The most important movie you will see all year-farenheit 9/11

[archive_METHYL MIKE]

This movie is a real eye opener, i mean when you watch it you MUST know michael moor is a flaming liberal, but there are enough facts in the movie to make you sick. 9/11 was alloweed to happen, either on purpose so we would voluntarily give up more freedom, or on accident because bush is a MORON. He is so dumb its insane, i mean hes a moron and he runs the country?! He killed for oil, i mean the war in iraq was utter bullshit, yes we should have killed saddam and all that, but not so fast, not the way it happened, not in such a way that its dragging on and our troops are dying for NOTHING. I hate politics more than ever, we dont have anyone to vote for anymore, the people we see arent us, we dont vote people to represent us anymore. Its all sickening and im glad for once people can see all the shit the media censors out. Please watch teh movie, thoughts and opinions please

[archive_Loco]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>because bush is a MORON <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Mike, but if you want to see a moron look in the mirror. I can't believe anyone would buy all the bullshit Moore puts out in that movie. He contradicts himself left and right. Christopher Hutchins of Vanity Fair wrote an excellent piece about the movie in which he tore Moore apart with REAL facts, and Hutchins is a liberal.

I haven't seen the movie because I like non-fiction better and don't want to contribute to more garbage media, but apparently Moore states that the US should have put more troops in Afghanistan. This after he opposed going in their in the first place. The list of contradictions goes on, I think you can find the piece on msn.com (look for Slate magazine perhaps).

Sorry about the moron thing dude, but you need to check your facts. It seems that people who don't like Bush agree with the movie and those who like him disagree with it. So it really just preaches to the choir.

Note: *I do believe the rules of the OT board state no posts about politics or sex.*

[Pharm Animal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Loco:
Note: *I do believe the rules of the OT board state no posts about politics or sex.*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Politics is groovy and sex is a no-no, as the rules state...but just don't make it personal...as the whole moron thing you've started is going towards. Just keep things civil; i.e. 'you boys play nice!'

[archive_Ulter]

The facts in the movie are probably correct. Their was a whole team of fact checkers compiled of Washington Post and New York Times fact checkers used to go over every inch of this film because the studio's worst fear was that it would be picked apart by Repubican fact checkers. So I doubt there are very many "fact errors" in the film. Where the film seperates opinion from fact is certainly in question however. This is where Moore is a master at what he does.

I have only read about the film but from what I have seen there is very little "new" in the film. Moore's characterization of Bush as a slow (nice word for stupid), unmotivated (nice word for lazy), politician in office, for instance, was common knowledge all the way back to his Governship in Texas. And his love for "time off" as President was told by the Washington Post a long time ago. And so was the "goat story" tape.

I remember an interview with one of the leaders in Iraq where this guy said he was worried after his initial meeting with Bush because he spent about an hour trying to explain to Bush that there were 3 kinds of Muslims in Iraq.

I'll see it before fully reviewing though. http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[archive_METHYL MIKE]

Im not an idiot otherwise i might not have noticed the fact that moore is a flaming liberal, HOWEVER can you deny all the ties bush has to the bin laden group? Does it seem a little odd to you that bush was never a grass roots politician, he seemed to just get carried into whatever he wants? Hes an idiot figure head, plain and simple, for gods sakes he doesnt read his own speeches! Listen to the joke at the end of the movie! Ill try to quote it, bush says "Theres a quote in tennesee, well texas really, i mean they probably have one in tennessee, but anyway uh...You can fool somebody, once but uh you cant fool them anotehr time." And he looks dead serious. Come on. No speech writer would have written that, bush is arrogant as hell, he doenst feel the need to work whatsoever because daddy and his family just put him up into whatever and wherever he wants! This guy is running our country! He was warned about 9/11 numerous times and didnt even pay attention! If someone you knew died that day you might feel different, if someone YOU knew was in Iraq now you might just care a little. He is making choices that dont affect anything but his pocketbook, i have 2 friends IN IRAQ doing nothing but risking their lives every fucking day and until i really feel the war is and was justified i will continue to bash the moron who put them there.

[archive_METHYL MIKE]

OH by the way, the government thrives on propaganda and misinformation, if someone comes out and tries to expose the president or something he has done, how fast would they have responses out there to make sure people dont get the wrong idea? Please.

[archive_Mickey]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>9/11 was alloweed to happen, either on purpose so we would voluntarily give up more freedom, or on accident because bush is a MORON <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mike I think this is one of the more rediculous ideas that I have ever heard, and no you arent the first to say it. There is no way that the government wanted 9/11 to happen. People say stuff like this all the time and while I do realize that our government (and most other across the globe) do things to benefit themselves and not the people, I will never believe that our govt allowed this to happen.

I consider myself a kind of liberal republican and I do not like Bush. He seems like a guy that I would want to hang out with, not a guy that I want leading my country. I do want to see this movie though and I plan on seeing it soon.

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[VOX - DEI]

A very boring, unfunny, tame and conservative look at the world. A bland regurgiation of what I already knew. Bowling for Cubans was much funnier.

Inadverantley he made a good case for going to war in Iraq.

He did bring up some good points about minorities though.

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International Intellectual Masturbation Proponent Society (IIMPS) Member

[This message was edited by VOX - DEI on 06-28-04 at 02:52 AM.]

[This message was edited by VOX - DEI on 06-28-04 at 02:55 AM.]

[VOX - DEI]

Killing for oil is a necessary evil for the survival of the USA, since we like to subsidize big businesses that don't create renewable resources.

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[VOX - DEI]

"MUST know michael moor is a flaming liberal" the movie made him look like an elephant, no pun intended.

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[VOX - DEI]

I would prefer more openness on the part politicians, but it has been show again and again religious America can't handle the truth. Maybe if it was presented with more fuck this and fuck that then people would listen.

Who here feels like having an argument for arguments sake?

I do! I do!

We are among friends, so please, there resides no "real" meaning behind "fuck you and your little dog too”.



"We must do our best to treat life less seriously."

__________________________________________________ ___________________________________

If I post anything foolish or incorrect please correct me.

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[VOX - DEI]

Loco, I agree with you on your first sentence, but you need to include yourself and myself to the list to make it “more” accurate.

Loco, people change their minds. There are no contradictions in the movie that I could find.

In the past libs have caused more harm than cons, mostly on the state level though.

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If I post anything foolish or incorrect please correct me.

Thank you for your cooperation

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[Stud Diesel]

Michael Moore’s movies are always based on the truth.

Now, can someone tell the AF readers what “based on the truth” means?

An internet high five for the first correct answer.

[archive_Ulter]

It's whatever you see on TV or read in the papers.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[Stud Diesel]

Good answer. You didn’t fall for it. http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Based on the truth means that it’s NOT TRUE.

There is only ONE TRUTH and that is the complete truth. A half truth is a lie. A partially true story is fiction. A correct fact spliced with an inaccuracy is a lie. Phrases taken out of context used to propagate half truths is sleazy and despicable.

That’s all I wanted to say really. Take this movie for what it’s worth. As on writer put it, it is a “mockcumentary” created with one thing in mind—to unseat Pres. Bush.

[Pharm Animal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stud Diesel:
Good answer. You didn’t fall for it. http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Based on the truth means that it’s _NOT TRUE._

There is only _ONE TRUTH_ and that is the complete truth. A half truth is a lie. A partially true story is fiction. A correct fact spliced with an inaccuracy is a lie. Phrases taken out of context used to propagate half truths is sleazy and despicable.

That’s all I wanted to say really. Take this movie for what it’s worth. As on writer put it, it is a “mockcumentary” created with one thing in mind—to unseat Pres. Bush.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Stud D, great fuckin' post. You nailed it with a sledgehammer.

"I feel that an individual knows their body the best. If you KNOW one of my suggestions do not work for you, do not hesitate to drop that idea from your repetoire. Never blindly follow the herd." PA 2001

[archive_METHYL MIKE]

Yeah now that i think about everything and ive discussed the film with a couple friends who are slightly more politically savvy than i ive found that the film actually sucks. WHy? Because its presented as factual, but its really not, its purely an opnionated piece in which moore is trying to make the president look bad. If it had been purely facts, like i thought it was, i would liek it, but its not, and i think its despicable that someone would make a movie like this. The sad thing is hes profiting from it, and even sadder is a lot of young people will see the movie, and not know it isnt a factual documentary, and their minds will be swayed. In retrospect, its a piece of garbage, and im regretting putting money into that idiots pockets. One thing, for the people who have seen it, did you see the scene where there is a tourist getting beaten? I came to find out moore held that piece of footage so he could put it into his movie. That is BULLSHIT you cant hold onto things like that for personal gain! Fuck moore and fuck the movie.

[archive_Mickey]

Atta boy Mike! Thats the spirit! http://www.anabolicfitness.net/smileys/lol2[1].gif

Stud is right, no one really knows the truth to anything because all we hear is half truths from each side all of the time. This really bothers me.

Being a political science major in college I like to think that I am somewhat knowledgeable on the topic of politics. The one thing that I did learn in my years of school is that politics is disgusting. Nobody is out there running for office to help you. They are doing it to help themselves and the people that put money in their pockets. I found myself actually hating politics by the time I graduated.

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[Pharm Animal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by METHYL MIKE:
...That is BULLSHIT you cant hold onto things like that for personal gain! Fuck moore and fuck the movie.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Okay, on to more important things Mike. Bro, when's your next show???!!!
http://www.anabolicfitness.net/smileys/banana.gif
Mine's the NPC North Carolina Gold Cup, in Wilmington

[archive_Ulter]

I know people who finished law school and hated lawyers so much they didn't take the bar.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[VOX - DEI]

"Phrases taken out of context used to propagate half truths is sleazy and despicable." Moore did plenty for this and said that it was his intention to become FOX NEWS before the movie was ever released.

Christopher hickens was just on the Dennis miller show (on the right) (not the first time) and if he is telling the truth he didn't see the same movie I did, he is blatantly lying about the movie and what Moore said in it, relating to what Iraq did to US citizens before the war (killing them before the war).

Iraq (a country of criminals) had many more civil liberties than most Middle Eastern countries, so liberation doesn’t fly with me.

The complete truths lengthy discussion on any subject would put Clinton’s new book to shame.

I left many holes to allow as much criticism as possible.

__________________________________________________ ___________________________________

If I post anything foolish or incorrect please correct me.

Thank you for your cooperation

People have way too many convictions in this country. Lighten the fuck up! http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

There is right and wrong, but but only God knows which one is which. I am always having trouble finding an answer that I "think" has more right than wrong in it.

[Stud Diesel]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Bush family - Bin Laden family ties. Whoopee. The bin Ladens happen to be one enormous clan. When the founder died in 1988, he left no fewer than 54 children (some say 53 -- heck, he himself may not have kept count.). Add in grandkids, in-laws, and cousins, and it must make for a heck of a big family reunion.

The founder emigrated to Saudi Arabia early in the 20th century, founded the construction firm, was hired to rebuild Mecca, and got a lock on all religious construction in a very religious country. Most of the family is western-leaning, and send their children to the U.S. for an education. Osama went in for fanaticism, was disowned by the family, and fled the country in 1992 after the Saudis ordered him arrested. Source

The Carlyle Group. Yep, it's one big business, reportedly worth over three billion, lots projects in the Mideast. Both Bushes were tied in with Carlyle pretty thoroughly, and Bush, Sr. in retirement would travel to Saudi Arabia to hunt up more contracts. The bin Laden family invested two million in a $1.3 billion fund run by it. Source.

