Is weightlifting essential during a cutting cycle?

[HotSauceJunky]

Maybe I should just do 3-4 months of cardio to cut up?

[J. Adams]

Weight training is far superior to cardio in preserving muscle mass during a cutting cycle.

[BiggT]

The problem with that is that when you take away the stimulus of lifting weights, your body will have no reason to carry the muscle it has now and your body composition will change (for the worse).

In other words, you'll get lighter on the scale but lose muscle. You'd likely get smaller, but not a whole lot leaner looking.

[Evidence]

Along the lines as T said, weight training can be very beneficial to almost anyone's needs. The key word which was mentioned is stimulus. We turn that off and what are we left with? Not very challenging work. Now don't get me wrong, marathon runners and endurance athletes needs are very challenging. So the question is, are you willing to sacrifice the muscle you have worked hard for? I would think in most instances, but not all, the answer would be no.

[G-REX]

Something else that hasn't really been brought up yet is that the more muscle you have the more calories you are going to burn while you're doing all that cardio, thus making the cardio that much more effective.

I would keep your weight training in the mix. If I'm not mistaken during a cutting cycle the weight training is there to try and maintain as much muscle mass as possible, so you get the benefit of loosing the unwanted fat but keep the muscle and get that shredded look.

[HotSauceJunky]

Can someone bring in some scientific literature about this, please? Perhaps some articles cited from the medical journals and whatnot.

[Evidence]

It is commonly known that the size of a muscle increases when it is subjected to a strength training regimen. This increase is called hypertrophy and is typically displayed by bodybuilders. Whole-muscle hypertrphy is caused by

*an increased number of motor fibers (fiber hyperplasia), or

*the enlargement of cross-sectional areas of individual fibers (fiber hypertrophy).

Recent investigations have found that both hyperplasia and hypertrophy contribute to muscle size increase. However, the contribution of fiber hyperplasia is rather small (<5%) and may be disregarded for practical purposes of strength training. Muscle size increases are caused mainly by individual fiber size increases, not by the gain in fibers (through fiber splitting). People with large numbers of fibers have greater potential as weightlifters or bodybuilders than do people with smaller numbers of fibers in their muscles. The size of the individual fibers, and consequently the size of the muscles, increases as a result of strength training.

Science and Practice to Strength Training, second edition; Zatsirosky, Vladimir M., Kraemer, Pg.49-50.

It gets much more detailed with your example as to the breakdown process with weights in the equation. I thought this was a great way to show what process takes place in respect to any strength training program compared to no strength training program. I know you were looking more along the lines of dropping bodyfat and obtaining a more leaner look. As G-Rex has stated having more muscle on your frame will only make activities such as cardio or the sport itself that much of a calorie burning activity compared to doing it on it's own. There is much more on this topic in the book that I felt was impractical to write out 4 or so pages out without losing everyone.

[sassy69]

Is there some reason to NOT include weight training? And that said, is cardio the only route? There are plenty of methods of aerobic training that promote both fat loss & muscle retention.

[Mrs Croft]

Also keep in mind there are many different ways to lift weights..hard and heavy with 5-8 reps...or drop sets(these I love..drop every set x 3 sets OUCH!!..or lot of reps...super setting everything. I am currently cutting for a comp and I have added a LOT more super sets..Tri-sets ect. I have lightened the weight I am lifting and just burning the muscle out. If you really want to up the fat burning..do a superset or tri-set..then do 10 min cardio to keep HR up..then do a different Tri-set 10min cardio..then some ab work..then chuck 40min cardio at the end... your in the fat burning zone the whole workout..but still get the blood pumping into the muscle :poser:

[IliekFude]

The problem with that is that when you take away the stimulus of lifting weights, your body will have no reason to carry the muscle it has now and your body composition will change (for the worse).

In other words, you'll get lighter on the scale but lose muscle. You'd likely get smaller, but not a whole lot leaner looking.

Right.. if you dont comb yr hair its not gona lay the way you want it. If you dont wash yr face its not gona stay clean. If you dont trim yr fingernails they wont stay short n neat.
If you dont lift weights yr body wont need the muscle to do it anymore and will ADAPT VERY QUICKLY by moving those resources elsewhere.
The body is amazing at adaptation to the environment presented to it.

[HotSauceJunky]

Is there some reason to NOT include weight training? And that said, is cardio the only route? There are plenty of methods of aerobic training that promote both fat loss & muscle retention.

That's the reason I asked. I have very little time to invest into doubles, like lifting and cardio in any combination, and when I try (and I've tried) I always fall off the wagon. I have a decent amount of muscle size on me, but it won't hurt to cut down and show how much I really have, and THEN bulk.

The truth is, looking back, the only single time I can remember reaching my goals point on, including diet and training, was when I ran in a cardio-oriented program. Maybe it's time to go back there because my current program is obviously not working out. If all else fails, I'll construct something new.

If you, Sassy, alongside anyone else that has experience in this can aid me in constructing a cardio-oriented program to shed the bodyfat, and instruct me on what I should do to maintain the muscle mass I currently have, that would be fantastic (because I'm really stuck and clueless...)

