View Full Version : interesting discussion on WSB
silver_shadow
08-11-2008, 02:17 PM
drsquat.com :: View topic - Speed reps (http://drsquat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4733&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)
want to know what you guys think about it.... the thread starter is a friend of mine (i'm not on that forum BTW) who insists that on a scale of good better best, WSB is better.
G-REX
08-11-2008, 11:25 PM
I use the Westside method, and have used progressive overload as well as a trial with Sheiko system. If applied properly, and done correctly the Westside system has done wonders for my powerlifting as well as my strength in general. I've gotten alot more out of it than any other system. I've also trained several powerlifters that have had alot of success on the local and national level using the Westside methods. Now, that being said, I do believe each and every lifter needs to take the time and figure out what works for them and how best to apply it, as well as how to organize their training so that it works for them. I'm not one of these absolutists that thinks this is the only way to train, I honestly believe that you can have success with just about any type of training that is well thought out and addresses the individual lifters needs, be it Progressive Overload, Sheiko, Westside, Progressive Evolution, Metal Militia, etc.....
Mr. Icarus, from what I read in the thread simply didn't do his homework on the system and didn't see what all is involved in the Westside training regime. He seemed to think it was nothing but pulling 50% of your one rep max for a couple of reps then go home. It doesn't work that way, if he had read up on it he would have found that different percentages are used based on whether you pull conventional or Sumo. He'd probably also found that the percantages listedare a guideline, they're not etched in stone. He also would have learned that all the heavy work is done on a seperate day than the speed work. He'd also have learned that the lifters do a variety of specialty lifts in order to bring up their individual weakpoints, thus the lift as a whole gets better. Again, I just hink he didn't do his homework.
Evidence
08-13-2008, 03:32 AM
G-Rex i do agree that the homework was not done and full understanding of wsb template was not expressed. You mentioned off the top of your head like 5 different options of programs to try. That's it my friend. Training is not law. In theory, there is no "way" that is absolute. Only "ways" that can work based on the knowledge we have knowing that it has been a means of progress in the past. All we have really are options. Options that have data supporting they work or they don't work. But who is to decide that they work? G-Rex said it, ultimately you decide what works.
I mean you can take any issue that has been discussed on this very board at one time and find this out. Eric Talmant who needs no introduction to most here did a recorded study on using speed work in powerlifting. Recorded all the results from the tendo units and all the lifts where charted the whole way through the program. Concluded that speed work has absolutely no place in a sport such as powerlifting that is based on limit strength. Yet, many of you here have expressed that speed work has actually worked tremendously on improving your lifts. So who is wrong here? How about no one. How can you tell Eric Talmant, no it does work, or tell you on this board no it doesn't work. This training game is a beautiful thing, and the day you meet a person who tells you he has all the answers and has it all figured out; you just met someone who cannot help you.
bigdamray
08-13-2008, 02:29 PM
Awesome posts fella's!!
silver_shadow
08-18-2008, 09:20 AM
lol i've been trying to explain to icarus that:
1) 50% is just a guideline
2) it's done with bands and chains
3) it's not the only thing that is done.
but he still doesn't seem to get that - at least it appears that way in his posts.
furthermore, in my conversation with him, he didn't seem to understand (based on the material on the net) how things are periodized. my guess is that he's wedded to the idea of separate blocks of strength and hypertrophy and speed being tackled in the course of training with nothing special done for it.
however what i'm more interested in is dr squats comments on the 2nd and 3rd page of the thread:
drsquat.com :: View topic - Speed reps (http://drsquat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4733&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15)
Since Ive been training at Westside since the summer, I'll throw in my 02.
The % is just a guideline, in fact, everyone at Westside (who even does DE work for lower body) goes all by feel. and I never see anyone there going below the 60%ish range.
Every time I heard a strength coach bash Westside it's because they're misinformed about how they actually train or they spew complete bullshit. That is why Louie will gladly have ANYONE come down and see what goes on there. I reccommend anyone who gets the opportunity to give him a call and come down and see what really goes on there.
I'll agree w/ your friend that the conjugate method is superior to all training. I say the conjugate method because lots of people say they train Westside, but you only train Westside when you lift there. You would understand if you trained there, Louie leaves A LOT out in his articles and everything else.
I mean you can take any issue that has been discussed on this very board at one time and find this out. Eric Talmant who needs no introduction to most here did a recorded study on using speed work in powerlifting. Recorded all the results from the tendo units and all the lifts where charted the whole way through the program. Concluded that speed work has absolutely no place in a sport such as powerlifting that is based on limit strength. Yet, many of you here have expressed that speed work has actually worked tremendously on improving your lifts. So who is wrong here? How about no one. How can you tell Eric Talmant, no it does work, or tell you on this board no it doesn't work. This training game is a beautiful thing, and the day you meet a person who tells you he has all the answers and has it all figured out; you just met someone who cannot help you.
Eric Talmant is wrong. Who exactly did he do the studies on and how? Did he do it right? That is just ridiculous.
Did you know that there has been studies, and I mean that in plural form -- studies that bands don't work!? I bet I could make a study that says bands work and so does speed work.
Eric needs to come down and make a trip to Columbus, Ohio.
I will say this also. There are people who are super explosive naturally who probably wont benefit as much from speed work. There are others who are strong as hell but lack the speed to push heavier weights and speed work will probably help them out more. A classic example is George halbert when he first came to Westside. He pushed his bench up to 500 but he told me when he pushed up his speed work it went to 600 raw.
Everyone has probably seen the types. The explsoive guys will smoke a heavy weight but get buried by 20 lbs more. The strength dominant guys are the ones who make heavy weights look like a grinder but keep banging them out.
I will agree not everyone does speed work, there are guys at Westside who don't do DE squat days, but not many. I dont think speed work HAS to be done to get bigger #s either. Lots of strong guys dont do it. To say it has no place in powerlifting....stupid.
G-REX
08-19-2008, 11:29 AM
I'm an explosive lifter, and I still do speed work. Not as much as a newb might need to, but I still do it. If nothing else, it's just more of a maintenance thing now. It works for me and I'll keep doing it when I'm preparing for a meet. In the off-season, I switch my speed work to more of a rep routine. Helps put on more size and build the necessary stamina I'll need once the meet prep starts back up.
