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Curious George
08-11-2004, 07:54 PM
August 4th, 2004 11:37 am
The Case Against George W. Bush - by Ron Reagan


by Ron Reagan / Esquire

It may have been the guy in the hood teetering on the stool, electrodes clamped to his genitals. Or smirking Lynndie England and her leash. Maybe it was the smarmy memos tapped out by soft-fingered lawyers itching to justify such barbarism. The grudging, lunatic retreat of the neocons from their long-standing assertion that Saddam was in cahoots with Osama didn't hurt. Even the Enron audiotapes and their celebration of craven sociopathy likely played a part. As a result of all these displays and countless smaller ones, you could feel, a couple of months back, as summer spread across the country, the ground shifting beneath your feet. Not unlike that scene in The Day After Tomorrow, then in theaters, in which the giant ice shelf splits asunder, this was more a paradigm shift than anything strictly tectonic. No cataclysmic ice age, admittedly, yet something was in the air, and people were inhaling deeply. I began to get calls from friends whose parents had always voted Republican, "but not this time." There was the staid Zbigniew Brzezinski on the staid NewsHour with Jim Lehrer sneering at the "Orwellian language" flowing out of the Pentagon. Word spread through the usual channels that old hands from the days of Bush the Elder were quietly (but not too quietly) appalled by his son's misadventure in Iraq. Suddenly, everywhere you went, a surprising number of folks seemed to have had just about enough of what the Bush administration was dishing out. A fresh age appeared on the horizon, accompanied by the sound of scales falling from people's eyes. It felt something like a demonstration of that highest of American prerogatives and the most deeply cherished American freedom: dissent.

Oddly, even my father's funeral contributed. Throughout that long, stately, overtelevised week in early June, items would appear in the newspaper discussing the Republicans' eagerness to capitalize (subtly, tastefully) on the outpouring of affection for my father and turn it to Bush's advantage for the fall election. The familiar "Heir to Reagan" puffballs were reinflated and loosed over the proceedings like (subtle, tasteful) Mylar balloons. Predictably, this backfired. People were treated to a side-by-side comparison—Ronald W. Reagan versus George W. Bush—and it's no surprise who suffered for it. Misty-eyed with nostalgia, people set aside old political gripes for a few days and remembered what friend and foe always conceded to Ronald Reagan: He was damned impressive in the role of leader of the free world. A sign in the crowd, spotted during the slow roll to the Capitol rotunda, seemed to sum up the mood—a portrait of my father and the words NOW THERE WAS A PRESIDENT.

The comparison underscored something important. And the guy on the stool, Lynndie, and her grinning cohorts, they brought the word: The Bush administration can't be trusted. The parade of Bush officials before various commissions and committees—Paul Wolfowitz, who couldn't quite remember how many young Americans had been sacrificed on the altar of his ideology; John Ashcroft, lip quivering as, for a delicious, fleeting moment, it looked as if Senator Joe Biden might just come over the table at him—these were a continuing reminder. The Enron creeps, too—a reminder of how certain environments and particular habits of mind can erode common decency. People noticed. A tipping point had been reached. The issue of credibility was back on the table. The L-word was in circulation. Not the tired old bromide liberal. That's so 1988. No, this time something much more potent: liar.

Politicians will stretch the truth. They'll exaggerate their accomplishments, paper over their gaffes. Spin has long been the lingua franca of the political realm. But George W. Bush and his administration have taken "normal" mendacity to a startling new level far beyond lies of convenience. On top of the usual massaging of public perception, they traffic in big lies, indulge in any number of symptomatic small lies, and, ultimately, have come to embody dishonesty itself. They are a lie. And people, finally, have started catching on.

None of this, needless to say, guarantees Bush a one-term presidency. The far-right wing of the country—nearly one third of us by some estimates—continues to regard all who refuse to drink the Kool-Aid (liberals, rationalists, Europeans, et cetera) as agents of Satan. Bush could show up on video canoodling with Paris Hilton and still bank their vote. Right-wing talking heads continue painting anyone who fails to genuflect deeply enough as a "hater," and therefore a nut job, probably a crypto-Islamist car bomber. But these protestations have taken on a hysterical, almost comically desperate tone. It's one thing to get trashed by Michael Moore. But when Nobel laureates, a vast majority of the scientific community, and a host of current and former diplomats, intelligence operatives, and military officials line up against you, it becomes increasingly difficult to characterize the opposition as fringe wackos.

Does anyone really favor an administration that so shamelessly lies? One that so tenaciously clings to secrecy, not to protect the American people, but to protect itself? That so willfully misrepresents its true aims and so knowingly misleads the people from whom it derives its power? I simply cannot think so. And to come to the same conclusion does not make you guilty of swallowing some liberal critique of the Bush presidency, because that's not what this is. This is the critique of a person who thinks that lying at the top levels of his government is abhorrent. Call it the honest guy's critique of George W. Bush.

THE MOST EGREGIOUS EXAMPLES OF distortion and misdirection—which the administration even now cannot bring itself to repudiate—involve our putative "War on Terror" and our subsequent foray into Iraq.

During his campaign for the presidency, Mr. Bush pledged a more "humble" foreign policy. "I would take the use of force very seriously," he said. "I would be guarded in my approach." Other countries would resent us "if we're an arrogant nation." He sniffed at the notion of "nation building." "Our military is meant to fight and win wars. . . . And when it gets overextended, morale drops." International cooperation and consensus building would be the cornerstone of a Bush administration's approach to the larger world. Given candidate Bush's remarks, it was hard to imagine him, as president, flipping a stiff middle finger at the world and charging off adventuring in the Middle East.

But didn't 9/11 reshuffle the deck, changing everything? Didn't Mr. Bush, on September 12, 2001, awaken to the fresh realization that bad guys in charge of Islamic nations constitute an entirely new and grave threat to us and have to be ruthlessly confronted lest they threaten the American homeland again? Wasn't Saddam Hussein rushed to the front of the line because he was complicit with the hijackers and in some measure responsible for the atrocities in Washington, D. C., and at the tip of Manhattan?

Well, no.

As Bush's former Treasury secretary, Paul O'Neill, and his onetime "terror czar," Richard A. Clarke, have made clear, the president, with the enthusiastic encouragement of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz, was contemplating action against Iraq from day one. "From the start, we were building the case against Hussein and looking at how we could take him out," O'Neill said. All they needed was an excuse. Clarke got the same impression from within the White House. Afghanistan had to be dealt with first; that's where the actual perpetrators were, after all. But the Taliban was a mere appetizer; Saddam was the entrée. (Or who knows? The soup course?) It was simply a matter of convincing the American public (and our representatives) that war was justified.