[HotSauceJunky]

Well...my body at 130lbs as the result of diet and cardio without lifting is attached, and as the result of diet and lifting is in the avi. Not really the same effect :lol:

That is REALLY awesome. I noticed the same exact thing in my training, too!

[Sue Me]

What's your routine? I suggest grabbing a heart rate monitor, cut rest periods between sets to < 60 seconds, and do full-body, compound movements 4x a week, throwing in some biking or rowing in there and watch the fat melt off...

[GTLifter]

I don't think cardio is needed at all to drop weight as long as your diet is tight. At least in my own personal experience.

[sassy69]

What's your routine? I suggest grabbing a heart rate monitor, cut rest periods between sets to < 60 seconds, and do full-body, compound movements 4x a week, throwing in some biking or rowing in there and watch the fat melt off...

Something like this is a very simple modification to what you do now. You'll be in & out of the gym in about 45 min & you should be sweating bullets & exhausted by the end of it.

Similar options are things like a crossfit-type approach - more calisthenics, plyometrics and very highly aerobic. A side benefit is that it gives you a break from the standard bodybuilding style of lifting & focus more on core strength & balance w/ functional movement.

This will be the approach I'm taking at the moment. 10 yrs of heavy BB style lifting is doing a number of my knees & rotator cuffs. Just got an MRI on my right rotator to see if there is a tear. Barring surgery, I'm taking the next 4 months to focus on re-establishing my functional strength and give the joints a break.

[Hidngod]

When I was able to do this consistently, I made good progress.
For 5 sets It only took 1/2 hr. When I've worn my HR moniter, my cals burned & BPM have matched or exceeded treadmill work.

http://www.afboard.com/forum/training-logs/24881-hidngod-so-ya-gonna-do.html#post291819

[Sue Me]

Yeah, I am in and out within 45 minutes, unless I toss in some cardio, then I just make it an even 60min.

[HotSauceJunky]

There are plenty of methods of aerobic training that promote both fat loss & muscle retention.

I'd like to find out more about this if that's possible...

Would you state some options with their preferred instructions?

[Hidngod]

I'd like to find out more about this if that's possible...

Would you state some options with their preferred instructions?

Follow the link in post 17 to see my example. ;) It's called complexes. Basically you pick a weight that's fairly light. Then you go through a series of compound exercises, typically 6 or more, for whatever rep range you are comfortable in. I've seen anywhere from 6 - 10 reps.
You go through all the exercises, doing the requisite number of reps, with no rest except for regripping the bar.
Then you rest for one minute and start again. Do that 5 or more times. Once you find your ranges, I guarantee you'll be sweating your hiney off.

This isn't the only way, but it certainly works.

[IliekFude]

I don't think cardio is needed at all to drop weight as long as your diet is tight. At least in my own personal experience.

I agree man. If you have the muscle mass and accompanying fast metabolism then simply manipulating yr diet towards a fatloss scheme and not changing another thing at all (in my experience) are plenty to lose all the weight you want.

But not everyone is the same here.

Back to the main point tho - ya yr def gona lose muscle mass if you stop weightlifting and start dieting. Yr body is gona cannibalize itself hardcore.

[HotSauceJunky]

I appreciate your responses, all, but I really hope you understand the question I am asking you.

It's nice that you're all firm supporters of weights, but I'm asking specifically about cardiovascular exercise, i.e. exercise that requires the use of oxygen and specifically targets aerobic improvement.

Anything requiring weights or calisthenics is, in my interpretation, anaerboic or only semi-aerobic and I am, and will disregard it because that isn't what I am asking about.

So, Sassy or anyone else who may have an idea of a cardiovascular routine that may promote max fat loss and retain muscle tissue please post your thoughts. Thanks again!

[IliekFude]

ah ok so yr asking what kinda cardio is best for keeping muscle while you diet n try to lose weight?
id suggest walking.
it may take a longer session to get the cals burned but most people i know n what ive read suggests its the correct heart rate range for targeting fat and its low impact enough to spare muscle better than most types of cardio.

i apologize for the misinterpretation and wild tangent it mustve seemed to you that i went off on lol. sometimes i dont read as indepth into posts as i should ;).

[Evidence]

So, Sassy or anyone else who may have an idea of a cardiovascular routine that may promote max fat loss and retain muscle tissue please post your thoughts. Thanks again!

I think you definitely got your answers here worded in different ways. Weights should always be in the equation especially if your goals are to retain muscle and lose fat. If you're looking for cardio only solutions, your body will drop muscle in response to you dropping the weights from the routine. Being as simple as possible, weights should never be avoided completely. The example I gave you from Zatsiorsky, shows you the process the body goes through as it adapts to the weight stimulus your body was just presented it. It doesn't make any sense to prevent that process from happening when one of your goals is muscle retention and fat burning. I mean do you know how much fat you can burn up if your diet is strict and you're lifting maximal weight? Much more than just cardio only.

[HotSauceJunky]

I'm waiting on Sassy and some of the other ladies from this forum...

By the way, I have muscle...I just need to cut down and expose it

[Evidence]

I understand, they can help you. I truely feel, if you dump the weights entirely, you will lose a lot of the muscle on your frame you currently have.

