Usually when someone from Chicago affects an election...

[archive_Ulter]

...it's a mayor fixing votes.
It makes me all warm and fuzzy inside reading this story. It's not the typical Chicago Story in an election year.

CHICAGO - A Chicago Tribune editor who was on the Vietnam mission for which John Kerry (news - web sites) received the Silver Star is backing up Kerry's account of the incident.


William Rood, 61, said he decided to break his silence about the Feb. 28, 1969, mission because reports by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth are incorrect and darken the reputations of veterans who served with Kerry, according to a report in the Tribune's Sunday editions.


Rood, an editor on the Tribune's metropolitan desk, said the allegations that Kerry's accomplishments were overblown are untrue. Kerry came up with an attack strategy that was praised by their superiors, Rood said.


"The critics have taken pains to say they're not trying to cast doubts on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has splashed doubt on all of us," Rood said in a 1,700-word first-person account published in the newspaper. "It's gotten harder and harder for those of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they come from people who were not there."


According to the Tribune, Rood's recollection of what happened that day in South Vietnam was backed by military documents, including his citation for a Bronze Star and a report written by then-Capt. Roy Hoffmann, who commanded his and Kerry's task force and is now a critic of the Democratic candidate.


The mission has become a focal point of a political and media firestorm fueled by the Swift Boat Veterans.


One of the group's leaders, John O'Neill, succeeded Kerry in command of a swift boat. O'Neill is co-author of the book "Unfit for Command," which accuses Kerry of lying about his wartime record and betraying comrades when he returned from Vietnam by alleging widespread atrocities by U.S. troops. The Swift Boat Veterans have repeated the accusations in TV ads.


The Kerry campaign filed a complaint Friday with the Federal Election Commission (news - web sites), alleging the Swift Boat Veterans are coordinating their ads with the Bush campaign. The Bush campaign has denied the claim but refused to condemn the book or the group's TV ads.


Rood wrote that Kerry recently contacted him and other crew members, requesting that they go public with their accounts of what happened that February day.


"I can't pretend those calls (from Kerry) had no effect on me, but that is not why I am writing this," Rood said. "What matters most to me is that this is hurting crewmen who are not public figures and who deserved to be honored for what they did. My intent is to tell the story here and to never again talk publicly about it."


Rood declined requests from a Tribune reporter to be interviewed. The Tribune's deputy managing editor for news, George de Lama, told The Associated Press on Saturday that Rood would not publicly discuss the issue.


When the Tribune asked O'Neill for his response to Rood's account, O'Neill argued that the former swift boat skipper's version of events is not substantially different from what appeared in his book.


A message left with Swift Boat Veterans for Truth was not immediately returned Saturday.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[archive_Mickey]

I think its pretty shitty that Bush and the republicans are resorting to this type of advertising. They say that they dont have anything to do with it but I do not believe that for a nanosecond.

I think this election is going to be very close barring some unforseen change in the coming months.

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[archive_Bjaarki]

Thanks, Ulter.

You know, it's very interesting that there is all this attention on what John Kerry's military record shows, while Bush's military record, if you care to call it that, has disappeared .....

Some people simply have no sense of shame.

[archive_Ulter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> John Kerry has elevated his Vietnam service as the chief reason to vote for him in this election, so is criticism, possibly quite justified, unwarranted?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure it's justified and I would say even welcome, since Kerry doesn't politically screen the people who attend his rallies like Bush does I would say yes, he welcomes criticism. But outright lies told by people who were not even there is not critism is it?

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[archive_Frackal]

That's really the question I think...whether they are outright lies or not. Either way, the entire thing has served to divert most of the attention away from John Kerry's Senate record, which is of greater concern to me personally.

[archive_Ulter]

I couldn't care less about his senate record. I care about Bushies distorting his military record because they are decrediting and hurting people who aren't in politics. Rood is a very honest and popular editor in Chicago. He didn't want to get involved in this fight. And now Bushies have pushed him over the edge. Too bad for them because there are few people in this country with more integrity than Rood has and that 1700 word account in todays Chicago Tribune will be picked up by news outlets across the country. Either THEY are lying or Rood is lying, and THEY weren't there, EOS.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[archive_Bjaarki]

I don't care about Kerry's senate record either, Ulter. I think we should get this campaign focused on the things that really matter, which is all the Bush family has wanted to do all along, ever since GHWB ran back in '88.

Worrying about foreign policy and the state of the economy is all well and good, but what about the really important things. What about a constitutional amendment to ban flag-burning? What about outlawing gay marriage? What about school vouchers so we can send our kids to Andover? What about the terrible capital gains tax burden suffered by all of those patriotic friends of the Bushes who were so busy building our economy that they didn't even have time to serve their country in uniform, though they surely would have done so, with heroism? Poor Dick Cheney! I really feel for him when he has to remember those four deferments he was forced to take. At least GWB was out there on the front lines, defending Texas from Oklahoma!

Good God, man! These are the burning issues of our time !!! Please, Frackal !!! Help us out, here !!!

[archive_Bjaarki]

And while you're helping us get focused on the important things in this election, Frackal, please unpack this statement for us:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Further, this is a guy who has Dean, Gore, and Moore saying all kinds of outlandish things about Bush since forever. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. "This is a guy [Kerry, that is] who has [other people] saying ... things ..." Please indicate your source that these peoples' actions or words were instigated or invited by John Kerry.

2. "... outlandish things ..." Please indicate something any of these guys has said that is factually untrue, much less outlandish.

3. " ... since forever ..." Please indicate what you mean by that? Do you mean since the 6th day of creation, or what?

See, gentlemen ... the problem with a certain element of the political spectrum in this country is that they lie. Just that. They lie. They've been doing it so long that it has become second nature to them, they've discovered Hitler's truth - that if you lie often enough and repeatedly enough about the bigger things, people begin to believe you - so it doesn't matter whether it's about small things (like what happened on a river in the Mekong in Feb '69) or big things (like whether or not Saddam Hussein is an imminent threat to the US). It's all the same to them. They lie. They love it. And we, apparently, love to let them. So we can have someone, even here, just tell another whopper - "Further, this is a guy who has Dean, Gore, and Moore saying all kinds of outlandish things about Bush since forever" - and we're expected to swallow it.

But, I digress. Let's get back to the important stuff on the national agenda, like whether or not Bubba really inhaled that toke or not, or whether Michael Dukakis looks like a dope in a tanker's helmet .....

As I've said before, Frackal, I don't mind getting the government I deserve. I just don't want to get the government you pretty obviously deserve.

Ulter, a word, please. Please forgive me my moment of incivility here. I try more than most to respect that notion of "a civilized discussion" that we all want to project, but some of this shit just burns my butt too much to maintain an even strain. My apologies.

[archive_Frackal]

I see what you're saying Ulter about not hurting those who aren't in politics, but the ironic thing is that many of the swiftvets are probably guys who are still angry about the way they were potrayed by Kerry back when he ran for Congress in the '70's.

I think there is enough evidence on both sides to say that both Kerry and proxy-Bush through Swiftvets are quite possibly guilty of distorting the military record's of others for political gain.


I think Kerry's senate record is the best indicator of what he believes in and what types of things he would support as President, which is why I consider it most important.

[archive_Frackal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bjaarki:
And while you're helping us get focused on the important things in this election, Frackal, please unpack this statement for us:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Further, this is a guy who has Dean, Gore, and Moore saying all kinds of outlandish things about Bush since forever. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. "This is a guy [Kerry, that is] who has [other people] saying ... things ..." Please indicate your source that these peoples' actions or words were instigated or invited by John Kerry.

2. "... outlandish things ..." Please indicate something any of these guys has said that is factually untrue, much less outlandish.

3. " ... since forever ..." Please indicate what you mean by that? Do you mean since the 6th day of creation, or what?

See, gentlemen ... the problem with a certain element of the political spectrum in this country is that _they lie_. Just that. _They lie_. They've been doing it so long that it has become second nature to them, they've discovered Hitler's truth - that if you lie often enough and repeatedly enough about the bigger things, people begin to believe you - so it doesn't matter whether it's about small things (like what happened on a river in the Mekong in Feb '69) or big things (like whether or not Saddam Hussein is an imminent threat to the US). It's all the same to them. They lie. They love it. And we, apparently, love to let them. So we can have someone, even here, just tell another whopper - _"Further, this is a guy who has Dean, Gore, and Moore saying all kinds of outlandish things about Bush since forever" _ - and we're expected to swallow it.

But, I digress. Let's get back to the important stuff on the national agenda, like whether or not Bubba really inhaled that toke or not, or whether Michael Dukakis looks like a dope in a tanker's helmet .....

As I've said before, Frackal, I don't mind getting the government I deserve. I just don't want to get the government _you_ pretty obviously deserve.

Ulter, a word, please. Please forgive me my moment of incivility here. I try more than most to respect that notion of "a civilized discussion" that we all want to project, but some of this shit just burns my butt too much to maintain an even strain. My apologies.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Oh Jeez Bjaark you don't have to get that melodramatic.

I didn't mean "Kerry HAS these guys doing things." As in, Kerry made them do so.

I meant Kerry "has these guys on his team, like Gore, Kennedy, saying outlandish things, so why is it all of a sudden a big upset when someone from the other side starts similar (though much less sensational) accusations?"


Sorry for the confusion there.


Anyway as to your other questions, I'm eager to get to them as soon as I've returned from my day's errands.

Though I don't think I'm part of this vast conspiracy of liars you're referring too. I'm a registered Libertarian. http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://www.anabolicfitness.net/smileys/banana.gif

[archive_Ulter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Poor Dick Cheney! I really feel for him when he has to remember those four deferments he was forced to take. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

5 scholastic and one marriage deferment.

"Any rich white guy who volunteered for a tour in Viet Nam is a man who deserves my respect."
---Chris Rock

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

Frackal:
Are you happy with the current status quo? Yes-then vote Republican

Will you vote for the candidate of the Liberaterian Party if he is on the ballot in your state? Yes- then you just helped maintain the status quo (see above)

Everything else is inconsequential at this point. A viable alternative to the Dem or Rep is not available at this point. Try to start a grassroot movement and work on that in the future. But in 04 it is more important to send the chimp in charge and his right wing, radical maniacs back to their caves where they came from. Or is the liberaterian idea right of center socially and fiscally irresposible as well.
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[This message was edited by Mr. Nobody on 08-22-04 at 06:28 PM.]

[archive_Frackal]

I'm not tremendously happy with Bush, or the status-quo, but I'll probably be voting for him in this election barring something unexpected. Largely because I believe he is the lesser of two unfortunate choices. I'll explain why I've come to this conclusion if anyone is curious.