The airplane. About two dozen bin Laden kids were attending school in the U.S. on 9/11. They started calling the Saudi embassy, in fear they were about to be lynched (a not unreasonable fear -- a few days later a Sikh was murdered, simply because he wore a turban.) The ambassador intervened (with White House, State, or FBI -- accounts vary. They "were driven or flown under FBI supervision" to a location in the US. As CBS reported, then "they left the country on a private charter plane when airports reopened three days after the attacks."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ref: moore exposed (http://www.mooreexposed.com/f911.html)

[archive_Ulter]

Not so fast. No one knows the details of the charter that flew the Bin Ladins out of the US. There is a law suit that was filed by The Washington Post against the adminstration to provide those details that is still pending. So CBS was speculating and not reporting facts.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[Stud Diesel]

Here's the source for 'The Airplane'. It's from CBSNEWS.com Click Here (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/09/30/archive/main313048.shtml)
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Bin Laden Family Evacuated

(CBS) Two dozen members of Osama bin Laden's family were urgently evacuated from the United States in the first days following the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, according to the Saudi ambassador to Washington.

One of bin Laden's brothers frantically called the Saudi Arabian Embassy in Washington looking for protection, Prince Bandar bin Sultan told The New York Times. The brother was sent to a room in the Watergate Hotel and was told not to open the door.

Most of bin Laden's relatives were attending high school and college. The young members of the bin Laden family were driven or flown under FBI supervision to a secret place in Texas and then to Washington, The Times reported Sunday.

Many were terrified, fearing they would be lynched after hearing reports of violence against Muslims and Arab-Americans.

They left the country on a private charter plane when airports reopened three days after the attacks.

King Fahd, the ailing Saudi ruler, sent an urgent message to his embassy in Washington pointing out that there were "bin Laden children all over America" and ordered, "Take measures to protect the innocents," the ambassador said.

It's a tragedy," Prince Bandar told the Times. "The elders" of the students "came to see me, and one of them was a bright boy from Harvard who like the others had absolutely nothing to do with this and yet we had to tell him to go home and wait until the emotions calmed down. And he told me that he never really appreciated why the Japanese wanted a memorial or an apology for their treatment in World War II.

The student added, according to the prince, "I understand now that when you are innocent, in the face of emotion, nothing, not even common sense, can help argue your case."

Osama bin Laden is one of more than 50 children of a Yemeni-born migrant who made a vast fortune building roads and palaces in Saudi Arabia and his extended family spans the globe. Many have been educated in the United States and the family has donated millions of dollars to several American universities.

Bin Laden is estranged from his family and from Saudi Arabia, which revoked his citizenship in the early 1990s after he was caught smuggling weapons from Yemen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[archive_Ulter]

That story doesn't say who arranged for the jet and what the circumstances were. The details of the jet are still unknown. Some people believe the jet did not leave 3 days after the airports opened but rather while they were still closed. Other people want to know why these people were able to leave the country at a time when people just like them were being detained at airports everywhere. Hence the law suit. The question I have is why does it take a law suit to get the details of this mystery plane if there were no improprieties. I really don't care about getting these people out of here, they had nothing to with 9/11. But neither did lots of other people who could not leave simply because they weren't friends of the Bush's.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[Stud Diesel]

I see what you are saying. I dunno. Diplomatic immunity, maybe? Otherwise it should be available through the Freedom of Information Act (http://www.usdoj.gov/oip/foia_updates/Vol_XVII_4/page2.htm). I didn’t read through it entirely, I just did a word search for diplomat(s) and nothing came up.

[VOX - DEI]

Have you seen what happens when the ACLU requests something using the guise of the FOIA?

Nothing!!! The FOIA is a fucking joke!


50% of what any federal employee writes is a matter of national security.

I may be embellishing, but I'm not being facetious.

__________________________________________________ ___________________________________

If I post anything foolish or incorrect please correct me.

Thank you for your cooperation

People have way too many convictions in this country. Lighten the fuck up! http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

There is right and wrong, but only God knows which one is which. I am always having trouble finding an answer that I "think" has more right than wrong in it.

[Stud Diesel]

You know more about it than I do. I do recall reading that since its inception (1967?) it has been amended over and over again, probably to—like you said, make it harder to get information.

[archive_Bjaarki]

I saw the film a few days ago, and was very disappointed, this from a liberal Democrat. Lots of cheap shots, rewarmed "news," nothing really interesting, except .....

..... the US/Saudi connection (which is nothing new to the Bush presidency). The film does a good job of keeping some very uncomfortable questions about all that in front of us. We're not going to know in our lifetimes all the ins-and-outs of our relationship with the Saudis, that will take historians generations to uncover. But I, for one, am very disturbed by what appears to be a horribly corrupt and corrupting relationship.

I hated the film, alright, but I still walked out and wrote a $100 check to the Kerry campaign. That's because I don't mind getting the government I deserve, but it really pisses me off when I'm saddled with the government that you deserve.

Bjaarki

... Then, do what you have to do.

[The Rock]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by METHYL MIKE:
This movie is a real eye opener, i mean when you watch it you MUST know michael moor is a flaming liberal, but there are enough facts in the movie to make you sick. 9/11 was alloweed to happen, either on purpose so we would voluntarily give up more freedom, or on accident because bush is a MORON. He is so dumb its insane, i mean hes a moron and he runs the country?! He killed for oil, i mean the war in iraq was utter bullshit, yes we should have killed saddam and all that, but not so fast, not the way it happened, not in such a way that its dragging on and our troops are dying for NOTHING. I hate politics more than ever, we dont have anyone to vote for anymore, the people we see arent us, we dont vote people to represent us anymore. Its all sickening and im glad for once people can see all the shit the media censors out. Please watch teh movie, thoughts and opinions please<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Im not an idiot otherwise i might not have noticed the fact that moore is a flaming liberal, HOWEVER can you deny all the ties bush has to the bin laden group? Does it seem a little odd to you that bush was never a grass roots politician, he seemed to just get carried into whatever he wants? Hes an idiot figure head, plain and simple, for gods sakes he doesnt read his own speeches! Listen to the joke at the end of the movie! Ill try to quote it, bush says "Theres a quote in tennesee, well texas really, i mean they probably have one in tennessee, but anyway uh...You can fool somebody, once but uh you cant fool them anotehr time." And he looks dead serious. Come on. No speech writer would have written that, bush is arrogant as hell, he doenst feel the need to work whatsoever because daddy and his family just put him up into whatever and wherever he wants! This guy is running our country! He was warned about 9/11 numerous times and didnt even pay attention! If someone you knew died that day you might feel different, if someone YOU knew was in Iraq now you might just care a little. He is making choices that dont affect anything but his pocketbook, i have 2 friends IN IRAQ doing nothing but risking their lives every fucking day and until i really feel the war is and was justified i will continue to bash the moron who put them there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Yeah now that i think about everything and ive discussed the film with a couple friends who are slightly more politically savvy than i ive found that the film actually sucks. WHy? Because its presented as factual, but its really not, its purely an opnionated piece in which moore is trying to make the president look bad. If it had been purely facts, like i thought it was, i would liek it, but its not, and i think its despicable that someone would make a movie like this. The sad thing is hes profiting from it, and even sadder is a lot of young people will see the movie, and not know it isnt a factual documentary, and their minds will be swayed. In retrospect, its a piece of garbage, and im regretting putting money into that idiots pockets. One thing, for the people who have seen it, did you see the scene where there is a tourist getting beaten? I came to find out moore held that piece of footage so he could put it into his movie. That is BULLSHIT you cant hold onto things like that for personal gain! Fuck moore and fuck the movie. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Way to stick to your guns. Good job, buddy.

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

I have not seen the movie yet, so with that in mind please excuse any inaccuracies I may have.

Based on what I heard Moore takes cheap shots at Bush.....so what, Clinton was a target for the right from day one.
You say it contained old crap and warmed up old news.....I say the average american is not as educated or informed as we are, for them it may turn out to be an eye opener.

If it serves to stimulate broader discussion among registered voters and makes people consider alternatives to the daily news than the movie (lets not call it documentary) serves its purpose. If it makes you think than it reached its goal.

It may be just another "Oliver Stone" shiat but so what? The average american was blinded by the news media into supporting GWB and his subsequent adventure into Iraq......THEY failed to provide balanced reporting.

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[SteelPreacher]

This sounds more like a Support for Bush thread than a thread about people who have seen Fareheit 9-11. Michael Moore said in every interview that I saw, he was presenting HIS OPINIONS along with well known facts so Im not sure why people are upset about that. Even if any of you thought Moore could have done a better job, I can't understand anyone defending Bush. Believe me he pays enough people to do that for him he doesn't need your help and could care less about you. In My Opinion Bush is a Moron. We were flat out lied to about the war by a president who stole the office. The war is about money and our people are dying for it. We have no Bin Laden, No Jobs, No WMD, Oil prices are at all time highs. You could tell me that Bush helps little old ladies across the street, and sells girlscout cookies giving the money to homeless people, and I would still say F*CK HIM HES A F*CKING LIER, THEIF, WANNABE DICTATOR THAT PROFITS OFF THE BLOOD OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

I can make you a celebrity overnight.

Winners see problems as just another way to prove themselves! D.T.

[archive_METHYL MIKE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Rock:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by METHYL MIKE:
This movie is a real eye opener, i mean when you watch it you MUST know michael moor is a flaming liberal, but there are enough facts in the movie to make you sick. 9/11 was alloweed to happen, either on purpose so we would voluntarily give up more freedom, or on accident because bush is a MORON. He is so dumb its insane, i mean hes a moron and he runs the country?! He killed for oil, i mean the war in iraq was utter bullshit, yes we should have killed saddam and all that, but not so fast, not the way it happened, not in such a way that its dragging on and our troops are dying for NOTHING. I hate politics more than ever, we dont have anyone to vote for anymore, the people we see arent us, we dont vote people to represent us anymore. Its all sickening and im glad for once people can see all the shit the media censors out. Please watch teh movie, thoughts and opinions please<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Im not an idiot otherwise i might not have noticed the fact that moore is a flaming liberal, HOWEVER can you deny all the ties bush has to the bin laden group? Does it seem a little odd to you that bush was never a grass roots politician, he seemed to just get carried into whatever he wants? Hes an idiot figure head, plain and simple, for gods sakes he doesnt read his own speeches! Listen to the joke at the end of the movie! Ill try to quote it, bush says "Theres a quote in tennesee, well texas really, i mean they probably have one in tennessee, but anyway uh...You can fool somebody, once but uh you cant fool them anotehr time." And he looks dead serious. Come on. No speech writer would have written that, bush is arrogant as hell, he doenst feel the need to work whatsoever because daddy and his family just put him up into whatever and wherever he wants! This guy is running our country! He was warned about 9/11 numerous times and didnt even pay attention! If someone you knew died that day you might feel different, if someone YOU knew was in Iraq now you might just care a little. He is making choices that dont affect anything but his pocketbook, i have 2 friends IN IRAQ doing nothing but risking their lives every fucking day and until i really feel the war is and was justified i will continue to bash the moron who put them there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Yeah now that i think about everything and ive discussed the film with a couple friends who are slightly more politically savvy than i ive found that the film actually sucks. WHy? Because its presented as factual, but its really not, its purely an opnionated piece in which moore is trying to make the president look bad. If it had been purely facts, like i thought it was, i would liek it, but its not, and i think its despicable that someone would make a movie like this. The sad thing is hes profiting from it, and even sadder is a lot of young people will see the movie, and not know it isnt a factual documentary, and their minds will be swayed. In retrospect, its a piece of garbage, and im regretting putting money into that idiots pockets. One thing, for the people who have seen it, did you see the scene where there is a tourist getting beaten? I came to find out moore held that piece of footage so he could put it into his movie. That is BULLSHIT you cant hold onto things like that for personal gain! Fuck moore and fuck the movie. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Way to stick to your guns. Good job, buddy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The first thing i said when i wrote this thread was right after i saw the movie. I talked, like i said, to a few people who know politics a little better than i do and i began to understand the film better. How did i not stick to my guns m8? HEre is where i stand-Bush is a LIAR and manipulative as hell, but you have to keep in mind he is just a puppet. More so than the last few presidents, i mean his job is to basically stand around and give meaningless speeches and be a mascot for our country, and for the most part he sucks at that too. I thought the film was some sort of documentary on what really happened on 9/11, and it wasnt, was i wrong for stating that? The film is garbage, IMO, because its being used to sway voters away from bush. Will i vote for bush? HELL NO. Kerry? HELL NO. Im just not voting, our choices, as usual, are basically the lesser of 2 evils, and i vote for neither. One cant wipe his ass unless someone tells him to, the other changes his mind on a weekly basis, depending on how voters are reacting to what he's saying. They both suck IMO. What the hell happened to the grassroots political system? These days it appears to be who you know. Period. Thats not MY country.

