Post shoulder surgery rehab question...

[G21]

All-

Killer i would love to hear from you on this. BMJ and Ulter have offered input through PM's as well but was advised to post this here for you all to see as well soooooooooooooooo.

Here's the deal. My left shoulder has been bothering me for some time, it causes me no pain (except for recently). The shoulder does however sublux/dislocate (posterior i believe) I cant tell if its a partial or full dislocation. Obviously something is stretched and or torn inside, i went to a highly recomended orthaepedist; an MRI was done. The follow up is this friday to go over options....After all that heres the question.

Assuming surgery is done (which as far as im concerned is my only option), for quicker and better recovery im considering mild use of AAS. Heres my thoughts I have NOT done my first cycle, yet, im looking to heal quicker so i was pondering Anavar at 30-40mgs a day for 3-6months post op. Additionally, should low dose GH be considered as well? Is the doseing to high to low or just right with the anavar in your opinion. I appreciate your thoughts and comments, in addition if you need more info from me please dont hesitate to ask. I would assume that a little var and possibly a small amount of GH would'nt effect my first cycle gains that much, would it?

I'll update tomorrow after the follow up

I'll throw in my physical stats for your consideration:
28yrs old
6'5"
295lbs

Thanks for your time.

[P Bo]

G21...your post hits very close to home. I have subluxation of both shoulders and both hips (makes for some great party tricks I tell you!). My shoulders are actually worse than just sublux as I have multi-directional instability with recurrent dislocations. I had an open repair first (posterior staple capsulloraphy) where in a nutshell the connective tissue was shortened and reaffixed to tighten the capsule. If the open repair wasn't bad enough, the fibreglass body cast for 6 weeks made it worse. I got 10 decent years out it before my shoulder fell apart...again... and worse. Late July 2007 I went under the knife again via scope for pretty much every procedure you can imagine on a shoulder. 4 screws/anchors and mutliple inner-sutures later....

Here's where I am going with this....now granted, my experiences are my own BUT keep in mind I have two bad shoulders I can compare to one another. My left is unaltered with no surgeries, my right is very altered. My left still dislocates frequently and makes training a challenge BUT the lack of constant pain does not even compare to the right. I will NOT have the surgeries on my left knowing what I know now. Should you decide to have surgery if that is the route you need to go, I would say Var is a solid choice. As for how it will effect your future cycle, I'll leave that to the boys to answer. I was up against a wall with pain management post-surgery: physio, ART, chiro, accu, morphine, nerve blocks...none was working. After researching Var, I decided to cross over to the dark side LOL. Would I call Var a wonder drug? No. Did I see an improvement in my pain/ability to function? Yes. Please do not view Var as a cure-all to bypass solid rehab. Rehab is a must and I still work at it daily without fail. As for dosing, I am female therefore the same rules don't apply. I went with 10 mg/ED for 4 months. I was happy with the results until I encountered other issues the Var could not address, ie anchors coming undone and I'm now in the midst of dealing with that.

Few questons for you:

What trauma did you suffer that has left your shoulder as is? Or is the sublux just how you are made (that's me)

Why the need to speed up healing? Work reasons? Don't rush it if possible.

Have you already explored non-surgical options?

I'm really looking forward to hearing your MRI results and your surgeon's opinion. If surgery is what you choose to do, PM me and I can fill you from a patient's perspective.

[Killer]

Hey G21,

I cannot offer anything really about the GH/var usuage that the Boss or BMJ has not said. I have not personal exp with it for the most part.

But, please let us know what your MRI shows and what the Dr says. I do have exp with athletes that had capsular shrinkages via joint capsule tightening and actual capsule shrinkage.

Have you been doing rotator and scapular exercises to try to keep your arm from falling out?

If it falls out all the time and is bothering you alot, then my exp leads me to say that you need surgery.

