What is wrong with Flip-Flopping?

[archive_Ulter]

Can someone 'splain this to me?
The first time I heard this term used in politics was when the Republican's spent $90 in ads to use the word to describe Clinton.
Now it's back and I still don't understand it. As far as I can tell it means you changed your mind about an issue. What makes this a bad thing? There are times that I will hear about cycling techniques (short cycle was one) that sound good, look good on paper, people will report good results, so I think it's good. And then a few months later the whole theory falls apart when more data starts coming in from those who tried it and it's not that great in the real world because there were issues that no one had considered.
So I will change my stance on it. I this case I tried it myself and found it was useless.
This happened to me on the war in Iraq, I was for it, then I learned more about it and now I am against it. So does that mean I am a bad person because I change my stance?
Kerry is for an $87 billion dollar war bill because it rolls back tax cuts on the rich to help pay for it. Then they take that tax roll back out. So then he's against it.
His position in Iraq was like mine, all over the charts as more information started to surface.
So he's labeled a "flipper". Why would it be bad for a guy to say, "hey I had this wrong, I have changed my mind"?
It's not that I am a big Kerry fan, but why can't a politician change his mind on an issue? Or am I missing something?

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[PQ]

It's not bad at all for anyone to change their mind on an issue when faced with all the facts...it's the flopping back and forth between opinions that they're referring to. Little inconsistencies...like one day they're voting against tax cuts, then they campaign in their favor, but then upon election/re-election they flip back to opposing the cuts....shyt like that is what the term is referring to. Ahhh the joys of politics...

[Stud Diesel]

PQ nailed it, but I will add something. You and I and most everybody on this board are for the most part, pure thinkers. We go through life looking for answers, and as we gain knowledge, it is quite possible, even expected, that we change, or flip-flop our opinions based upon our newfound knowledge.

In politics many candidates flip-flop on issues solely to appeal to their party's activists and special interests. They go around the country trying to align themselves with voters while looking for an issue that will “gain traction” as they move along from state to state.

I’m not familiar with Kerry’s “flip-flopping”, but a perfect example is Wesley Clark. When he announced his candidacy, he said he would have voted for the war had he been in the Senate, and then a few days later, he switched positions, saying he would have voted against the resolution.

[archive_Ulter]

I can understand the objection to someone changing their opinions based on public opinion polls in issues being a negative. But that's not what the commercials are talking about. They are talking about someone changing their position over an 18 month period in one instance and a 7 month period in another. So are they broadening the definition?

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[PQ]

Are they broadening the definition? Probably...and typical of the commercials/media at this time. The more they can do to stir up public opinion, the more they can interest people in their broadcasts the better...for that matter the media flip-flops as badly as anyone or candidate for office.

A few years ago Bush was portrayed as nothing more than a party-til-you-drop cheerleader...then a while later he's the world's savior against terrorist threats...now he's under fire for Osama, Iraq and Afghanistan...it's not about educating voters...it seems to be more about who has the highest ratings, what are the biggest stories...as well as playing up the controversy. A large number of people, regretably, are sheep...and will vote for the one they hear the most about whether they support his political agenda or not.

On a side note...as for the candidates...playing both sides against the middle to get a few extra votes? Oh they'd NEVER do that would they?? http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Stud Diesel]

We need something to identify with; a core belief, for example, which helps us identify his direction as a leader. Kerry needs to elucidate that with the American people. As long as he stays true to his core beliefs, (whatever they are) I’d be fine with him changing his mind on just about anything. This didn’t answer your question, but it does explain how this particular voter feels about it.

[archive_Ulter]

I feel like you do. And I have seen the media flip flop like PQ says.
I guess my confusion comes from the way the Republican's keep harping on the term as an indication of a character flaw. It didn't work against Clinton, he won anyway. So why go back to it? If I don't get it, and I am at least as smart as the average voter, why waste so much face time and ad space on it? Maybe that's why I am not a political strategist.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[archive_Mickey]

They keep going to it because they are hoping for it to be a seed of doubt for some people. Some people are very skeptical people and they might vote for Bush just because they know him better as opposed to Kerry who the voter sees as someone who is unsure of himself because of the Republican marketing.

I think its a good ploy because you dont want someone being your leader if you have no idea what he is going to do once he is in there. If he makes conflicting statements then what one is he actually going to act on? I think that they all do this though. Like Stud has been saying they try to appeal to the people who will get them in office and will almost do anything to make them happy. Stud said it best when he said that we need something to identify with. So far Kerry hasnt done that for me. I feel like I have no idea who he is or what he really wants to do or what he believes in. I cant wait until the debates because things should be more clearer by then.

I dont really want to get off topic (though I seem to all the time), but doesnt Kerry want to add more troops to Iraq? I think that I read that he wants to add something like 40,000 more over there.

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[Monster]

Flip flopping is wrong. You need to take a firm and decisive stance on things... show some backbone.

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http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

[Monster]

Then again, you DO need to be flexible enough to see when youre opinion might be in error. Its good to be flexible...

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http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

[Monster]

But really, holding firm to ones opinions shows character, and that is something many people are lacking in...

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http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

[Monster]

I guess having an open mind is important too though. Being strong enough to admit you were in error in your views and being able to accept someone else may have a valid point you hadnt considered.

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http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

[Monster]

Well, flip flopping does show that perhaps you hadnt thought out your stance completly, so you need to rethink it now. It could be a sign of weakness.