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
HELL NO. Im just not voting, our choices, as usual, are basically the lesser of 2 evils, and i vote for neither. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First things first: We need to get rid of the morons presently in charge and these are Dick, Johnny and King George. Period. Then we can think of grassroots movements and making the necessary changes.....this is a slow and cumbersome process, but if you do not vote Dem and are unhappy with how things are going, then you help maintain the current status and establishment.
Nader, as an alternative choice, is an asshole IMHO, driven by ego and he does not care whats wrong right now. Why he does not wait for the end of the election for his moralistic approach to politics and work his magic when the stakes are lower, just erks me.

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[archive_Ulter]

Now that I have finally seen it....

I liked the movie. Some of it is conjecture by Moore but I expected that. What was significant in this film was the way he explained all the players and their roles. This was done very well and made it easy to follow along with why we're in Iraq. It was also good to see someone show how stupid W is. Most people around him know it but the public doesn't get a chance to see it. This was where Moore didn't need to say or do anything, and he didn't. All he had to do was stand back and let the tape roll. Bush took care of the rest.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[~ JP ~]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ulter:

...All he had to do was stand back and let the tape roll. Bush took care of the rest.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I am no fan of bush but don't you think moore edited this to convey maximum stupidity?

Though it is still probably true there. I saw I list posted somewhere of presidential IQ's. Bush was literally almost half of Clinton. Like him or not, Slick Willie was a sharp guy.

[Stud Diesel]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ulter:
It was also good to see someone show how stupid W is. Most people around him know it but the public doesn't get a chance to see it. This was where Moore didn't need to say or do anything, and he didn't. All he had to do was stand back and let the tape roll. Bush took care of the rest.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ulter, are you sure you are not Hispanos? Seriously though; I don’t believe he lacks mental capacity per se. I don’t know what you would call it. Lack of fluency in English? No, that can’t be it. Ha hah! All I can say on that is the inarticulate can be intelligent and the fluent stupid.

[macdaddy]

I saw the movie with my wife last night. Because I've read a lot about the subject matter I knew where to separate the wheat from the chaff. I wish the film had been made by someone with more integrity. Some of the things presented as fact are fiction.

However, the things in the movie that are fact, cold hard fact, like NO WMD's the money being made by Dick Cheney due to the war in Iraq, are enough to piss me off. Cheney still owns hundreds of thousands of shares of stock in Haliburton, stock which is much, much more valuable due to the war. Moore didn't even cover that. The Bush family are major stakeholders in companies making a LOT of money in this war.

I found the pictures of the dead and wounded grotesque and very hard to see, but I'm glad I did. I think we should damn well know what we are sending our kids into and what we are doing to the kids of others. The grief of the mother whose son was killed was so hard to see and so easy to understand.

I didn't like the way our men in combat were at times portrayed as bloodthirsty morons, some of these guys are so damn young, they are trained and doing what they are asked to do and trying to maintain sanity while doing it.

Whatever my view on the war I totally support our troops, our men and women, our kids who are doing as they are asked to do by a corrupt government.

Here is a little story for you guys. In March 2003 I was traveling for work stranded in the airport in Denver (blizzard) having a beer and a smoke in the bar called the smoking lounge. This kids came in, a floppy haired kid, he just wanted to have a cigarette. The waiter informed this guy that he couldn't stay in the bar if he didn't buy something and he was only 18 and couldn't have a beer and didn't have the cash for a $5 soda. Some of us setpped in, he was off to basic training and hed never been in an ariport before, he was going to train to be an army medic. Here we were with this kid in front of, knowing he was going into harms way, and Colin Powell on the big screen telling us about WMD's. What a contrast. We bought the kid a soda gave him all the smokes he wanted and took a collection so he could get a beer on base when he was done with basic. I think about that kid all the time, I hope he lived.

My oldest son is 15, very close to service age. I would be proud if he chose to serve our country in the military, but God, oh God, I pray that he doesn't have to fight or die for someone's wallet.

P.S. Keep your eye's open, if Bush wins there will be a draft next year, and if Kerry wins there is still a strong possibility. What we bombed over there was the lid right off Pandora's Box.

[archive_Ulter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JuicePimp:

Though it is still probably true there. I saw I list posted somewhere of presidential IQ's. Bush was literally almost half of Clinton. Like him or not, Slick Willie was a sharp guy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And Carter was smarter than all of them. For whatever that's worth.
Some of it was edited to show W look stupid with the faces he was making, yes. But him stumbling through the lie at the BBQ about how he was going to be working that day was all W. Him sitting there not knowing what to do when his chief of staff told him we were under attack on 9/11 was all him.
Telling the camera about how important he was because of his access to his Dad was all him.
And there were other choice moments.

SD I assume you haven't looked at his record of consistant bankuptcies in business and miserable failures as governor, cutting taxes so deep that the schools and highways went broke or his miserable grades in school. If you did you would draw the conclusion that this man is a blithering idiot.

macd, I thought that part of the film was uncomfortable and maybe out of place. Maybe.

I thought is was brilliant when Moore had the commander of a group of men in Iraq in his chair on Christmas and showing him saying, "we need to win the hearts and minds of the people" exactly the same way Peter Davis did in '74 with Gen. Westmoreland in the Oscar winning documentary Hearts and Minds.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[archive_METHYL MIKE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JuicePimp:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ulter:

...All he had to do was stand back and let the tape roll. Bush took care of the rest.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I am no fan of bush but don't you think moore edited this to convey maximum stupidity?

Though it is still probably true there. I saw I list posted somewhere of presidential IQ's. Bush was literally almost half of Clinton. Like him or not, Slick Willie was a sharp guy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Much more than you might think! He sold coke before being elected, and then managed to keep his biz alive while president. Remember all those pardons he gave out to the kingpins in prison? I would assume he's a very rich man now. ANd his neutrality, its caused so many deaths now, so much wasted money, i mean in so many ways he was a detriment to this country, yet all anyone remembers was the stain on the dress...

[archive_Mickey]

I am not a big Bush fan but do you guys really want John Kerry in the White House?

He was the most liberal guy in the Senate!

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[Curious George]

I don't usually talk politics on the board because everybody has a different take on things.

Do I really want Kerry in the White House?

I look at it this way: Is the world and the US better off now that W has had 4 years in the office?

Economy?...No! The Economy is much worse and more fragile, the jobs that we have gotten back are not high paying jobs, there is talk of Bush trying to get the immigrant workers to have the right to vote......which would help his election bid and also help companies to outsource labor....hurting our economy but helping the rich get richer. The job wages on the new jobs have also not risen to the inflation amount. I know that the economy is cyclical, but we were better off when Clinton was in office. Enron....Kenneth Lay was Bush's best friend. He crippled people's retirement, not to mention putting them out of work and causing damge to the ecomomy. Halliburton....We all know about this. It really is twisted. The midwest and the rustbelt jobs keep hanging on, just barely due to outsourcing. I wonder what the consumers are going to do when the auto companies have to take all the incentives away?

I mean, that's just the economy....Not going into detail about the UN not being with us, people from his own administration resigning (ie. Richard Clarke and presumably Colin Powell if re-elected), the elevation of hatred for the US around the world, The abuse of the Patriot Act, the refusal to apologize when the troops hazed the prisoners of war, his nonsensical use of "terror" in all of his speaches to convey his message of false patriotism.....

I know people will dissagree with some of my statements and each have thier own opinion....that was mine and mine alone. I hate the fucker and will do whatever it takes to get him out.

Do I really want Kerry in the White House? I don't know, but I damn sure know I don't want Bush!!!

Take Good Care,

Cg

[~ JP ~]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by METHYL MIKE:
Much more than you might think! He sold coke before being elected, and then managed to keep his biz alive while president. Remember all those pardons he gave out to the kingpins in prison? I would assume he's a very rich man now. ANd his neutrality, its caused so many deaths now, so much wasted money, i mean in so many ways he was a detriment to this country, yet all anyone remembers was the stain on the dress...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I saw a website a long time ago that you might be interested in. It was called the Clinton Dead. It made very detailed accuastions of people dying due to direct action by Bill Clinton, dating way back. It never said that he pulled the trigger, but there were a number of mysterious disapearances and such relating to the airstrip operation that I believe you are referring to as his drug dealing. Its a interesting read for those into conspiracy theories, and while of some questionable validity does make you question what the people in power are really capable of.

[Curious George]

Do you think Kenneth Starr had anything to do with this report JuicePimp?

Take Good Care,

Cg

[archive_Ulter]

I am no big Kerry fan and Edwards while the only choice for Kerry if wants the south is no great addition. But the alternative is to reward the bullets for oil guys and that would just be a very sad day in America. I'd rather see Jesse Jackson in the White House than 4 more years of W, and I'm from Chicago so you know how ridiculous that is.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[archive_Mickey]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Jesse Jackson in the White House <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.anabolicfitness.net/smileys/lol2[1].gif

Damn you dont like Bush. I dont like him either but I just dont know if I want Kerry in there giving away everything to everybody and inching us closer to the Socialist Republic of the United States.

Every president lines their pockets. They are all rich. Kerry is a freakin billionaire! So you need to say whats more important to you: a guy who made money off a war or a guy who is already loaded and is going to be extremely liberal and give away stuff that you hardworking business owners work for?

Bush already took away a lot of our rights with that damn Patriot Act. I am just scared that Kerry is going to do even more than that. I feel like we are stuck, we are screwed either way http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[archive_Mickey]

Ok guys this was emailed to me so I thought I would post it for you to read. Do not rip me for it because I didnt write it and I DO NOT KNOW IF IT IS TRUE!!!! Dont shoot the messenger http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



Regardless of your party affiliation, this is interesting...

Maria Teresa Thiersten Simoes-Ferreira Heinz Kerry

Married Senator John Kerry in 1995. She only took his name eighteen months ago and she is an "interesting" paradox of conflicts. If you think John Kerry is scary, he doesn't hold a candle to his wife!

Maria Teresa Thiersten Simoes-Ferreira Heinz Kerry was born in Mozambique, the daughter of a Portuguese physician, was educated in Switzerland and South Africa. Fluent in five languages, she was working as a United Nations interpreter in Geneva in the mid-60s when she met a "handsome" young American, H. John Heinz, III, who worked at a bank in Geneva. He told her his family was "in the food business."

They were married in 1966 and returned to Pittsburgh where his family ran the giant H.J. Heinz food company. He was elected to the US House of Representatives in 1971, and in 1976 he was elected to the first of three terms in the United States Senate. A Republican, he wrote a burning diatribe
against some of the causes backed by young House member (John Kerry).