[G21]

G21...your post hits very close to home. I have subluxation of both shoulders and both hips (makes for some great party tricks I tell you!). My shoulders are actually worse than just sublux as I have multi-directional instability with recurrent dislocations. I had an open repair first (posterior staple capsulloraphy) where in a nutshell the connective tissue was shortened and reaffixed to tighten the capsule. If the open repair wasn't bad enough, the fibreglass body cast for 6 weeks made it worse. I got 10 decent years out it before my shoulder fell apart...again... and worse. Late July 2007 I went under the knife again via scope for pretty much every procedure you can imagine on a shoulder. 4 screws/anchors and mutliple inner-sutures later....

Here's where I am going with this....now granted, my experiences are my own BUT keep in mind I have two bad shoulders I can compare to one another. My left is unaltered with no surgeries, my right is very altered. My left still dislocates frequently and makes training a challenge BUT the lack of constant pain does not even compare to the right. I will NOT have the surgeries on my left knowing what I know now. Should you decide to have surgery if that is the route you need to go, I would say Var is a solid choice. As for how it will effect your future cycle, I'll leave that to the boys to answer. I was up against a wall with pain management post-surgery: physio, ART, chiro, accu, morphine, nerve blocks...none was working. After researching Var, I decided to cross over to the dark side LOL. Would I call Var a wonder drug? No. Did I see an improvement in my pain/ability to function? Yes. Please do not view Var as a cure-all to bypass solid rehab. Rehab is a must and I still work at it daily without fail. As for dosing, I am female therefore the same rules don't apply. I went with 10 mg/ED for 4 months. I was happy with the results until I encountered other issues the Var could not address, ie anchors coming undone and I'm now in the midst of dealing with that.

Few questons for you:

What trauma did you suffer that has left your shoulder as is? Or is the sublux just how you are made (that's me)

Why the need to speed up healing? Work reasons? Don't rush it if possible.

Have you already explored non-surgical options?

I'm really looking forward to hearing your MRI results and your surgeon's opinion. If surgery is what you choose to do, PM me and I can fill you from a patient's perspective.

Holy hell Big Machine im sorry to hear of your surgery occurences, thats not something anyone should ever have to go through. Just as a side note, im not looking at anavar or GH as a means to bypass or overlook proper rehab. I am looking at them to help me heal better and maybe a bit quicker. As for your questions:

1. I was in a car wreck when i was younger, other than that the only heavy trauma (if thats what you want to call it) was playing football. I do remember landing on my arm once or twice and of course burrying my shoulder into unsuspecting running backs. It could have happened there without me really noticing it. I have a VERY HIGH pain threshold, double edge sword sometimes.

2.The var and GH i would use to help facilitate a better healing process, if that makes any sense. Nope no work reasons. Im not willing to rush anything after surgery, just want to give my body every chance it can to heal well, and if mild AAS use can help (which it does) then im all for it.

3. I have explored non surgical options, specifically ART and just recently a very minor rehab program using some light bands.

As for the MRI results, apparently i moved a bit (I do have Tourettes) so the images refelected that mildly. My ortho happened to break his ankle this past weekend, so his PA looked at the MRI. His PA happens to be phenominal as far as im concerned. He said as well as showed me what he thinks to be a torn Labrum on the top portion near my bicep. My ortho will be looking at the films on monday and will get back to me. All this ortho does is shoulders, specifically for athletes that need and want to get back into the game; i feel comfortable with him.

Expect a PM, id love to hear what you have to say Big Machine.



Hey G21,

I cannot offer anything really about the GH/var usuage that the Boss or BMJ has not said. I have not personal exp with it for the most part.

But, please let us know what your MRI shows and what the Dr says. I do have exp with athletes that had capsular shrinkages via joint capsule tightening and actual capsule shrinkage.

Have you been doing rotator and scapular exercises to try to keep your arm from falling out?

If it falls out all the time and is bothering you alot, then my exp leads me to say that you need surgery.