I agree with Joe that speed work doesn't benefit everyone, I've got a guy in my gym that never does speed work and has squatted 928 in comp. I think he's doing okay without it! Just depends on the individual, more than anything that's what the conjugate method is about. Finding out what works for you, the individual. If it works for you, keep it. If it doesn't? Put it on a shelf and try again later, nothing saying that what doesn't work for you now, can't work later. The opposite of that is also true. Just because something is working for you now, doesn't mean it always will. Your body adapts and the law of diminishing returns will eventually catch up to you.
I'm an explosive lifter, and I still do speed work. Not as much as a newb might need to, but I still do it. If nothing else, it's just more of a maintenance thing now. It works for me and I'll keep doing it when I'm preparing for a meet. In the off-season, I switch my speed work to more of a rep routine. Helps put on more size and build the necessary stamina I'll need once the meet prep starts back up.
I agree with Joe that speed work doesn't benefit everyone, I've got a guy in my gym that never does speed work and has squatted 928 in comp. I think he's doing okay without it! Just depends on the individual, more than anything that's what the conjugate method is about. Finding out what works for you, the individual. If it works for you, keep it. If it doesn't? Put it on a shelf and try again later, nothing saying that what doesn't work for you now, can't work later. The opposite of that is also true. Just because something is working for you now, doesn't mean it always will. Your body adapts and the law of diminishing returns will eventually catch up to you.
Yep youre right.
Louie even told me specifically to work on other things on DE bench day. I still did it sometimes, but like you said, not always. Out of the whole summer I probably did DE squat days about 4-5 times, because I needed to work on other things. You're right very individual. I think people take the guideline Louie puts out there and thinks it's set in stone. That's why you don't train Westside unless you train there because it's different then what everyone thinks.
Also, slightly off topic, but guys like Eric Talmat and the other EliteFTS guys aren't Westside. A lot of people mix Westside and the Elite guys up. None of the Elite guys train there and the ones who did are powerbuilders now and disagree w/ some of Westside's methods. I think JackAss is the only one who still follows it. You just see a lot of questions with EliteFTs and Westside in the QNA and on the boards. It just gets annoying when someone puts both of them in the same sentence, because they're not the same at all
IliekFude
08-19-2008, 05:21 PM
Yep youre right.
I think people take the guideline Louie puts out there and thinks it's set in stone. That's why you don't train Westside unless you train there because it's different then what everyone thinks.
Yup, ive come to believe that the most fundamental part of the westside philosophy is to first identify yr own weaknesses and then to attack them properly. Then realizing this is a perpetual process. If yr doing a cookie cutter then yr not doing westside.
Evidence
08-19-2008, 05:31 PM
Eric Talmant is wrong. Who exactly did he do the studies on and how? Did he do it right? That is just ridiculous.
Did you know that there has been studies, and I mean that in plural form -- studies that bands don't work!? I bet I could make a study that says bands work and so does speed work.
Eric needs to come down and make a trip to Columbus, Ohio.
I will say this also. There are people who are super explosive naturally who probably wont benefit as much from speed work. There are others who are strong as hell but lack the speed to push heavier weights and speed work will probably help them out more. A classic example is George halbert when he first came to Westside. He pushed his bench up to 500 but he told me when he pushed up his speed work it went to 600 raw.
Everyone has probably seen the types. The explsoive guys will smoke a heavy weight but get buried by 20 lbs more. The strength dominant guys are the ones who make heavy weights look like a grinder but keep banging them out.
I will agree not everyone does speed work, there are guys at Westside who don't do DE squat days, but not many. I dont think speed work HAS to be done to get bigger #s either. Lots of strong guys dont do it. To say it has no place in powerlifting....stupid.
Everything he did was posted on EliteFTS. Even attached the email to one of his coaches and said if you had any other questions to contact him. veggaman@verizon.net. He's the best out there at 165 so I would think he knows what he is doing.
Yup, ive come to believe that the most fundamental part of the westside philosophy is to first identify yr own weaknesses and then to attack them properly. Then realizing this is a perpetual process. If yr doing a cookie cutter then yr not doing westside.
Exactly, train your weaknesses. thats exactly what is about.
Everything he did was posted on EliteFTS. Even attached the email to one of his coaches and said if you had any other questions to contact him. veggaman@verizon.net. He's the best out there at 165 so I would think he knows what he is doing.
Next thing youre going to tell me is that Chris Clark is one of the best SHW :D
BTW he's not even close to being the best out there at 165. Im not taking anything away from what he's accomplished in the sport, but those are the facts.
First off, Louie made the conjugate method popular in America and has been doing it since Eric was in diapers. That's not to say Louie knows everything(he'll tell you that himself) but if something doesnt work Louie would be the first one to nix it.
Now what are you going to believe evidence? A study or Westside's real world results? C'mon now, youre smarter than that.
PS I dont care to contact Eric because I know saying that speed work doesnt belong in powerlifting or any sport is WRONG. I have seen and heard from some of the best in the game that speed work has taken their lifts to new heights... I also understand that some people dont need it or use it to be super strong....
one last thing -- even if he were the strongest 165er that doesnt mean anything. The strongest arent always the smartest when it comes to training. Thats not saying weak guys like myself are smart, just making the point that strong doesnt mean smart. I mean Scott Yard is a very impressive lifter and he says box squatting and free squatting are two differemtn movements and you lose your stretch reflex if you dont box squat.!
Evidence
08-19-2008, 06:26 PM
Well you asked me were I got my info and I told you. All I was trying to say was I felt G-Rex made a great point earlier on this thread and I was just writing in response to that. It would be ignorant for you to tell Eric Talmant what works and what doesn't, just as it would be for him to tell you what works and what doesn't while you're at westside and he's not. Thats all I was trying to say. Whether Eric is one of the best or not isn't the point to any of this. It's basically as I said earlier, what works for you is ultimately just that. What works for you. And having the opportunity to learn from others and keep what is making us better a part of the arsenal. I agree totally with what Fude said, if you're following a cookie cutter routine then you're not doing the right applications of wsb (as Louie intended). That's why some of the greatest books out there like Supertraining and Science and Practice don't have routines in them to try. I mean look at Joe Defranco for example. He has made very popular his WSB4SB routines by taking WSB templates and modifying them as he felt appropriate for his athletes. How is he able to make money off of the WSB name that he isn't a part of? I can't answer that, but if he has an athlete that is progressing under such a routine, then that is what this game is all about. It's about the athletes and the people who are training trying to get better. And if that is happening, then you're getting that much closer to success.