The real—but elusive—prime mover behind the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden, was quickly relegated to a back burner (a staff member at Fox News—the cable-TV outlet of the Bush White House—told me a year ago that mere mention of bin Laden's name was forbidden within the company, lest we be reminded that the actual bad guy remained at large) while Saddam's Iraq became International Enemy Number One. Just like that, a country whose economy had been reduced to shambles by international sanctions, whose military was less than half the size it had been when the U. S. Army rolled over it during the first Gulf war, that had extensive no-flight zones imposed on it in the north and south as well as constant aerial and satellite surveillance, and whose lethal weapons and capacity to produce such weapons had been destroyed or seriously degraded by UN inspection teams became, in Mr. Bush's words, "a threat of unique urgency" to the most powerful nation on earth.

Fanciful but terrifying scenarios were introduced: Unmanned aircraft, drones, had been built for missions targeting the U. S., Bush told the nation. "We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud," National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice deadpanned to CNN. And, Bush maintained, "Iraq could decide on any given day to provide a biological or chemical weapon to a terrorist group or individual terrorists." We "know" Iraq possesses such weapons, Rumsfeld and Vice-President Cheney assured us. We even "know" where they are hidden. After several months of this mumbo jumbo, 70 percent of Americans had embraced the fantasy that Saddam destroyed the World Trade Center.

ALL THESE ASSERTIONS have proved to be baseless and, we've since discovered, were regarded with skepticism by experts at the time they were made. But contrary opinions were derided, ignored, or covered up in the rush to war. Even as of this writing, Dick Cheney clings to his mad assertion that Saddam was somehow at the nexus of a worldwide terror network.

And then there was Abu Ghraib. Our "war president" may have been justified in his assumption that Americans are a warrior people. He pushed the envelope in thinking we'd be content as an occupying power, but he was sadly mistaken if he thought that ordinary Americans would tolerate an image of themselves as torturers. To be fair, the torture was meant to be secret. So were the memos justifying such treatment that had floated around the White House, Pentagon, and Justice Department for more than a year before the first photos came to light. The neocons no doubt appreciate that few of us have the stones to practice the New Warfare. Could you slip a pair of women's panties over the head of a naked, cowering stranger while forcing him to masturbate? What would you say while sodomizing him with a toilet plunger? Is keeping someone awake till he hallucinates inhumane treatment or merely "sleep management"?

Most of us know the answers to these questions, so it was incumbent upon the administration to pretend that Abu Ghraib was an aberration, not policy. Investigations, we were assured, were already under way; relevant bureaucracies would offer unstinting cooperation; the handful of miscreants would be sternly disciplined. After all, they didn't "represent the best of what America's all about." As anyone who'd watched the proceedings of the 9/11 Commission could have predicted, what followed was the usual administration strategy of stonewalling, obstruction, and obfuscation. The appointment of investigators was stalled; documents were withheld, including the full report by Major General Antonio Taguba, who headed the Army's primary investigation into the abuses at Abu Ghraib. A favorite moment for many featured John McCain growing apoplectic as Donald Rumsfeld and an entire tableful of army brass proved unable to answer the simple question Who was in charge at Abu Ghraib?

The Bush administration no doubt had its real reasons for invading and occupying Iraq. They've simply chosen not to share them with the American public. They sought justification for ignoring the Geneva Convention and other statutes prohibiting torture and inhumane treatment of prisoners but were loath to acknowledge as much. They may have ideas worth discussing, but they don't welcome the rest of us in the conversation. They don't trust us because they don't dare expose their true agendas to the light of day. There is a surreal quality to all this: Occupation is liberation; Iraq is sovereign, but we're in control; Saddam is in Iraqi custody, but we've got him; we'll get out as soon as an elected Iraqi government asks us, but we'll be there for years to come. Which is what we counted on in the first place, only with rose petals and easy coochie.

This Möbius reality finds its domestic analogue in the perversely cynical "Clear Skies" and "Healthy Forests" sloganeering at Bush's EPA and in the administration's irresponsible tax cutting and other fiscal shenanigans. But the Bush administration has always worn strangely tinted shades, and you wonder to what extent Mr. Bush himself lives in a world of his own imagining.

And chances are your America and George W. Bush's America are not the same place. If you are dead center on the earning scale in real-world twenty-first-century America, you make a bit less than $32,000 a year, and $32,000 is not a sum that Mr. Bush has ever associated with getting by in his world. Bush, who has always managed to fail upwards in his various careers, has never had a job the way you have a job—where not showing up one morning gets you fired, costing you your health benefits. He may find it difficult to relate personally to any of the nearly two million citizens who've lost their jobs under his administration, the first administration since Herbert Hoover's to post a net loss of jobs. Mr. Bush has never had to worry that he couldn't afford the best available health care for his children. For him, forty-three million people without health insurance may be no more than a politically inconvenient abstraction. When Mr. Bush talks about the economy, he is not talking about your economy. His economy is filled with pals called Kenny-boy who fly around in their own airplanes. In Bush's economy, his world, friends relocate offshore to avoid paying taxes. Taxes are for chumps like you. You are not a friend. You're the help. When the party Mr. Bush is hosting in his world ends, you'll be left picking shrimp toast out of the carpet.

ALL ADMINISTRATIONS WILL DISSEMBLE, distort, or outright lie when their backs are against the wall, when honesty begins to look like political suicide. But this administration seems to lie reflexively, as if it were simply the easiest option for busy folks with a lot on their minds. While the big lies are more damning and of immeasurably greater import to the nation, it is the small, unnecessary prevarications that may be diagnostic. Who lies when they don't have to? When the simple truth, though perhaps embarrassing in the short run, is nevertheless in one's long-term self-interest? Why would a president whose calling card is his alleged rock-solid integrity waste his chief asset for penny-ante stakes? Habit, perhaps. Or an inability to admit even small mistakes.