[Pan]

The point everyone is trying to make is yes, you have muscle, but 'cutting down and exposing it' by doing cardio only will leave you with no muscle, that's a promise.

My big question is why are you so heavily focussed on aerobic only exercise? Anaerobic might not utilize triglycerides as readily as glycogen due to the short time frame, but the benefits HIIT (high intensity interval training) have upon the body in terms of fat loss and muscle 'tone' (blech, hate that word) are far greater than your standard 30 mins of 'mid' intensity cardio. You may just be misinformed and think that you have to shoot for distance, but I promise you, you will see far better results going balls to the wall.

An example that's so old it's frankly getting boring, is the one about the elite marathon runner or the sprinter. Marathon runners (generally speaking) do no weight training, therefore they look like matchsticks. Sprinters do very high intensity training with multiple sets of sprints and speed drills. They also do lots of weightlifting, and are therefore muscley mofos. This is an extreme example of course, but it demonstrates why nobody on this forum has said to you "do 30 mins of cardio twice a day 5 days a week" it's just not conducive to your goals.

If you really can't do weights AND cardio then sprints, calisthenics, barbell complexes, stair running and strongman style stuff like flipping tyres and carrying sandbags are the answers to your question.

[HotSauceJunky]

:deadhorse:I wonder if I'm misinformed or if you all simply don't understand my question. I still consider HIIT to be highly cardiovascular. All I'm asking for is a routine that involves either the treadmill or the precor, instructions, and a time range I'd have to do it in. I do HIIT as it is, but I'm wondering if I can cut up in 3 months with only HIIT and diet. It's all I can afford time wise right now and I know some of the women on this forum have done it before and have succeeded very well.


And also, not all sprinters, by far, weightlift. :deadhorse:

[Mrs Croft]

:deadhorse:I wonder if I'm misinformed or if you all simply don't understand my question. I still consider HIIT to be highly cardiovascular. All I'm asking for is a routine that involves either the treadmill or the precor, instructions, and a time range I'd have to do it in. I do HIIT as it is, but I'm wondering if I can cut up in 3 months with only HIIT and diet. It's all I can afford time wise right now and I know some of the women on this forum have done it before and have succeeded very well.


And also, not all sprinters, by far, weightlift. :deadhorse:

the only lady I know that did a cut with just diet and cardio was bunny and even she will tell you she lost muscle doing it :dunno: doubt it will be something she recommends.

[BiggT]

:deadhorse:I wonder if I'm misinformed or if you all simply don't understand my question. I still consider HIIT to be highly cardiovascular. All I'm asking for is a routine that involves either the treadmill or the precor, instructions, and a time range I'd have to do it in. I do HIIT as it is, but I'm wondering if I can cut up in 3 months with only HIIT and diet. It's all I can afford time wise right now and I know some of the women on this forum have done it before and have succeeded very well.


And also, not all sprinters, by far, weightlift. :deadhorse:

Just about every sprinter who competes beyond the high school level lifts weights.

Sorry if I misinterpreted the question. The way I read it is that you asked if you really need to lift weights to cut fat and if 3-4 months of cardio only is recommended.

No, you don't need to lift weights to lose weight. Theoretically, you don't even need to exercise. You just need to eat less calories than you burn and you'll lose weight. It is a very simple numbers game, calories in v. calories out.

You didn't say weight loss though, you said cutting, which makes me think preserving muscle while dropping bodyfat. If you do cardio only and stop weight training, you'll lose muscle.

If somebody is overweight and they either (a) don't lift weights or (b) lift weights, but have developed very little muscle, then yes, they will get very nice results doing cardio only. If you have an appreciable amount of muscle gained through weightlifting, then you take the lifting stimulus away and do lots of cardio and diet heavily and drop protein intake too low, your body will lose muscle both because you took away stimulus and because you'll burn muscle as fuel.

Can I cut up in three months? is a question that can't be answered without more info. If you want to go from 13% to 10% bodyfat, then probably yes. If you are 350lbs at 40% bodyfat and you want to drop 50lbs, then probably yes. If you're 350 and 40% bodyfat and want to be sub-10%, then no, you can't.

However, generally, 3 months is plenty of time to lose fat and improve appearance significantly.

Cardio and diet only is sufficient to lose significant weight in 3 months, however it isn't sufficient to preserve as much muscle as possible while doing it unless you have very little to no muscle to begin with.

A cardio routine is about goals. If you want fat loss and you don't have any kind of performance goals, then you just want to burn calories and it doesn't much matter what you do, just burn more calories because they go in the "calories out" column of your daily numbers game. Anything that you can do consistently that burns calories and allows you to do everything else you want to do is ideal. HIIT is perfectly fine, jogging is fine, running is fine, swimming is fine, just burn calories.

[HotSauceJunky]

Alright, well, I do have muscle on my body because I've been weightlifting for over 2 years at least, I'm probably at around 25-27% bodyfat, 5'3" and 157lbs, right now and would like to go down to maybe 15%. I figure I might be able to do that manipulating cardio and diet...

[Evidence]

Mel Siff said it best.