I'm glad I started visiting the off-topic area here at AF, which I hadn't before. I'm really enjoying hearing the opinions of people I respect who are largely of opposing viewpoints.
(I even like Bjaark http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif )

When I weigh who I'm going to elect, my loyalty is to a certain set of principles and to the country, not to a party. In this case I believe George Bush is the candidate who will better represent those principles.

(Quick Note: I also think many here believe Bush et al. is more corrupt than I do. I know that if I believed this administration was as corrupt as most here seem to, I wouldn't be voting for them either.)

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
In this case I believe George Bush is the candidate who will better represent those principles <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please explain since I was under the impression that the liberaterian model is that of social liberalism with fiscal responsibility. Bush has neither

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[This message was edited by Mr. Nobody on 08-22-04 at 07:01 PM.]

[archive_Bjaarki]

Thanks for the correction, Ulter. I was never anything but 1-A in '69-70. It was my good luck to draw a high number (348; YES!) in the first draft lottery while Nixon was bullshitting everybody with his Peace-With-Honor jazz.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Sorry for the confusion there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What's the confusion, Frackal?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Further, this is a guy who has Dean, Gore, and Moore saying all kinds of outlandish things about Bush since forever. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your intent was clear, Frackal. You were attributing remarks of Dean, Gore and Moore to an incitement by John Kerry. That's what "This guy has Dean, Gore and Moore saying things" means. You uttered a lie, and it was my pleasure to catch you at it. Maybe you're used to talking to stupid, gullible people. We're not stupid and gullible here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I also think many here believe Bush et al. is more corrupt than I do. I know that if I believed this administration was as corrupt as most here seem to, I wouldn't be voting for them either. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've become convinced that Bono captured much of the conservative psyche when he wrote, "The less you know, the more you believe." But I'm an optimist. Belief is sometimes influenced by lack of factual knowledge, and that is a correctable condition. I'll be happy to recommend some reading to correct yours.

In the meantime, please sustain your eagerness to answer the questions I addressed to you. I'm waiting.

[archive_Ulter]

I just read this and cracked up. Had to share.

"Senator Kerry carries shrapnel in his thigh as distinct from President Bush who carries two fillings in his teeth from his service in the Alabama National Guard, which seems to be his only time that he showed up," John Podesta, former chief of staff in the Clinton White House, said on ABC's "This Week."

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[archive_Frackal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Nobody:
[QUOTE]
In this case I believe George Bush is the candidate who will better represent those principles <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please explain since I was under the impression that the liberaterian model is that of social liberalism with fiscal responsibility. Bush has neither

[QUOTE]


That's a good general way to summarize a libertarian's views.

Bush has not been fiscally conservative, but I expect Kerry to be even less so, which is where the unfortunate "lesser of two" choice comes into play. It should be noted though that a good deal of the expenditures have been military and homeland security-related.


Libertarians generally believe that beyond theft or force, the government should generally remain out of social issues. Using the term "socially liberal" is probably a potentially incorrect definition, though I've used it myself. I think it may infer alignment with democrat/liberal social ideas, rather than the way I described a Libertarian's view above.

Neither party really represents social liberty or social self-determination. Republicans have one set of ideas they believe everyone should follow, and Democrats have another. Both are imposing their versions on the whole.

A few examples of why I support Bush include:

- I do believe a democratic Iraq will potentially be a force for change in the middle east.

- I think in general, the Bush administration's philosophies will focus more on private sector solutions, rather than governmental solutions, which I generally agree with.


On my other board, Iron Trybe, I'm in the majority with my opinions, here, not so much so. What I think is interesting is how people who I believe all have good intentions can largely disagree on the best courses to accomplishing them.

[archive_Ulter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> - I do believe a democratic Iraq will potentially be a force for change in the middle east. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A democratic North Korea would stablize that part of the world as well. Do we go there next?

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[archive_Mickey]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> A democratic North Korea would stablize that part of the world as well. Do we go there next? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe! Don't forget, they are part of the "Axis of Evil"! http://www.anabolicfitness.net/smileys/lol2[1].gif

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[archive_Frackal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ulter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> - I do believe a democratic Iraq will potentially be a force for change in the middle east. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A democratic North Korea would stablize that part of the world as well. Do we go there next?

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I hope we're doing what we can to promote democracy in North Korea, but that doesn't mean that the approach taken for Iraq is the right approach for North Korea. North Korea presents a different set of challenges, and policy towards that it should reflect that.

====

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bjaarki:
Thanks for the correction, Ulter. I was never anything but 1-A in '69-70. It was my good luck to draw a high number (348; YES!) in the first draft lottery while Nixon was bullshitting everybody with his Peace-With-Honor jazz.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Sorry for the confusion there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What's the confusion, Frackal?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Further, this is a guy who has Dean, Gore, and Moore saying all kinds of outlandish things about Bush since forever. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your intent was clear, Frackal. You were attributing remarks of Dean, Gore and Moore to an incitement by John Kerry. That's what "This guy has Dean, Gore and Moore saying things" means. You uttered a lie, and it was my pleasure to catch you at it. Maybe you're used to talking to stupid, gullible people. We're not stupid and gullible here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I also think many here believe Bush et al. is more corrupt than I do. I know that if I believed this administration was as corrupt as most here seem to, I wouldn't be voting for them either. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've become convinced that Bono captured much of the conservative psyche when he wrote, "The less you know, the more you believe." But I'm an optimist. Belief is sometimes influenced by lack of factual knowledge, and that is a correctable condition. I'll be happy to recommend some reading to correct yours.

In the meantime, please sustain your eagerness to answer the questions I addressed to you. I'm waiting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well Bjaark, in your anger over what you think was a misattribution of mine, you've attributed a number of qualities to me on your own, which is quite a leap to take based on 1 post.

I already explained what I meant in the previous post. You either accept it, or don't. After everything you just said I'm entirely uninterested in trying to convince you further.

As far as quotes go, I don't think I need to post any from Michael Moore, but Kennedy for instance has charged that Bush concocted the war in Texas for political gain. (Like that makes sense anyway, if Bush loses, it will be because of Iraq. Had he just gone into Afghanistan, he's be riding the 9/11 support all the way into the White House this November.)


<A HREF="http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/04/cheney.dean" TARGET=_blank> Dean has said that the Bush administration uses the security alerts for political gain
</A>

Gore Accuses Bush of Iraq Lies (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/24/politics/main626033.shtml)


These are the same types of accusations that the swiftvets are making of John Kerry.

( BTW, to get a sense of the same type of upset at one's war record being trashed, visit www.swiftvets.com (http://www.swiftvets.com) and view testimony on the homepage )


Simply; both sides are likely guilty of hurting innocent vetereans for political gain, and both sides have individuals making grand accusations.

That was the entire original point to my post. That Kerry is guilty of it, now swiftvets are hitting Kerry's war record.

But after the shrillness of Gore, Moore, Dean, and Kennedy, and Kerry's comments about his fellow soldiers in Vietnam, it comes off as pretty weak when suddenly Kerry is upset about the swiftvets ads.

Of course he's going to be, that's his only politically viable course of action, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a little hypocritical given what's gone on before it.

[archive_Ulter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I hope we're doing what we can to promote democracy in North Korea, but that doesn't mean that the approach taken for Iraq is the right approach for North Korea. North Korea presents a different set of challenges, and policy towards that it should reflect that <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If not North Korea, then do you have list of countries that you feel we should take the "Iraq approach" with? Or was that the only one worth 1000 American lives, 5000 amputees, and $200 billion.

Earlier you said the left is "emotional" and that's their downfall. Paraphrasing.
So I assume you feel that the right is not emotional. Gee I hope that’s not true.

See, I would hate to think that the people who shoot abortion doctors or burn clinics or hold KKK rallies are doing so without emotion.

What emotions are you referring to?

When you say emotion at first I assumed you're not talking about the emotions like compassion and sympathy. But then maybe you are because that's what "bleeding hearts" refers to isn't it? The right doesn't have any compassion or sympathy I guess and they're proud of that. Just ask them, they're not bleeding hearts, and they'll tell you so real loud. Just like, for the most part, they are proud to be Christian. And we all know how well documented Christ's disdain for compassion and sympathy was so they are certainly good Christians if they are not bleeding hearts.

THE RIGHT IS PHUCKED UP. Bush won’t take a stand against stem cell research and his handlers tell him he can get 4 million evangelist votes if he does. So he drags his wife out to do his bidding by lecturing against it to get those votes*. What a great solution to the problem of all that drug company money coming in. Don’t play both sides. You play one side and your wife plays the other.

*credit Maureen Dowd.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[This message was edited by Ulter on 08-22-04 at 10:39 PM.]

[archive_Frackal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ulter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I hope we're doing what we can to promote democracy in North Korea, but that doesn't mean that the approach taken for Iraq is the right approach for North Korea. North Korea presents a different set of challenges, and policy towards that it should reflect that <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If not North Korea, then do you have list of countries that you feel we should take the "Iraq approach" with? Or was that the only one worth 1000 American lives, 5000 amputees, and $200 billion.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was Afghanistan worth thousands of Afghani civilians? Was WWII worth millions?

I don't have a list. It's not my place, I don't have the information to make such decisions.

It's the job of the representatives we elect to evaluate the information, both classifed and public in their decision-making.

If they decide to commit troops to war, than it
becomes the citizen's job to decide, based on the information available, whether they believe the decision was the correct one.

Retrospectively was it the right one? My opinion is that not enough time has gone by to tell.

Really I think it comes down to whether you trust the ones who made the decision to make a right and just choice, especially with Iraq, given the cloud of theories and claims about why it "really" happened.

With Iraq, it's become so confusing that that's almost all that is left. Whether you think the Bush administration intended to do the right thing, and did they make the right choice by trying to do it.

[archive_Frackal]

2nd part
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Earlier you said the left is "emotional" and that's their downfall. Paraphrasing.
So I assume you feel that the right is not emotional. Gee I hope that’s not true.

See, I would hate to think that the people who shoot abortion doctors or burn clinics or hold KKK rallies are doing so without emotion.

What emotions are you referring to?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


No, actually I said 'Michael Moore does a good job of highlighting what much of the left is like.' It doesn't apply to all. By feminine I simply mean the ability to set aside logic when forming an arguement or opinon. Moore's movies are a good reflection of this.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

When you say emotion at first I assumed you're not talking about the emotions like compassion and sympathy. But then maybe you are because that's what "bleeding hearts" refers to isn't it? The right doesn't have any compassion or sympathy I guess and they're proud of that. Just ask them, they're not bleeding hearts, and they'll tell you so real loud. Just like, for the most part, they are proud to be Christian. And we all know how well documented Christ's disdain for compassion and sympathy was so they are certainly good Christians if they are not bleeding hearts.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely not. Most people consider me to be very empathetic. Teachers and enthused relatives have always said I'd make a good leader in part I believe because when someone is talking to me about a problem, I always feel I'm able to understand and empathize with them, and then I wish to help them solve whatever is ailing them.