Mr. Bush's tendency to meander beyond the bounds of truth was evident during the 2000 campaign but was largely ignored by the mainstream media. His untruths simply didn't fit the agreed-upon narrative. While generally acknowledged to be lacking in experience, depth, and other qualifications typically considered useful in a leader of the free world, Bush was portrayed as a decent fellow nonetheless, one whose straightforwardness was a given. None of that "what the meaning of is is" business for him. And, God knows, no furtive, taxpayer-funded fellatio sessions with the interns. Al Gore, on the other hand, was depicted as a dubious self-reinventor, stained like a certain blue dress by Bill Clinton's prurient transgressions. He would spend valuable weeks explaining away statements—"I invented the Internet"—that he never made in the first place. All this left the coast pretty clear for Bush.

Scenario typical of the 2000 campaign: While debating Al Gore, Bush tells two obvious—if not exactly earth-shattering—lies and is not challenged. First, he claims to have supported a patient's bill of rights while governor of Texas. This is untrue. He, in fact, vigorously resisted such a measure, only reluctantly bowing to political reality and allowing it to become law without his signature. Second, he announces that Gore has outspent him during the campaign. The opposite is true: Bush has outspent Gore. These misstatements are briefly acknowledged in major press outlets, which then quickly return to the more germane issues of Gore's pancake makeup and whether a certain feminist author has counseled him to be more of an "alpha male."

Having gotten away with such witless falsities, perhaps Mr. Bush and his team felt somehow above day-to-day truth. In any case, once ensconced in the White House, they picked up where they left off.

IN THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH and confusion of 9/11, Bush, who on that day was in Sarasota, Florida, conducting an emergency reading of "The Pet Goat," was whisked off to Nebraska aboard Air Force One. While this may have been entirely sensible under the chaotic circumstances—for all anyone knew at the time, Washington might still have been under attack—the appearance was, shall we say, less than gallant. So a story was concocted: There had been a threat to Air Force One that necessitated the evasive maneuver. Bush's chief political advisor, Karl Rove, cited "specific" and "credible" evidence to that effect. The story quickly unraveled. In truth, there was no such threat.

Then there was Bush's now infamous photo-op landing aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln and his subsequent speech in front of a large banner emblazoned MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. The banner, which loomed in the background as Bush addressed the crew, became problematic as it grew clear that the mission in Iraq—whatever that may have been—was far from accomplished. "Major combat operations," as Bush put it, may have technically ended, but young Americans were still dying almost daily. So the White House dealt with the questionable banner in a manner befitting a president pledged to "responsibility and accountability": It blamed the sailors. No surprise, a bit of digging by journalists revealed the banner and its premature triumphalism to be the work of the White House communications office.

More serious by an order of magnitude was the administration's dishonesty concerning pre-9/11 terror warnings. As questions first arose about the country's lack of preparedness in the face of terrorist assault, Condoleezza Rice was dispatched to the pundit arenas to assure the nation that "no one could have imagined terrorists using aircraft as weapons." In fact, terrorism experts had warned repeatedly of just such a calamity. In June 2001, CIA director George Tenet sent Rice an intelligence report warning that "it is highly likely that a significant Al Qaeda attack is in the near future, within several weeks." Two intelligence briefings given to Bush in the summer of 2001 specifically connected Al Qaeda to the imminent danger of hijacked planes being used as weapons. According to The New York Times, after the second of these briefings, titled "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside United States," was delivered to the president at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, in August, Bush "broke off from work early and spent most of the day fishing." This was the briefing Dr. Rice dismissed as "historical" in her testimony before the 9/11 Commission.

What's odd is that none of these lies were worth the breath expended in the telling. If only for self-serving political reasons, honesty was the way to go. The flight of Air Force One could easily have been explained in terms of security precautions taken in the confusion of momentous events. As for the carrier landing, someone should have fallen on his or her sword at the first hint of trouble: We told the president he needed to do it; he likes that stuff and was gung-ho; we figured, What the hell?; it was a mistake. The banner? We thought the sailors would appreciate it. In retrospect, also a mistake. Yup, we sure feel dumb now. Owning up to the 9/11 warnings would have entailed more than simple embarrassment. But done forthrightly and immediately, an honest reckoning would have earned the Bush team some respect once the dust settled. Instead, by needlessly tap-dancing, Bush's White House squandered vital credibility, turning even relatively minor gaffes into telling examples of its tendency to distort and evade the truth.

But image is everything in this White House, and the image of George Bush as a noble and infallible warrior in the service of his nation must be fanatically maintained, because behind the image lies...nothing? As Jonathan Alter of Newsweek has pointed out, Bush has "never fully inhabited" the presidency. Bush apologists can smilingly excuse his malopropisms and vagueness as the plainspokenness of a man of action, but watching Bush flounder when attempting to communicate extemporaneously, one is left with the impression that he is ineloquent not because he can't speak but because he doesn't bother to think.

GEORGE W. BUSH PROMISED to "change the tone in Washington" and ran for office as a moderate, a "compassionate conservative," in the focus-group-tested sloganeering of his campaign. Yet he has governed from the right wing of his already conservative party, assiduously tending a "base" that includes, along with the expected Fortune 500 fat cats, fiscal evangelicals who talk openly of doing away with Social Security and Medicare, of shrinking government to the size where they can, in tax radical Grover Norquist's phrase, "drown it in the bathtub." That base also encompasses a healthy share of anti-choice zealots, homophobic bigots, and assorted purveyors of junk science. Bush has tossed bones to all of them—"partial birth" abortion legislation, the promise of a constitutional amendment banning marriage between homosexuals, federal roadblocks to embryonic-stem-cell research, even comments suggesting presidential doubts about Darwinian evolution. It's not that Mr. Bush necessarily shares their worldview; indeed, it's unclear whether he embraces any coherent philosophy. But this president, who vowed to eschew politics in favor of sound policy, panders nonetheless in the interest of political gain. As John DiIulio, Bush's former head of the Office of Community and Faith-Based Initiatives, once told this magazine, "What you've got is everything—and I mean everything—being run by the political arm."

This was not what the American electorate opted for when, in 2000, by a slim but decisive margin of more than half a million votes, they chose...the other guy. Bush has never had a mandate. Surveys indicate broad public dissatisfaction with his domestic priorities. How many people would have voted for Mr. Bush in the first place had they understood his eagerness to pass on crushing debt to our children or seen his true colors regarding global warming and the environment? Even after 9/11, were people really looking to be dragged into an optional war under false pretenses?

If ever there was a time for uniting and not dividing, this is it. Instead, Mr. Bush governs as if by divine right, seeming to actually believe that a wise God wants him in the White House and that by constantly evoking the horrible memory of September 11, 2001, he can keep public anxiety stirred up enough to carry him to another term.

