.

Diet is now around 1750cals per day.

I upped cardio by 15min per day also. So now I am doing 2 sessions per day.

First one is 45min in the am and the other is 30min in the pm

Wish me luck!

If it's not hard it's not worth doing...

[Pharm Animal]

LUCK

take care,
PA

[ontariowrestler]

your hard work and dedication will get you to your goal!

Since you can't do the seven site measurement, why don't you do a three site (Jackson and Pollock). It will measure your thighs /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and give an "idea" of bodyfat level. I use the three site as I can't find a workout partner /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif so I have to do all the measurements myself. It has an error rate of less than 1%.

[DREXX]

Yeah I should do the 3 site method that does Abs, Thighs and Chest.

If it's not hard it's not worth doing...

[Fonz]

I have been toying around with low-dosage DNP
spurt cycing to accelerate fat-loss without compromising
training, and I think I may have come with a solution
to get you back on track.

DNP at 3.5mg/Kg increases metabolism by 40%
But hinders training.

DNP at around 2mg/Kg increases metabolism by around
25% and has NO IMPACT ON TRAINING INTENSITY.

You DO NOT SWEAT/FEEL LETHARGIC because DNP
at this dose is remarkably efficient in dispersing the
extra heat throughout your skins surface area.
Water retention is also not a factor.


If you incorporate 200mg DNP/day for 7on/7off you
can lose an extra 1lb fat/week without ANY CHANGE
in your diet.

Best of all it targets your estrogenic fat deposits(legs),
and really helps lean them out. I had the same problems
as you did and used to do Mega-doses of topical
YOH-HCL(150mg/day) w/ aloe,but DNP is far, far
better.(Not to mention cheaper/easier to apply)

To put it into perspective, T3+Clen/ECA increases
metabolism by 15% MAX and is VERY catabolic to
your muscles. DNP at 2mg/Kg increases your
metabolism by 20-25% and is anti-catabolic to boot.

You should look into this approach.

Any comments guys? I seem to be the only one that
uses DNP here.......

Oh, and congrats PA, cool new "corner"(First time
here btw)

Godspeed

[Pharm Animal]

"I have been toying around with low-dosage DNP
spurt cycing to accelerate fat-loss without compromising training...<snip>...DNP at around 2mg/Kg increases metabolism by around
25% and has NO IMPACT ON TRAINING INTENSITY....<snip>" -FONZ

fucking money bro! i can speculate that this theory is definately sound.

...and thank you on your congrats /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

take care,
PA

[ontariowrestler]

I am assuming by "toying around with it" that you have you done it a few times.

I guess we are always looking to take the maximum dose of any drug, 'cause more is better, right (?) and never look at the benefits of taking minimum effective doses and minimizing the sides. Maybe we all secretly yearn to be a Dan Duchaine and break new ground with drug dosages or types.

[DREXX]

Thanks for the info Fonz!

But... If there is one drug DREXX won't touch it's DNP.

Everybody has there limits. Some wont use T3, Insulin or GH but my only limit is DNP.

If it's not hard it's not worth doing...

[DREXX]

Bump this for new members...

Good info, hidding on page 8

Brings back memories.

http://www.************.com/members/drexx/drexxsig.jpg
If it's not hard it's not worth doing...