Several years later, in 1991, he was killed when his plane collided
with a Sun Oil Company helicopter over a Philadelphia suburb. The senator,
his pilot and copilot, and both of Sun's helicopter pilots were killed. He was survived by his wife, Teresa, and their three young sons.

Four years later, having inherited Heinz's $500 million fortune, she married Senator John Forbes Kerry, the liberal junior senator from Massachusetts. She became a registered Democrat and the process of her radicalization
was set in motion. Heinz Kerry is not shy about telling people that she
required Kerry to sign a prenuptial agreement before they were married. John Kerry may not have check writing privileges on the Heinz catsup and pickle
fortune, but he is certainly a willing and uncomplaining beneficiary of it. A lot of hard-earned money, made through many years of hawking catsup, mustard,
and pickles has fallen into the hands of two people who despise successful entrepreneurship and who believe in the confiscatory redistribution of wealth.

So how does Mrs. Heinz Kerry spend John Heinz's money?

Just one example: According to the G2 Bulletin, an online intelligence newsletter of WorldNetDaily, in the years between 1995-2001 she gave
more than $4 million to an organization called the Tides Foundation. And what does the Tides Foundation do with John Heinz's money?

They support numerous antiwar groups, including Ramsey Clark's International Action Center. Clark has offered to defend Saddam
Hussein when he's tried.

They support the Democratic Justice Fund, a joint venture of the Tides Foundation and billionaire hate-monger George Soros. The Democratic Justice Fund seeks to ease restrictions on Muslim immigration from "terrorist" states.

They support the Council for American-Islamic Relations, whose
leaders are known to have close ties to the terrorist group, Hamas.

They support the National Lawyers Guild, organized as a communist front during the Cold War era. One of their attorneys, Lynne Stewart, has
been arrested for helping a client, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, communicate
with terror cells in Egypt. He is the convicted mastermind of the 1993 World
Trade Center bombing.

They support the "Barrio Warriors," a radical Hispanic group whose primary goal is to return all of Arizona, California, New Mexico, and Texas to Mexico.

These are but a few of the radical groups that benefit, through the anonymity provided by the Tides Foundation, from the generosity of our would-be first lady, the wealthy widow of Republican senator John Heinz, and now the
wife of the Democratic senator who aspires to be the 44th President of the United States.

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[archive_Ulter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> According to the G2 Bulletin, an online intelligence newsletter of WorldNetDaily <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is hilarious. Have you ever seen this place? It looks like the Onion but they're seriously trying to pass it off as journalism.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[Stud Diesel]

Ulter; nah, I was just making light of what I know is a very serious situation to a lot of people. Growing up in the Washington D.C. area, you shouldn’t be surprised that people from my parts are so cynical. Washingtonians hate politics, as do most Americans, but when you live around here you grow to really detest it, and you tune a lot of it out. We hear it everyday right from the source, and then I’ll read messages on bulletin boards from people across the country whom regurgitate “party lines” from BOTH sides that it really makes me wonder if anybody really thinks for themselves anymore. Don’t they teach critical thinking in college anymore?

And don’t get me started on the conspiracy theories; those are my pet peeves; the Clinton dead list, Bush selling coke, the CIA selling crack. STOP IT! Question everything you read from both sides and consider reading “Why People Believe Weird Things” by Michael Shermer, and then if you like that; consider subscribing to the Skeptical Inquirer magazine.

[Stud Diesel]

Text Of Clinton Statement On Iraq
Text of President Clinton's address to Joint Chiefs of Staff and Pentagon staff:

Please be seated. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Mr. Vice President, for your remarks and your leadership. Thank you, Secretary Cohen, for the superb job you have done here at the Pentagon and on this most recent very difficult problem. Thank you, General Shelton, for being the right person at the right time.

Thank you, General Ralston, and the members of the joint chiefs, General Zinni, Secretary Albright, Secretary Slater, DCIA Tenet, Mr. Bowles, Mr. Berger, Senator Robb thank you for being here and Congressman Skelton. Thank you very much, and for your years of service to America and your passionate patriotism both of you. And to the members of our armed forces and others who work here to protect our national security.

I have just received a very fine briefing from our military leadership on the status of our forces in the Persian Gulf. Before I left the Pentagon, I wanted to talk to you and all those whom you represent the men and women of our military. You, your friends and your colleagues are on the front lines of this crisis in Iraq.

I want you, and I want the American people, to hear directly from me what is at stake for America in the Persian Gulf, what we are doing to protect the peace, the security, the freedom we cherish, why we have taken the position we have taken.

I was thinking as I sat up here on the platform, of the slogan that the first lady gave me for her project on the millennium, which was, remembering the past and imagining the future.

Now, for that project, that means preserving the Star Spangled Banner and the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and it means making an unprecedented commitment to medical research and to get the best of the new technology. But that's not a bad slogan for us when we deal with more sober, more difficult, more dangerous matters.

Those who have questioned the United States in this moment, I would argue, are living only in the moment. They have neither remembered the past nor imagined the future.

So first, let's just take a step back and consider why meeting the threat posed by Saddam Hussein is important to our security in the new era we are entering.

This is a time of tremendous promise for America. The superpower confrontation has ended; on every continent democracy is securing for more and more people the basic freedoms we Americans have come to take for granted. Bit by bit the information age is chipping away at the barriers economic, political and social that once kept people locked in and freedom and prosperity locked out.

But for all our promise, all our opportunity, people in this room know very well that this is not a time free from peril, especially as a result of reckless acts of outlaw nations and an unholy axis of terrorists, drug traffickers and organized international criminals.

We have to defend our future from these predators of the 21st century. They feed on the free flow of information and technology. They actually take advantage of the freer movement of people, information and ideas.

And they will be all the more lethal if we allow them to build arsenals of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them. We simply cannot allow that to happen.

There is no more clear example of this threat than Saddam Hussein's Iraq. His regime threatens the safety of his people, the stability of his region and the security of all the rest of us.

I want the American people to understand first the past how did this crisis come about?

And I want them to understand what we must do to protect the national interest, and indeed the interest of all freedom-loving people in the world.

Remember, as a condition of the cease-fire after the Gulf War, the United Nations demanded not the United States the United Nations demanded, and Saddam Hussein agreed to declare within 15 days this is way back in 1991 within 15 days his nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them, to make a total declaration. That's what he promised to do.

The United Nations set up a special commission of highly trained international experts called UNSCOM, to make sure that Iraq made good on that commitment. We had every good reason to insist that Iraq disarm. Saddam had built up a terrible arsenal, and he had used it not once, but many times, in a decade-long war with Iran, he used chemical weapons, against combatants, against civilians, against a foreign adversary, and even against his own people.

And during the Gulf War, Saddam launched Scuds against Saudi Arabia, Israel and Bahrain.

Now, instead of playing by the very rules he agreed to at the end of the Gulf War, Saddam has spent the better part of the past decade trying to cheat on this solemn commitment. Consider just some of the facts:

Iraq repeatedly made false declarations about the weapons that it had left in its possession after the Gulf War. When UNSCOM would then uncover evidence that gave lie to those declarations, Iraq would simply amend the reports.

For example, Iraq revised its nuclear declarations four times within just 14 months and it has submitted six different biological warfare declarations, each of which has been rejected by UNSCOM.

In 1995, Hussein Kamal, Saddam's son-in-law, and the chief organizer of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program, defected to Jordan. He revealed that Iraq was continuing to conceal weapons and missiles and the capacity to build many more.

Then and only then did Iraq admit to developing numbers of weapons in significant quantities and weapon stocks. Previously, it had vehemently denied the very thing it just simply admitted once Saddam Hussein's son-in-law defected to Jordan and told the truth. Now listen to this, what did it admit?

It admitted, among other things, an offensive biological warfare capability notably 5,000 gallons of botulinum, which causes botulism; 2,000 gallons of anthrax; 25 biological-filled Scud warheads; and 157 aerial bombs.

And I might say UNSCOM inspectors believe that Iraq has actually greatly understated its production.

As if we needed further confirmation, you all know what happened to his son-in-law when he made the untimely decision to go back to Iraq.

Next, throughout this entire process, Iraqi agents have undermined and undercut UNSCOM. They've harassed the inspectors, lied to them, disabled monitoring cameras, literally spirited evidence out of the back doors of suspect facilities as inspectors walked through the front door. And our people were there observing it and had the pictures to prove it.

Despite Iraq's deceptions, UNSCOM has nevertheless done a remarkable job. Its inspectors the eyes and ears of the civilized world have uncovered and destroyed more weapons of mass destruction capacity than was destroyed during the Gulf War.

This includes nearly 40,000 chemical weapons, more than 100,000 gallons of chemical weapons agents, 48 operational missiles, 30 warheads specifically fitted for chemical and biological weapons, and a massive biological weapons facility at Al Hakam equipped to produce anthrax and other deadly agents.

Over the past few months, as they have come closer and closer to rooting out Iraq's remaining nuclear capacity, Saddam has undertaken yet another gambit to thwart their ambitions.

By imposing debilitating conditions on the inspectors and declaring key sites which have still not been inspected off limits, including, I might add, one palace in Baghdad more than 2,600 acres large by comparison, when you hear all this business about presidential sites reflect our sovereignty, why do you want to come into a residence, the White House complex is 18 acres. So you'll have some feel for this.

One of these presidential sites is about the size of Washington, D.C. That's about how many acres did you tell me it was? 40,000 acres. We're not talking about a few rooms here with delicate personal matters involved.

It is obvious that there is an attempt here, based on the whole history of this operation since 1991, to protect whatever remains of his capacity to produce weapons of mass destruction, the missiles to deliver them, and the feed stocks necessary to produce them.

The UNSCOM inspectors believe that Iraq still has stockpiles of chemical and biological munitions, a small force of Scud-type missiles, and the capacity to restart quickly its production program and build many, many more weapons.

Now, against that background, let us remember the past here. It is against that background that we have repeatedly and unambiguously made clear our preference for a diplomatic solution.

The inspection system works. The inspection system has worked in the face of lies, stonewalling, obstacle after obstacle after obstacle. The people who have done that work deserve the thanks of civilized people throughout the world.

It has worked. That is all we want. And if we can find a diplomatic way to do what has to be done, to do what he promised to do at the end of the Gulf War, to do what should have been done within 15 days within 15 days of the agreement at the end of the Gulf War, if we can find a diplomatic way to do that, that is by far our preference.

But to be a genuine solution, and not simply one that glosses over the remaining problem, a diplomatic solution must include or meet a clear, immutable, reasonable, simple standard.

Iraq must agree and soon, to free, full, unfettered access to these sites anywhere in the country. There can be no dilution or diminishment of the integrity of the inspection system that UNSCOM has put in place.

Now those terms are nothing more or less than the essence of what he agreed to at the end of the Gulf War. The Security Council, many times since, has reiterated this standard. If he accepts them, force will not be necessary. If he refuses or continues to evade his obligations through more tactics of delay and deception, he and he alone will be to blame for the consequences.

I ask all of you to remember the record here what he promised to do within 15 days of the end of the Gulf War, what he repeatedly refused to do, what we found out in 1995, what the inspectors have done against all odds. We have no business agreeing to any resolution of this that does not include free, unfettered access to the remaining sites by people who have integrity and proven confidence in the inspection business. That should be our standard. That's what UNSCOM has done, and that's why I have been fighting for it so hard. And that's why the United States should insist upon it.

Now, let's imagine the future. What if he fails to comply, and we fail to act, or we take some ambiguous third route which gives him yet more opportunities to develop this program of weapons of mass destruction and continue to press for the release of the sanctions and continue to ignore the solemn commitments that he made?

Well, he will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on and do more to rebuild an arsenal of devastating destruction.

And some day, some way, I guarantee you, he'll use the arsenal. And I think every one of you who's really worked on this for any length of time believes that, too.