UNDERSTANDABLY, SOME SUPPORTERS of Mr. Bush's will believe I harbor a personal vendetta against the man, some seething resentment. One conservative commentator, based on earlier remarks I've made, has already discerned "jealousy" on my part; after all, Bush, the son of a former president, now occupies that office himself, while I, most assuredly, will not. Truth be told, I have no personal feelings for Bush at all. I hardly know him, having met him only twice, briefly and uneventfully—once during my father's presidency and once during my father's funeral. I'll acknowledge occasional annoyance at the pretense that he's somehow a clone of my father, but far from threatening, I see this more as silly and pathetic. My father, acting roles excepted, never pretended to be anyone but himself. His Republican party, furthermore, seems a far cry from the current model, with its cringing obeisance to the religious Right and its kill-anything-that-moves attack instincts. Believe it or not, I don't look in the mirror every morning and see my father looming over my shoulder. I write and speak as nothing more or less than an American citizen, one who is plenty angry about the direction our country is being dragged by the current administration. We have reached a critical juncture in our nation's history, one ripe with both danger and possibility. We need leadership with the wisdom to prudently confront those dangers and the imagination to boldly grasp the possibilities. Beyond issues of fiscal irresponsibility and ill-advised militarism, there is a question of trust. George W. Bush and his allies don't trust you and me. Why on earth, then, should we trust them?

Fortunately, we still live in a democratic republic. The Bush team cannot expect a cabal of right-wing justices to once again deliver the White House. Come November 2, we will have a choice: We can embrace a lie, or we can restore a measure of integrity to our government. We can choose, as a bumper sticker I spotted in Seattle put it, SOMEONE ELSE FOR PRESIDENT.

Take Good Care,

Cg

Monster
08-11-2004, 08:08 PM
Now a word from Ex-President Ronald Reagan:

"Help, help, Im burning in hell!"

-------------------------
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

Pharm Animal
08-12-2004, 03:26 PM
Monster, I'm not going to argue for nor against the man, but your jest comment about the former president is terrible.

Monster
08-12-2004, 03:31 PM
At least I didnt give a description of that bastards eternal torment... http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

-------------------------
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

archive_Bjaarki
08-13-2004, 11:42 AM
Thanks so much, CG, for that synopsis of what I'm sure history will prove to be the most inept White House in history. Well, maybe U.S. Grant's administration was worse, but at least Grant won the Civil War for us ... hmmm ... even if that did have the unfortunate effect of keeping Texas in the Union ... pity, that .....

Read "American Dynasty" by Kevin Phillips, a Republican commentator and former Nixon aide. It lays out the whole history of Bush's venality which, BTW, goes back not 1, not 2, but 4 generations.

It's cool. We lived through 8 years of Ronald Reagan, we can survive 4 (even 8, if need be) of George W. Bush.

Bjaarki

... Then, do what you have to do.

Curious George
08-13-2004, 11:26 PM
I'll check that book out B. I just bought the "9/11 Commission Report" and "Imperial Hubris" today.

I just hope the sonofabush doesn't get re-elected.

Take Good Care,

Cg

Monster
08-27-2004, 05:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Frackal:
And why would Reagan be burning in hell Monster?

[This message was edited by Frackal on 08-22-04 at 02:31 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh where to begin...

* AIDS maybe? He did all he could to delay an yresearch into a cure, fought educating people on the disease and ignored virtually every bit of advice given to him by national disease experts.

* He furthered the cause of breaking trade unions more than any president before him (or after) and destroyed the lifes of working families (didnt affect upper class tax breaks though).

* Education? He called for an end to free tuition for state college and university students, demanded a 20% annual cut accross the board for higher education funding, cut construction funds for state campuses... but of course the people he TRUELY represented didnt need any of those breaks anyway.
Lets not forget his statements about students protesting at Kent State! The "Great Communicator" said the studernts were "brats, freaks and cowardly fascists." His remarks on restoring order on unruly campuses were "If it takes a bloodbath, let's get it over with. No more appeasement!"

Well.. we all know how well the "Kent State Affair" went (how many students were shot to death again?).
But he also opposed funding fopr basic education...

* During his terms of office statistics showed that at one point 11 million children were living in poverty, 275,000 children were in foster homes and some 100,000 children under age sixteen were homeless. The Gipper said that these statistics were just "sociological flimflammery" and that the way to fix this problem was not "by throwing money at it."

* But he was a friend of the environment, right? In 1979 Reagan stated that "80% of air pollution comes not from chimneys and auto exhaust pipes, but from plants and trees."

* During Reagan's presidency he systematically dismantled programs that provided birth control services to the poor, both in the US, where he stopped Federal Programs, and internationally, when he stopped funding all International Aid that supported family planning.

* He described medicaid recipients as "...a faceless mass, waiting for handouts." Thought his policies were the reason many of them were in that position (they were waiting for those "trickle down economics" to trickle down I guess?)

* His political legacy?
Statistically Reagans admininstration was one of the most corrupt in American history, including by one estimate 31 Reagan era convictions, including 14 because of Iran-Contra and 16 in the Department of Housing & Urban Development scandal. By comparison 40 government officials were indicted or convicted in the wake of Watergate.
138 appointees of the Reagan administration either resigned under an ethical cloud or were criminally indicted.

* Do I need to mention the Savings and Loan Scandal?

* Or Iran/Contra?
The administration in 1984 secretly sold arms to Iran -- which the United States considered a supporter of terrorism -- to raise cash for Nicaraguan contra rebels, despite a congressional ban on support for the Latin American insurgency. An independent investigation concluded that the arms sales to Iran operations "were carried out with the knowledge of, among others, President Ronald Reagan [and] Vice President George Bush," and that "large volumes of highly relevant, contemporaneously created documents were systematically and willfully withheld from investigators by several Reagan Administration officials." . . . Lawrence E. Walsh, the independent counsel who ran the inquiry

* Or a tripled national debt?

* His administration was responsible for numerous brutal actions in Latin America, including massacres in El Salvador and the war against Nicaragua.

I could go on more but:

#1. Thats more than enough as it is

#2. Right Wingers will put their own spin on ANYTHING and make it seem so much more righteous.

#3. The "Chicago" post has pretty much established you as a pretty far right type, so there is no need to debate this with you.