Well you asked me were I got my info and I told you. All I was trying to say was I felt G-Rex made a great point earlier on this thread and I was just writing in response to that. It would be ignorant for you to tell Eric Talmant what works and what doesn't, just as it would be for him to tell you what works and what doesn't while you're at westside and he's not. Thats all I was trying to say. Whether Eric is one of the best or not isn't the point to any of this. It's basically as I said earlier, what works for you is ultimately just that. What works for you. And having the opportunity to learn from others and keep what is making us better a part of the arsenal. I agree totally with what Fude said, if you're following a cookie cutter routine then you're not doing the right applications of wsb (as Louie intended). That's why some of the greatest books out there like Supertraining and Science and Practice don't have routines in them to try. I mean look at Joe Defranco for example. He has made very popular his WSB4SB routines by taking WSB templates and modifying them as he felt appropriate for his athletes. How is he able to make money off of the WSB name that he isn't a part of? I can't answer that, but if he has an athlete that is progressing under such a routine, then that is what this game is all about. It's about the athletes and the people who are training trying to get better. And if that is happening, then you're getting that much closer to success.
Ive mentioned that some of the best guys here don't do speed work, but for Talmat to say that it has no place in powerlifting is definitely wrong because for many people it really does have a place w/ or w/o his study and his accomplishments in the game. That's all Im saying, otherwise I agree w/ you.
I applaud DeFranco for taking the conjugate system and making it work also. He's done great and gets results. Even though the title of his program is called "westside for skinny bastards" it's still not Westside though. So he's making money off of calling his version of the conjugate method WS4SB.. I dont think Louie has a problem with it, and it works.
I've seen what Louie does w/ athletes and Ive had conversations with how the athletes are trained. It's similar to how defranco does it but there are definitely differences there also, .. but that leads me to my next point that i wanted to say.
every lifter or someone who uses the conjugate method gets mixed with training Westside and then people confuse what others do with what Westside actually does. You only train Big Iron if you train with Big Iron you only train westside if you train at westside, well you get the point. I just think for inquiring minds people should know what the difference between people who a spinoff of one's methods and people who use their actual methods. That way there isn't any misinformation about Louie or Westside or the Elite guys or anyone else for that matter.
sometimes i wanna go insane when i see someone posting about how an elitefts guy trains or did this and draws conclusions about Westside methods. i bet someone is going to have a question about Westside methods and speed work and someone is gonig to draw up Eric's study saying they shoulndt do it because Eric trains Westside style and says it doesnt work.
Evidence
08-19-2008, 07:57 PM
Eric trains Sheiko from the last thing I read and doesn't really comment on WSB training. I understand your point, you don't train westside unless you train at westside. But what about guys like Mark Bell who has his own gym that has trained at westside and consults with Louie and lists him as a mentor. Is it fair to say that Mark doesn't train westside when he trains in California, eventhough he'd be doing the same workouts as he were with louie in Columbus? (not always the same workouts, but what if the only thing that was different was instead of doing the workouts at westside he did them with team supertraining?)
IliekFude
08-19-2008, 08:07 PM
He doesnt lift the same tho.
He consults but brings his own brand of things. For instance they use the shit outta the carpet press and do a lot more band work in the bench - including accessory movements than id bet louie does.
He basically was indoctrinated into conjugate training by louie - now he's morphing it along with his own beliefs and style like most who've come before.
WSB gets thrown around in place of conjugate sometimes maybe but its just people giving credit to Lou mostly since he championed it around here for decades before it blew up, at least thats the way it seems - i have no real idea - ive never met Lou.
IliekFude
08-19-2008, 08:10 PM
few edits, cant help myself
Is it fair to say that Mark doesn't train westside when he trains in California, eventhough he'd be doing the same workouts as he were with louie in Columbus?
I would say no -- still not Westside. I would list Louie as one of my mentors too but when I train back at home I wouldnt say Im training Westside even though Lou is a phone call away and I still would do what he told me/tells me to do. At home he won't see my form or be able to see any weak links.
If you saw Mark's circa max phase he posted his box squat form wouldnt have been performed like that if he were here at Westside. It was strong as shit but im preyty sure Lou would tear his form apart. I saw a few guys do the same weight and band tension at WS and the gym has a very good idea what they're going to hit in the meet. it should be interesting to see what Mark hits in the meet and what they all hit in the meet.
What you read in his articles and everything else isn't the same as training here. I used to think there isn't much difference if you got the idea of how they train from his articles and videos etc, but there is.
A little ironic Eric trains uses Sheiko but says speed work doesn belong in PLing...
I can see where evidence is coming from with all of this. If you compete in a sport, you are told specificity is key, sprinters don't run 10 k a day, basketball players don't do MMA sparring etc.
Powerlifting, despite it's deceiving name involves very little 'power' as power is the optimal point where speed meets strength without sacrificing one more for the sake of the other. Optimal power is often put at 50% of ones absolute strength max (1RM). Powelifters lift 90-100% of their maxes in a meet, meaning that speed is sacrificed.
So it is confusing as to why athletes in a sport, who compete using weights that are well above the realms of 'speed' work, do any speed work. Upon reading a book by Zatsiorsky & Kraemer I learned about how important the rate of force development is to the initial stages of overcoming resistance and how if you can quickly overcome inertia then the following momentum will make the rest of the lift easier to complete.
JoeD, I know that real world experience is important and is in fact ultimately what really counts at the end of the day, but it is subjective and very open to bias. Most of the lifters who includes DE days in their training swear that is has increased their max, but it is not a definite fact that their accomplishments can be wholy attributed to that single factor. Other influences such as the technical feedback from Louie, focussing on ones weaknesses, training with a group of other dedicated individuals, consistency in training, band/chain work etc. all can have an effect on their maxes and to say they improved JUST because of speed work is akin to a pro-bodybuilder spouting some pseudo-science about how muscle growth only happens when you do 25 super slow, super-duper sets every workout - it could be that, or it could be the copious amounts of steroids he take, or the amount of steak he eats or so on. You with me?
I'm sitting on the fence for this one, because I can see both sides of the arguement. As G-Rex very well pointed out, speed work or DE days won't benefit novices very much, and I consider myself to be a novice so I can't really comment on how I feel speed work would benefit me in particular.
Evidence
08-20-2008, 06:43 AM
Powelifters lift 90-100% of their maxes in a meet, meaning that speed is sacrificed.