Now we have spent several weeks building up our forces in the Gulf, and building a coalition of like-minded nations. Our force posture would not be possible without the support of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, the GCC states and Turkey. Other friends and allies have agreed to provide forces, bases or logistical support, including the United Kingdom, Germany, Spain and Portugal, Denmark and the Netherlands, Hungary and Poland and the Czech Republic, Argentina, Iceland, Australia and New Zealand and our friends and neighbors in Canada.

That list is growing, not because anyone wants military action, but because there are people in this world who believe the United Nations resolutions should mean something, because they understand what UNSCOM has achieved, because they remember the past, and because they can imagine what the future will be depending on what we do now.

If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program. We want to seriously reduce his capacity to threaten his neighbors.

I am quite confident, from the briefing I have just received from our military leaders, that we can achieve the objective and secure our vital strategic interests.

Let me be clear: A military operation cannot destroy all the weapons of mass destruction capacity. But it can and will leave him significantly worse off than he is now in terms of the ability to threaten the world with these weapons or to attack his neighbors.

And he will know that the international community continues to have a will to act if and when he threatens again. Following any strike, we will carefully monitor Iraq's activities with all the means at our disposal. If he seeks to rebuild his weapons of mass destruction, we will be prepared to strike him again.

The economic sanctions will remain in place until Saddam complies fully with all U.N. resolutions.

Consider this already these sanctions have denied him $110 billion. Imagine how much stronger his armed forces would be today, how many more weapons of mass destruction operations he would have hidden around the country if he had been able to spend even a small fraction of that amount for a military rebuilding.

We will continue to enforce a no-fly zone from the southern suburbs of Baghdad to the Kuwait border and in northern Iraq, making it more difficult for Iraq to walk over Kuwait again or threaten the Kurds in the north.

Now, let me say to all of you here as all of you know the weightiest decision any president ever has to make is to send our troops into harm's way. And force can never be the first answer. But sometimes, it's the only answer.

You are the best prepared, best equipped, best trained fighting force in the world. And should it prove necessary for me to exercise the option of force, your commanders will do everything they can to protect the safety of all the men and women under their command.

No military action, however, is risk-free. I know that the people we may call upon in uniform are ready. The American people have to be ready as well.

Dealing with Saddam Hussein requires constant vigilance. We have seen that constant vigilance pays off. But it requires constant vigilance. Since the Gulf War, we have pushed back every time Saddam has posed a threat.

When Baghdad plotted to assassinate former President Bush, we struck hard at Iraq's intelligence headquarters.

When Saddam threatened another invasion by amassing his troops in Kuwait along the Kuwaiti border in 1994, we immediately deployed our troops, our ships, our planes, and Saddam backed down.

When Saddam forcefully occupied Irbil in northern Iraq, we broadened our control over Iraq's skies by extending the no-fly zone.

But there is no better example, again I say, than the U.N. weapons inspection system itself. Yes, he has tried to thwart it in every conceivable way, but the discipline, determination, year-in-year-out effort of these weapons inspectors is doing the job. And we seek to finish the job. Let there be no doubt, we are prepared to act.

But Saddam Hussein could end this crisis tomorrow simply by letting the weapons inspectors complete their mission. He made a solemn commitment to the international community to do that and to give up his weapons of mass destruction a long time ago now. One way or the other, we are determined to see that he makes good on his own promise.

Saddam Hussein's Iraq reminds us of what we learned in the 20th century and warns us of what we must know about the 21st. In this century, we learned through harsh experience that the only answer to aggression and illegal behavior is firmness, determination, and when necessary action.

In the next century, the community of nations may see more and more the very kind of threat Iraq poses now a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction ready to use them or provide them to terrorists, drug traffickers or organized criminals who travel the world among us unnoticed.

If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow by the knowledge that they can act with impunity, even in the face of a clear message from the United Nations Security Council and clear evidence of a weapons of mass destruction program.

But if we act as one, we can safeguard our interests and send a clear message to every would-be tyrant and terrorist that the international community does have the wisdom and the will and the way to protect peace and security in a new era. That is the future I ask you all to imagine. That is the future I ask our allies to imagine.

If we look at the past and imagine that future, we will act as one together. And we still have, God willing, a chance to find a diplomatic resolution to this, and if not, God willing, the chance to do the right thing for our children and grandchildren.

Thank you very much.

[Stud Diesel]

This is from our own quaint little alternative newspaper; The Washington Post http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Clinton Writ Small

By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, June 25, 2004; Page A29

Since 1960 we have had only two politically successful presidents -- reaffirmed and reelected, dominating their decades: Reagan and Clinton. (Except for Kennedy, whose presidency was cut short, the others -- Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter and Bush 41 -- were repudiated.) Clinton's autobiography, appearing as it does in such close conjunction to the national remembrance of Reagan, invites the inevitable comparison.

The contrast is obvious. Reagan was the hedgehog who knew -- and did -- a few very large things: fighting and winning the Cold War, reviving the economy, and beginning a fundamental restructuring of the welfare state.

Clinton was the fox. He knew -- and accomplished -- small things. His autobiography is a perfect reflection of that -- a wild mishmash of remembrance, anecdote, appointment calendar and political payback. This themeless pudding of a million small things is just what you would expect from a president who once gave a Saturday radio address on school uniforms.

Small, but not always unimportant. Clinton did conclude NAFTA and did sign welfare reform. His greatest achievement was an act of brilliant passivity: He got out of the way of one of the largest peacetime economic expansions in American history. And though he takes personal credit for all the jobs created -- a ridiculous assertion to make about the decade of Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates -- he does deserve credit for not screwing things up. Presidents often do. He easily could have.

His great failing was foreign policy. Viewing the world through the narrow legalist lens of liberal internationalism, he spent most of his presidency drafting and signing treaty after useless treaty on such things as biological, chemical and nuclear weapons. All this in a world where the biggest problem comes from terrorists and rogue states for whom treaties are meaningless.

Like the 1920s, the 1990s were a golden age permeated by a postwar euphoria of apparently endless peace and prosperity. Both eras ended abruptly, undermined ultimately by threats that were ignored as they grew and burrowed underground. Clinton let a decade of unprecedented American prosperity and power go without doing anything about al Qaeda, Afghanistan or Iraq (where his weakness allowed France and Russia to almost totally undermine the post-Gulf War sanctions). And although al Qaeda declared war on America in 1996 and, as we now know, hatched the Sept. 11 plot that same year, it continued to flourish throughout the decade.

Looking the other way was largely a function of the age -- our holiday from history, our retreat from seriousness, our Seinfeld decade of obsessive ordinariness. Clinton never could have been elected during the Cold War. The 1990s produced a president perfectly suited to the time -- a time of domesticity, triviality and self-absorption.

Its essence is captured perfectly, and inadvertently, in one sentence, Clinton's own account of his response to al Qaeda's most spectacular and murderous pre-Sept. 11 outrage: the African embassy bombings of Aug. 7, 1998. Ten days afterward, Clinton made his televised confession of having lied to the nation for seven months about the Monica Lewinsky affair. He then retired to a chilly vacation on Martha's Vineyard with his wife and daughter. Two days later, he emerged by helicopter on the White House lawn, gave a snappy salute and marched into the Oval Office to announce the bombing of an al Qaeda camp in Afghanistan and a chemical factory in Sudan.

Clinton writes: "I spent the first couple of days [after the confession] alternating between begging for forgiveness and planning the strikes on al Qaeda."

Or, as he told Oprah this week, "I'm bombing Osama bin Laden's training camp and sleeping on the couch. It was a strange time."

That produced a strange man. His associates called this compartmentalization. I call it trivialization.

One is inevitably reminded of the quite unbelievable image of the president of the United States on the phone with a congressman discussing Bosnia while being simultaneously serviced by Monica Lewinsky.

What was always staggering to me about this scene was not what it says about Clinton's sexual practices -- I couldn't care less one way or another -- but about his unseriousness.

I never hated Clinton. On the contrary, I often expressed admiration for his charm and for the roguish cynicism that allowed him to navigate so many crises. Nor was I scandalized by his escapades. What appalled me then, a feeling that returns as Clinton has gone national revisiting his own presidency, is the smallness of a man who granted equal valence to his own indulgences on the one hand and to the fate of nations on the other. It is the smallness that disturbs. It is that smallness that history will remember.

[archive_Ulter]

I don't disagree with this WP writer for the most part. I always take exception to people who leave out the Eastern Europeans who risked their lives standing up to the Russians as much as Regan did. He's always credited with their downfall without any mention of the fact that Russia had lost control of the satellites that were holding up their economy. It started in a coal mine in Poland because the Russian's allocated only one bar of soap per family, per year. If Polish coal miners didn't risk their lives by standing up to Moscow and by stopping the coal that provided the electricity to their western provinces Russia may have survived the Reagan administration. I remember sitting at the Thanksgiving table and the conversation was how long it would take for the tanks to come rolling in to Poland like they had in Czechoslovakia. But it never came and the other satellites got balls of their own because of what Poland did.
There is no question that Reagan and Star Wars drove the Russians over the edge, he directed the CIA to help the Polish, and he certainly deserves credit for it. But not all the credit.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

On a side note: What was the coal miner's name who led the strike and became president of poland...Lech Valenca or something? I was very young when that went on, but Ulter is right, that was the beginning of the end of the CCCP.

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[archive_Ulter]

Lech Walesa. More balls than brains. Most Polish have no idea how important a role he played in changing the global landscape. I hope history there is kinder to him than the people were.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[Stud Diesel]

I really wish I could vote Democrat for a change. Both of my parents are Democrats, and I know how happy my late mother would feel if her youngest were to vote for her beloved party, even just once. Looking back, it’s easy for me to understand why I turned to the GOP; because just as my parents fondly remember the great John F. Kennedy, I grew up in the eighties with the great Ronald Reagan.

I always think of her when I vote because I was, and I still am a proud momma’s boy. And then every time I look, I’ll end up reading something that will push me away and back to the comfort of my grand old party. Maybe I’m not looking in the right place. Maybe some of you guys could help me to understand. I am not being facetious.

I’m always addressing Ulter because he is always kind enough to answer, so instead, how about I just address this to every liberal and or democrat on this forum. (Of course since the AF Store is a good business, I would certainly enjoy some replies from our chief entrepreneur as well.) http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Do not the statements like those from Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-Cuba) http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif at a recent Democratic party fundraiser bother you just a little?

In case you’re not familiar; she was remarkably frank about the Democrats' intentions to use socialist redistribution policies if the party gains power after the November elections.

As reported by the Associated Press, Sen. Clinton said, "Many of you are well enough off that ... the tax cuts may have helped you. We're saying that for America to get back on track, we're probably going to cut that short and not give it to you. We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good."

I would really like to know if anyone applauded when she spoke those words because I can’t, for the life of me, understand how anyone who worked hard to get to where there are could not be upset by this. What the heck is it guys—guilt? I don’t feel guilty that I made it to where I am. Maybe that’s because it wasn’t easy getting here. Perhaps if I had inherited my money I wouldn’t feel this way, but I’m not lying when I say that I busted my hump to get here; ten, twelve, fourteen, even all night-ers for years in the beginning just to get to a place where I could take a few days off.

Things are much better now, but if someone told me that I’d have to do it all over again, I’d probably just check out for good. Thomas Jefferson once said, "I am a great believer in luck. The harder I work, the more I have of it." I guess I was bright enough to have faith in those words, but according to the limousine liberals, I’m too dim to figure out how to spend my own money, so I must let them decide that for me. I’ll tell you what, Hillary; you give away your money first!

[archive_Mickey]

Stud we think alike http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Ulter as a business owner how can you justify voting for the Democrats who want to give your money away to help people who didnt help themselves like you have your whole life? You have busted your ass, why cant they?