-------------------------
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

archive_Frackal
08-28-2004, 05:34 AM
1. I'm a Libertarian, not a republican or 'far right type.' Just someone with an opinion different from yours. You can cease the personal digs, there is no need.

2. I was curious to why you disliked him. I won't debate again.

Monster
08-28-2004, 08:43 AM
I apologise. Your pro-Bush stance made me question your being an actual Libertarian... most Libertarians seem to be Republicans who just dont like being called Republicans, but Im not saying thats you per se.

My family and most close to me suffered greatly throught the Reagan/Bush Regiem and it just bugs me when I see all those weepy eyed "Wasnt he great?" stories and people thinking its wrong to acknowledge Reagans negative aspects because hes dead.

It isnt you personally.
People here in the Motor City have felt the brunt of Republican policies for a long time and it has made many people very bitter.

Sorry to be harsh http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-------------------------
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

archive_Frackal
08-28-2004, 11:48 AM
Thanks. I do like hearing different opinions. I just finished reading a biography of Reagan which was very positive towards him.

For my own views, I'm definitely conservative on the fiscal side, but believe, generally, as long as one is not causing harm or theft upon another than they ought to have the freedom to live their lives without moral government intervention.

I think both parties fall far short in that regard. They don't even acknowledge the idea of keeping the government out of morality. http://www.anabolicfitness.net/smileys/elephant.gif

Monster
08-28-2004, 12:03 PM
Oh, without a doubt!
I just think that now isnt the time for a third party (in the election race that is... our system is built upon our right to organize with like minded individuals).
Third parties have pretty much been a vote for the Republican candidate (which is fine if thats what you want).
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

-------------------------
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

archive_Frackal
08-28-2004, 02:43 PM
Yes I agree. I would say now, given the potential stakes, and the closeness of the race, it might be wise to pick which side you would prefer if you had to choose between the two. That's what I'm doing in fact.

archive_Bjaarki
08-29-2004, 07:58 AM
I'm not sure what Libertarianism is. I mean, I know what it is, in theory, but not what it is, in practice. One of my wife's best friends is married to the guy from our congressional district who runs, every two years, for our congressional seat under the Libertarian banner. I was really put off by this guy. He had nothing but answers, you know? Not a single question about anything. Just answers. I don't trust people who have a lot more answers than questions. It's usually because they haven't thought things through too deeply. So that kind of soured me on the Libertarian thing. On the other hand, my personal physician is a Libertarian. He's totally cool with my anabolic use, so I guess that's a "plus" in the other direction.

On this whole "conservative vs. liberal" thing, I'm not the first to observe that one of the original conservative, like Barry Goldwater, would not recognize what the movement he helped found has become. Conservatism used to be a Western thing - low govt debt/spending, and a minimum instrusion into private life. The low govt spending thing never appealed to me - I believe that wealth redistribution is not a bad thing, I'd rather live in a welfare state that under an oligarchy - but that's the way conservativism used to be construed when it was a Western thing

But now, it seems to have been turned on its head and to have become a Southern thing (no anti-Southern rant coming here, I promise). High govt debt/spending (mostly on military stuff), and maximal intrusion into private life. It's difficult to imagine many Republicans, much less conservative, and still much less Libertarians, signing on to that.

You know, in the latter part of the 19th century, the Republican Party was the progressive wing of politics, and the Democrats represented the status quo. By the latter part of the 20th century, that had flipped 180 degrees.

Maybe this is how it happens, and we'll see another u-turn in the identity of the national parties in our lifetime.

Interestng stuff .....

Frackal, I wonder if you have a political vulnerability in being attracted to "hollow men." That's not a flame. I'm wondering, is all. Your attraction to GWB and RR makes me wonder that. They're increasingly common in politics.

Bjaarki

... Then, do what you have to do.

Monster
08-29-2004, 09:07 AM
I think Reagan paved the way for the "idiot president".
He made it ok to be reading from a teleprompter and have no idea what you were even saying. When left to his own devices wopuld say things like he did about trees and grass causing air polution, not cars and chimneys... because when he had no one around to tell him what to say, his own rank stupidity seeped out.

A lot like a certain "W" we have now doing the same thing.

The "hollow men" point is an interesting one. BEcause that does seem to be a very valid point and applies to W and RR pretty well.

Little substance, and very, very little actual stances on real issues, but they will spend vast amounts of time going on about the more hollow issues.
Bush builds a campaign on "family values", saying he is "Pro Family". This is extremely vauge, and probably meant to be so, and you cant help but notice that there is then an undercurrent of "my competitor must then be anit-family".

Republicans have always built campaigns on hot-button issues like gun control, welfare, abortion (Remeber Geo. Sr being interviewed and asked what he would do if his daughter were pregnant??? He said it wouldnt be his place to tell her what to do. Hes her father, but its her body.), and now gay marriage.

Those issues have nothing at all to do with the state of this country, and no matter what happens in regards to those issues this country will not be in any better or worse state than it was.

The irony is that so many people will vote republican based on gun control and abortion and ignore other REAL issues.
Come on. The whole time Clinton was in nobody lost thier guns, and abortions werent being given out for free at ice cream stands.
And W's four years certainly didnt see abortion made illegal.
These are ridiculous hot-button issues made to blind narrow/simple minded people from the facts.

These "Hollow Men" are no substance and are all big speeches and big stances on moot issues.

-------------------------
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

archive_Frackal
08-29-2004, 09:15 PM
[QUOTE]
Frackal, I wonder if you have a political vulnerability in being attracted to "hollow men." That's not a flame. I'm wondering, is all. Your attraction to GWB and RR makes me wonder that. They're increasingly common in politics.

Bjaarki

[QUOTE]


I don't take it as a flame, but I do wonder why on here of all places, that stands for the free and pure exchange of ideas, every other time I enter in a non-personal, political opinion, my character comes into question.

The question btw is invalid because the premise is incorrect.

It relies first on the notion that I'm attracted to George Bush or Ronald Reagan the man. Their personability in front of a camera has little bearing on whether or not I will support them.

Their policies are what garner or lose my support.

Bush I support, though not especially enthusiastically, and I've read a few biographies on Ronald Reagan that challenged a few commonly held notions about him and found I liked the man described in the books even though he had clear faults like any other.