"the proliferation of weight training facilities and personal trainers still has much more to do with commercialsim than the impact of strength science, as is emphasized by the fact that the CARDIOVASCULAR DOCTRINE [emphasis added] still dominates the fitness conscious psyche"

[HotSauceJunky]

Evidence, I get it. You support weight training at all times for every goal on every level for the entirety of ones life. Thank you for your input. I'd really love to see Bunny and some of the other women speak.

[GFH]

If you are so hellbent on not lifting... why even make this thread?

[Hidngod]

HSJ, check posts 8, 9, 10, and 29.

[sassy69]

If you are so hellbent on not lifting... why even make this thread?

On the one hand I feel like you're looking for someone to guarantee that just cardio & diet will get you your results. Sure you will lose weight. That weight will consist of bodyfat and lean muscle mass. Some amount of resistance training w/ a good supporting diet will help you acheive more. On the other, I sorta feel like you're just asking to be obstinate and argue against every bit of quality info you are getting here. Think big - you asked specifically about "weight training" - in the immediate instance of thinking about that, of course I go straight to thinking about heavy sets of squats & leg press. But it can also include any sort of resistance training. For your purposes & your time limitations, be creative!

If you really want get a cardiovascular workout while promoting lean muscle mass, I would suggest you look into the tenets of crossfit or something like that for the time you feel you have to invest in the effort to get max results. Or incorporate circuits into your HIIT training - consider something like a super set of leg extension + leg curl and then 3 minutes of HIIT step mill, repeat. I guarantee an approach like that will have fat dripping off you in a matter of weeks. And the whole effort - if you aren't lollygagging around the gym socializing, 20-30 min. You'll be exhausted & sweating bullets. Your cardiovascular capacity will be upped, your agility and endurance will be up, your "kick" will exist -which is what also helps develop those slow-twitch muscles like your calves that don't respond so great to traditional lifting.

I think if you are looking to optimize your time, you are short-sheeting yourself w/ just doing cardio when just a little variation in what you do w/ that time will work towards developing a whole other set of desireable results.

[HotSauceJunky]

If you are so hellbent on not lifting... why even make this thread?

There's no need to be rude.

[HotSauceJunky]

I think if you are looking to optimize your time, you are short-sheeting yourself w/ just doing cardio when just a little variation in what you do w/ that time will work towards developing a whole other set of desireable results.

I hear your point, but there were also various points I've stated earlier that disqualify weights for the time being. If so many of you are willing to ignore them, so be it, this thread fails. Then again, just to be fair, if I'm hellbent on cardio--it's quite obvious everyone else is hellbent on weights ;)

[*Bunny*]

I smell a typical cardio bunny in here?

Whats up girl...

Lets see here.

I was limited to NOT lifting weights b/c recovering from surgery so every morning, 1st thing, on empty, I did incline treadmill sprints, FULL INCLINE the ENTIRE time, until I burned 500 TRUE calories per a very nice, expensive Heart rate monitor. I had ass flaps and cankles so I overtrained the heck out of my legs, after EVERY sprint session doing 4 sets of 8-12 reps Leg curls and 4 sets of 20 reps calf Press. (my lower body was not limited to lifting)

I did that for about 75-80% of my entire comp prep.

I attribute my success to (1) my diet (2) proper meal timing (3) Hilter Cardio and (4) awesome supplements.

No cheats, no booze, no alcohol, and only ONLY complex carbs was a 4-6 oz sweet potato in meal 2,3 and or 4.

If I weighed 160 then I ate 1600 cals.
I drink and drank 2 gallons of water easily.

I'd ask to see specifically what you have been eating and the macronutrient breakdown to see why you havent seen any progress.

If you cannot tell me that, then you really haven't tried everything and you are either under eating or cheating with food.

We all have done it at one point.

I'd like to see the actual specifics of your diet. Here is a sample of mine when I only has cardio as an outlet, which by the way I do NOT recommend for you. I suggest doing circuit training, in and out within 45 minutes and really making your diet 110% important.

Crazy Cardio every single MF'ing day
meal 1 Post workout shake - 2 scoops Zero Carb, Glutamine, berries
meal 2 4-6 oz baked chicken, 1 cup grean beans, 4 oz sweet potato
meal 3 4-6 oz baked chicken, 1 cup grean beans, 4 oz sweet potato
meal 4 4-6 oz baked chicken, 1 cup grean beans, 1 tbsp Peanut Butter
meal 5 1 tbsp Peanut Butter, RTD Shake (I had class for 3 hours)
meal 6 2 scoops Casein Protein, one scoop if I added 1 tbsp PB

If I was lucky I ate Lean filet since I do not eat eggs really, tuna, fish, Im simple so it's that much easier not making 'diet' too complicated.

Sesapure - 2 caps 3 x a day
Glucorell - 1 cap with Meal 1,2 and 3
Yohimburn ES - take a bath in it, on clean skin 1st thing AM


I did this b/c:
*I was injured, couldnt use weights
*I was doing a figure competion in like 8 or 9 weeks and had no choice of the food, it was fuel not for enjoyment (FYI 12-16 weeks is more common, even 18-24 for newbies, my results for the short time were VERY VERY uncommon)
*I am 'natural' meaning I do not use any illegal steriods or prescription diuretics. I had to adjust training to compensate for my limitations across the board.
*Towards the end I was able to add in 12-15 reps of Upper body movements to reintroduce my body to weights, thank GAWD.