I don't think emotions are bad, I think they should supplement reason and logic though, not overcome it, as I see with the Moore crowd.

I consider myself to be pretty coolly logical, but I get emotional too. Hell, when I call to discuss things I'm pretty nervous because I've wanted everything to go right, I'm sure you can tell. I'm not immune.

I think though that when one allows emotions to control their actions, the outcome is never as positive as when logic plays a primary role and emotion a secondary one.


For example, one can be compassionate and afraid that professional athlete's using steroids forces not only them to take health risks, but encourages children to use them also.

The kneejerk emotive reaction is to demonize steroids, ban them,
place outrageous penalties upon their use, jail all users, destroy lives, etc...

The more logical, sensible decision in response to these (still emotional) concerns might be to encourage private sports organizations to do more to prevent them, take actions to prevent children from using them, but not over-do it so that you end up hurting thousands of adults who are harming no one by their actions.

[This message was edited by Frackal on 08-23-04 at 07:02 AM.]

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

Going into Iraq without looking for world body consent (unlike his father), was wrong! The reasons listed for invasion were a lie (yes I say lie, not mistake, because based on testimony it seems that Bush was obsessed with Saddam from day one and was just itching to invade Iraq.....)

Saying we got rid of a bad dictator as justification for pre-emptive war, american lives and world allianation, is acceptable to you? Is that in line with the liberaterian idea? Saddam was cornered and controlled, posted no immediate danger to the US, as sanctions and inspections continued and worked (based on final analysis) Now Iraq has become a battle cry and training ground for terrorism.....we did Osama a big favor . He could not have wished for a better recruiting tool. That "unintended" effect of invasion has been fortold by many analists. Bush and his neo-conservatives friends ignored it or were too stupid to comprehend. The military campaign in Iraq has complicated the War on Terror to the West's misfortune. Thank you W.

It has been my observation, based on my research, that this administration is one of the most cynical, lying, untrustworthy and manipulative administration since "Tricky Dickie". We impeached a president for lieing about a blow job and this guy's lies is costing american lives. Getting him out of the White House is of utmost importance for the welfare of our country. Everything else is secondary.
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[This message was edited by Mr. Nobody on 08-23-04 at 09:39 AM.]

[archive_Bjaarki]

Oh, stop the nonsense, Frackal, about how empathic you are and whether or not your high school teachers like you. Everbody's mother loves them. We could care less about that.

I'm still waiting for you to unpack your remark about John Kerry, where you said "Further, this is a guy who has Dean, Gore, and Moore saying all kinds of outlandish things about Bush since forever."

I asked you to do something that you can ask me to do anytime, and that is to either explain a remark or withdraw it. Instead, you told another fib. You said "I didn't mean 'Kerry HAS these guys doing things.' As in, Kerry made them do so," when that was quite plainly exactly your meaning. But ... it was all a "misunderstanding," right? It's no problem that in the meantime, your lie about Kerry stands unretracted. And now you say:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I already explained what I meant in the previous post. You either accept it, or don't. After everything you just said I'm entirely uninterested in trying to convince you further. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course you're not interested in talking to me further, because I know you prevaricated rather than explained. So let's just drop it, hunh? Yeah, let's pretend it never happened. Don't be uncivil, Bjaarki. Jeez!

Gentlemen, I hope you see how this works. It's very very important that you do. People on the political Right are addicted to telling lies ...

"Further, this is a guy who has Dean, Gore, and Moore saying all kinds of outlandish things about Bush since forever."

... when they get caught at it they lie again ...

"I didn't mean 'Kerry HAS these guys doing things.' As in, Kerry made them do so."

... and when you won't roll over for them they say:

"After everything you just said I'm entirely uninterested in trying to convince you further."

Pretty neat, hunh? And the best part of it is that it leaves the liar looking as innocent and cool as the driven snow, and it leaves the guy who won't swallow the lie looking like an asshole. Bjaarki is "angry," and Kerry is "wild-eyed." You almost have to admire the political genius of it.

Am I angry? You're damn right I am. I'm angry that my kids are going to be paying through the nose for a generation to pay down the deficit (the second one we've run up under conservative administrations) so that wealthy Texans can enjoy the mega-ranches their tax breaks bought them. I'm angry that some of my friends don't have jobs, while the crony capitalism of Bush and company doles out "special strokes for special folks." I'm angry that all I heard about in '88 was a constitutional amendment to ban flag-burning, while a $200 billion savings-and-loan swindle (HALF of which went into the pockets of wealthy Texans) was brewing under the surface, something I pay for every day. I'm angry that I work hard all day every day while my President is usually on vacation. I'm angry that a thousand Americans and tens of thousands of others have died in a vanity war so that an insecure chronic underachiever could go to his Daddy and say "Aincha' proud of me NOW, Poppy?" I'm furious, absolutely furious, that a swaggering bunch of neo-cons who never served their country in uniform have decided that the only way to pull their chestnuts out of the fire after the most dismal presidential administration since James Buchanan is to defame good and honorable men.

But most of all I'm angry for the Right's insinuations that it is we, not them, who have it all wrong, who have misunderstood everything, who would see things differently if we only accepted their "explanations".

Orwell foresaw all this, you know.

So, yeah. I'm plenty angry. Half the country is really god-damned angry, and you had better think about that. But, thankfully, I'm not worried. Because, ultimately, this campaign is going to be a matter of single-combat. One man against one man.

One of the men fought the Battle of Amarillo, defending the airspace of Texas against incursions from Oklahoma.

The other ran his Swift Boat directly into an ambush point, jumped off the bow, chased his enemy into the bush, and shot him dead with an M16. He may not be a charmer like Bill Clinton, but he's no Michael Dukakis, either.

I can't wait to see GWB on November 3rd. I'll bet you $100 that he cries like a girl .....

[Wood]

For them to fund and make a commercial at this time stating Kerry's swift boat commendations are fake is really an incredibly trashy lowdown thing to do. I was watching yesterday as they interlaced clips of people in the commercial saying Kerry lied about his swiftboat actions with clips taken as recently as 1996 of these same people saying Kerry was such a great guy and vouching for his swift boat service. No matter how you slice it, these guys who are now against Kerry are lying - they were either lying then or they are lying now.

At this point in the election I feel as if I am at a point of being forced to choose to have to toss one of these guys salads - a proposition I am not all that fond of. But regardless of either of these guys, the fact that the smear campaign involves these guys attacking his swift boat service is really a crappy lowdown thing to do.

[macdaddy]

I wonder how many republicans now feel like "compassionate conservatives"? Read this story http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/14/60II/main577975.shtml and the others like it. On the day I read that I decided I would vote against George Bush, and I will. On that day I could picture my oldst, who just turned 16, bleeding in the desert for a war that didn't need to be taking place. This war will still be going on when Casey turns 18, and if Bush wins there will be a draft.

This war is unjust and preplanned, that is apparent. Bush ran on a platform of being a compassionate conservative, is he? Just ask youselves that. I believe he is a lying, thieving sach of shit and I can't wait to vote against him. I don't particularly like John Kerry, but I'll take him over Bush.

I was on a men's retreat with some of the guys from my church, right leaning Christians for the most part. It was fascinating to hear these men discuss why they felt they couldn't vote for Bush with a clear conscience. These guys are supposed to be his base.

[archive_Ulter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Retrospectively was it the right one? My opinion is that not enough time has gone by to tell.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Frackal I think you're missing the whole point of going to Iraq. W wants so desperately to be set apart from his father that he doesn't care about the results of his actions. His agenda was to get Saddam, not because he was a threat, not because of WMD, but because his father DIDN'T get Saddam. And a thousand American kids paid with lives. The quesition he repeatedly asked in the 9/11 cabinet meetings was "was Iraq involved". Why do you think that is?
You will wait the rest of your life, because unlike those kids you have one, to see if it was the right decision but I don't have to wait that long.
I don't care if there is a thriving Iraqi stock exchange in 20 years from now. The inner cities of the THIS country needs $87 billion a lot more than Haliburton does.
As was said earlier, Osama has the best recruiting tool he could have ever dreamed of. THAT'S the result of going to Iraq. Where are the flowers Bush was talking about? There's a big difference between flowers and decapitation*.


*credit Bill Maher

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
*credit Bill Maher <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The more I listen to him the more I like him. Has he ever debated Bill O Reilley? Oh, and I saw the interview of Michael Moore on the Factor.....man it was beautiful to see Mike tear up Bill...

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[archive_Bjaarki]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>W wants so desperately to be set apart from his father that he doesn't care about the results of his actions. His agenda was to get Saddam, not because he was a threat, not because of WMD, but because his father DIDN'T get Saddam. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a different interpretation of W's motives, Ulter. I don't think he wants to be "set apart" from his father at all. I think what we have here is a very common family dynamic, played out on a national stage, as often happens when governments are controlled by political or royal dynasties: We have an eldest son who is less capable than his father, desperately seeking his father's approval and trying to emulate his father in every way. Generally, eldest sons identify with their fathers. That's how dynasties are established, and that's exactly what we have here: An oligarchic dynasty of wealthy Yankee transplants to Texas.

If the dynastic pretension works out, you get an eldest son who is capable and succeeds at emulating his father, and middle and youngest sons who rebel, choosing a very different track.

If the dynastic pretension doesn't work out - that is, if the eldest son is incapable and fails - you get ... GW and Jeb Bush.

-------------

On a different note, one that has been bugging me a lot, I've been doing a lot of thinking of how it is that the South seems to have siezed the moral high ground on "values." How is it that a section of the country, taken as a whole, that has:

- the lowest standard of living
- the lowest life-expectancy
- the lowest childhood reading levels
- the lowest per capita spending on healthcare, education and mental health
- the highest rates of obesity, smoking, and lifestyle related morbidity
- the highest rates of murder and violent crime
- the highest rates of incarceration and capital punishment (apparently, a lot of the citizens there need killing, no great recommendation)
- the highest/lowest ... you get the picture ...

... how is that this section of the country has become the seedbed of "mainstream values", a supposed moral Light to the World? I guess it's because they like to go to segregated churches, have personal relationships with The Lord, and really get off on guns and NASCAR.

This is just too pathetic. God-damn! I'm old enough to remember when we non-Southerners had to send in Federal troops to get a few poor black kids through the doors of state-funded universities, thus helping to end a de facto system of apartheid that was nearly as bleak as what existed before the Civil War. And now this benighted place is our Beacon In The Darkness.

Amazing .....

[macdaddy]

Bjaarki.....are you having 'roid rage?

My mother and father were from the south....the first thing they did when able was leave.

[archive_Bjaarki]

http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif, macdaddy.

Well ... this prop/phenylprop/suspension blend I've been using really is damn good, so a touch of the old 'roid rage is a distinct possibility.