I again though would like to put forth the suggestion that we all discuss our ideas without demonization and wanton assignment of character traits to each other, as it will be almost surely innacurate and diversionary from productive discourse at best, and souring and fracturing at worst.

archive_Mr. Nobody
08-30-2004, 05:14 AM
Frackal, maybe I missed it but could you please repeat what policices of W make you support him?

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

Monster
08-30-2004, 01:38 PM
The Bushes and Reagan are in mny opinion three of the most hatefilled, evil politicians to ever hold office... and they do it with a smile on their faces.

Frakal, you claim part of being Libertarian is the desire to keep religon and politics seperate, W is notorious for doing quite the opposite. Almost all of his "policies" are based on supposed Christian Values.

Here is a quote from his book "A Charge To Keep" Chapter 10, page 40.

"I could not be governor if I did not believe in a divine plan that supersedes all human plans. Politics is a fickle business. Polls change. Today's friend is tomorrow's adversary. People lavish praise and attention. Many times it is genuine; sometimes it is not. Yet I build my life on a foundation that will not shift. My faith frees me. Frees me to put the problem of the moment in proper perspective. Frees me to make decisions that others might not like.

I perfer well thought out policies, not policies that Jesus has guided a leader to make... but thats just me.

-------------------------
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

archive_Ulter
08-30-2004, 01:46 PM
Just curious, if Jesus guides you to take a certain course and it's wrong, and then he guides you to take another course, is Jesus a flip-flopper?

archive_Mr. Nobody
08-30-2004, 01:54 PM
Monster, W came up with sentences like that?.....Nah I can't believe that

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

archive_Bjaarki
08-30-2004, 02:25 PM
Frackal, I have enjoyed much of what you've said, though I disagree with your politics, as much of them as I know. I find you to be articulate, patient, respectiful, honest about your feelings, and in many ways a model of the kind of guys we like to see around here. I hope the rough treatment you've gotten on the political front will not disincline you to remain here. Nothing is more boring than a choir that always sings the same tune.

I didn't mean to cast a personal aspersion your way by asking if your are politically vulnerable to the allure of hollow men. Your character was nowhere in my mind. Questions of strength and content of character come up pretty damned often around here in connection with my name, and I certainly don't want to paint you with that brush.

But what about you I've failed to connect is what Monster, Ulter, Mr. N and many others here have pointed to. And that's your self-description as Libertarian, but your political preference for men like GWB (I'm assuming, perhaps wrongly, that you were too young to have had that as well for RR) whose policies seem antithetical to your beliefs and interests. Monster can make that case much better than I, so I won't bother.

So, if it's not the content of these men that attracts you (by "attract" I mean their tendency to tempt you to vote for them, nothing more), then it might be their lack of content, what I call their "emptiness" that attracts you. I think that is true of a lot of voters, sadly. When a space is empty, we tend to pour into it lots of stuff from our own heads - the space, the person, becomes what psychologists call a "projective object" - and I was wondering if its what you project into these men that elicits your admiration and support. It might be so, maintaining a position as a hollow man, as a projective object is a HUGE political advantage, as the "down-to-earth," "grandfatherly" and "deeply principled" Ronald Reagan so grandly demonstrated. We poured all that is good, hopeful and optimistic into him, and he soaked it up, reflected it right back, and "became" those things. It was an amazing demonstration of Freudian principles, carried out on a national, even a world, stage.

Bottom line here is, we're confused, bro. There is nothing in the substance of these men that could elicit admiration and support, especially from a Libertarian. Help us connect your political identity with the profiles of these men, and maybe we'll shut up.

Bjaarki

... Then, do what you have to do.

PQ
08-30-2004, 02:54 PM
I love it when you do that...

Monster
08-30-2004, 05:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ulter:
Just curious, if Jesus guides you to take a certain course and it's wrong, and then he guides you to take another course, is Jesus a flip-flopper?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess that makes Jesus anti-family also???

-------------------------
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

Monster
08-30-2004, 05:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Nobody:
Monster, W came up with sentences like that?.....Nah I can't believe that
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He had a ghost writer. The actual transcript went like this:
W= Bush, GW= Ghost Writer


W: "Me like run Texas. Me like Jesus."

GW: "I could not be governor if I did not believe in a divine plan that supersedes all human plans."

W: "Why some people no like me? They make fun me and make me sad."

GW: "Politics is a fickle business. Polls change. Today's friend is tomorrow's adversary. People lavish praise and attention. Many times it is genuine; sometimes it is not."

W: "Me no smart. ME no know what do, so me pray and ask Jesus what do so I know I do right cuz Jesus say so!"

GW: "Yet I build my life on a foundation that will not shift. My faith frees me. Frees me to put the problem of the moment in proper perspective."

W: "Jesus tell me 'George, you must go and make all the ones who are different looking from you dead. They are different color and no pray to me and I am Jesus and they must pray to me.' So I do what Jesus say, and then Jesus say to tell people there are things called WMD there. I no know what that is, but Jesus say if I say that then other dumb people will clap and say 'Ok George, you go kill the different people' so me do it."

GW: "Frees me to make decisions that others might not like."

W: "When me done kill all the brown ones, Jesus say I go kill all the ones at a place named Core E Ah. I no know about it, but they do look different so me do it. I ask Jesus if I say more WMD are there or no."

GW: Um, I dont think we should include that Mr. President.


Thats a direct copy from the transcripts, too!

-------------------------
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

Curious George
08-30-2004, 06:43 PM
Monster....tears were coming out my eyes while I was laughing.....Michelle had to come up and see what was so funny and then she started......time to call you and heap praises on you for that one.

Take Good Care,

Cg

archive_Bjaarki
08-30-2004, 06:51 PM
Of course Jesus was a flip-flopper, Ulter.

"And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek, offer also the other." (Luke 6:28).

If that isn't a flip-flop, what is? Makes me glad I'm not a Christian. Smite an Israeli on the one cheek, and he will stitch you with his Uzi across your other .....

Monster
08-31-2004, 02:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bjaarki:
Smite an Israeli on the one cheek, and he will stitch you with his Uzi across your other .....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny you say that... my friend was born in Lebannon (and lives here now), and he used to tell me stories of how it was when he was growing up. He said that it was like a "sport" for the Israeli soldiers to wait for people coming out of shops with groceries and see if they could shoot the grocery bags out of their hands.
He said he would be walking on his mothers right holding her hand, and her grocery bag was hanging from her left hand and they would take tunrs from a block or more away trying to shoot the bag while she held it.
He said all you could do was trya nd walk as steady as you could and try to hold the bag as far from your body as possible. Because no matter where you held it they were going to try.