I am going to post this article that someone sent to me also. It is very good and it echos the ideas of Stud's post......sorry its so long.



No, this speech has never been delivered at a college or a university. It was written to protest the fact that such an invitation has never been offered! It has only been delivered on my radio show, printed in my book "The Terrible Truth About Liberals" and produced on a limited edition CD. The irony is that this commencement speech has been more widely distributed, and has been the subject of more comment than any commencement speech that actually has been delivered at any college or university in the past 50 years. ©Copyright 2001, 2002, 2003 by Neal Boortz.
http://www.boortz.com

I am honored by the invitation to address you on this august occasion. It's about time. Be warned, however, that I am not here to impress you; you'll have enough smoke blown your way today. And you can bet your tassels I'm not here to impress the faculty and administration.

You may not like much of what I have to say, and that's fine. You will remember it though. Especially after about 10 years out there in the real world. This, it goes without saying, does not apply to those of you who will seek your careers and your fortunes as government employees.

This gowned gaggle behind me is your faculty. You've heard the old saying that those who can - do. Those who can't - teach. That sounds deliciously insensitive. But there is often raw truth in insensitivity, just as you often find feel-good falsehoods and lies in compassion. Say good-bye to your faculty because now you are getting ready to go out there and do. These folks behind me are going to stay right here and teach.

By the way, just because you are leaving this place with a diploma doesn't mean the learning is over. When an FAA flight examiner handed me my private pilot's license many years ago, he said, 'Here, this is your ticket to learn.' The same can be said for your diploma. Believe me, the learning has just begun.

Now, I realize that most of you consider yourselves Liberals. In fact, you are probably very proud of your liberal views. You care so much. You feel so much. You want to help so much. After all, you're a compassionate and caring person, aren't you now? Well, isn't that just so extraordinarily special. Now, at this age, is as good a time as any to be a Liberal; as good a time as any to know absolutely everything. You have plenty of time, starting tomorrow, for the truth to set in. Over the next few years, as you begin to feel the cold breath of reality down your neck, things are going to start changing pretty fast .. including your own assessment of just how much you really know.

So here are the first assignments for your initial class in reality: Pay attention to the news, read newspapers, and listen to the words and phrases that proud Liberals use to promote their causes. Then compare the words of the left to the words and phrases you hear from those evil, heartless, greedy conservatives. From the Left you will hear "I feel." From the Right you will hear "I think." From the Liberals you will hear references to groups --The Blacks, The Poor, The Rich, The Disadvantaged, The Less Fortunate. From the Right you will hear references to individuals. On the Left you hear talk of group rights; on the Right, individual rights.

That about sums it up, really: Liberals feel. Liberals care. They are pack animals whose identity is tied up in group dynamics. Conservatives and Libertarians think -- and, setting aside the theocracy crowd, their identity is centered on the individual.

Liberals feel that their favored groups, have enforceable rights to the property and services of productive individuals. Conservatives (and Libertarians, myself among them I might add) think that individuals have the right to protect their lives and their property from the plunder of the masses.

In college you developed a group mentality, but if you look closely at your diplomas you will see that they have your individual names on them. Not the name of your school mascot, or of your fraternity or sorority, butyourname. Your group identity is going away. Your recognition and appreciation of your individual identity starts now.

If, by the time you reach the age of 30, you do not consider yourself to be a libertarian or a conservative, rush right back here as quickly as you can and apply for a faculty position. These people will welcome you with open arms. They will welcome you, that is, so long as you haven't developed an individual identity. Once again you will have to be willing to sign on to the group mentality you embraced during the past four years.

Something is going to happen soon that is going to really open your eyes. You're going to actually get a full time job! You're also going to get a lifelong work partner. This partner isn't going to help you do your job. This partner is just going to sit back and wait for payday. This partner doesn't want to share in your effort, just your earnings.

Your new lifelong partner is actually an agent; an agent representing a strange and diverse group of people. An agent for every teenager with an illegitimate child. An agent for a research scientist who wanted to make some cash answering the age-old question of why monkeys grind their teeth. An agent for some poor aging hippie who considers herself to be a meaningful and talented artist ... but who just can't manage to sell any of her artwork on the open market.

Your new partner is an agent for every person with limited, if any, job skills; for every person who ignored all offered educational opportunities, dreaming of nothing more than a job at City Hall. An agent for tin-horn dictators in fancy military uniforms grasping for American foreign aid. An agent for multi-million-dollar companies who want someone else to pay for their overseas advertising. An agent for everybody who wants to use the unimaginable power of this agent's for their personal enrichment and benefit.

That agent is our wonderful, caring, compassionate, oppressive Imperial Federal Government. Believe me, you will be awed by the unimaginable power this agent has. Power that you do not have. A power that no individual has, will have or should have. This agent has the legal power to use force – deadly force – to accomplish its goals.

You have no choice here. Your new friend is just going to walk up to you, introduce itself rather gruffly, hand you a few forms to fill out, and move right on in. Say hello to your own personal one ton gorilla with a gun. It will sleep anywhere it wants to.

Now, let me tell you, this agent is not cheap. As you become successful it will seize about 40% of everything you earn. And no, I'm sorry, there just isn't any way you can fire this agent of plunder, and you can't decrease it's share of your income. That power rests with him, not you.

So, here I am saying negative things to you about government. Well, be clear on this: It is not wrong to distrust government. It is not wrong to fear government. In certain cases it is not even wrong to despise government for government is inherently evil. Oh yes, I know it's a necessary evil, but it is dangerous nonetheless ... somewhat like a drug. Just as a drug that in the proper dosage can save your life, an overdose of government can be fatal.

Now – let's address a few things that have been crammed into your minds at this university. There are some ideas you need to expunge as soon as possible. These ideas may work well in academic environment, but they fail miserably out there in the real world.

First – that favorite buzz word of the media, government and academia: Diversity!

You have been taught that the real value of any group of people - be it a social group, an employee group, a management group, whatever - is based on diversity. This is a favored liberal ideal because diversity is based not on an individual's abilities or character, but on a person's identity and status as a member of a group. Yes – it's that liberal group identity thing again.

Within the great diversity movement group identification - be it racial, gender based, or some other minority status - means more than the individual's integrity, character or other qualifications.

Brace yourself. You are about to move from this academic atmosphere where diversity rules, to a workplace and a culture where individual achievement and excellence actually count. No matter what your professors have taught you over the last four years, you are about to learn that diversity is absolutely no replacement for excellence, ability, and individual hard work.

From this day on every single time you hear the word "diversity" you can rest assured that there is someone close by who is determined to rob you of every vestige of individuality you possess.

We also need to address this thing you seem to have about "rights." We have witnessed an obscene explosion of so-called "rights" in the last few decades, usually emanating from college campuses.

You know the mantra: You have the right to a job. The right to a place to live. The right to a living wage. The right to health care. The right to an education. You probably even have your own pet right - the right to a Beemer, for instance, or the right to have someone else provide for that child you plan on downloading in a year or so.

Forget it. Forget those rights! I'll tell you what your rights are! You have a right to live free, and to whatever wealth you are able to produce with your labor. I'll also tell you have no right to any portion of the life or labor of another.

You may think, for instance, that you have a right to health care. After all, Hillary said so, didn't she? But you cannot receive health care unless some doctor or health practitioner surrenders some of his time - his life - to you. He may be willing to do this for compensation, but that's his choice. You have no "right" to his time or property. You have no right to his or any other person's life or to any portion thereof.

You may also think you have some "right" to a job; a job with a living wage, whatever that is. Do you mean to tell me that you have a right to force your services on another person, and then the right to demand that this person compensate you with their money? I can't wait for you to point that one out for me in our Constitution. I sure would like to be a fly on the wall when some urban outdoorsmen (that would be "homeless person" for those of you who don't want to give these less fortunate people a romantic and adventurous title) came to you and demanded his job and your money.

The people who have been telling you about all the rights you have are simply exercising one of theirs - the right to be imbeciles. Their being imbeciles didn't cost anyone else either property or time. It's their right, and they exercise it brilliantly.

By the way, did you catch my use of the phrase "less fortunate" a bit ago when I was talking about the urban outdoorsmen? That phrase is a favorite of the Left. Think about it, and you'll understand why.

To imply that one person is homeless, destitute, dirty, drunk, spaced out on drugs, unemployable, and generally miserable because he is "less fortunate" is to imply that a successful person - one with a job, a home and a future - is in that position because he or she was "fortunate." The dictionary says that fortunate means "having derived good from an unexpected place." There is nothing unexpected about deriving good from hard work. There is also nothing unexpected about deriving misery from choosing drugs, alcohol, and the street instead of education and personal responsibility.

If the Left can create the common perception that success and failure are simple matters of "fortune" or "luck," then it is easy to promote and justify their various income redistribution schemes. After all, we are just evening out the odds a little bit, aren't we?

This "success equals luck" idea the liberals like to push is seen everywhere. Democratic presidential candidate Richard Gephardt refers to high-achievers as "people who have won life's lottery." He wants you to believe they are making the big bucks because they are lucky; all they did was buy the right lottery ticket. What an insult this is to the man or woman who works that 60 hour week to provide for a family.

It's not luck, my friends. It's choice. One of the greatest lessons I ever learned was in a book by Og Mandino, entitled "The Greatest Secret in the World." The lesson? Very simple: "Use wisely your power of choice."

That bum sitting on a heating grate, smelling like a wharf rat? He's there by choice. He is there because of the sum total of the choices he has made in his life. This truism is absolutely the hardest thing for some people to accept, especially those who consider themselves to be victims of something or other - victims of discrimination, bad luck, the system, capitalism, whatever. After all, nobody really wants to accept the blame for his or her position in life. Not when it is so much easier to point and say, "Look! He did this to me!" than it is to look into a mirror and say, "You S.O.B.! You did this to me!"

The key to accepting responsibility for your life is to accept the fact that your choices, every one of them, are leading you inexorably to either success or failure, however you define those terms.

Some of the choices are obvious: Whether or not to stay in school. Whether or not to get pregnant. Whether or not to hit the bottle. Whether or not to keep this job you hate until you get another better-paying job. Whether or not to save some of your money, or saddle yourself with huge payments for that new car.

Some of the choices are seemingly insignificant: Whom to go to the movies with. Whose car to ride home in. Whether to watch the tube tonight, or read a book on investing. But, and you can be sure of this, each choice counts. Each choice is a building block - some large, some small. But each one is a part of the structure of your life. If you make the right choices, or if you make more right choices than wrong ones, something absolutely terrible may happen to you. Something unthinkable. You, my friend, could become one of the hated, the evil, the ugly, the feared, the filthy, the successful, the rich.

Quite a few people have followed that tragic path.

The rich basically serve two purposes in this country. First, they provide the investments, the investment capital, and the brains for the formation of new businesses. Businesses that hire people. Businesses that send millions of paychecks home each week to the un-rich.

Second, the rich are a wonderful object of ridicule, distrust, and hatred. Few things are more valuable to a politician than the envy most Americans feel for the evil rich.

Envy is a powerful emotion. Even more powerful than the emotional minefield that surrounded Bill Clinton when he reviewed his last batch of White House interns. Politicians use envy to get votes and power. And they keep that power by promising the envious that the envied will be punished: "The rich will pay their fair share of taxes if I have anything to do with it.'

The truth is that the top 10% of income earners in this country pays almost 50% of all income taxes collected. I shudder to think what these job producers would be paying if our tax system were any more "fair."

You have heard, no doubt, that in America the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Interestingly enough, our government's own numbers show that many of the poor actually get richer, and that quite a few of the rich actually get poorer. But for the rich who do actually get richer, and the poor who remain poor ... there's an explanation -- a reason. The rich, you see, keep doing the things that make them rich; while the poor keep doing the things that make them poor.