But I don't think so. I'm generally pretty easy-going, as anyone who knows me well will tell you. But there are a few things that just make me "see red," and there doesn't seem to be much I can do about it.

Golf is one.

The supremacy of "mainstream" (Southern) values is another.

I'm glad your parents made the choice to flee. I keep telling Ulter to move up here. The ostensible reason is so he can train with IronGod, FitnessChick, RichardGear, Kyle and me. The true reason is I really love the guy, I suspect they put something in the water down there, and I want to get him, Ula and Michael out of there before they turn into Republican golfers.

As far as bringing truth and enlightenment to the Middle East goes, maybe we should perform what we call in science a "crucial experiment." Let's send them a shitload of Southern Baptists, Remington over-and-unders, biology textbooks with prominent chapters on "scientific creationism," and really really hot stock cars.

That should just about do it. I bet you in 20 years Iraq will once again be the Cradle of Civilization .....

[archive_Frackal]

Before going on further, why don't Ulter and Mr. N post what they believe the main causes for going into Iraq were?

I can accept that there were some personal motivations, but not that they were the main driving force. His advisors, Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, have stressed Saddam being removed for some time, even during the Clinton years. It's equally plausible that Bush was reacting to their perceptions of Iraq which were undoubtedly shared with him in the time before 9/11.

Ulter, I think if Iraq helps to spark a democratic reform in the middle east, it will be shown historically to have been a very wise decision.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Saying we got rid of a bad dictator as justification for pre-emptive war, american lives and world allianation, is acceptable to you? Is that in line with the liberaterian idea? Saddam was cornered and controlled, posted no immediate danger to the US, as sanctions and inspections continued and worked (based on final analysis) Now Iraq has become a battle cry and training ground for terrorism.....we did Osama a big favor . He could not have wished for a better recruiting tool. That "unintended" effect of invasion has been fortold by many analists. Bush and his neo-conservatives friends ignored it or were too stupid to comprehend. The military campaign in Iraq has complicated the War on Terror to the West's misfortune. Thank you W. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said getting rid of a bad dictator was justification for the war.

So much accusatory assumption slows down any productive discussion.

[archive_Ulter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Ulter, I think if Iraq helps to spark a democratic reform in the middle east, it will be shown historically to have been a very wise decision.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can't possibly believe that any other country in the middle east will see democratic reform as a result of Iraq. Unless you think we'll invade those countries to install it.


Bjaarki,

I will not pretend that the idea of Bush's entire presidency being a "reverse playbook" of his father's was my idea. It is explained very thoroughly by Maureen Dowd the author of Bushworld, Enter At Your Own Risk. Being from NYC I am sure you've read her articles.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[archive_Ulter]

I have listed my reasons, for the most part on this thread. He went to get Saddam because his father didn't. It was personal even more than it was about the 2nd largest oil reserve in the world.

Bush is fighting like he never did in the first election because re-election will truly set him apart from his father.
Like Bill Maher said, this tragedy is made even more a tragedy because the harder W tries not to be his father the more he becomes him. He won't get re-elected. He'll lose in a landslide. He'll have a failed domestic and Iraq policy.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[archive_Bjaarki]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I think if Iraq helps to spark a democratic reform in the middle east, it will be shown historically to have been a very wise decision. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There has been for 56 years a "democratic reform" in the Middle East, Frackal.

It's called "Israel".

And it's neighbors have never ceased trying to destroy it. So what exactly is it that you have in mind?

[archive_Frackal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ulter:
I have listed my reasons, for the most part on this thread. He went to get Saddam because his father didn't. It was personal even more than it was about the 2nd largest oil reserve in the world.

Bush is fighting like he never did in the first election because re-election will truly set him apart from his father.
Like Bill Maher said, this tragedy is made even more a tragedy because the harder W tries not to be his father the more he becomes him. He won't get re-elected. He'll lose in a landslide. He'll have a failed domestic and Iraq policy.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


If I believed that my support would end as it should.

The possibility of it concerns me quite a bit, but based on my own analysis I do not consider it the dominant reason.

- I do suspect that they were expecting to find WMDs.

- I think their goal is to try to foster change in the middle east in an effort to attack the root of terrorism, rather than just snipping away at the leaves.

- Oil was very likely a factor. An unfortunate reality.

These are some of the reasons in my view.


Israel is obviously not a muslim state and the fighting is largely for religious reasons. I believe btw that many Jewish interests are largely supportive of Bush's actions.

[archive_Bjaarki]

Frackal, get real, bro.

If they really wanted to "... foster change in the middle east in an effort to attack the root of terrorism, rather than just snipping away at the leaves," as you've said (a heroic and, on the surface, compelling reason), they should have gone after the Saudis, not the Iraqis.

But they can't go after the Saudis because they're in bed with them, and have been for more than 50 years.

So much for heroic neo-con "vision."

--------------------------

This is fun, but it would be a lot more efficient if we did this by conference call.

I'll give you guys my number if you'll give me yours. http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[archive_Ulter]

WELL WELL WELL

Bush Denounces Ads by Outside Groups

22 minutes ago


By PETE YOST, Associated Press Writer

CRAWFORD, Texas - President Bush (news - web sites) on Monday denounced campaign commercials aired by outside groups, including an ad that accuses John Kerry (news - web sites) of lying about his combat record in Vietnam.


"That ad and every other ad" run by such groups have no place in the campaign, Bush said when asked about the commercial sponsored by Swift Boat Veterans For Truth that has roiled the race for the White House.


Asked directly whether his Democratic rival for the presidency had lied, Bush said, "I think Senator Kerry served admirably and he ought to be proud of his record."


The president made his comments as the Kerry campaign fought back against charges made by the outside group about the senator's wartime service in Vietnam for which he received five medals.


In a conference call with reporters arranged by aides to the Democratic presidential candidate, Navy swift boat officers Rich McCann, Jim Russell and Rich Baker said Kerry acted honorably and bravely and was well qualified to be the nation's commander in chief.


"He was the most aggressive officer in charge of swift boats," Baker said.


Additionally, crewmate Del Sandusky said at a news conference in Harrisburg, Pa., that he personally witnessed the battle action for which Kerry received Silver and Bronze stars and two of his three Purple Hearts.


"He deserved every one of his medals," said Sandusky, a retired computer repairman who drove Kerry's Navy swift boat for nearly three months.


In Texas at his ranch, Bush said, "I don't think we ought to have 527s," a reference to the outside groups that have poured millions of dollars over the past year into attack ads. Bush himself has been a main target of ads costing some $60 million. Bush said all of the ads should be stopped.


"That means that ad," he said, referring to the anti-Kerry ad, "and every other ad."


The anti-Kerry ad, no longer running but much publicized in news accounts, says Kerry didn't deserve his Purple Hearts, lied to get his Bronze Star and Silver Star and unfairly branded all veterans with his 1971 congressional testimony about atrocities in Vietnam.


"I couldn't be more plain about it," Bush said "I hope my opponent joins me in condemning these activities of the 527s."


With polls suggesting Kerry's standing was beginning to slip — at least among veterans — the Democrat last week called on Bush to call for the attack ads to be pulled from the air. He also accused Bush of allowing front groups to "do his dirty work."


Kerry's vice presidential running mate, Sen. John Edwards (news - web sites) of North Carolina, said Bush's comments on Monday fell short of what was needed.


"The moment of truth came and went, and the president still couldn't bring himself to do the right thing," Edwards said. "Instead of hiding behind a front group, George Bush (news - web sites) needs to take responsibility and demand that the ad come off the air."


Bush's campaign has denied any connection with the anti-Kerry group, and called on the Democratic challenger to join the president in a call for all outside groups to pull their ads.


Underscoring the impact of the anti-Kerry ad, the Democratic National Committee (news - web sites) began airing a commercial last week that offered a testimonial to Kerry's fitness for national command.



And in a shift in strategy, Kerry's campaign has responded with two commercials, despite plans to preserve its campaign funds for the general election campaign.

In addition, Republican Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record) of Arizona has said the anti-Kerry tactics are the same kind used on him and has asked the president to denounce them.

A new Kerry ad says Bush smeared McCain four years ago and "now, he's doing it to John Kerry."

A former Vietnam prisoner of war, McCain lost the South Carolina Republican primary in 2000 after Bush supporters accused him of opposing legislation to help military veterans. McCain never recovered from that primary loss.

Former Sen. Bob Dole, a World War II veteran and 1996 Republican presidential nominee, suggested Kerry apologize for his 1971 testimony to Congress about atrocities U.S. soldiers allegedly committed in Vietnam.

Dole, who has a disabled right arm from war wounds, said Kerry received an early exit from combat for "superficial wounds." He called on the nominee to release all of his Vietnam service records.

Dole told CNN's "Late Edition" in relation to Kerry: "I respect his record. But three Purple Hearts and never bled that I know of. I mean, they're all superficial wounds. Three Purple Hearts and you're out."

Crewmate Sandusky said Monday, "I was there when he got wounded. I saw the blood. I don't care what Dole said."

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[macdaddy]

I'm sorry Bjaarki, it seems as if you are trying to include Florida in the realm of the southern states. Florida is populated by people from Ohio, Michigan, Illinois and New York.

Bush has been a liar from the word go, he promised compassionate conservatism, he has proven there doesn't seem to be any such thing.

[archive_Ulter]

macdaddy, I think he's poking fun at me. He doesn't really believe this to be a "southern republican" state. BTW- you left out all the Canadians.
No one is "from" Florida. I think most the hospitals here closed their maternity wards back in the 80's.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[This message was edited by Ulter on 08-23-04 at 04:43 PM.]

[macdaddy]

It's a great place to be a doctor, my brother in law is a dr in Naples (he's from Illinois), I think he pulls down about $500K/yr. Not too bad.

[archive_Bjaarki]

You're absolutely right, macdaddy. I've long known there are three kinds of people in FL: (1) retired Northeasterners, (2) young psychopaths from the Northeast who've lost their drivers' licenses due to DWI's and move south the prey on the retirees, and (3) Ulter and family.

Of course I'm poking fun at you, Ulter. But below the Mason-Dixon line you do all end up as Republican golfers because they do put something in the water down there, and I just wish you would listen to me about moving up here before it's too late .....

Listen, put Ula on the line a minute. Maybe she'll listen to reason.

BTW, Ulter, I'm not from NYC. I'm a Californian, transplanted to New Jersey, and now quite happy here.

-----------------------

It's characteristic of him that GWB waited, what?, 3 weeks, before disavowing the ads put up by the Swift Boat assassins. Meanwhile, the damage got done. Bush family politics in the grand old style.