He said one of his earliest, lasting memeories is the sound of the laughter coming from the soldiers as the bag his mother held while she hoped enough food would remain undamaged by the time they made it home so that they could eat was filled with bullets.

This isnt real Judasim any more than what we see on American TV is real Islam.
My point (which Im sure comes as no suprise to you) is that we have invited ourselves into a war that is portrayed as a religous war, but is probably more accuratly a war that has just gone on so long that it is a tradition.

And even before the occupation... sorry, I forgot my Newspeak... the "Liberation", we sent money and arms and heavy military equipment to Isreal.

To rephrase the old saying: "the friend of my enemy is my enemy."

-------------------------
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

archive_Bjaarki
08-31-2004, 04:20 PM
My point in my post was ... well, I'm not even sure what it was. It was a silly post, and I've regretted making it ever since I posted it. I've known many Israelis, men and women, who have pretty much been in combat most of their lives. Such a history brings out ugliness, as it surely has in the Israeli Right, which shares so much with our own Right, and as it surely did in Lebanon. Much much worse than your friend's stories.

Your story brings to mind something in re the War On Iraq. I used to think it was going to be another Vietnam. Now I think it's going to be another Lebanon. It has all the earmarks: Overwhelming military force brought to bear by a Western occupier, heavy use of armor and especially airpower which tends to kill indiscriminately, lack of centralized civilian government control, proliferation of angry young muslim men led by nutjob extremist clerics, preference for suicide bombing and improvised explosive devices ... The list goes on an on. All we need are a couple of massacred refugee camps called Sabra and Shatila and the picture will be complete.

How long did it take the Israelis to withdraw from Lebanon? They're still there. And Bush declared "Mission Accomplished" in May 2003. There's a man for you who is a deep student of history .....

Bjaarki

Monster
08-31-2004, 07:26 PM
The news just had a story here (literally "just"... like a minute ago) saying that the three Arabic men who were arrested in the first week after 9/11, in which Dubyah heralded it as a "Major Terrorist Cell" have finally had their story heard and been found to be innocent.
The details were leaked to the media, so I still havent got the whole deal, but it just goes further to prove that the Bushies are using fear and hatemongering to control the people.

That isnt to say there arent any militants here, because there are. I know three or four guys who were members of Hezballah in Lebanon, but they are not antiamerican. They do recognize that the quality of life here is something to be thankful for... but they are viciously anti-jew.
Ive argued with them on many occaisions about things, quoted the Quran, you name it. But its really a hatred that is bred into a person.

We really have put our kids (i.e. soldiers) right in the middle of something we have no business in.

-------------------------
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

macdaddy
08-31-2004, 09:51 PM
Jesus was a left winger, a radical hated by the conservatives of his time. If he showed up today and preached love the way he did then, "compasionate conservatives" may just crucify him.

archive_Frackal
09-01-2004, 01:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bjaarki:
Frackal, I have enjoyed much of what you've said, though I disagree with your politics, as much of them as I know. I find you to be articulate, patient, respectiful, honest about your feelings, and in many ways a model of the kind of guys we like to see around here. I hope the rough treatment you've gotten on the political front will not disincline you to remain here. Nothing is more boring than a choir that always sings the same tune. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Not at all. I realize that politics can become very passionate, rightly so. I don't appreciate personal attacks, but I've enjoyed this board since I first came here and believe most people here are good people with good intentions, even if they insult out of passion; and so I let it roll off my back because I understand.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>


I didn't mean to cast a personal aspersion your way by asking if your are politically vulnerable to the allure of hollow men. Your character was nowhere in my mind. Questions of strength and content of character come up pretty damned often around here in connection with my name, and I certainly don't want to paint you with that brush.

But what about you I've failed to connect is what Monster, Ulter, Mr. N and many others here have pointed to. And that's your self-description as Libertarian, but your political preference for men like GWB (I'm assuming, perhaps wrongly, that you were too young to have had that as well for RR) whose policies seem antithetical to your beliefs and interests. Monster can make that case much better than I, so I won't bother. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In short:

Libertarian = fiscal conservatism, belief in merit of private enterprise.

Bush is not fiscally conservative though the wars and homeland spending are defense issues, which are one of the few areas most libertarians consider valid. (as per the Constitution.)

Kerry on the other hand is expected to spend far, far more.

Libertarians believe generally that aside from theft or force, socially the federal government should leave people alone, and allow local communities to decide their ideals. This helps create MORE choices, MORE diversity. If you don't like the evangelical influence in one town's policies/laws, you can move to another that suits you better.


*NEITHER party* is socially liberal in this sense, even if the democrats are accredited with being so.

Democratic party would NEVER acknowledge the notion of what I said above regarding churches in small towns, just as the non libertarians on the republican side wouldn't consider staying out of that area of people's lives either. BOTH parties think they know how everyone's personal lives should be lived, and want to use government to enfore it.


Libertarians generally believe true compassion is enabling individuals to help themselves, rather than just handing out entitlements. The teach a man to fish versus feed him everyday philosophy.

I believe Bush more closely reflects these principles, and his 2004 agenda on Thursday will illustrate this I think.


Kerry does not reflect these principles at all, or as well as Bush in my view.


Foreign policy: If Iraq turns out to be a mistake, it was the biggest fuck-up since Vietnam.

But given the pre-war intelligence which ***BOTH PARTIES INCLUDING KERRY*** agreed upon, and that I STRONGLY believe a democratic Iraq will go far in promoting freedom and countering the root causes of terror in the middle east, I support the decision to go at about a 55-60% margin. (As opposed to saying I support it 100%).

I don't believe John Kerry would have done all that much better with the allies. France and Germany don't part ways because they don't like George Bush, they did so out of self-interest. Bush's poor, somewhat beligerent diplomacy just encouraged them to be more beligerent in return with their opposition and that's largely why IMO it became such a spectacle.

Kerry thinks/says, with hindsight he would have STILL voted to authorize the President to go to war.

We demanded from Saddam, and he fucked around again. America was already considered very weak by terrorists, they had been taught they could attack with impunity and change US policy. (Lebanon, etc etc.)