Speaking of the poor, during your adult life you are going to hear an endless string of politicians bemoaning the plight of the poor in America. So, you need to know that under our government's definition of "poor" you can have a $5 million net worth, a $300,000 home and a new $90,000 Mercedes, all completely paid for. You can also have a maid, cook, and valet, and $1 million in your checking account, and you can still be officially defined by our government as "living in poverty." Now there's something you haven't seen on the evening news.

How does the government pull this one off? Very simple, really. To determine whether or not some poor soul is "living in poverty," the government measures one thing -- just one thing. Income. It doesn't matter one bit how much you have, how much you own, how many cars you drive or how big they are, whether or not your pool is heated, whether you winter in Aspen and spend the summers in the Bahamas, or how much is in your savings account. It only matters how much income you claim in that particular year. This means that if you take a one-year leave of absence from your high-paying job and decide to live off the money in your savings and checking accounts while you write the next great American novel, the government says you are 'living in poverty."

This isn't exactly what you had in mind when you heard these gloomy statistics, is it?

Do you need more convincing? Try this. The government's own statistics show that people who are said to be "living in poverty" spend more than $1.50 for each dollar of income they claim. Something is a bit fishy here. just remember all this the next time Peter Jennings puffs up and tells you about some hideous new poverty statistics.

And please remember this: The average person in this country described as "poor" has a higher standard of living than the average European. Not the average "poor" European, the average European.

Why has the government concocted this phony poverty scam? Because the government needs an excuse to grow and to expand its social welfare programs, which translates into an expansion of its power. If the government can convince you, in all your compassion,that the number of "poor" is increasing, it will have all the excuse it needs to sway an electorate suffering from the advanced stages of Obsessive-Compulsive Compassion Disorder.

Well, it looks like I'm about to be given the hook. The faculty looks a little angry. I'll bet they've already changed their minds about that honorary degree I was going to get.That's OK, though. I still have my Ph.D. in Insensitivity from the Neal Boortz Institute for Insensitivity Training. I learned that, in short, sensitivity sucks. It's a trap. Think about it - the truth knows no sensitivity. Life can be insensitive. Wallow too much in sensitivity and you'll be unable to deal with life, or the truth. So, get over it.

Now, before the dean has me shackled and hauled off, I have a few random thoughts.


You need to register to vote, unless you are on welfare. If you are living off the efforts of others, please do us the favor of sitting down and shutting up until you are on your own again. To the welfare class I say that we're taking care of you we would appreciate if if you would just stay out of our way so we can get the job done.


When you do vote, your votes for the House and the Senate are more important than your vote for president. The House controls the purse strings, so concentrate your awareness there.


Liars cannot be trusted, even when the liar is the president of the United States. If someone can't deal honestly with you, send them packing.


Don't bow to the temptation to use the government as an instrument of plunder. If it is wrong for you to take money from someone else who earned it -- to take their money by force for your own needs -- then it is certainly just as wrong for you to demand that the government step forward and do this dirty work for you.


Don't look in other people's pockets. You have no business there. What they earn is theirs. What your earn is yours. Keep it that way. Nobody owes you anything, except to respect your privacy and your rights, and leave you the hell alone.


Speaking of earning, the revered 40-hour workweek is for losers. Forty hours should be considered the minimum, not the maximum. You don't see highly successful people clocking out of the office every afternoon at five. The losers are the ones caught up in that afternoon rush hour. The winners drive home in the dark.


Free speech is meant to protect unpopular speech. Popular speech, by definition, needs no protection.


Finally (and aren't you glad to hear that word), as Og Mandino wrote,

1. Proclaim your rarity. Each of you is a rare and unique human being.

2. Use wisely your power of choice.

3. Go the extra mile ... drive home in the dark.

Oh, and put off buying a television set as long as you can.

Now, if you have any idea at all what's good for you, you will get the hell out of here and never come back.

Class dismissed.

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[archive_Ulter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Stud we think alike Ulter as a business owner how can you justify voting for the Democrats who want to give your money away to help people who didn’t help themselves like you have your whole life? You have busted your ass, why cant they?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well it's like this. I remember how things got this way...
The reason "those people" don't work to help themselves is because for 3 generations they've been told to stay out of the work place. "Us people" would not give them jobs where we'd have to work with them. We didn't want them to live where we did. We didn't want them to go to school where our kids went to school. We wanted them to go away. So we built them housing and paid them money to stay out of our faces about getting a job or living next to us. So now here we are with places like South Central LA with infant mortality rates lower than Peru. With millions of people whose parents and grandparents were not wanted in our society. And in most of the country still aren't. Do you think these people will ever get out. No. They didn't make their bed, we did. But now they have to sleep in it. And we don't want to provide jobs programs or better educational systems because that means they are taking our money. So let's just say phuck em. This is their problem and they should do something about it like we do for ourselves.

On another note: One of the people the Republicans cut funding for is very close to me, Michael. I don't like that my money pays for bullets and bombs in a war that's sole purpose was to aquire oil while they cut funding for programs that I feel should not have been taken away from him. True he doesn't earn his own way and needs assistance but he's only 8. I benefited from afterschool programs and interscholastic sports in grade school tremendously. My son should too.


As far as voting Democratic, I don't vote the party, I vote for the man. I truly hope that either the house or senate remains republican so that this country will have the give and take that it needs to run the way it should.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[archive_Mickey]

Well, again, everything I say is not really how I feel. I just like to start debates and get people to express how they really feel.

I, like you, vote for the man and not the party. I support who I feel is best choice at the time and one time that was Clinton and not Bob Dole.

I just know where you have come from. I know what Chicago can be like. I grew up in NJ and it isnt rosey either. I dont know anyone from South Central LA but I do know a lot of people from Atlantic City and other poor cities in NJ. If you want to get out you will, it really is as simple as that. You dont need a job program to get a job either. I did landscaping, construction, drilling and everything else I could to make money when I was younger. Why cant they? Transportation? No, we pay for a public bus system. How about the lack of a desire to work hard and set goals for yourself. Its a hell of a lot easier to sell drugs then it is to go ask someone for a job (been there too). The latter takes balls and in the projects it takes lots of balls because you would have to put up with a lot of ridicule for being a "sellout". These people that we talk about need to stop feeling sorry for themselves.

My best friend is black and I have a lot of black friends. This group tends to fall into the category of people of which you speak that live in the projects and in South Central. My best friends dad was shot and killed when he was a small boy. His mother died shortly after his birth. He was raised by his grandparents in a small house in a poor neighborhood with no money. Did he feel sorry for himself and do nothing? NO. He has worked 40+ hours a week since he was 16. He has paid his way through college twice. He has paid for everything he has and is better off than I am right now. He could have given up and become like his Uncle, who was stabbed 50 times but lived, and who can never hold a job and who is always on something. His cousins have turned out the exact opposite. Always getting in trouble and not really doing anything right now but hanging out in the projects and feeling sorry for themselves. I see it all the time!!

You made it. He made it. Everyone can make it. Like Charles Barkley says "black people (and ALL poor and less fortunate people) need to stop feeling sorry for themselves". Bill Cosby practically said the same thing. There is no need for all of this.

You may be pissed about after school programs and sports because I will say that I support you on that one. However, dont tell me that these people cant get out of their situation, they can and lots of people prove this every day. What about the people who come to this country with nothing and become wealthy? I know that you arent just a fluke!

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[archive_Ulter]

I don't know where you think there are 14 million jobs for these people but it's not in this country. The people that feel sorry for themselves as Charles says have been made to feel that way because everyone in their family has been stuck where they are as long as anyone can remember. Some people do get out. But there just isn't enough room for everyone and when you pay 3 generations of people to stay home it's a little hard to suddenly reverse that and get them motivated to go work. And cutting their money with no alternative puts them at your throat with a knife. You can't send a domesticated animal back to the wild to fend for itself because it doesn't know how. You can't just say go take care of yourself when they don't know how.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[This message was edited by Ulter on 07-19-04 at 09:29 PM.]

[archive_Mickey]

I will say that you are right, there are not nearly enough jobs for everyone. There will always be unemployed and chances are that it will be those people and not the educated. Its going to get worse too before it gets better because cheap labor jobs are going out of the country.

You are also right that these people can not just wake up and say that they are going to be motivated and change their lives. It is a gradual process though that needs to start sometime. Camden NJ is one of the worst cities in the country. We played them in basketball when I was in HS and I had to go there for soup kitchens for our community service projects. These kids literally kill themselves in school! They dont even try to learn. The cops in the schools are overwhelmed. Now there are kids in those schools that do well and go to college and learn. Why dont the other kids learn? Are they not in the same classroom? Why do they not even go to school? They choose not to go.

Im just not sure that putting more money into the situation is going to make it better. I mean what else can you do? How do you force a kid to learn? How do you force a kid to wear a condom or not have sex so he isnt having a kid at 14? How do you stop those things? Is more money really the answer? I had a whole college class about NJ schools and some of the worst school districts have the highest dollar amounts per student. I mean the public schools in NJ are putting like $8-10,000 into EACH STUDENT! NJ is one of the most liberal states and that doesnt seem to be working! More money is just not the answer, Im sorry. They have the books, the new schools, the equipment, the smaller classes and more teachers. What else is missing? Uhh the student doing his or her part and learning and wanting to do something!

I did make a false statement earlier, not everyone can make it. A lot more could though if they would just try. Stop thinking that 50 Cent is cool because he got shot 9 times and start thinking that its cool to be like Ulter who moved and made something of himself.

An honest question though, do you think this process will come to a quicker resolution by putting more money into these people and giving them more?

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[archive_Ulter]

That's just it. We didn't make this mess overnight and we won't fix it overnight. I will take at least two generations to do it. But just because it will take that long doesn't mean we should quit trying. New books, smaller classrooms, etc are a great start but you have to keep going year after year, and decade after decade. School reform has worked big time in Chicago. Mainly because the city grabbed the teachers union by the balls and made teachers more accountable. Chicago's reform has made them a model. If the 3rd largest city in America can do it then so can anyone else. But it takes time and money. That $100 billion we're going to go way over in Iraq would have been enough. I'd rather wake up in 20 years and see no ghettos than wake up and see an Iraqi stock exchange.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[archive_Mickey]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'd rather wake up in 20 years and see no ghettos than wake up and see an Iraqi stock exchange.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im with you on that brother.

I dont mind spending money for schools and for the kids. I just have problem continuing to support their parents who had their chance and havent done anything. They arent accountable for their own actions.

I agree our price in Iraq is just crazy. I dont think that it had to be done. There are other countries like North Korea that I think are a lot bigger threat to world security but yet they would be hard to beat and they dont have anything that we could use so we put them on the back burner.

I think that no matter who gets elected, Kerry or Bush, they will hopefully lessen our presence in Iraq and bring our people home. I think that we should focus on ourselves and work on our own security and prevent attacks and problems in our country and just monitor for major problems elsewhere. We need to back off of the police role for a while.

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[~ JP ~]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ulter:
That's just it. We didn't make this mess overnight and we won't fix it overnight. I will take at least two generations to do it. ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can fix it in two generations? Ulter for President! http://www.anabolicfitness.net/smileys/banana.gif

On a more serious note, I agree that it will take money and time to fix the problem here. But we need to be very careful how the money is spent. We need to use it to develop the future, not to make sure we have enough to pay them off when the need arises. Education is key. But the real problem is a lack of morality. Its not taught in school anymore, and its not being taught at home anymore either. Thus with no moral base, it becomes easer to turn to crime to fix your situation.