Killer i copied this from above for you so i didnt have to re-type it:rofl:

As for the MRI results, apparently i moved a bit (I do have Tourettes) so the images refelected that mildly. My ortho happened to break his ankle this past weekend, so his PA looked at the MRI. His PA happens to be phenominal as far as im concerned. He said, as well as showed me, what he thinks to be a torn Labrum on the top portion near my bicep. My ortho will be looking at the films on monday and will get back to me. All this ortho does is shoulders, specifically for athletes that need and want to get back into the game; i feel comfortable with him.

I have been doing (just recently) some rotator and scapular movements. Heres the thing: my shoulder doesnt fall out of socket on its own, this is something that i have to make happen, it is, however, easy to do. It has been bothering a bit lately, roughly the last 6weeks. Let me give you a bit of an example, hopefully i can convey myself well enough. When doing Pin pulls i can feel the humerous being pulled down from the scapula, as well as when doing presses (dumbell bench for example) i can feel the humerous wanting to be pushed out of its capsule by the weight.

As for what surgical procedure(s) mite or will be performed? I'll find out next week what the ortho suggests. Im not opposed to haveing another MRI if that solidify's his diagnosis. Sorry i cant give you a deffinite answer yet.

Thanks for the help and suggestions. Keep em' coming.

G21 (Longest Post ever):rofl:

[itsallgenetics]

i had a rod jammed down my shoulder, through my rotator cuff.

i def feel gh helped.... i also used low dose deca and test. doc said he couldnt believe how quick i healed

[G21]

Well that sounds pleasent IAG, what happened that you needed such a procedure?

[Biter]

As for the MRI results, apparently i moved a bit (I do have Tourettes) so the images refelected that mildly. My ortho happened to break his ankle this past weekend, so his PA looked at the MRI. His PA happens to be phenominal as far as im concerned. He said as well as showed me what he thinks to be a torn Labrum on the top portion near my bicep. My ortho will be looking at the films on monday and will get back to me. All this ortho does is shoulders, specifically for athletes that need and want to get back into the game; i feel comfortable with him.

Expect a PM, id love to hear what you have to say Big Machine.



A torn labrum is exactly what I have right now. Specifically, it's a Type II superior Labral tear. I was also diagnosed with moderate acromioclavicular degenerative disease and a Buford complex variant (whatever that is).

I'd love to hear how this goes for you G21, and I might send you a PM Big Machine. I'm going to an ortho for an opinion on Friday.

Oddly enough, when I got my MRI done, I had the contrast injection into the shoulder capsule, and it felt better than it has in years. It makes me think long and hard about a future deca run, despite the fact that I've never taken the plunge.

[G21]

Thanks Biter-

I'll let you know as soon as i do:)

[East Coast Lifter]

You and I are about the same size and age, and my shoulder is killing me, if you are going to have surgery,

the only gear I would recommend post surgery is test,

Since you have not done your first cycle, I would keep the surgery and rehab separate from the gear issue.

Once your shoulder heals, get back in shape and do your first cycle.

Don’t complicate the surgery with anavar, I have never done anavar, but don’t know what if any thing it does.

[itsallgenetics]

You and I are about the same size and age, and my shoulder is killing me, if you are going to have surgery,

the only gear I would recommend post surgery is test,

Since you have not done your first cycle, I would keep the surgery and rehab separate from the gear issue.

Once your shoulder heals, get back in shape and do your first cycle.

Don’t complicate the surgery with anavar, I have never done anavar, but don’t know what if any thing it does.

i have read that var helps the healing process.....

def take gh that is a given, also lots of vitamins and lot of extra calories your body will need those to help heal

[G21]

Heard from the ortho today. Apparently i moved to much, Doc wasnt happy with the scan at all. To confirm the labrum tear, im going to have another MRI with IV sedation and die injection in the joint. Should take the tourettes element right out of it...:lol:

[Biter]

I went to see my ortho today as well.

It looks like surgery is in the cards - I'll be getting my labrum sown up as well as having bone spurs removed on my acromion. They were impinging pretty badly on the shoulder.