If we were to have demanded Saddam cooperate, than not follow through on our threat of force when he did not, we would be inviting MORE tragedy from weakness. I do believe in the notion of peace through strength. And keep in mind we were attacked in '93, 96, 98, 2000, 2001. But in the 3 years since. *Thank God.*

I think Bush will be:

Better economically.
Better on social policy.
Better on Defense/ War On Terror than John Kerry.

The best? Probably not and I'm concerned about whether Bush is the right man. But I believe enough that he is to support him, over Kerry in particular.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

So, if it's not the _content_ of these men that attracts you (by "attract" I mean their tendency to tempt you to vote for them, nothing more), then it might be their _lack of content_, what I call their "emptiness" that attracts you. I think that is true of a lot of voters, sadly. When a space is empty, we tend to pour into it lots of stuff from our own heads - the space, the person, becomes what psychologists call a "projective object" - and I was wondering if its _what you project into these men_ that elicits your admiration and support. It might be so, maintaining a position as a hollow man, as a projective object is a HUGE political advantage, as the "down-to-earth," "grandfatherly" and "deeply principled" Ronald Reagan so grandly demonstrated. We poured all that is good, hopeful and optimistic into him, and he soaked it up, reflected it right back, and "became" those things. It was an amazing demonstration of Freudian principles, carried out on a national, even a world, stage.

Bottom line here is, we're confused, bro. There is nothing in the _substance_ of these men that could elicit admiration and support, especially from a Libertarian. Help us connect your political identity with the profiles of these men, and maybe we'll shut up.

Bjaarki <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


No need to shut up, I enjoy the exchange of ideas with others whose qualities I consider valuable enough that I am interested in what they have to say. (ie, most on this board.)



I do take strong exception to the idea that George Bush and Ronald Reagan are "hollow" men. That to me is a meaningless term. These men are human beings, and as such, they have a personality unique to them. It may not be one you consider meritable, but it is one nonetheless.


For Reagan, when you say America projected all these qualites onto him, grandfatherly and such, basically what you're doing is using "Freduian" or some other brand of psych terminology to say that even Reagan's personal qualities were not his own. In effect, being unwilling to give Reagan credit for even his own attitudes. Perhaps Reagan, being an actor, embellished, or perhaps Reagan was simply Reagan. This is a man who came from a poor, alcoholic family, and became President of the Actor's Guild, Governor of CA, one of the most popular Presidents in history, a victor over communism, and many more.

I think it would be simply dishonest to say that this individual "bumbled" into all of these accomplishments and deserves no credit for any of them simply because his personality is one you find unreconciliable with his accomplishments. (I'm not necessarily saying you believe this&gthttp://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Hell, Carter was quite intelligent and kind-hearted. But a crappy President. Could it be perhaps that the (assumed) ideal figure in your mind isn't necessarily the ONLY (or even) one who can become a great leader? History seems to think so, and I trust her most of all.


Besides you can't fake spontaneous humor, a big Reagan appeal, nor can you fake the fact that the Soviet Union is no longer, though I will not be surprised of course if you reply that Reagan had nothing to do with that either.


If one is unwilling to accredit the "other guy" with any redeeming attributes, than he/she has simply become a partisan to the point of which discussion is futile. I for example like Clinton and was pleased with his pragmatism.

As far as Bush goes, I do think he is probably an ok, compassionate guy, but he is painted as wicked so often by the left its even affected me to the point where I reserve my judgement beyond what I just said.

However, his policies that I have outlined above are my reasons for supporting him.

He may not align with them all, but Kerry (who I believe is also an ok guy btw) is almost the antipathy of them. And in that lies my reasoning.

I think we all want similar things. Better things for people. We just have different notions on how they should be accomplished, which is fine, becuase we can share our ideas, learn from each other, and hopefully we will all be the better for it, and so will the world.

That's where I stand.

[This message was edited by Frackal on 09-01-04 at 05:55 AM.]

archive_Frackal
09-01-2004, 05:04 AM
Also I'd be curious to know if you support John Kerry and why

archive_Mr. Nobody
09-01-2004, 05:36 AM
My simple answer to your above question is, that I support Kerry because I belief another 4 years of Bush to be a catastrophy for this country. A second Bush term, with important Supreme Court appointees at stake (which will determine the balance of power for many years to come) and without any worries for re-election, will bring even more draconian, right-wing, anti-freedom and civil liberty curbing ideas and policies from the Bush-Cheney-Ashcroft-Rumsfeldt axis of holy anti-terror mulahs. All, in the name of protecting his (Bush's America) flock and providing a name for the history books. With Bush, it is not just past and current policies but the potential (based on past willingness to stump on all that is american in regards to civil liberties) for more restrictive policies.......................................... .If you trade freedom for security you deserve neither.............let that ring in your ears when you approach the polls in November..................

Also, Kerry's support for the war resolution in Congress, as much as I dissagree with that, only meant to give the President all available tools and support for a strong American position in NEGOTIATIONS. He treated that as his green light to send marching orders without any additional effort on the diplomatic front.

Furthermore, it is a known fact, well documented fact, that Bush wanted to "GET" Saddam from day one of his first and only term as the most incompetent president this union ever had.........

End of Rant

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[This message was edited by Mr. Nobody on 09-01-04 at 09:44 AM.]

Monster
09-01-2004, 04:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Nobody:

Bush-Cheney-Ashcroft-Rumsfeldt

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A.K.A. The Axis of Evil

-------------------------
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

archive_Bjaarki
09-01-2004, 06:58 PM
Frackal, I support John Kerry for many reasons, but mostly because I have studied his life, and find him to be a man of true courage, true substance. He was a hero in Vietnam, and even more of a hero upon his return. Bush was AWOL, not just from his NG duty, but from the historical era that should have formed him, and didn't.

I'm glad you have well-articulated reasons for supporting him. I can respect that. But I believe you've been hoodwinked, as you were by the Reagan bio you read. Both are hollow men. Bush, I believe, is the hollowest man who ever held the office of President.

Do what you have to do, bro.

archive_Frackal
09-01-2004, 11:03 PM
Good responses by all. One thing we definitely all agree upon is that the PATRIOT act in its current form is bad news.

archive_Frackal
09-01-2004, 11:06 PM
Ironically I would say Kerry seems to be a man with little core, effeminate, not in courage or manner, but in his tendency to sway like the tides being pushed from forces outside himself.

On the contrary, I consider Reagan a man of conviction, and also believe history has judged him better than it has John Kerry. I don't think Kerry is a bad guy (in terms of bad intent,) I just don't think he's the right guy for this time.