-----------------------

What the Swift Boat thing is about, of course, is not what Kerry did in Vietnam, but what he did afterward. I thought Bob Dole had more sense than to demand that Kerry apologize for what at the time was widely regarded as courageous and searingly honest testimony. Imagine being a young kid with a Silver Star and standing up the way he did! That was his truest heroism. Dole must be getting on in years, thinking that Kerry was returning after a tour of driving his boat into an ambush by Kesselring's crack SS troops at Anzio, not a tour of duty in Vietnam, the most destructive and divisive war of the past half-century.

Kerry sometimes seems to get that confused too, in all honesty. We seem to be going through a period of historical revisionism in re Vietnam. I'm very troubled by that. Kerry was not "defending his country" in the Mekong delta. He didn't even think so at the time he volunteered (I've never understood why he volunteered for service in a war he opposed even before he volunteered), and I guess the only reason he has to say so now is so he can prove his creds as Commander-in-Chief. Well, if the Dems seem to need to do that in the world of realpolitik, so be it, but I thought, wrongly I now see, that we had that all sorted out long ago.

But I guess I was wrong ... Vietnam ... Wow ... It is a measure of the insanity of that conflict in which 58,000 Americans, and 2 million Vietnamese, patriots all, gave up their young lives, that, even two generations later, it still stretches forth its bloody fingers to strangle and confound our political debate. No other war has ever been like that, not even the Civil War, though Iraq may well turn out that way. I guess that's the price we have to pay for our sins there.

To paraphrase something I read a few days ago and now can't place, "The trouble is not that war is always good or always bad. The trouble is that war is always war. War is useful for destroying things that sometimes need destroying, as in 1864, or 1944. But war will never create anything good."

Grant understood that. Eisenhower did. LBJ didn't, and neither does GWB.

I hope, and believe, that Kerry does. That's a good thing, since I, like Ulter, believe he will carry the election, but in a squeaker, not a landslide. That will be good. We need a reluctant warrior to replace a warmongering reluctant.

[archive_Ulter]

The reason I say a landslide is that the polls still have them close. If they are in a dead heat in the polls Kerry wins by a landslide. Because there is a problem with the polls. The first question they ask is "Did you vote in the last election?" This is how they determine "likely voters". There's the flaw. There will be a huge number (millions) of people voting against Bush that have NEVER voted let alone voted in the last election. While the number voting FOR Bush DID vote last time. Either way there is one thing for sure, we're all going to find out.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[archive_Mickey]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>On a different note, one that has been bugging me a lot, I've been doing a lot of thinking of how it is that the South seems to have siezed the moral high ground on "values." How is it that a section of the country, taken as a whole, that has:

- the lowest standard of living
- the lowest life-expectancy
- the lowest childhood reading levels
- the lowest per capita spending on healthcare, education and mental health
- the highest rates of obesity, smoking, and lifestyle related morbidity
- the highest rates of murder and violent crime
- the highest rates of incarceration and capital punishment (apparently, a lot of the citizens there need killing, no great recommendation)
- the highest/lowest ... you get the picture ...

... how is that this section of the country has become the seedbed of "mainstream values", a supposed moral Light to the World? I guess it's because they like to go to segregated churches, have personal relationships with The Lord, and really get off on guns and NASCAR.

This is just too pathetic. God-damn! I'm old enough to remember when we non-Southerners had to send in Federal troops to get a few poor black kids through the doors of state-funded universities, thus helping to end a de facto system of apartheid that was nearly as bleak as what existed before the Civil War. And now this benighted place is our Beacon In The Darkness.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


AMEN!!! I think I love you B! http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I hate the South and I have had enough after only living here for 1 year full time. Florida is quite a mix of people though. There are lots of true Southerners here though, just enough to make me sick. My favorite story so far is the girl at a local high school who got suspended because she told the principal that she was tired of seeing rebel flags in school all of the time and she found it offensive. The principal told her that it was a "sensitive issue here" and she was basically told to shut up.


Ulter is right, there should be a lot of walk up type voters who don't usually vote just to try and defeat Bush. People aren't even voting for Kerry because they want him, they are voting for Kerry because they HATE Bush.

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[archive_Bjaarki]

I found that quote on the nature of war that I mentioned above, and on which I wish every American would meditate.

It's in "The Big One: Historians rethink the war to end all wars," by Adam Gopnik, The New Yorker,, August 23, 2004.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> History does not offer lessons; its unique constellations of contingencies never repeat. But life does offer the same points, over and over again. A lesson is many-edged; a point has only one, but that one sharp. And the point we might still take from the First World War is the old one that wars are always, in Lincoln's perfectly chosen word, astounding. They produce results that we can hardly imagine when they start. It is not that wars are always wrong. It is that wars are always wars, good for destroying things that must be destroyed, as in 1864 or 1944, but useless for doing anything more, and no good at all for doing cultural work: saving the national honor, proving that we're not a second-rate power, avenging old humiliations, demonstrating resolve, or any of the rest of the empty vocabulary of self-improvement through mutual slaughter. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Re-reading this, I realize that the other side of my anger is ... sadness. Have you ever seen the corpse of a 20-year-old man in a casket? Once your friend, now lying cold, still, and lifeless as wax? Your eyes will search his face, and then will search the heavens, and, I promise you, you'll never want to see another one.

I've experienced the deaths of people close to me, a couple of them by violence, and I know the huge, empty, aching hole such loss leaves in the fabric of life from which they were so brutally torn. Even so, such deaths can be noble, and enobling. As in 1864. As in 1944. Even from such terrible wastage, good can arise.

But not in 1968. And not in 2004.

Looking at the mess we've gotten ourselves into in Iraq, I don't know whether to fight, or to mourn.

Both, I guess.

Be well, brothers. Journey safely.

Bjaarki

... Then, do what you have to do.

[Monster]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bjaarki:

Have you ever seen the corpse of a 20-year-old man in a casket? Once your friend, now lying cold, still, and lifeless as wax? Your eyes will search his face, and then will search the heavens, and, I promise you, you'll never want to see another one.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which may go a long way toward explaining the "elite right" and their rabid support of the war.
Its easier to support a war when you know your own children will be able to use loop-holes provided by your kind, for your kind to get out of ever having to serve, or perhaps only serve state side in a "chamagne squadron"...
Its almost like having no real consequences to your actions.

-------------------------
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

Well hold on there a minute. Lets not all jump on the "bash the south" band wagon. I am the most neutral transplant there is and have lived up north (NYC) and south. I know people from WVa and other assortment of southern states and do live in Fl currently. The main difference, as I can summarize it briefly without too much detail, is people's warmth. Sorry to say that Bjaarki but my experience with Jersey folks (or "Bridge and Tunnel people" as referred to in NYC) and people from NYC is that they are by nature colder. They listen less, are more self important, self absorbed and honestly at least towards me, acted more disengaged and aloof. If you are not wealthy and live in NYC you have to look hard for warmth. I assume similar to be true in larger towns around the northeast.
However, I do believe that the distinction is small and has more to do with country vers city folks. Southern hospitality is alive and well but has unfortunately been politicized. A true southerner from heart will invite you in his home, treat you respectfully no matter what your affiliation. Such has been my experience as an outsider meeting my wife's extended family and friends.

As mentioned afore, the proplem is not the percieved supperiority of Southern Values but the use of it for political gains. It has put a stain on a beautifull tradition and cheapened the nature of the experience. And no, no party has exclusive rights to it since as said above, it is practised by all regardless of party affiliation. It was my experience, as I was welcomed by my wife's family and her southern friends, that it comes from the heart and may be rooted in poverty and heartship. I was welcomed with open arms without prejudice and was treated as family and invited to share the best accomodations those folks could afford. Strangly, Southern Values as I experienced and understand, means tolerance and good will, an attribute not practised by contemporary conservative politicians

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[This message was edited by Mr. Nobody on 08-24-04 at 09:42 AM.]

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
the lowest standard of living
- the lowest life-expectancy
- the lowest childhood reading levels
- the lowest per capita spending on healthcare, education and mental health
- the highest rates of obesity, smoking, and lifestyle related morbidity
- the highest rates of murder and violent crime
- the highest rates of incarceration and capital punishment (apparently, a lot of the citizens there need killing, no great recommendation)
- the highest/lowest ... you get the picture ...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that has everything to do with poverty and nothing with values. Just look into New Jersey's poor neighborhoods and you will find the same

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
we non-Southerners had to send in Federal troops to get a few poor black kids through the doors of state-funded universities, thus helping to end a de facto system of apartheid that was nearly as bleak as what existed before the Civil War
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have been exposed to and heard more racial slurs on the streets of NYC then any other place. The southern history of racism is well documented and of course hard to overcome (like the german history with jews) It can not be denied and prejudice still exists, no doubt. My point is though, that it is very prevelant up north as well. As a born Austrian I feel similar responsibility and am tired of being constantly reminded of and required to applogize for my forefathers sins.

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[This message was edited by Mr. Nobody on 08-24-04 at 09:11 AM.]

[archive_Bjaarki]

You misunderstood me, Mr. N. You've heard racial slurs on the streets of New York. Sure. I hear them everyday when I train with certain individuals at a gym in Edison NJ. So what?

I once worked as a land surveyor in Oklahoma. Every other member of the crew was a KuKluxKlansman. Every one of them, bar none. They thought nothing of it. It was normal. So what?

My point was that conservatives in this country make a constant appeal to "mainstream values," and I can assure you that those voicing their pride in these values do not have in mind anything they learned in New York, or Boston, or Philly, or Minneapolis. They have in mind the "values" of the "heartland," which more and more is equated with the South, the Baptist South, while the fact is - it might be unpopular to say so, I can't help that - but the fact is that the only place in the American heartland that has ever nourished a progressive spirit is the northern Great Plains. I wish that weren't so, but it is.

There are plenty of good and true people in the South. You are certainly one, I know you personally, and am glad you've been transplanted there. But the rise of your neighbors to moral pre-eminence is very curious and troubling to me, because every fact I adduced in my list is true, and I could have gone on and on to show you how, both historically and currently, such "heartland" is a morally bankrupt place.

You appeal to "poverty" to explain it, and that is certainly true. But follow your argument a bit further. Why, exactly, do you think poverty abides in the South, and not (to the same degree) here, in the North? Is it because Southerners have a climate, a terrain, a sense of industry, a less capable people, a flora or fauna less conducive to prosperity? No. It is because their region bears a legacy, and extends it into the current and into the future, that is deeply marked by bigotry, intolerance, elitism, crony capitalism, chauvinism, sexism, a pride-in-ignorance, and a still-unrequited love affair with the Old South, something Sherman and Grant destroyed physically, but never mentally. And I just think that it is dangerous as hell that this is the place to which our leaders - Southerners nearly to a man - encourage us to look for moral guidance.

Bjaarki

... Then, do what you have to do.