That is my exact thought on the issue and have always wanted someone to show me different. At the end of the day, the one rep max is never a pretty rep, often slow and full of struggle from start to end. As you touched upon many great points pan in your post above, maybe it's not speed work that is why people are progressing but maybe the fact that they are incorporating something different into the mix.
silver_shadow
08-20-2008, 08:45 AM
That is my exact thought on the issue and have always wanted someone to show me different. At the end of the day, the one rep max is never a pretty rep, often slow and full of struggle from start to end. As you touched upon many great points pan in your post above, maybe it's not speed work that is why people are progressing but maybe the fact that they are incorporating something different into the mix.
and then again it may be a combination of things INCLUDING speed work?
but still i can't understand why someone who wants to say WSB (or WSB-like as Joe would say) isn't a good way to train would pick up only DE out of everything and that too ignore that 50% isn't set in stone + factor in bands/chains.
G-REX
08-20-2008, 10:20 AM
With the conjugate method, the whole purpose of the system is to break the lift up into parts, so that each individual part can be strengthened, specifically the weakest part. Once the weakest part is brought up, the lift as a whole gets stronger and a new weakness usually appears, so the training has to shift to address that issue. So, yes SS, you are right in that it is the combination of the speed work, the rep work, and the max effort work that make the lift as a whole stronger.
If you were god-awful slow but can grind like a motherfucker, the fact that you are slow is a weakness. You don't need a bunch of max effort work to be able to grind out heavy reps, you need to get quicker so you can increase your force production. Thus, speed work would be beneficial to this athlete. For an athlete who can absolutely smoke 95% of his 1 rep max but then comes to a screaming halt, he probably doesn't need the speed work and needs to work on absolute strength a bit more.
Joe, the term Westside is used by most lifters to put a description on what type of training they're doing, which is most likely a version of the conjugate method and not pure Westside. I wouldn't get too caught up in what they're calling it, and just realize that they're using it as a term to describe the conjugate method. If you get irritated or bent out of shape every time someone who is using the conjugate method but hasn't actually trained at Westside, and still says they train Westside; you're going to waste a lot of time on forums like this explaining the difference.
I've talked to Louie on several occasions and have been to Westside. I've never trained under the guidance of the man and certainly wouldn't say that I have a comprehensive idea of what goes on there. I do however, have a basic understanding of the principles and ideas that make up the Westside philosophy, and implement them in my training and have done well doing so. Am I training Westside? Probably not. Am I training in a Westside-like fashion, yes, without a doubt.
PS I dont care to contact Eric because I know saying that speed work doesnt belong in powerlifting or any sport is WRONG.
as far as other sports go, such as football, basketball, track & field, etc... dynamic effort lifting has no place whatsoever.
I can see where evidence is coming from with all of this. If you compete in a sport, you are told specificity is key, sprinters don't run 10 k a day, basketball players don't do MMA sparring etc.
Powerlifting, despite it's deceiving name involves very little 'power' as power is the optimal point where speed meets strength without sacrificing one more for the sake of the other. Optimal power is often put at 50% of ones absolute strength max (1RM). Powelifters lift 90-100% of their maxes in a meet, meaning that speed is sacrificed.
So it is confusing as to why athletes in a sport, who compete using weights that are well above the realms of 'speed' work, do any speed work. Upon reading a book by Zatsiorsky & Kraemer I learned about how important the rate of force development is to the initial stages of overcoming resistance and how if you can quickly overcome inertia then the following momentum will make the rest of the lift easier to complete.
JoeD, I know that real world experience is important and is in fact ultimately what really counts at the end of the day, but it is subjective and very open to bias. Most of the lifters who includes DE days in their training swear that is has increased their max, but it is not a definite fact that their accomplishments can be wholy attributed to that single factor. Other influences such as the technical feedback from Louie, focussing on ones weaknesses, training with a group of other dedicated individuals, consistency in training, band/chain work etc. all can have an effect on their maxes and to say they improved JUST because of speed work is akin to a pro-bodybuilder spouting some pseudo-science about how muscle growth only happens when you do 25 super slow, super-duper sets every workout - it could be that, or it could be the copious amounts of steroids he take, or the amount of steak he eats or so on. You with me?
I'm sitting on the fence for this one, because I can see both sides of the arguement. As G-Rex very well pointed out, speed work or DE days won't benefit novices very much, and I consider myself to be a novice so I can't really comment on how I feel speed work would benefit me in particular.
That is my exact thought on the issue and have always wanted someone to show me different. At the end of the day, the one rep max is never a pretty rep, often slow and full of struggle from start to end. As you touched upon many great points pan in your post above, maybe it's not speed work that is why people are progressing but maybe the fact that they are incorporating something different into the mix.
and then again it may be a combination of things INCLUDING speed work?
but still i can't understand why someone who wants to say WSB (or WSB-like as Joe would say) isn't a good way to train would pick up only DE out of everything and that too ignore that 50% isn't set in stone + factor in bands/chains.
You see this is the kind of stuff that bothers me. You guys are saying that speed work could be pure fiction and it shouldn't be in powerlifting because you are tested in the 1RM only... With that logic assistance work isn't necessary because youre lifting in the 65-85% most of the time. With that logic you shouldnt use different exercises or different bars because youre not tested in a SSB or a box squat. Basically you guys are saying it doesnt work and you are drawing your conclusions from NOTHING.
Im not trying to say Westside is the best way and only way to lift. There's a lot of proof on this board that that simply isn't true. But you guys are sitting on your computers after reading a book saying DE work couldn't work. You're basically saying former soviet union sports scientists, the bulgarian's, other top lifting info from top European countries, and real world experience from the top guys in the strength game in america are wrong... all based off of a study from ERIC TALMAT and other logic.
I know for a fact if I stop DE work all together for an extended period of time the bar moves much slower. and just because a bar is moving slow doesnt mean there isn't any speed being applied to the bar. You know you can apply more force to the bar than there is actually on th bar?
So DE work is bad for athletes now? Increasing RFD in muscles doesnt work for athletes? Im interested in how you came to that conclusion..
One last point here. Science doesnt answer everything. and often time it is very wrong. There are studies out there that say bands are useless and don't work... well we know that's not true. Eric Talmat's has a useless ass study on speed work...and you get my point there.
What goes on at Westside is things you WONT read in a book or Science would say it's wrong.
For an example: one of the things Louie hasn't wrote a whole lot about is ankle weights. Without able putting maximal weights on his back for quite some time now Louie walks around the compuond with 20 lb ankle weights on (20 ea leg) and goes for 1.5 m trips a few times a week. Well, according to quite a few indicator exercises he should still hit a 900+ squat. I watched the man do a 600 back sq with a blue bands on each side with just briefs which an easy 850 at a meet (for him). and he smoked it. He contributes that to ALL the ankle weights.