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http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

[Monster]

Of course you could always say flip flopping shows you arent above seeing another point of view and are big enough to conceed to another person...

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http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

[archive_Ulter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I dont really want to get off topic (though I seem to all the time), but doesnt Kerry want to add more troops to Iraq? I think that I read that he wants to add something like 40,000 more over there.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know if he does, but the Military has asked for 120,000 more last I heard.

I would agree that people want to know where the guy stands on certain issues but I still don't think the positions need to be in stone. If things change, they change, and you should change to accomodate the situation. It's like Bush saying he's going to Iraq and then finding out no one was going to help him and him doing it anyway even though we were going to do all the fighting and foot the bill. It would have been nice if he would have flip-flopped and tried diplomacy with out allies rather than saying screw you guys I'm going.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[archive_Flash]

The meaning of 'flip-flop' doesnt matter. It has a bad connotation. After years of instant karma marketing people respond very well to blurb's like that. So, the opposing party chooses some word with a negative connotation and repeats the shit out of it untill its burned into your minds eye; Like staring into the sun for a couple of hours, after a while all you see is a big spot.

I noticed the term liberal is now analogous to dipshit.

-'Go that way. Really, really fast. If something gets in your way, turn.'

[archive_Ulter]

Well that was kind of what I was saying before. They practically invented the word, spent $90 million on ads making it a negative word, and applying it to an opponent. But it didn't work. I suppose they might think that since they spent so much making this a bad word they should go back to it and get their money's worth during each election.
I wish they would explain what a compassionate conservative is.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[macdaddy]

You know, Bill Clinton was a died in the wool proud liberal, but the American people wanted moderation so he gave it to them. Saying he changed his mind due to public opinion polls is not a bad thing, he is our elected official and he damn well better cahnge his mind and represent us, not his own ideas.

Which is the problem with George W Bush, he is an idealogue, one who is unbending and unwilling to consider any ideas but his own as correct. He may also not be bright enough to know that there are philosophies other than his own which deserve consideration.

It seems to me that a liberal who has moderated is more of a "compassionate conservative" than George Bush ever will be.

After the WMD fiasco I feel betrayed, it sure would have been nice if GW had flipped flopped on that.

[Stud Diesel]

Kerry needs to cheer up. He seems tired, worried and gloomy even when he is trying to sound optimistic. It’s not that bad and most people know that. Unemployment and inflation are down, and although interest rates will climb, they’re still extremely low.

Bush, on the other hand comes across as positive, optimistic, and patriotic, even though he does so in a child-like manner IMO. Clinton was and still does come across as very positive, and it helps Kerry when he stumps for him, but he’s not running.

[archive_Ulter]

That's his permanent facial expression I think. The guy always looks like his family was just killed in a train wreck. Even in his very early pictures. I don't know how they are going to undo that, but you're right, he has to do something about it. Maybe drugs would help. http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Bush, on the other hand comes across as positive, optimistic, and patriotic, even though he does so in a child-like manner IMO <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Am I watching the same man on TV? To me his grin is frighting and he swagers like somebody with ILS (Invisible Lat Syndrome)....."Everbody look at me, I am President!"....

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[PQ]

"It didn't work against Clinton, he won anyway. So why go back to it?"

Desperation due to a looming election and a relatively evenly split vote? At this point it's almost like choosing the lesser of two evils...on some issues anyway...then again, I don't know enough about Kerry to say that. I've got a zillion questions I want answered by both candidates before I cast my vote. Give me debates!!

[macdaddy]

Bush is grinning like the village idiot he is, and Kerry looks like Herman Munster to quote the song on This Land is Your Land (http://www.jibjab.com)

[PQ]

http://www.anabolicfitness.net/smileys/lol2[1].gif

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

Debates will be great, but honestly, how many are still undecided? How can you still be undecided at this point? Cheney, Ashcroft, Rumsfeld and Bush have brought us in 4 years nothing but alienation, division, right-wing christian ideology as policy, incredible deficits, an unecessary war based on lies and personal vandettas, job losses, attacks on civil liberties........what more do I need to know that this country will be better off with just about anybody from the center (which is far left of the current assholes). Btw, John Kerry gave an excellent speech yesterday and I for one will do everything in my limited power to get this man into the White House and send the current village idiot back to Bumfuck Texas where he came from

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[DREXX]

Monster is damn funny if I must say so.

I read this yesterday and I can't believe no one gave him props for this joke yet, I just had too.

Man, he is my idol, when I grow up I want to be just like Monster

...and YES he did pay me to post this http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If it's not hard it's not worth doing...

[Monster]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DREXX:
Monster is damn funny if I must say so.

I read this yesterday and I can't believe no one gave him props for this joke yet, I just had too.

Man, he is my idol, when I grow up I want to be just like Monster

...and YES he did pay me to post this http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If it's not hard it's not worth doing...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its easier to ignore me. The attention just eggs me on more...

-------------------------
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

[Monster]

http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Bush: State of the Union (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/presaddress2.shtml)
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Turn on your speaks - watch, listen close and laugh!

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http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/ws/,s,702093973/office.jpg "I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume."

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

[archive_Mickey]

Bwaaahahhahhahaahaaaaaa http://www.anabolicfitness.net/smileys/lol2[1].gif

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[archive_Ulter]

That's a riot.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

awsome Ulter you against the WAR

it should never have been period