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

Bjaarki, you should look at it more politically. The conversation has turned to <BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "values" of the "heartland," which more and more is equated with the South, the Baptist South <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> because these states have become battle grounds for votes. As more and more people move south (an undeniable trend) those states gain political importance and are being pandered to. Its all about votes, nothing else! If California was up for grabs, we'd be seeing surfing president dudes

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Why, exactly, do you think poverty abides in the South, and not (to the same degree) here, in the North? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ever been to Hartford, Cleveland, Detroit and similar rust belt cities? C,mon your above statement is pure (pardon my german, lol) Scheisse (horseshit)

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[archive_Bjaarki]

I don't agree, Mr. N. The states that are up for grabs are, with the exception of FL, Northern and Northeastern and, to lesser extent, far Western. Ohio. Michigan. Pennsylvania. Oregon. If any voters should be pandered to, it should be there.

The South is firmly "red," doesn't need pandering to, and cannot, in itself, muster the electoral votes to elect anyone. No one needs to preach to the choir there. But they do.

Why?

That is not a rhetorical question. I don't understand it. And I don't like it.

... Then, do what you have to do.

[archive_Bjaarki]

I said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Why, exactly, do you think poverty abides in the South, and not (to the same degree) here, in the North? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

... to which Mr. N responded:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Ever been to Hartford, Cleveland, Detroit and similar rust belt cities? C,mon your above statement is pure (pardon my german, lol) Scheisse (horseshit) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, come on, Mr. N. That is pure sophistry and you know it.

I never said there is no poverty in the North. I've run clinics for the poor, right here in the Garden State. What I said was that, taken as a whole, the South is poorer than the North, and I suggested why that might be so. But wasn't that your own point, when, explaining why it is that the South scores so dismally on every social indicator you can think of, you said:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> that has everything to do with poverty and nothing with values. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's unusual to see you argue both ends of the same argument in the same thread, Mr. N., but you have done so here. No biggie. It's my fault for stepping on your in-laws' toes, and for that, I apologize. I didn't know about that, and I like and respect you too much to want to make you uncomfortable.

I didn't want to get into a real South-bashing fest here. Actually, that's not completely true. If there's any region on God's Green Earth that surely deserves a royal bashing, it's the American South. If it weren't for the fact that it would have ended, perhaps forever, the wonder of popular government by the will of the majority (something most in the South still can't quite get their heads around, nearly 150 years later), I would wish that Lincoln would, in 1861, have "let our wayward sisters go" (that is, secede), as many then urged.

What I am really bummed about is how certain "values" that are to a large extent rooted in Southern culture have come to function as the moral touchstone in any debate on national policy. To some extent, these values are rooted in rural, rather than Southern per se culture, but they seem more and more to be uttered with a certain twang and, unlike most here, I remember 1963 very well, when the Governor of Alabama, George Wallace, ordered to admit two black students to a university for which their parents' taxes had in part paid, said "I shall refuse to abide by any such illegal federal court order even to the point of standing in the schoolhouse door." As a young man, I helped to shout down Wallace and boo him off the stage at a rally he'd organized (What was he THINKING?) in Southern California in 1968.

The rest is history. At least it was until we developed, as we always do, cultural amnesia. How else to explain the fact that Mississippian Trent Lott, Senate Majority Leader, thought he could get away with saying in 2002, about the inveterate racist Strom Thurmond's 1948 presidential bid, "I want to say this about my state: When Strom Thurmond ran for president, we voted for him. We're proud of it. And if the rest of the country had followed our lead, we wouldn't have had all these problems over all these years, either."

There's a big chunk of your "mainstream values" for you right there. Lott paid for his mistake with his leadership post, but ask around in the Great and Sovereign State of Mississippi, and they think Ol' Trent did jes' fahn, thank y'.

There are some ugly, ugly questions in this world that just have to be faced. "What the hell is wrong with Islam?" is one of them. "What the hell is wrong with the Israeli Right?" is another. "What the hell is wrong with Bjaarki? Roid rage?" is another. And so is "What the hell is wrong with the American South?" or rather with our country as a whole, that we let this benighted place "set the agenda" and dominate the debate on issues like war (Iraq), peace (chauvinistic militarism), life (stem-cell research) and death (capital punishment). I know I'm not making any friends, and am probably losing a few, by saying that, but I can't help that.

[archive_Ulter]

I could be way off here but I think Mr N's knowledge of recent (last 40 years) history of the south is somewhat limited. As well it should be, he's not from here nor old enough to remember it all. So Wallace and Thurmond may not ring a bell.
I wish I could remember names but I recall a white politician being elected over a black politician in Louisiana in the 70's. No big deal except the white guy was in jail serving a 2 year sentence.

I have many good friends from the deep south. Most are very well educated and do very well, the only thing is, they all live in Chicago. Most of the really exceptional people graduating from the Universities here can't wait to leave. Oddly enough however of all the people I have met that work at Lockheed Martin over here none are from the south.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
What I said was that, taken as a whole, the South is poorer than the North, and I suggested why that might be so. But wasn't that your own point, when, explaining why it is that the South scores so dismally on every social indicator you can think<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At this point in time this may still be true. However, your list of social ills are all attributed to poverty, as I mentioned above, wherever it may exist. This is not arguing both sides. I was just saying that it is NOT confined to the South or indicative of the South, but related to poverty and poverty alone. I was trying to separate your list from the South and connect it to poverty. If that may have appeared as argueing both sides, then I was misunderstood.

The south is rising however, many people and industries are relocating here. In stead of lamenting this trend, ask yourself why? Why are the cities of the rust belt dying, why are well paying industries heading south (lol) or bypassing the north alltogether? It may tie in with your question in regards to why we debate Southern Values instead of Northern Values. You also never reacted to my observation of northern apparend aloofness? Yes it is true that as an immigrant my knowledge of recent (last 40 years) history of the south is somewhat limited. I do not shoulder the burden of the south's racist history, but that exactly makes my current observation so valuable.

Bjaarki, dont worry about offending my wife's family. They are very aware of how they are being perceived and in true southern fashion just don't care, lol. I am not offended either since I have similar discussions with friends from the north. I want to point out though, that instead of decrying the fact that the South has a hold on values, why not examine yourself and your northern culture more closely and look for an explanation yourself?

Bjaarki I have some property close by where you can build your own retirement home in good old sunny Florida, I know you will end up here anyway, everybody from New Jersey with money does, LOL

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[macdaddy]

I was born in Virginia and lived in Maryland until I was 15, outside of DC, not really southern. My parents has vacated the south and really didn't want to go back. And yes my dad was educated, juris dr in law, he ended up a federal judge. The schools in Maryland did seem to be southern though, and I went to a private (southern Baptist) school. I have spent many hours in therapy trying to overcome what those assholes did. For instance, didn't do your home work? You get a beating.

I have a lot of family in the south, some very educated, some not. The educated ones are very successful and a pleasure to talk to, and for the most part they aren't racist. The ones who did not seek to educate themselves can be difficult to talk to.

The south is a funky place. For instance, they make no attempt to hide their racism, it's right out there, on the state flag in some cases. But other moral shortcomings are very well hidden. Many have no problem showing up at church on Sunday morning and meeting their mistress Sunday afternoon, and that is a very well established tradition.

I can sum up my impression of the deep south (southern GA, Miss, Alabama). My maternal Grandfather was the sherriff in a small county in southern GA, not too far from Savanah. He died before I was born. As a little boy I once asked one of my uncles "did grandaddy ever shoot anyone?" To which the straight faces reply was "No...well at least not anybody white". That about sums it up for me right there.

[archive_Bjaarki]

Mr. N., it's funny that a lot of this thread has turned into a he-said/he-said between you and me. I can't think of a single guy here with whom my views are more compatible than yours or who I like more than you, but that's the way it is. Friends, always .....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>However, your list of social ills are all attributed to poverty, as I mentioned above, wherever it may exist ... I was just saying that it is NOT confined to the South or indicative of the South, but related to poverty and poverty alone. I was trying to separate your list from the South and connect it to poverty. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's fine, but there is just no way to disconnect the words "South" and "poverty." Southernness and poverty are very highly correlated, and this is my point, because the very values the South wishes to export to the rest of the country, and then to the world induces poverty. Not among all classes, you have your gentry, the South always did, but most people there are held down by the very "values" they seem to cherish. Chief of these is crony capitalism, a set of skills at which the South, particularly Texas, and most particularly the Bush family, excels. But all the rest of it keeps Southerners poor, too. The racism. The xenophobia. The I'm-dumb-as-dirt-and-damn-proud-of-it attitude. You keep saying the problem isn't Southernness, it's poverty, and I keep asking you why it is that the South is so pathetically poor, and you never respond to that point. Basically, the South is poor because it is backward - economically, socially, politically, and in every other way. When you're backward, you're poor. That's okay, go ahead and be backward and poor if it really pleases you. But don't expect me to emulate you. I know better.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The south is rising however, many people and industries are relocating here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, industry is relocating there because wages are so damned low and there is a strong cultural tradition of anti-unionism (some poor people take a perverse pride in getting fucked by the oligarchic rich), and the people follow, the poor suckers. The Wal-Marts. The chicken farms where they lock the workers in so when a fire breaks out they all burn to death, the pig farms that poison the ground water for miles around. Yep, lots of riches in the South. That's such a joke .....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You also never reacted to my observation of northern apparend aloofness? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What do you want me to say? We're aloof. There. Hey, you want aloof, you ought to try New Hampshire. Or Maine. You're still "new" there unless your family moved in before Andy Jackson was president.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Bjaarki, dont worry about offending my wife's family. They are very aware of how they are being perceived and in true southern fashion just don't care, lol. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm glad I don't have to worry about them, but I wasn't worried about their feelings. I was worried about yours. Hell, I know your in-laws don't care how they're perceived outside of their region. No Southerner does. Such parochialism is a crucial part of their problem. How can you change if you never accept any feedback?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I want to point out though, that instead of decrying the fact that the South has a hold on values, why not examine yourself and your northern culture more closely and look for an explanation yourself? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't have to examine myself because I don't go around bragging about how great my "values" are. We don't do that up here. But I, in fact, do examine myself and as I have said many times, I don't like the result. I'm a deceitful cheat, so morally compromised it isn't even funny. Maybe that makes me better able to spot hypocrites, liars and cheats when I see them, I don't know, but believe me, your region has much more than its share. That in itself doesn't bother me. I feel okay around liars and cheats. I just don't like being around liars and cheats who think they stand at the right hand of God.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Bjaarki I have some property close by where you can build your own retirement home in good old sunny Florida, I know you will end up here anyway, everybody from New Jersey with money does, LOL
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not for me, buddy. It will be Southern California, a nice little rancho in the Santa Ynez valley up behind Santa Barbara for me. But I bet your offer is a sincere one, and I do appreciate it.

Mr. N., I really do care about and respect you, and know that you're too decent and naive to live where you live, my brother.

So do a little experiment.

Hint around with all your neighborly neighbors that you have Jewish ancestry.