Another lifter had problem sitting down and not back an dusing his glutes/hips. He used the ankle weights like Lou and it has built up his hips and his squat was fixed. He has an official 920 squat in competition but Ive seen him do 700 box sq with 2 blues and a purple (or maybe green?) and that should be at least in the 1000s somewhere. He swears it was the ankle weights that fixed everything.
Now if you go read a book or do a study on anlke weights they would probably say youre crazy for thinking they contribute to squatting (or any strength what so ever). but they have here and thats why you can't go by eric talmat studies. Science hasn't and probably won't prove the effectiveness of ankle weights but it has been proved here at Westside on ELITE lifters. and of course all the people who sit back and read books will go on the internet and say things like "well, i dont see how it works"or "they dont test ankle weight walks in PL comps, dont see how it would work," etc etc... and basically say Westside's real world experiments and results don't work!
My only thing left to say is give Louie a call and visit the gym. He would have no problem showing anyone a thing or two and you can see for yourself if speed work works or any other method there works or not. That would be better than just reading a book and a bogus study and concluding their methods don't work.
Pixie
08-20-2008, 11:17 AM
as far as other sports go, such as football, basketball, track & field, etc... dynamic effort lifting has no place whatsoever.
Really?? I don't remember straining or grinding through a 100 m run or the hurdles when I ran track, or moving slow through the tumbling exercises I did during floor routines in gymnastics. Dynamic effort lifting or dynamic anything has a HUGE place in sports like "football, basketball, track & field, etc." That's where they are most important. To encourage the speed, dynamic efforts that make one successful in those sports.
So DE work is bad for athletes now? Increasing RFD in muscles doesnt work for athletes? Im interested in how you came to that conclusion..
i didnt say it was bad, i just said it really has no place... as charlie francis has explained before:
the specific RFD in a sport that involves sprinting is so high it renders the weight speeds irrelevant.
i didnt say it was bad, i just said it really has no place... as charlie francis has explained before:
the specific RFD in a sport that involves sprinting is so high it renders the weight speeds irrelevant.
So jumping has no place either? That is considered dynamic effort also and from what I know Charlie Francis jumps his athletes.
So jumping has no place either? That is considered dynamic effort also and from what I know Charlie Francis jumps his athletes.
i didnt say plyometrics, i said DYNAMIC EFFORT LIFTING. why cant you address my post instead of ignoring what i said?
please, you and pixie both, debate this statement:
"the specific RFD in a sport that involves sprinting is so high it renders the weight speeds irrelevant."
obviously you both think thats wrong, please explain why.
thanks
silver_shadow
08-20-2008, 11:37 AM
You see this is the kind of stuff that bothers me. You guys are saying that speed work could be pure fiction and it shouldn't be in powerlifting because you are tested in the 1RM only...
not i sir. i believe it definitely has it's place in PL no matter what the *studies* might say or what dr squat says. i think you misunderstood bro.
i didnt say plyometrics, i said DYNAMIC EFFORT LIFTING. why cant you address my post instead of ignoring what i said?
please, you and pixie both, debate this statement:
"the specific RFD in a sport that involves sprinting is so high it renders the weight speeds irrelevant."
obviously you both think thats wrong, please explain why.
thanks
Because I've SEEN the dynamic effort lifting work in the real world. I dont need to get a nerdy Scientists to confirm it. That's the whole point of this thread.
Charlie Francis also refuses to use bands or chains or do 1 rms because he thinks it's dangerous. He also says to do tons of reps on abs and never do lower reps..... Does that make this all true also?
Also, most jumping isn't plyometrics...
silver_shadow
08-20-2008, 11:42 AM
i didnt say plyometrics, i said DYNAMIC EFFORT LIFTING. why cant you address my post instead of ignoring what i said?
please, you and pixie both, debate this statement:
"the specific RFD in a sport that involves sprinting is so high it renders the weight speeds irrelevant."
obviously you both think thats wrong, please explain why.
thanks
i believe there are a few top athletes (specific names/examples elude my memory right now) out there who do a bit of olympic lifting in the off season. that's a kind of DE workout innit?
i've been told so by a schoolmate of mine who's ranked on the ATP computer - he told me about how many of the top guys in tennis do a bit of olympic lifting.
i believe there are a few top athletes (specific names/examples elude my memory right now) out there who do a bit of olympic lifting in the off season. that's a kind of DE workout innit?
i've been told so by a schoolmate of mine who's ranked on the ATP computer - he told me about how many of the top guys in tennis do a bit of olympic lifting.
olympic lifting.. it's only dynamic effort if they're lifting in the right %.
Now oly lifting is definitely something that doesn't belong in sports. The top oly athletes JUMP to increase their explsiveness. Yet you ask a strength coach why they use the oly lifts and they say "because it increaeses explosiveness." well, you can be explsivie with any lift. Even Siff said oly lifts were useless for athletes and he loved oly weight lifting.
Pixie
08-20-2008, 12:01 PM
i didnt say plyometrics, i said DYNAMIC EFFORT LIFTING. why cant you address my post instead of ignoring what i said?
please, you and pixie both, debate this statement:
"the specific RFD in a sport that involves sprinting is so high it renders the weight speeds irrelevant."
obviously you both think thats wrong, please explain why.
thanks
I don't agree with that statement based off my own personal experiences and my education (which includes a doctorate in the area of exercise, muscle usage and physical activity, if that matters any). If I was to explain this to you with all the information I have, we'd all get bored, the point of this thread would be lost and I don't have the time... too much stuff to do in so little time.
Based on experience alone... I can say that when I did DYNAMIC EFFORT LIFTING of any sort when I was involved in those types of sports you listed, it only improved my capability to activate my muscles quickly for those faster movements, like hurdles, or floor routines and vaulting in gymnastics. It had a place and only made me improve and more successful. If I didn't lift dynamically, my progress stalled or sometimes worsened.
That's all I'm going to say here. In other words, I will not debate your statement further. You can disagree if you want, Nate. That's the beauty of being free thinkers and being individuals. What works for me, doesn't necessarily work for you (one of the good messages mentioned in this thread, I might add). So, if you're in those sports you listed and dynamic lifting didn't help, then you don't need to do it to be successful. But, that doesn't mean it won't help your best friend, your teammates or anyone else for that matter.