While I too would rather wake up to see no ghettos than an Iraqi stock exchange, I question whether the Government could have efficiently used that money to really fix the situation here. Certainly no idea currently coming out of either the Dems or GOP will do it.

[~ JP ~]

Also as an aside, but a related one, did anyone notice the recently released study by the British Commission for Racial Equality? It concerns racial discrimination and segragation in the UK and contains data leading to the conclusion that most whites there dont even have one person on another race whom they consider a close friend. This is shocking because they "are not like Americans who do know each other but have made an active choice to live in a segregated society." Interesting that people in the rest of the world look at our state of affairs here as a "choice."

[archive_Mickey]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But the real problem is a lack of morality. Its not taught in school anymore, and its not being taught at home anymore either. Thus with no moral base, it becomes easer to turn to crime to fix your situation.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are so right!!!!

This is the problem but it will not be fixed. Our country is obsessed that teaching morality and doing the right thing is an infringement on someones rights.

Is there a way for morality to be taught?

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[macdaddy]

Yes there is a way for morality to be taught....at home. I try to teach my kids to be moral honorable people every day, and today no one else will do it for you. When we were kids if you messed up in the neighborhood the neighbors would not hesitate to lecture you or call your parents or grab you by the ear themselves. This doesn't happen anymore. It's up to me to teach my kids right and wrong, what is lawful and what is profitable, no oe else is going to do it, and I damn sure don't trust the school to do it.

By the way, we live in Ohio, in a suburb of Columbus, we have the best public schools in the state of Ohio. I have chosen to live in a smaller house in this suburb rather than a huge one in Columbus schools, or even a big one in Worthington or Dublin for one reason, the schools. The schools do play an importanat part but the most important part is my role as the parent, as the dad. The kids will look at me and emulate what I do (to an extent), which is one reason that right now I can't do AAS more than the HRT the doc perscribes, my 15 yr old athelete son would not understand.

Anyway, the point is that the best way for those who are down to get up is to have an example to follow, and many in the ghetto do not have that example.

I've done volunteer work in South Linden, these kids crave a positive adult model, some have it some don't. The program I volunteered at was an after school deal, these guys parents were working and they either came to this after school program or they were on their own after school for hours. THe parents did not have the money to have their children properly supervised and have a job. The cool thing about this program was it was not government funded, not one dime, people donated time, money and equipment. I happen to be a systems engineer, so I helped them maintain a computer lab so these kids could learn something about computers after school. After all in school they tend to use Macintosh machines, not many people make a living in business using a damn mac.

[archive_Ulter]

If you look at who the slave traders were and what happened in South Africa that study is not too hard believe. While this county may not be what it could be in terms of excepting other races/religions it's lightyears ahead of just about every other countries level of tolerance and acceptance.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[macdaddy]

Tolerance and acceptance are things that are controlled by the individual, not the government. I believe that I can control change in this country more by my actions (volunteer work, being an involved parent) than my vote. Although I will vote, I'll be damned if I know for who, but I will vote.

[archive_Ulter]

The government is never going to force tolerance and acceptance. It tried, it failed. But as you saw first hand if the school children are shown that they can get into college and get a job they will deal with acceptance issues themselves.
In Chicago between 1998 and 2003, the number of Latino and African American students taking Advanced Placement exams increased by 227 percent and 176 percent respectively, according to the College Board.
Those numbers could be doubled again if the funding was there to pay teachers who can teach based on performance. And the carrot? All they did was give the students access to better courses. I agree Mickey that the parents for the most part are lost forever. I know my friends are, but if you give their children a chance to change themselves it can be totally reversed in two generations.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[Stud Diesel]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ulter:
Well it's like this. I remember how things got this way...
The reason "those people" don't work to help themselves is because for 3 generations they've been told to stay out of the work place. "Us people" would not give them jobs where we'd have to work with them. We didn't want them to live where we did. We didn't want them to go to school where our kids went to school. We wanted them to go away. So we built them housing and paid them money to stay out of our faces about getting a job or living next to us. So now here we are with places like South Central LA with infant mortality rates lower than Peru. With millions of people whose parents and grandparents were not wanted in our society. And in most of the country still aren't. Do you think these people will ever get out. No. They didn't make their bed, we did. But now they have to sleep in it. And we don't want to provide jobs programs or better educational systems because that means they are taking our money. So let's just say phuck em. This is their problem and they should do something about it like we do for ourselves.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I like responses like this because it helps keep me centered. I asked my business partner a similar question, and he said something to the effect of, “Jim, some people in this world are crippled and need help from those who are not.” I like that. I’m not a greedy person, and I want to help those in need—that is, if my help is truly wanted and is not just providing a free ride. I guess my biggest problem lies with those who want to tell me who they think I should help. And if memory serve me; weren’t charitable donations at an all time high during the Reagan years? Here; I did a quick search and found something.<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally printed in Philanthropy Magazine:
……. Consider how the tax cuts of the 1980s affected charitable donations. In 1981, President Reagan’s first economic plan dramatically reduced marginal tax rates. The plan included an across-the-board reduction of 25 percent in marginal tax rates for individuals, as well as a reduction in the highest individual rate from 70 percent to 50 percent. Many economic analysts and nonprofit organizations predicted charitable contributions would fall as a result.

These fears were never realized. By 1986, total charitable giving was 16 percent higher (after inflation) than it had been in 1980. The economic growth that resulted from reducing marginal tax rates actually boosted the amount donated to charitable organizations. Between 1980 and 1986, the amounts contributed by donors in every category (individuals, corporations, foundations and bequests) increased, as did the levels of contributions received by nonprofits in every category (from the arts to social welfare organizations).

Virtually the same thing occurred in 1986. That year’s tax bill eliminated numerous deductions in the tax code and lowered the top individual marginal rate from 50 percent to 28 percent. Once again, many analysts erroneously predicted a dramatic reduction in charitable giving. Yet charitable contributions for 1987 totaled $90.3 billion, a 7.6 percent increase over 1986. In fact, total charitable donations increased (in inflation-adjusted terms) every year between 1983 and 1989.

The bottom line is clear: Increased personal income leads to increased contributions, as every fundraiser knows. Instead of fixating on the deduction, charities and other nonprofit groups should be supporting tax-reform policies that boost economic growth, such as the flat tax. Harvard economist Dale Jorgenson estimates that general economic activity would increase by about 10 percent under a flat tax, and other economists believe personal income will increase by as much as 15 percent.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Regarding the school system, I think we are all overlooking the parents’ role. This is huge; not only in a child’s educational development, but in how well a particular school performs. (How well a school performs? That’s right!) I was discussing this with my father just a few nights ago. Ask yourself this; have you ever read or heard of a poorly performing school in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood? I’ll bet dollars to doughnuts that you have not. And it doesn’t have anything to do with how much money is being poured into that school, how well it is equipped, or how qualified are the teachers. Jews stress education; always have and always will. Therefore little Josh performs well in school because his parents stress reading and writing at home, and in turn the school Josh attends looks like Yale. Because there’s only so much a teacher or school system can do. If little Johnny comes home from school, plops himself down in front of the TV and his mother or father doesn’t stop him, then I don’t care how well funded his school is, or how great his teachers are; little Johnny is not going to perform as well as little Josh, and little Johnny’s school will look like a very bad school.

{edit}

giving credit: correction; macdaddy mentioned the parents role in several posts. (I got a little ahead of the responses)

[This message was edited by Stud Diesel on 07-20-04 at 10:39 AM.]

[archive_Ulter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Ask yourself this; have you ever read or heard of a poorly performing school in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A Jewish neighborhood? You're going to compare the Jewish community to the ghetto? Well ok, let's start with the fact that the Jewish have based their society around education for over two thousand years. You might as well compare the inner city to the Japanese.


"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[Stud Diesel]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ulter:
A Jewish neighborhood? You're going to compare the Jewish community to the ghetto? Well ok, let's start with the fact that the Jewish have based their society around education for over two thousand years. You might as well compare the inner city to the Japanese.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, I think that’s basically the point I made in my post. Here it is:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stud Diesel:
&lt;snip&gt; Jews stress education; always have and always will. &lt;snip&gt; <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So I used what WE BOTH stated to make a point that no matter how much money, how many top-notch teachers, computers, and etcetera a particular school system provides, if there is not a high importance being placed upon academics at home, then that school system or child will not perform as well.

And, again, I used the Jews as an example for the exact reasons you stated; they have always placed a great importance on education and therefore wherever they are, those schools will perform well—no matter what the level of funding, classroom size…etc.

[archive_Ulter]

Ok. I didn't read deeply enough.

I also think people tend to sell the parents short. If you look at what Chicago did you'll see that the students have done so much better because the system has put the programs into place and then made them available to the inner city. If the parents see that the schools are really doing something in their best interest (other than installing metal detectors) and they can see that it works for other children they will be more inclined to take an active role in pushing their kids into these programs. I think it's the feeling of hopelessness and abandonment that has dominated these neighborhoods that has led to a feeling of exclusion from society. A feeling that's not really misplaced, they ARE exclude. As Chicago proved, simple access is the only carrot that's needed in the long run to get parents involved.

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." -Albert Einstein

[Maverik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by METHYL MIKE:
Yeah now that i think about everything and ive discussed the film with a couple friends who are slightly more politically savvy than i ive found that the film actually sucks. WHy? Because its presented as factual, but its really not, its purely an opnionated piece in which moore is trying to make the president look bad. If it had been purely facts, like i thought it was, i would liek it, but its not, and i think its despicable that someone would make a movie like this. The sad thing is hes profiting from it, and even sadder is a lot of young people will see the movie, and not know it isnt a factual documentary, and their minds will be swayed. In retrospect, its a piece of garbage, and im regretting putting money into that idiots pockets. One thing, for the people who have seen it, did you see the scene where there is a tourist getting beaten? I came to find out moore held that piece of footage so he could put it into his movie. That is BULLSHIT you cant hold onto things like that for personal gain! Fuck moore and fuck the movie.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly Mike! I haven't seen the movie yet, but I saw Bowling for Columbine and he constantly contradicts himself. I don't even think I want to see "Farfromtruth 9/11", because of what I saw in Bowling for Columbine. Micheal Moore is an idiot.

[Stud Diesel]

I did watch Bowling a few weeks ago since it was on cable. Pretty weak if you ask me, but then I had read The Truth About Bowling (http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html) before seeing it.

[archive_METHYL MIKE]

Something i think is fairly interesting is Ulters' views. Having spent a good deal of time talking to him in the past, getting to know him etc. you guys really have no idea where he's been and what he's seen and done. I regard his views fairly seriously, and i find it interesting that he happens to have some liberalistic views. SO looking into them, they make a little bit of sense actually, basically if im following we want to take money from the rich and established and use it to help out those who have been screwed more or less right? That makes a lot of sense because ive known a lot of people from "Ghettos" as well as rich people, and lemme tell you, if youre wealthy, from a wealthy family, chances are you can easily stay there. But if you come from nothing, have nothing, go to horrible schools and are around drugs and violence your entire life, your chances of succeeding in life are less than desirable. However, do the programs work? That would be my question, i mean most republicans i know HATE liberals because they say none of the programs work and are a waste of money. NO, the war in iraq is a waste of fucking money, how much could be done in this country with everything we're spending there? I detest poverty now, now that ive seen it firsthand. Its ridiculous. It shouldnt exist. We are all equal, all men are equal, i think its cute that we as a species are divided among so many lines and nobody seems to realize it. BUt in my eyes every single human being is equal to the next, if given the same chances and opportunities, we are all cabable of great things. I hope i see the day where every person gets a fair shake at things.

this movie has to be seen

and I do not care who you are

if you don't think after seeing this one

YOU ARE A MORON