Before and after pics are on my myspace.
MySpace.com - Amanda Victoria - 99 - Female - Chicago Burbs, Illinois - www.myspace.com/project_bunny (http://www.projectbunny.com)


Not lets see your diet. pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease.

[Hidngod]

I hear your point, but there were also various points I've stated earlier that disqualify weights for the time being. If so many of you are willing to ignore them, so be it, this thread fails. Then again, just to be fair, if I'm hellbent on cardio--it's quite obvious everyone else is hellbent on weights ;)

Honestly, the only thing I can see that disqualifies weights, is where you say you don't want to do them, or want to do cardio only.
I think the point that most are trying to make, is that almost any variation of cardio only will result in LBM loss.
HIIT, wind sprints, etc are the closest I think you'll get, and you said you already do HIIT.

[HotSauceJunky]

Thanks, Bunny. Sorry Hidngod, I'm not about to post my weight-injury-workload-related dirty laundry on this forum...

I've spent many years weighttraining, and I appreciate the comments, but I'm very clear on what I'm looking for (and Bunny has provided it!)

Thanks again Bunny :roses:

Bunny, I didn't say I haven't seen progress...I just have to change my routine up to fit my lifestyle right now.

Diet: M1: Steel cut oats w/water + cottage cheese fat free, some lower sugar fruit usually 1/2 c of apple

M2: Chicken breast w/brown rice

M3: Same as Meal 2

M4: Salmon w/brown rice

M5: 1oz raw cashews

I usually get a galloon of water in

Workouts are usually followed by an IsoPure w/skim shake, that'd be a meal within those 5

Alright..I suppose we've done a fair trade now ;)

[Hidngod]

:biggthumpup:
Good luck & keep us posted.

[*Bunny*]

I'd add some circuit or high volume training in there at some point, I think like mine, your body will welcome it a bit after all the cardio or sprinting, step mill works wonders. :) Full incline cardio WALKING even, just no hands during the interval;s etc, you get my drift.

Just promise me whatever you do, watch the knees... :rose:
Thanks, Bunny. Sorry Hidngod, I'm not about to post my weight-injury-workload-related dirty laundry on this forum...

I've spent many years weighttraining, and I appreciate the comments, but I'm very clear on what I'm looking for (and Bunny has provided it!)

Thanks again Bunny :roses:

Bunny, I didn't say I haven't seen progress...I just have to change my routine up to fit my lifestyle right now.

AHh my bad sweets I mizundastood, forgive me :kiss:

Diet: M1: Steel cut oats w/water + cottage cheese fat free, some lower sugar fruit usually 1/2 c of apple

M2: Chicken breast w/brown rice

M3: Same as Meal 2

M4: Salmon w/brown rice

M5: 1oz raw cashews

I usually get a gallon of water in

Workouts are usually followed by an IsoPure w/skim shake, that'd be a meal within those 5

Alright..I suppose we've done a fair trade now ;)
The diet basics looks simple, and maybe a bit on the low cal side. I'd try to mayyyyyyyyyyyyybe squeeze another meal in there somewhere and most definitely green veggies. Hard to tell what your portions are though but I think you should shoot to get in 2-4 servings of green veggies, like green beans, broccoli, asparagus, or even salad.

Spinach salad with light dressing, tuna/chicken, handful of blueberries & sliced strawberries is really very yummy. I didn't realize how good until I tried it and you can eat the entire bag of spinach thru out the day if you want.

Aside from that, if what you are doing works for you, I'd just try to add in one more meal and the veggies, and maybe a treat meal every 10 days or so if you'd like. Also Rice, breads, pasta, whole wheat or not, I limit them b/c I MUST have a small allergy, I retain and bloat. I use sweet potatoes. Maybe rotate those in a few times a week vs the rice.

I've gotten a bit tired of weights, I'm now phasing back in with a few random things like turbulence training, plyometrics, and circuits.

For Example here is a random Giant Leg Day and the reason I'm having trouble walking.
http://www.afboard.com/forum/312023-post807.html

The cardio (skipping after each set) is your cardio and well as trying to keep the weights at 12-15 reps, high but hard. You can only do 2-3 days of weights if you want or not at all if you can handle the intense cardio and strict diet.

You can easily do the 1st one then finish with cardio, intervals, only 20 minutes.

If you'd like to PM a bit about your history so I can make more appropriate suggestions, feel free. I feel like I'm just throwing some things out there.

I can help you kinda get moving away from this rut, plateau or whatever we call it these days.

You'll progress, I can feel it.

I have to go take care of the Mr. He rolled his ankle and is helpless.....again.

:rose:

[GTLifter]

Thanks, Bunny. Sorry Hidngod, I'm not about to post my weight-injury-workload-related dirty laundry on this forum...


If there is a reason you can not lift weights you should have stated that in your first post to avoid all the confusion and arguing.