I, personally, believe/know there's a place for it, and I know quite a few others that agree that dynamic effort lifting has it's place in those sports that you listed. Therefore, I'll continue to encourage those that are in those sports to use dynamic effort lifting as I see fit, but I'll also encourage them to find what works for them... not just blindly use what works for me, or what's stated in articles, books or the like.
getjacked
08-20-2008, 01:17 PM
Because I've SEEN the dynamic effort lifting work in the real world.
has louie produced any olympian sprinters? i cant think of any but maybe im wrong
you would be hard pressed to find a coach of top level sprinters having them do dynamic effort lifts..
You see this is the kind of stuff that bothers me. You guys are saying that speed work could be pure fiction and it shouldn't be in powerlifting because you are tested in the 1RM only... With that logic assistance work isn't necessary because youre lifting in the 65-85% most of the time. With that logic you shouldnt use different exercises or different bars because youre not tested in a SSB or a box squat. Basically you guys are saying it doesnt work and you are drawing your conclusions from NOTHING.
Im not trying to say Westside is the best way and only way to lift. There's a lot of proof on this board that that simply isn't true. But you guys are sitting on your computers after reading a book saying DE work couldn't work. You're basically saying former soviet union sports scientists, the bulgarian's, other top lifting info from top European countries, and real world experience from the top guys in the strength game in america are wrong... all based off of a study from ERIC TALMAT and other logic.
I know for a fact if I stop DE work all together for an extended period of time the bar moves much slower. and just because a bar is moving slow doesnt mean there isn't any speed being applied to the bar. You know you can apply more force to the bar than there is actually on th bar?
So DE work is bad for athletes now? Increasing RFD in muscles doesnt work for athletes? Im interested in how you came to that conclusion..
The soviets were the ones who developed the methodologies and they were correctly applied to sports such as hammer throw, shotput, olympic weightlifting etc. All of which have a speed component. I would argue that powerlifting does not
The point of my post was that while you may observe increases in strength while using speed work, what is to say that it was solely down to the speed work? Louie advocates the use of so many different principles that it is impossible to gauge whether what percentage the speed work is contributing to the gains people experience?
As for you not liking science, heavy work trains your body to recruit MORE motor units over a period of time. Speed work trains the body to recruit LESS motor units FASTER. This is fact
G-rex very cleverly pointed out the example of when speed work would be necessary. Props
GetJacked also wisely pointed out the fact that very few world class athletes actually do speed lifting. It is mostly plyos and medicine ball work with heavy basic exercises such as back squats and power cleans
has louie produced any olympian sprinters? i cant think of any but maybe im wrong
you would be hard pressed to find a coach of top level sprinters having them do dynamic effort lifts..
He had one and he got her down to a 50.3 400m which is pretty damn good. But her coach said she wasn't into it that much and then came off drugs, and she ended up running a 53.something at the olympic trials....
He is actually trying to get elite sprinters and he wouldn't mind getting an elite olympic weight lifter to train @ Westside for a year so he can prove his methods to a different crowd. There's a lot of critics in the strength and conditioning field and in the olympic weight lifting field, but not many are willing to come down for a visit.
The soviets were the ones who developed the methodologies and they were correctly applied to sports such as hammer throw, shotput, olympic weightlifting etc. All of which have a speed component. I would argue that powerlifting does not
The point of my post was that while you may observe increases in strength while using speed work, what is to say that it was solely down to the speed work? Louie advocates the use of so many different principles that it is impossible to gauge whether what percentage the speed work is contributing to the gains people experience?
As for you not liking science, heavy work trains your body to recruit MORE motor units over a period of time. Speed work trains the body to recruit LESS motor units FASTER. This is fact
G-rex very cleverly pointed out the example of when speed work would be necessary. Props
GetJacked also wisely pointed out the fact that very few world class athletes actually do speed lifting. It is mostly plyos and medicine ball work with heavy basic exercises such as back squats and power cleans
Well... I said my piece. If you think there is no speed involved in powerlifting, you probably never done it. Jeeze, I shouldve sat my ass home this summer. All the world clss info is right here on the boards. I had no idea about what heavy weights do as far as inter/intra muscular coordination.
GTLifter
08-20-2008, 02:06 PM
as far as other sports go, such as football, basketball, track & field, etc... dynamic effort lifting has no place whatsoever.
Sal Alosi, S&C coach of the NY Jets, disagrees with you.
Evidence
08-20-2008, 02:13 PM
Really?? I don't remember straining or grinding through a 100 m run or the hurdles when I ran track, or moving slow through the tumbling exercises I did during floor routines in gymnastics. Dynamic effort lifting or dynamic anything has a HUGE place in sports like "football, basketball, track & field, etc." That's where they are most important. To encourage the speed, dynamic efforts that make one successful in those sports.
I believe Nate has hit the nail square on the head in this debate. Even though you say speed and dynamic effort make one successful in sport, what many feel is speed work through the nature of DE weightlifting is really nothing more than just moving lighter weight faster than you are moving your ME weight. (I've seen people use 3 rep weight that is almost a 3 rep max and say they are doing speed work, based on the bar is moving faster than a 1 rep max, but not moving to the point of qualifying it as speed work) Most of the time, of course not always, people say they are doing speed work on the bench for example, but to record and examine how fast the bar is really moving, wouldn't really be speed work in it's true form. It's nearly impossible to argue with someone such as Charlie Francis, but if you guys feel you're more qualified than him with Olympic level competition as an athlete as well as a successful coach, then be my guest and bring your information to the table.
I believe Nate has hit the nail square on the head in this debate. Even though you say speed and dynamic effort make one successful in sport, what many feel is speed work through the nature of DE weightlifting is really nothing more than just moving lighter weight faster than you are moving your ME weight. (I've seen people use 3 rep weight that is almost a 3 rep max and say they are doing speed work, based on the bar is moving faster than a 1 rep max, but not moving to the point of qualifying it as speed work) Most of the time, of course not always, people say they are doing speed work on the bench for example, but to record and examine how fast the bar is really moving, wouldn't really be speed work in it's true form. It's nearly impossible to argue with someone such as Charlie Francis, but if you guys feel you're more qualified than him with Olympic level competition as an athlete as well as a successful coach, then be my guest and bring your information to the table.
I don't, but Louie or Joe DeFranco might have the credentials to argue with Charlie. The Jets, Patriots, Sehawks, and Packers SC might have the credentials to argue with charlie.
Coach Poliquin agreed with Louie and what he was doing with his athletes and he has coached a TON of Olympians and he has the credentials also.
Francis is probably a top speed coach in the world, no doubt, but I dont think he is the best strength coach. And I have read a lot of his material to learn from, I just think his strength ideas are a little dated.