Tell them your mother is Jewish, which will let you keep your Austrian last name but will make you, according to Hallakah, Jewish.

Yeah. Tell them you're a Jew. Do that, and see how neighborly your nice neighbors are after that.

Then you'll be forced to move up here and train with us, as Ulter would do if he had any sense .....

[Monster]

Ok, Ive just been reading and enjoying (aside from my one statement) but thought I would interject on the whole Florida thing.

As a Detroiter relocated to Florida I was shocked at the differences, it was nothing short of culture shock.

In Michigan the middle class and above lived out of the city and in the suburbs and such.
In Florida (at least the Orlando area) the "city" had all of the people from the North (the city and all of the adjacent communities), while as you got further away from the city you saw the poor people in shacks out in the rural areas. These were people from tennesse, georgia, the "true south". Likie stated above, there are few native Floridians.

I originally settled kind of far outside of Orlando, in a community that was nonetheless a place northerners came to settle and not pay the higher prices of city living.

Anyway, with the set up out of the way...

It was wierd to have a 50 year old black man call me "Sir". I soon realized that it was a little piece of the "Old South" still rearing its ugly head.
Even younger minorities (black for the most part, hispanic people were looked down on in a whole different way) seemed to "know their place".

I heard white guys talk about "ni**ers" the way only the most vicious of rednecks up north did.

I saw black workers passed over for promotions at a major retailer and the white managment made very little effort to hide the fact that race was the issue (among other white employees... because why would they care???).

And puting race aside...

A woman who wouldnt let her kids see Harry Potter because it was against Christian values and anti-Jesus. Then talk about all the dirty Jews in Miami.

Thyese are people who vote for a president because his opponent "wants to take away their guns".

They support Bush because Bush support family values. But arent really upset when a group of their children goes out on a saturday night to "jump fags".

The people from the north are for the most part the exception to this, but the southerners living there are keeping the REAL southern traditions alive. I did see it all bring out the worst in some northerners, but thats could just be people who were that way to begin with and finally found a receptive crowd.

All Im saying is that my experiance in the south was such. Southern hospitality was for insiders only, or for those white people who fit in and didnt disagree with their way of thinking.

Among the more colorful bumperstickers I saw were:

"Yankee Go Home"

"We Dont Care How You Do It Up North"

"Id Rather Be Historically Accurate Than Politically Correct"

and one playing on the No Fear clothing line

"N.O. F.E.A.R.: National Organization For European-American Rights"

I mean... Wow. Where else in the country could you have a bumper sticker like that and not have your bumper torn off while you were away from your car??

So now Im back up north. Im not saying it is without its own set of faults, but I just want prepared to step back in time that far...

-------------------------
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

[archive_Mickey]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Hell, I know your in-laws don't care how they're perceived outside of their region. No Southerner does. Such parochialism is a crucial part of their problem. How can you change if you never accept any feedback? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I deal with this every day. My girlfriend and her family are originally from Georgia. Her parents are the most stubborn and stuck in their ways people I have ever met. The funny thing is, they are very successful, pulling in over $300k a year between them. I have been told that I cant even express my opinion in their house so I dont offend the man of the house. What he says goes and he doesnt want to hear anyone else disagree with him in his house. I refuse to deal with any of this and her parents have put a major strain on our relationship. I tell everyone that I feel like I am back in 1910 when I am around them. They of course, think I am crazy for being so "outspoken" and "loud" because I actually say what I feel. I think that they are bad parents though and I dont want to give the impression that everyone is like them.
I have met some nice Southern people here but they still seem to be stuck in a time warp.

In my church the other day my pastor actually said "Northern people are funny because they just tell it like it is. Us Southern people will smile and lie to your face." I just have a hard time with all of this and being here has really opened my eyes to the way that these people think.

Bjaarki is right, it is very poor here. There is no middle class here really, you are either really well off or you are poor. Since my best friend is black and I have a lot of black friends (including my probably future brother-in-law who is Puerto Rican and a third black) coming down here and seeing how people of color are treated was a shock to me. Yes, people up North use bad words to describe certain ethnic groups but its different somehow. Here they are still treated and looked at like second class citizens. I notice that the people of color dont have any confidence, they wont even look you in the eye.

I really dont have anything else to say because I believe that everything Bjaarki and Monster said is true. I just wish I could show this thread to my gf and have her realize that I am not the only person who feels this way, as she thinks I am now.

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[archive_Ulter]

Ursula put a question to me last night about this thread's skewed subject. There are lots of southerners that get educated and get out or at least break the cycle so that they don't pass on their parents bigotry and their perversion of Christian values. So the question is how long will Bubba last? Wouldn't natural selection keep the Bubba way of life from surviving? I suppose they have made it this far pretty much unchanged in 150 years so you could argue that they'll last 150 more. But their numbers seem to be dwindling with the escalation of intruders from the north and with more emphasis being place on a college education than it was 30 years ago. Will they go the way of the native Americans, a footnote in the census numbers?

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[archive_Mickey]

I think they will go the way of the dinosaurs and Native Americans.

You can see the pressure to change in Florida already. So many people are moving down here because housing is still cheaper than up North (but not for long in the major counties) and that is changing the landscape. Jobs are being moved down here because people work for nothing here and they accept it. It will probably take at least the 100 years that you speak of for people to change down here somewhat. I just cant see people dying to move to Alabama, Arkansas or Louisiana for some reason though and the change there will be minimal if at all for a long time. I think Georgia, Florida and probably the Carolinas as they start to populate more with fresh bodies from the North, will be the first states to see a noticeable change. As more and more houses are built here in FL and in other states and the cities grow and the people start to populate the rural areas in the Southern states where Bubba lives, Bubba will hav to change and adapt. Bubby will be out numbered hopefully and he will eventually die off.

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[Monster]

They will. Its only a matter of time, really.

In essence they are living in a way that is ultimatly self destructive... their beliefs and way of life is self defeating and based in ignorance.
Forced integration in the form of (as you mentioned) northern invaders and education will cause their way of thinking and way of life become more and more rare.

As kids start attending college they are exposed to cultures they would not be exposed to otherwise. Hatred and racism are things that are best exercised from a distance, its a lot more difficult to despise a person you have had a chance to know.
When you see a person with different colored skin, a different religon or whatever and watch as you both go through the same struggles and trials you begin to look at them in a different light.

Im not saying you go to college and racism is gone, but it does foster some undertsanding...

Using Micey as an example: He and his wife have children. She comes from an "Old South" family, he doesnt. Their children break the cycle of hate.
At some point this happens to a degree that sees the hateful people as the minority.

Think of how the North has changed in the last 30 years!
Detroit was VERY segregated after the riots of the sixties. Now things are much different than they were then.

Sadly, human nature is such that we need someone to hate, and nothing has helped black/white relations here than 9/11.
We have the largest Arabic community outside of the middle east in the entire world here, and many white and black people have come together in their shared hatred of Arabs. This happens even though many of the Arabic people here are people who fled Iraq and have celebrated the opprotunity to be reunited with loved ones, and that the muslims who are engaged in this jihaad against us are not representatives of muslims in general any more than David Koresh was a representative of Christianity.

But I digress...

It will change. All oppresive ways of life, be they governments or ways of thinking are doomed to fail. History has shown us that...

-------------------------
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

[archive_Frackal]

Here in the northwest this crap is almost non-existent. We elected a black mayor here in Denver and it wasn't even an issue locally, (ie, no one thought twice about it) but national news played on it once awhile back when some heinous crime was committed against some black people here.

There's the Kobe Bryant thing which is here, but I expect him to be acquitted and that's in a rural part of Colorado.

There is growing concern about the increased hispanic immigration however. I personally don't mind Mexicans much, I've worked with them and found them very hard workers with good values; the only thing that concerns me with their group is their seeming reluctance to come here to become Americans, rather than expect Americans to go a little Mexican. More a problem in Cali then here though.

Friends and I have also noticed that latinas seem to be generally hotter per capita than other ethnicities here.

[macdaddy]

Hey Ulter, I appreciate you separating the "perversion of Christian values". Thanks.

[Monster]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Frackal:
the only thing that concerns me with their group is their seeming reluctance to come here to become Americans, rather than expect Americans to go a little Mexican. More a problem in Cali then here though.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its no different than an other "minority" when they first made a home here.

The Irish kept tight knit communities that resisted the influences of mainstream America when they first began to immigrate here. Italians did the same for the longest time and were not very inclined to comingle among those who werent "their kind".

Its just what might be called a "growing pains" in integrating a people into a larger, more complex society.
It does breed a lot of contempt among people on the outside who view those people as "thinking they are better" or whatever, but its just a part of becoming a part of a diverse society.

Its happeneing here slowly in the Arabic community. We've gone through a few of the phases (ignoring, misunderstanding, fear, hatred) and are now in the "they think theyre better" phase (of course all complicated by 9/11).

But not to get too far off subject...

The "Party of Inclusion" as the Republicans like to call themselves, breeds this sort of hysteria.
They are hate mongers who when you get to their very heart are still practicing the old world politics:
"Youre not messed up, its those other people who are messed up. If you elect ME I'll champion YOU and fight against THOSE PEOPLE and support YOUR values."

When the deficit was again skyrocketing under a GOP president, they didnt point the finger at their own policies, they turned it around... "You hard working people shouldnbt have to deal with this big deficit, its all the fault of those people on welfare!"

And of course the lemmings all said "Yeah, those damn welfare mothers! Eating lobster and driving around in Mercedes!"

So all sorts of people lose welfare and health care benefits... but the deficit doesnt seem to have lessened...

-------------------------
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

You guys act like all white Southerners are toothless, uneducated rebell flag waving bigots living in trailers with a car on blocks in the front yard. We walk around shirtless, burp hell yeah whenever Bush talks about guns and religion while slapping the shit out of our crack edicted permanently pregnant wives. Ulter, did you tell them about your visit in my neighborhood? http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

We have gone off course in our discussion, way off course. The last point I want to address is that even though I am very greatful and thankful for unions and their existence, today's world may have made them obsolete. My skills and negotioation power alone without outside interference will decide my destiny. I dont need some crooked mob run organisation to arbitrate, litigate or mitigate for me. While I may not be a traditional worker, actually I am in the procees of starting a little business myself (while still maintaining my current position) it is true that there is exploitation of the uneducated, low wage worker and that he is too stupid to realize that, and that this may be a reason for some industry to relocate, but it is not the sole reason for european companies to build high tech businesses in Atlanta and/or Charlotte. There is much progressive thinking going on down here, many revisions as I can tell, rising standards of living as well as education and it may be that the northern influx of immigrants is at the root of those causes, but so what? I never defended the racist history nor the still racist attitudes of some. But you guys are grossly exagerating. The south does not have racism legislated still and does not turn a blind eye to racist bahaviour, far be it. This progressiveness is being realized by politicains whether you are in a battleground state or not and that is why the South and its traditional values have become the topic of discussions. It is Southern Values sanitized and presented Disney Style. Your anti southern ranting is starting to sound envious.