Honestly, the way you have responded to others who are trying to help you meet your goals you seem like a real bitch.

[GTLifter]

Thanks, Bunny. Sorry Hidngod, I'm not about to post my weight-injury-workload-related dirty laundry on this forum...


If there is a reason you can not lift weights you should have stated that in your first post to avoid all the confusion and arguing.



Honestly, the way you have responded to others who are trying to help you meet your goals you seem like a real bitch.

[Mrs Croft]

Evidence, I get it. You support weight training at all times for every goal on every level for the entirety of ones life. Thank you for your input. I'd really love to see Bunny and some of the other women speak.

what am I :dunno: chopped liver :( I posted a number of times..I also told you bunny did a cardio based cut..but even she doesn't recommend JUST cardio..it was a forced cardio based cut..not because it's the way she likes to do it :dunno:

anyway..good luck with it..:wiggle:

[GTLifter]

what am I :dunno: chopped liver :( I posted a number of times..I also told you bunny did a cardio based cut..but even she doesn't recommend JUST cardio..it was a forced cardio based cut..not because it's the way she likes to do it :dunno:

anyway..good luck with it..:wiggle:


far from it ma'am ;)

[Hidngod]

far from it ma'am ;)

^^^^^^^^^^
Can I hear a Hallelujah?

[HotSauceJunky]

If there is a reason you can not lift weights you should have stated that in your first post to avoid all the confusion and arguing.



Honestly, the way you have responded to others who are trying to help you meet your goals you seem like a real bitch.

Didn't your mother ever teach you any manners? If something is none of your business, it's none of your business. Falling off the wagon means many things--more than just diet. In general, most research supported data suggests that resistance training and cardio should be done simultaneously, but that same literature suggests that cardio be the primary method to fatloss, incorporated with particular amounts of resistance training to build muscle--which in turn supports how many more calories are burned during cardio AND at rest. That's about it.

Seriously, guy, if you're going to be this rude then just stop posting. I don't, and I doubt anyone else in here needs your attitude about the subject. Until further notice, really, the question was "is resistance training absolutely necessary during a cut?" and the answer seems to be NO, it is not absolutely necessary, but it's an enormous benefit on several different levels such as muscle construction and muscle retention.

[HotSauceJunky]

I have to go take care of the Mr. He rolled his ankle and is helpless.....again.

:rose:

Bunny, use RICE - rest, ice, compress, elevate (miracle cure for almost every non-surgical issue)

Other than that, thanks a lot. I just want to know if you lost a tremendous amount of muscle tissue during your cut even with weights incorporated as you did for the lower body

[GTLifter]

Didn't your mother ever teach you any manners? If something is none of your business, it's none of your business. Falling off the wagon means many things--more than just diet. In general, most research supported data suggests that resistance training and cardio should be done simultaneously, but that same literature suggests that cardio be the primary method to fatloss, incorporated with particular amounts of resistance training to build muscle--which in turn supports how many more calories are burned during cardio AND at rest. That's about it.

Seriously, guy, if you're going to be this rude then just stop posting. I don't, and I doubt anyone else in here needs your attitude about the subject. Until further notice, really, the question was "is resistance training absolutely necessary during a cut?" and the answer seems to be NO, it is not absolutely necessary, but it's an enormous benefit on several different levels such as muscle construction and muscle retention.

Research data can be interpreted to say anything; I listen to those in the trenches who have done the work not some pencil neck in a lab. Fat loss is a result of consuming fewer calories then you burn, how you burn them is a bit of a moot point. Also, resistance training jacks your metabolism up longer then cardio which leads to even more calories burned.


Stop posting? Are you kidding me? You came in here, asked a question and pretty much ignored every answer until someone posted what you wanted to hear. Why don't you stop posting since you already knew the answer to your questions. Also, I had multiple people pm me thanking me for calling you out on your bullshit.

[*Bunny*]

Bunny, use RICE - rest, ice, compress, elevate (miracle cure for almost every non-surgical issue)

Other than that, thanks a lot. I just want to know if you lost a tremendous amount of muscle tissue during your cut even with weights incorporated as you did for the lower body

Honestly I put on muscle. I re comped QUITE a bit as well.
You can see the drop of LBM as I got closer to my shows, the post show it went back up as it usually does for me.

I also think I have whacked genetics and DNA manipulation from chemo, lol. Seriously.

Here is my progression for my cut.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b134/xxmandivxx/My%20Figure%20show/Body%20Fat%20and%20Measurements/recentbodyfatasof7-19-07-1.jpg



Few reads for you

(1) Effective Cardio Training
John Berardi - Cardio Progressions - Effective Cardio Training (http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/training/cardio_progressions.htm)

(2) Excerpt below
Bodybuilding.com - John Berardi - The Winning Formula: How To Manipulate Your Diet & Exercise To Look Great Naked - Part 1! (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/berardi32.htm)
Based on what I've presented so far, here is a summary of what's happening with the different weight loss strategies:


Diet alone works for weight loss but it leads to unacceptable losses in metabolic rate and LBM.
Aerobic exercise alone can lead to comparable fat loss with diet conditions (assuming the same energy deficit). However it's difficult to burn the required amount of calories for sufficient weight loss with aerobic exercise. In addition, if adequate exercise is performed for a reasonable fat loss, some lean body mass may also be lost.
Resistance exercise alone cannot match diet-induced weight loss.
Simultaneous exercise and diet interventions do not necessarily lead to greater weight loss than diet alone, but energy metabolism is improved and lean-body mass is preserved.
A combination of diet, a small amount aerobic exercise, and moderate amount of resistance exercise should yield the greatest weight loss while preserving LBM.