Evidence
08-20-2008, 02:26 PM
I respect Louie a ton, but Charlie Francis is in an entirely different league than Louie or Defranco in terms of working with athletes. Not even worthy of being in the same comparison in any capacity.
Coach Poliquin also turned David Boston into a freak in the NFL. But turned him into a bodybuilder, not a football player. David didn't do anything with that freakish physique but watch from the sidelines and ultimately being cut in the preason from rosters. So your point with Poliquin and Louie are not helping you. They will get you stronger, no doubt. But you can't take away from the neccessary skill work involved in athletics. The world of athletics isn't a powerlifting totals game. And if that's what you want to make of it, then you're athletes will be suffering in the long run. I'll take Charlie's guys over Louie's guys on a track, football field, basketball court, volleyball court, swimming pool, baseball field anyday of the week.
Pixie
08-20-2008, 02:45 PM
I believe Nate has hit the nail square on the head in this debate. Even though you say speed and dynamic effort make one successful in sport, what many feel is speed work through the nature of DE weightlifting is really nothing more than just moving lighter weight faster than you are moving your ME weight. (I've seen people use 3 rep weight that is almost a 3 rep max and say they are doing speed work, based on the bar is moving faster than a 1 rep max, but not moving to the point of qualifying it as speed work) Most of the time, of course not always, people say they are doing speed work on the bench for example, but to record and examine how fast the bar is really moving, wouldn't really be speed work in it's true form. It's nearly impossible to argue with someone such as Charlie Francis, but if you guys feel you're more qualified than him with Olympic level competition as an athlete as well as a successful coach, then be my guest and bring your information to the table.
Evidence, I completely agree with you with about peoples' 'misunderstanding' (for a lack of better terms) of what true speed work is. It's frustrating to me. And, for the record, I don't claim to do speed work ever, because I don't feel I do what equates to true speed work.
One thing though... I just want to say that I don't consider speed and dynamic effort synonymous. So, when I'm talking dynamic effort, I'm not speaking only of speed. It also includes technique, control, general explosiveness, etc. Dynamic work, to me, is a whole, speed is only one aspect of it.
I still feel that my dynamic work has helped me be successful in the sports that I chose in the past, so I'll continue to use dynamic work when it's appropriate.
getjacked
08-20-2008, 06:43 PM
I don't, but Louie or Joe DeFranco might have the credentials to argue with Charlie. The Jets, Patriots, Sehawks, and Packers SC might have the credentials to argue with charlie.
Coach Poliquin agreed with Louie and what he was doing with his athletes and he has coached a TON of Olympians and he has the credentials also.
Francis is probably a top speed coach in the world, no doubt, but I dont think he is the best strength coach. And I have read a lot of his material to learn from, I just think his strength ideas are a little dated.
unfortunately neither louie nor joe are really in the same realm as francis...
there is issue with you being such a big advocate of "well i WITNESSED this work for this person!".. well you can say the same thing about anything. francis has produced more top level sprinters than louie and franco combined, so because of that, and by your arguing logic, he is the one to go to for sprinting/speed, sprinting advice, etc.. not louie. yes?
unfortunately neither louie nor joe are really in the same realm as francis...
there is issue with you being such a big advocate of "well i WITNESSED this work for this person!".. well you can say the same thing about anything. francis has produced more top level sprinters than louie and franco combined, so because of that, and by your arguing logic, he is the one to go to for sprinting/speed, sprinting advice, etc.. not louie. yes?
Sure, no debate there. The proof is in the pudding. If I wanted to be as fast as possible I would seek Francis's advice. However, I would seek out Louie's advice for lifting.
my whole point is this... i respect guys like louie and defranco, but unlike charlie francis, they believe the stronger you get in the weight room, the faster you become (or you become a much better athlete). when in fact, the complete opposite is true... the faster you get, the more weights will follow you.
G-REX
08-22-2008, 10:21 PM
my whole point is this... i respect guys like louie and defranco, but unlike charlie francis, they believe the stronger you get in the weight room, the faster you become (or you become a much better athlete). when in fact, the complete opposite is true... the faster you get, the more weights will follow you.The opposite isn't necessarily true Nate. The two go hand in hand and it can work either way, you can get faster and thus produce more force. Or you can get stronger with the same effect on force production. Since there are 2 variables, if either are increased the overall rate of force will be improved, as long as you don't sacrifice one for the other. This was the basis behind speed training, certain athletes had gotten strong, but were slow. With the proper use of dynamic training the athlete was able to get faster, thereby increasng the amount of power generated.
the faster you get, the more weights will follow you.
If what you say is true, then why do they have weight classes then? This is a question Louie proposed to American oly strength coaches and they haven't answered it yet, can you?
also, everyone keeps bringing up charlie's athletes.
Louie is a strength consault for several NFL teams including the jets, browns, seahawks, packers and patriots. He has also trained former #2 heavy weight fighter in the world Kevin Randleman. So let's stop the "louie doesn't have athletes to back up claims." he does and he is trying to look for elite sprinters to stay in his gym for a year.
Evidence
09-05-2008, 03:15 AM
If what you say is true, then why do they have weight classes then? This is a question Louie proposed to American oly strength coaches and they haven't answered it yet, can you?
also, everyone keeps bringing up charlie's athletes.
Louie is a strength consault for several NFL teams including the jets, browns, seahawks, packers and patriots. He has also trained former #2 heavy weight fighter in the world Kevin Randleman. So let's stop the "louie doesn't have athletes to back up claims." he does and he is trying to look for elite sprinters to stay in his gym for a year.
Totally understandable. No one said louie doesn't have athletes. But what have his athletes done? He might have worked with Randleman but your point backs up Nate's more than your own. Randleman looks like a million bucks and is a strong strong dude. But ring the bell and watch him get dominated by more sound and well rounded fighters. No one said Louie doesn't work with athletes, but Charlie's athletes are winning gold medals. It's not even a close comparison. I don't think Louie should work with athletes. He's great for the powerlifting world. He's not an athlete. Put Chuck Vogelpohl up against Jake Long on a football field and see what happens. It would be a joke. So stay with your elite powerlifters and stay out of the NFL weightrooms. They aren't one in the same. Two different beasts. Again if you want your squat, deadlift or bench to go up in competition, go to louie. If you want to get faster and more explosive and become a better athlete go to charlie. (i know it's not that easy to just go to charlie or go to louie but in a perfect world if the choice was yours, that's what they do and are good at.)
getjacked
09-05-2008, 04:10 AM
well you are showing your distaste for louie in the above post evidence with no real substance. i guess you missed the part where there are multi multi multi million dollar coaches that trust louie to guide their athletes in the football weight room. do you and pan happen to know more about training professional football players than coaches with 20+ years of experience? what are your qualifications for implying you know more about training football athletes than they do? i mean come on man..
hes not on the same level as francis, but lets not discredit louie completely.