Last, but not least, Bush needs to go, lets focus on that more than anything, shall we?

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[This message was edited by Mr. Nobody on 08-26-04 at 11:38 AM.]

[archive_Ulter]

You're getting too sensitive on me here Samson. I think everyone has acknowledged that the deep south is changing and that it's not what it was 30 years ago, largely due to the ephysis on college and northern integration. Tell me more about the southern worker when you have your own business for a few years.
Having worked with them for 20 years I can't wait to hear about it.


"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

Well somebody had to stick up for us in the south (even though I am not a Southerner per se)

I dont want to say too much about my plans in the fear of jinxing them......must be good old southern superstition http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

One last thing. Most of my inbread, toothless, uneducated, rebell flag waving, wife beating, shirtless, racist friends are republicans and we have had many political discussions in the past. Not one of them ended angry or was conducted without mutual respect. I might haven even changed a mind or two. Nevertheless, these same people now agree with me that Bush must go.....and that is why he will lose in a land slide http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[archive_Bjaarki]

I agree with you, Mr. N., that enough is enough. I'm the sinner here. We got off-focus from Ulter's thread-starter on the Swift Boat controversy, because I started a rant on "values," then that morphed to "Southern values" (me again), and then to South-bashing (my favorite sport). It was fun, though. I'm pretty sated now, like I just ate my favorite meal, though I really am sorry if I offended you or yours. I really do think you would have a different attitude about your adopted region if your were not White, male and Christian, but that's enough on that.

What surprised me the most is that the majority - it seems like everyone, in fact, except for Frackal - shares my conviction that Bush and his crowd have been a national disaster roughly on the scale of a giant asteroid impact. Thank God I'm in a place where I can feel at home.

Thank you all for your tolerance of my pretty pointed barbs. Just don't get me talking again about Southern values or golf, and I'll be fine .....

Be well. Journey safely.

Bjaarki

... Then, do what you have to do.

[Monster]

Yeah, I didnt mean to offend you MrN... wait, I dont want to confuse you. Let me say it in a way a "southern gentleman" can understand.

I shure nuff dint mean ya no harm with them words I was a sayin. I dearly hope ya dint get all bowed up an outta kilter... us yankees kin be a might bit uppity at times. I rekon good manners outta us yankees is scarce as a hens teeth, so take this here bit a jawin as my way of fixin to make things right between us and the rest if yer southern brethren. I dont want no hard feelins lest you air up the tires on yer pick up truck and drive up here to whup my sarry beehind.
http://www.anabolicfitness.net/smileys/lol2[1].gif

Lol, really bro. No offense. I liked Florida (though as B mentions, I am white) but the job market sucked and I needed to make money ASAP or I was stuck.

And to show there is no hard feelings for Frakal, heres a nice Reelection poster for him to hang to show his support for Bush...

http://www.bushflash.com/jpg/reich.jpg

-------------------------
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

No worries, I am not offended at all. It was fun to defend the Southern United States from the Northern United States as an Austrian. Maybe I should go into politics.......wait a minute.....Arnold is calling http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And to top it off, I am not even christian. I was born and raised catholic but have adopted a "Joseph Campbell" style non religious spirituality long time ago.....oh no, here goes my political carrier already... oh well.....it was great while it lasted http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


Monster great job on that impression. I have tried many times to emulate that certain southern sound only to be snickered at for my distinct german twists.


__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[This message was edited by Mr. Nobody on 08-26-04 at 09:14 PM.]

[Monster]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Nobody:
I have tried many times to emulate that certain southern sound only to be snickered at for my distinct german twists.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That WOULD be hilarious!

-------------------------
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

[archive_Mickey]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And to top it off, I am not even christian. I was born and raised catholic but have adopted a "Joseph Campbell" style non religious spirituality long time ago <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mr.N can you explain what this means? If you dont want to talk about it I understand.

And dont worry, I wont turn it into a discussion, I just want to know what it is because I am curious.

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

Get "The Power of Myth" one of the last interviews of Joseph Campbell by Bill Moyers and you will never look at religion the same way.

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[archive_Frackal]

I have a deep faith in God, but am entirely non-religious. I don't believe it's necessary. (At least for me anyway.)

God is necsarry for me

when you have seen what I have there is no denying the existance

[archive_Ulter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Frackal:
I have a deep faith in God, but am entirely non-religious. I don't believe it's necessary. (At least for me anyway.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's me too. Jesus said to go into a closet and pray by yourself and was generally anti-church. But that didn't stop religions from building them for the last 2000 years anyway did it? I also have a problem with organizations that want to oversee my prayer, tell me how to live, and then ask me for money for doing so.

Greek Orthodoxy rebelled form Catholosism

becuase we belive the Spirit of the Church is in the population thus even though we have a hierarchy

they don't morally legislate

ours priste cna marry and have kids

they belive in Bottom up controll instead of top down like Catholsism.


we also helped Jews and other displaced people and gave them fake Orthodox passports in WW2


we also held them off for a month in Greece

I know two of my Great uncles were 4 star Generals who were aasasinated by Nazis, and commies


I believ in INSTITUTION FOR RELIGION

the indcividual is weak when compared to to the forces of Greed, and Maniplution esp now

being private about is selfish

[archive_Ulter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OMEGAone:
Greek Orthodoxy rebelled form Catholosism

becuase we belive the Spirit of the Church is in the population thus even though we have a hierarchy

they don't morally legislate

ours priste cna marry and have kids

they belive in Bottom up controll instead of top down like Catholsism.


we also helped Jews and other displaced people and gave them fake Orthodox passports in WW2


we also held them off for a month in Greece

I know two of my Great uncles were 4 star Generals who were aasasinated by Nazis, and commies


I believ in INSTITUTION FOR RELIGION

the indcividual is weak when compared to to the forces of Greed, and Maniplution esp now

being private about is selfish<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My family ran the southern Illinois underground railroad. My Mother's great aunt Clara Barton founded the American Red Cross. Those organizations helped or help more people than any other and they don't need to include religion. So it's pretty obvious that you can help people without it.

Some religious organizations do some good. But they are also responsible for The Crusades, The Inquisition, and The Holocaust (funny you mention the Nazis because they were carrying out God's will too according to them). All tolled, over the last 2000 years, religion has been used to do more harm than good if you consider lives taken and/or tortured vs those saved. And I don't mean "spiritually saved" I mean literally saved.

If being private about it is being selfish then Jesus had it all wrong.

Jesus was Private in his personal connection as all of us should be

but don't kid your self he was VERY PROACTIVE as were many relgiuos leaders.



Martin Luther King on Speaking out abotu rights, Jesus in the Temple throwing out Money Lenders out, and healing


to live in ones cubby hole latching on to their own salvation is essentially selfish

kinda like the Psyshosis (thanks for teaching me that word) that the Christian Right is caught in or the Orthodox Jews, or radical Muslims


to live for your self and only you people is a ruse and a bakrupt way of living for inevitable your group will collide with the misterious "other"

we need to be proactive and unite the world in a Universal
but never lift a hand on each other while doing it

that why Noble non vilonet religions shoudl intemingle and mesh together....

if you look at pure SUNNI muslim bleives it hints at this

also Ulter

your a "see-er" form what I can tell and so is Frackal

Huck, 2Thick, and some others

and sometimes I think you must put your self in the shoes of the VERY SIMPLE PERSON

then need Freind to help them Proactively, and passivly

Evil is way to good at exploiting these people

so institution that are communal are very helfull for these peopel

[VOX - DEI]

Well here goes an hour of my time….

Hay there Frackal, it’s me, you know Zeacky from EF. We have had many of the same ideas. I idealistically align my self with the libertarian party. I however do not hold my brethren in such high esteem as to recommend that libertarians become the third party or that there should even be a third party. Our current system has evolved into a much more realistic form of government than what was intended. Maybe if eugenics was successful we would be better off with a libertarian form of government (remember this is a dirty 62/64 Mexican talking here…hehe).

Sorry about that, let’s get to the issue at hand.

“If I believed that my support would end as it should.

The possibility of it concerns me quite a bit, but based on my own analysis I do not consider it the dominant reason.

- I do suspect that they were expecting to find WMDs.

- I think their goal is to try to foster change in the middle east in an effort to attack the root of terrorism, rather than just snipping away at the leaves.

(The root is religion and then there is the fact the U.S. likes to piss people off. So what you are saying is that you want to attack their religion [“don’t twist my words”]? I don’t really have a problem with that although we are going to need to get rid of Christianity as well. But the ramifications are unacceptable so that won’t do. Iraq is the root of terrorism? Saddam ran a secular government, sort of like the one we should have here, cept der to many of dem Bible tumpers. Terrorists who plot to kill U.S. citizens have lived in Iraq? If so I was not aware of this dev. If Russia occupied the U.S. I may be one as well. Oh you mean ones that were already training to be terrorists or those that had already committed acts of terror? Or do you mean Saddam was working with religious terrorists who meant harm to the US and its people? By the word “change” do you mean our form of government? Or democracy? I’m sorry I’m becoming a nit pick. What do you get with an independent democracy whose people have all the same ideals, uh Iran perhaps? I would prefer a secular dictator over a democracy full of Muslims or for those matter Christian extremists. Then again all those with religious beliefs are extreme to me. Hell any belief for that matter, I think Chris Rock said it best in the movie Dogma “you can change an idea, but it’s much harder to change a belief” or something to that affect. Hell I’m an extremists after reading this over again. Then again this is only one day’s ramblings. Fostering change in the Middle East just happens to piss most Muslims off. Did I mention that Islam is the predominate religion in the Middle East?)


- Oil was very likely a factor. An unfortunate reality. ( To tell you the truth that’s the only good reason for invading Iraq, control, control of the world, world domination. Speaking of that; Imperialism, Iraq the 51st. state to be added to the union, Iran the 52nd. I like that idea much more than the crap we have going on there now. Do you not support the best interests of the United States? Do you have no interest in the future? Do you want the future to go to shit because the past fucked up? No, then why not support oil backed imperialism preferably by highly regulated nonrenewable resource companies unlike the energy pigs we have today.)

These are some of the reasons in my view.


Israel is obviously not a muslim state and the fighting is largely for religious reasons. I believe btw that many Jewish interests are largely supportive of Bush's actions.”


Invading Iraq to make the world a better place, I could see that as a good reason to invade Iraq, start small then move on the larger and larger countries. Bush may very well still believe that invading Iraq was for a just cause, just like Hitler thought killing all other races would make the world as a whole a better place. I may be jumping a bit but it’s the same thought process used to come to these conclusions. Absolutism at its best is just wrong and I’m not talking about the form of government.