(3) Just misc stuff. Like these vids, may have to ffwd a bit til he comes on, talks about important of diet cardio and strength training with source citing.
YouTube - Fanny Kiefer Show - Part 1 - www.GourmetNutrition.com (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEnUClneduA)
YouTube - Fanny Kiefer Show - Part 2 - www.GourmetNutrition.com (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3ab-POZMZc)

[*Bunny*]

1st and last warning.

ENOUGH with the banter please.
He said she said, we get it. The End.



I do not want to ban anyone from this thread.
And easy on the harassing reps, I do not want any complaints about that.

Thank you.
:bunny:

[*Bunny*]

:ily:

[Evidence]

Seriously, guy, if you're going to be this rude then just stop posting. I don't, and I doubt anyone else in here needs your attitude about the subject.


We absolutely need his attitude around here. I have told him personally, this man walks the walk and talks the talk. He has chosen to prepare his body and mind for powerlifting meets and spend time helping those out in similar goals. I don't even have the same training goals as him, but we need more of those who practice what they preach. I've always been more of the person who learns through doing and adjusting through mistakes. The literature and resources can definitely help shape your technique and program. At the end of the day, you have a bar, the plates that go onto it are round and you gotta dig deep and move it.

[HotSauceJunky]

Research data can be interpreted to say anything; I listen to those in the trenches who have done the work not some pencil neck in a lab. Fat loss is a result of consuming fewer calories then you burn, how you burn them is a bit of a moot point. Also, resistance training jacks your metabolism up longer then cardio which leads to even more calories burned.


Stop posting? Are you kidding me? You came in here, asked a question and pretty much ignored every answer until someone posted what you wanted to hear. Why don't you stop posting since you already knew the answer to your questions. Also, I had multiple people pm me thanking me for calling you out on your bullshit.

Why don't you stop acting like a big baby? Blahblahblah, people PM me, blahblahblah forum politics. Look buddy, neither paper nor 'trench experience' will get a single person where they need to be, but both. I've done my research, I have my experience too. I see your method is to try and control everything and everyone around you, so from this moment on I and anyone else I forward to this site will be distanced from you. You're immature, controlling, redundant, and ignorant at that.

I personally don't need some rude, bad-tempered musclehead bombarding my thread with obtuse remarks, discouraging scientific research, and using everyone else's name to throw your insults around this thread. It's irrelevant to me whose posts you serenade with your games--just make sure they aren't mine. Thanks again and have a nice day.

[GTLifter]

HSJ,


1st and last warning.

ENOUGH with the banter please.
He said she said, we get it. The End.


.

[*Bunny*]

Play nice...

GTL, :rose:



By the way HOW I did that without any heavy weights it truly a mystery at this point to me. I can attribute the sprints muscle building with the plyo effect, but I sounded like an elephant stamping through the gym, every...single...day.

AT that time the trainers didn't know me so I was the 'joke' of the gym and little snickers here and there. :)


'newbie gains' can be had after a hiatus, which I did have for a bit. I also had muscle memory from training 'seriously' for 2 full years prior.

Either way, I like to test different things out. And stay OUT of my ugly bulking clothes as much as possible.

Coming off my 3rd bulk and trying the failure circuit type program my coaches put me on. Works pretty well, I just need to nail the diet.




:tongue2:

[Hidngod]

Why don't you stop acting like a big baby? Blahblahblah, people PM me, blahblahblah forum politics. Look buddy, neither paper nor 'trench experience' will get a single person where they need to be, but both. I've done my research, I have my experience too. I see your method is to try and control everything and everyone around you, so from this moment on I and anyone else I forward to this site will be distanced from you. You're immature, controlling, redundant, and ignorant at that.

I personally don't need some rude, bad-tempered musclehead bombarding my thread with obtuse remarks, discouraging scientific research, and using everyone else's name to throw your insults around this thread. It's irrelevant to me whose posts you serenade with your games--just make sure they aren't mine. Thanks again and have a nice day.
At risk of raising someone's ire, I have to respond.
HSJ, you were not clear. People tried to help & you ignored them,or you yourself were rude.
While GT may have been a little coarse in his assessment, he was, in fact correct about your attitude.
Don't bother responding. I won't rebut.

[RagingBull666]

Hotsauce, I just popped in on this thread and you changed from the initial question.

You can cut weight with cardio but it's more effective with weight training. You don't need to go heavy and can incorporate it in your cardio program as well. My daughters and wife train this way. Higher reps, compound and super sets, with little to no rest, followed by cardio.

It really is more effective to cut weight without cutting weight lifting. My oldest daughter cut 5 lbs. but totally changed her looks by doing this. J, as she posted, did this as well.