The doctor has asked that I leave the shoulder alone as far as training goes for 5 months after this :wallbash: I guess I'll be skwattin a lot - he cleared me for that.

The silver lining here is that I got a cortisone shot to make the pain go away and my insurance deductable has now been met.

[richd328]

G21 and everyone else with shoulder injuries, October will be a year since my second shoulder surgery and I've been lifting without pain since July. I started GH in June at 4iu's EOD plus my usual test/500 week, tren/1mg ED and deca/400 week. Everyone's injury and pain level is different but I will tell you for the six weeks after the surgery the last thing on my mind was lifting. I had to keep my arm in a sling for that time and then start therapy. Of course it was my right shoulder and I'm a righty. Now the only pain is the torn bicep head which gets a sore when doing light curls and back. Good luck.

[East Coast Lifter]

itsallgenetics


Hi and good morning, what is the latest on your shoulder and surgery,



I have not even seen anyone yet, hoping it heals on it’s own,

Think that is a lot like a crystal ball, just not working.



:bunny::bunny::bunny::bunny:

[G21]

So finally an update-

Had the MRI 10/7, follow up with the ortho...who by the way got called into surgery so my follow up again was with his PA.

Heres what was done:

Arthogram was performed on my left shoulder, 1:1 lidocaine and Omnipaque 180 was injected under fluoroscopy confirming intra-articular needle placement (was fun to watch on the screen). 10ml of 1:250 gadolinium, with trace epinephrine was injected. This procedure didnt hurt at all, the joint was slightly sore after the lidocaine wore off, not really worth mentioning but i will anyway.

MRI Findings:

-Minimal increased signal intensity in the supraspinatus tendon, suggestive of --tendinopathy. No evidence of a rotator cuff tear
The long head of the biceps is intact
-The acromioclavicular joint is normal. No os acromiale or subacromial spur is seen
-No SLAP tear is seen in the glenoid labrum. The remainder of the labrum is unremarkable
-Marrow and muscle signal are unremarkable

So here where i sit now. According to David, my orthos assistant, there are a couple images that are suspect, he wasnt willing to make a diagnosis; i dont blame him. My ortho will take a look at my MRI on wednesday, at which point he'll give his findings/thoughts. Both of us were suprised that my labrum wasnt torn; a good/bad news situation. I discussed with David what the possible routes of treatment are:

1. rehab he gave me some exercises to do in order to strengthen the rotator and hopefully help stabilize the joint. I wish i was told this earlier instead of wasting time.
2. Surgery to tighten the ligaments/tendons. I havent asked if capsular shrinkage is performed along with this; ive been told, but havent researched myself that the fail rate is roughly 50% for capsular shrinkage.

I mentioned to David that i would be inclined to leave my shoulder alone if the nerves were firing correctly. He mentioned that if the ligaments/tendons are stretched then tension/traction can be placed upon the nerves causing them to not function properly. So, as of now, i'll have my Dr.'s opinion on wed/thurs.

Odd question: I researched techniques that are used to tighten the aforementioned tendons and ligaments. One procedure uses a instrument to create heat in the tendon/ligament causing it to shrink, the body then senses damage and begins to re-build around the tendon etc. The other method uses a fold and stitch techniques, for lack of a better term. If there is anyone here that can offer plus's and minus's of each it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for reading.

[itsallgenetics]

So finally an update-

Had the MRI 10/7, follow up with the ortho...who by the way got called into surgery so my follow up again was with his PA.

Heres what was done:

Arthogram was performed on my left shoulder, 1:1 lidocaine and Omnipaque 180 was injected under fluoroscopy confirming intra-articular needle placement (was fun to watch on the screen). 10ml of 1:250 gadolinium, with trace epinephrine was injected. This procedure didnt hurt at all, the joint was slightly sore after the lidocaine wore off, not really worth mentioning but i will anyway.