I think you rubbed some folks wrong here cuz they gave solid advice which you ignored, changed your goal, or attacked until you heard what you want. This is a solid board with a LOT of experienced lifters. If you ask advice it's going to come. It may not be "what" you want to hear though. My advice to you is that just because it isn't what you wanted to hear doesn't make it wrong. Maybe it's your thought process that needs to change or learn to accept opinions and ideas even though they may not be what you wanted to hear.

Good luck to you. SS, RB

[J. Adams]

1st and last warning.

ENOUGH with the banter please.
He said she said, we get it. The End.



I do not want to ban anyone from this thread.
And easy on the harassing reps, I do not want any complaints about that.

Thank you.
:bunny:

You can ban someone from a thread?

haha...I didn't know that. :)

[J. Adams]

I hear your point, but there were also various points I've stated earlier that disqualify weights for the time being. If so many of you are willing to ignore them, so be it, this thread fails. Then again, just to be fair, if I'm hellbent on cardio--it's quite obvious everyone else is hellbent on weights ;)

Assuming you keep calories at a certain level, I usually lose LBM/fat mass at a 50:50 ratio when doing cardio only. So for every 2lbs of fat lose, I lose 1lb of fat and 1 of LBM. (This is just me though).

With resistance training (Just 2x/week), I cut that down to a 85:15 ratio.

So, yes you can cut up doing cardio only (I play sports btw), but be prepared to lose muscle mass at a rapid clip.

[dubdubs]

all I have to say is that I am practically the only girl in my gym that has lifted without killing myself on the treadmill at certain points and have cut down. When I added the cardio to my weight lifting fat burning routine, my body responded even more rapidly. Most women at the gym take classes and are on the cardio deck and even those that lift won't take my guidance when I see them doing things improperly or when I offer them tips to change things up, they do not have an ounce of lean anything on them, well maybe their tongues, lol... they spend all their time yacking away and spend all this money on trainers and don't give any attention to their diet.

There is alot of good solid advice here from everyone, that is why I come here to ask my questions. I know what I learn here will work for me when I put it to GOOD USE :poser:

[sassy69]

I think we beat this one to death, and I think the sum is that doing just cardio & diet (e.g. treadmill all the time, nothing else) + diet will help you drop bodyfat but most likely will cost you some muscle mass as well. Incorporating other flavors of exercise, e.g. supersetting, circuits, plyo, agility / coordination type training, etc. will help to make up some of that.

That I think is why I asked what exactly are we calling "weight training"? Resistance bands used for running against someone holding the other end could be considered resistance training of sorts. Body weight plyos counts as a form of resistance training if you really want to get into it.

So at this point the question is, has the question been answered? Anything beyond that just rehashes the 3 pages we already have on this topic.

[RagingBull666]

So at this point the question is, has the question been answered? Anything beyond that just rehashes the 3 pages we already have on this topic.I'm just here for the fight!! :deadhorse::deadhorse:

[vancouverrules]

Well...my body at 130lbs as the result of diet and cardio without lifting is attached, and as the result of diet and lifting is in the avi. Not really the same effect :lol:

Perfect example. All cardio while cutting = skinny fat, unless you have some kind of letter-perfect diet. Presumably weights will remind you to take in the correct amount of protein and calories also. Dropping cals too much is another way to lose weight and not BF.

[vancouverrules]

Why don't you stop acting like a big baby? Blahblahblah, people PM me, blahblahblah forum politics. Look buddy, neither paper nor 'trench experience' will get a single person where they need to be, but both. I've done my research, I have my experience too. I see your method is to try and control everything and everyone around you, so from this moment on I and anyone else I forward to this site will be distanced from you. You're immature, controlling, redundant, and ignorant at that.

I personally don't need some rude, bad-tempered musclehead bombarding my thread with obtuse remarks, discouraging scientific research, and using everyone else's name to throw your insults around this thread. It's irrelevant to me whose posts you serenade with your games--just make sure they aren't mine. Thanks again and have a nice day.

So we see the hidden bias. You're calling someone on a weight training board a "musclehead"? That's how you dismiss all points of view contrary to your own ... by lumping the other side into some knuckle dragging territory.

As such I have the utmost confidence that you'll find whatever scientific research you need to support your biases.

Resistance exercise can be lots of things - rowing, sprints, calisthenics, yoga. If you had a bias against weights due to injuries or some hidden reason it would have been easier had you just stated the exact reason at the outset.

I usually don't get involved in banter, after a mod has said "stop," especially, but I generally read the board sporadically so as one of the most reasonable people on the planet I just had to offer 2c here.

Also: nothing wrong with a lot of cardio, for your goals. I do a lot of cardio. It has made me a bit smaller, but with diet and weights, the cut look I have sought for many years has become the norm. And as for knowing about weight training because you lifted for two years, or whatever. Please! Like a few other members here, I've been lifting and exploring theories about weights, exercise, and diet and the body's response for 17 years. I think all fit people are attractive, so I honestly don't care if you have a little fat on your butt. But if your goal is to "cut," cross training of some kind is best.