MRI Findings:

-Minimal increased signal intensity in the supraspinatus tendon, suggestive of --tendinopathy. No evidence of a rotator cuff tear
The long head of the biceps is intact
-The acromioclavicular joint is normal. No os acromiale or subacromial spur is seen
-No SLAP tear is seen in the glenoid labrum. The remainder of the labrum is unremarkable
-Marrow and muscle signal are unremarkable

So here where i sit now. According to David, my orthos assistant, there are a couple images that are suspect, he wasnt willing to make a diagnosis; i dont blame him. My ortho will take a look at my MRI on wednesday, at which point he'll give his findings/thoughts. Both of us were suprised that my labrum wasnt torn; a good/bad news situation. I discussed with David what the possible routes of treatment are:

1. rehab he gave me some exercises to do in order to strengthen the rotator and hopefully help stabilize the joint. I wish i was told this earlier instead of wasting time.
2. Surgery to tighten the ligaments/tendons. I havent asked if capsular shrinkage is performed along with this; ive been told, but havent researched myself that the fail rate is roughly 50% for capsular shrinkage.

I mentioned to David that i would be inclined to leave my shoulder alone if the nerves were firing correctly. He mentioned that if the ligaments/tendons are stretched then tension/traction can be placed upon the nerves causing them to not function properly. So, as of now, i'll have my Dr.'s opinion on wed/thurs.

Odd question: I researched techniques that are used to tighten the aforementioned tendons and ligaments. One procedure uses a instrument to create heat in the tendon/ligament causing it to shrink, the body then senses damage and begins to re-build around the tendon etc. The other method uses a fold and stitch techniques, for lack of a better term. If there is anyone here that can offer plus's and minus's of each it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for reading.


i will bump for you

[P Bo]

I've had a similar procedure to the 'fold and stitch'....definitely not fun. The procedure did definitely provide improvement in joint stability but created a wealth of other issues years down the road. As much as my stability was improved, I wouldn't call the surgery a success.

[TrenAman]

I tore my labrium in right shoulder many years ago in a nasty car wreck and it just got worse and worse over the years sliding out and back in. Wrestling one night and it popped out and stayed out, normally it would slide back into socket on its own but not this time. I had to have someone pop it back in. Went to dr..mri.. I had shoulder surgery 3yrs ago this coming March. Ran HGH with the recovery. My shoulder is now like a robot shoulder it is so much stronger than my "natural" shoulder. I would def recommend GH with recovery. You can barely even see my scars from the procedure. Some advice, rehab the living shit out of it!!

Good luck bro!!

[big4life]

I had a torn labrum, according to my doctor it was "shredded", and my bicep tendon was torn completely away from the shoulder. The rehab was a very long and rough road, but my strength came back. The only exceptions have beem my range of motion is not as good as before, and I have had to adjust any lifting I do involving bench presses. I can no longer do BB on the the flat bench, I use db's, and I have to be careful to watch my shoulder position, making sure my elbows stay tucked in.

The one thing I would ask is when they did the MRI was it in an open MRI instead of a closed one?

I ask because when they did mine it looked clear, but because it wasn't responding they decided to do an exploratory arthoscopic surgery, and they found all the damage I listed above. They said the reason they think it didn't show up on the MRI was because it was closed and my shoulders sort of rolled up when I was in the machine.

[G21]

big4life-

Thanks for the input. The MRI i had was closed, im not a small individual so i asked about the scan being done open. My ortho informed me that the power of a closed unit was greater than an open unit therefore it offers better clarity. I have had 2 MRI's on this shoulder, the first one i moved the scan was garbage i dont think i was hunched on the shoulder either. The second scan i had concious sedation, so i honestly couldnt tell you how my shoulder was actually positioned.

This time I was only "slightly" cramed into the tube :). Its interesting that you bring up the issue of the shoulder being rolled up; i'll ask if they think thats an issue when i speak to them next.

The rehab exercises they gave me to do are exersises that i have been doing to some degree anyway; my shoulder hasnt responded at all as far as im concerned. I know there just performing their procedural task's but damn i just want this fixed already:deadhorse::). That being said i need to weigh my options as well.

Thanks for the input.