"wsb"/concurrent/conjugate programs are pretty popular amongst not only NFL teams but plenty and plenty of college teams. do the majority use it? no, but like i said, lets not discredit him completely.
as well, what does randleman losing have to do with louie? louie is not a technical teacher, he does not know how to fight or teach one how to fight. he knows how to make people strong and randleman is bar none one of the strongest most explosive fighters that has ever graced the MMA stage, ever. randleman has gassing issues but that is not louies fault, randleman has said before he has problems with "blowing his load" so to speak, again not louies problem.
you are once again arguing against the man with emotion and showing your distaste for him (for whatever reason) rather than logic.
Evidence
09-05-2008, 08:09 AM
I am a huge Louie Simmons supporter. I respect him very much. Love the Westside guys very much. He's very good at what he does. I support the conjugate method very much as many of previous posts have stated.
But what he does isn't on a football field or on a track, it's in the weightroom. They aren't the same. That's all i'm saying. He is good at making people strong. Size and strength doesn't always translate onto a playing field. If that were the case, every elite powerlifter would be starting in the NFL. And we all know that isn't true. Strength is a part of the game, not the game. I never said I knew more than anyone. Just giving my opinion just like you do. Go Westside!
well you are showing your distaste for louie in the above post evidence with no real substance. i guess you missed the part where there are multi multi multi million dollar coaches that trust louie to guide their athletes in the football weight room. do you and pan happen to know more about training professional football players than coaches with 20+ years of experience? what are your qualifications for implying you know more about training football athletes than they do? i mean come on man..
hes not on the same level as francis, but lets not discredit louie completely.
"wsb"/concurrent/conjugate programs are pretty popular amongst not only NFL teams but plenty and plenty of college teams. do the majority use it? no, but like i said, lets not discredit him completely.
as well, what does randleman losing have to do with louie? louie is not a technical teacher, he does not know how to fight or teach one how to fight. he knows how to make people strong and randleman is bar none one of the strongest most explosive fighters that has ever graced the MMA stage, ever. randleman has gassing issues but that is not louies fault, randleman has said before he has problems with "blowing his load" so to speak, again not louies problem.
you are once again arguing against the man with emotion and showing your distaste for him (for whatever reason) rather than logic.
exactly. His argument doesnt have any substance besides he thinks all Louie knows is powerlifting.
pls someone answer my question. if speed is the reason for moving big weights then why do we have weight classes?
Evidence
09-05-2008, 08:43 AM
Exactly Joe, becasue in real life there are no weight classes. There are no weight classes in football, basketball, etc. Why? Becasue people like pacman jones who weigh like 170 could run down and tackle jeremy shockey who outweighs him by 90 pounds. Allan Iverson can dunk on people who are a foot taller and outweigh him by 120 pounds. Speed will overcome strength in sport. Speed can allow you to move more weight as Nate and Pan have said. I can't discuss anything with you or getjacked becasue it turns into this all day and i'm just going to stop after this. There are weight classes in wrestling and in MMA becasue with skill being equal a bigger stronger opponent can possess a huge advantage. It doesn't mean bigger stronger athletes always have the advantage. I said when skill is equal or similar. It's common sense you have to divide the great fighters and wrestlers into respective weight classes and not lump them all together. Brock Lesnar fighting someone who is 140 pounds makes a lot of sense right? Same thing with Powerlifting. With similar ability and qualities, having a size and strength advantage can be unfair. You'll hear over at EliteFTS all day long, you want your totals to go up? Step 1. GAIN WEIGHT (they all say you need weight to move weight) all to a point of course. And again not in every case, but those cases it applies creates an unfair advantage. You'll find weight classes apply in a sport that is 1 on 1 and distinct advantage can occur in some instances in regards to an opponent being outweighed.
You are correct in Louie does know powerlifting. He's great at it. So you do what you are know, have experience in and are good it. It ends there though my friend. I guess I will have to say this since you don't read what I say. I LOVE LOUIE SIMMONS. As a person as a contributor to the strength community, his outlook in general. He is a no bullshit guy who is very passionate about what he does and I will support him and westside barbell in their respective avenue of training.
His background isn't in sport Joe. His background isn't in football. My background isn't in track, so you don't see me training track athletes. But you see him working with NFL guys and track athletes. And god bless him, but that's not his area of expertise. His results show that. He has produced countless numbers of champion powerlifters. That's very special. He hasn't produced olympic champions or professional athletes. There is nothing wrong with that. It's not hate on Louie. It's a fact. Powerlifting doesn't translate into all areas of other sport. It is, what it is. Getting someone ready for a meet and getting someone ready for Sunday afternoons game are two different animals. Usain Bolt, Terrelle Owens, Kobe Bryant, Barry Bonds would not benefit in their respective sports by training Westside. Doesn't mean westside isn't good. It means Westside isn't the answer for every sport need. That's not hate or stupid jiberish. That's a fact. It's not shame on louie here people. It's shame on the NFL guys who go to him. Why go to a person who was never in your shoes prepare you for that exact thing. That's why this country is ass backwards in sport preparation. China and U.S.S.R. got it right. I know, those communist countries, you're all going to tell me if you don't like here go away. It's hypocritical, people complain in the political forum everyday as they should. (sorry for off topic here)
Go Westside! (for powerlifting and very very strong people who work extremely hard)
Go Charlie Francis(for track and field preparation)
Go Tom Myslinski (for NFL preparation)
I am not granting these people the all knowing pass. No one is perfect and all have their faults. People are allowed to make choices at to who are their favorites and who they would go to. If I were in those situations , that's who i cast my vote to.
They aren't all the same yet can all co exist in this lovely place called the united states of america and what is wrong with that? Nothing
Exactly Joe, becasue in real life there are no weight classes. There are no weight classes in football, basketball, etc. Why? Becasue people like pacman jones who weigh like 170 could run down and tackle jeremy shockey who outweighs him by 90 pounds. Speed will overcome strength in sport. Speed can allow you to move more weight as Nate and Pan have said. I can't discuss anything with you or getjacked becasue it turns into this all day and i'm just going to stop after this. There are weight classes in wrestling and in MMA becasue with skill being equal a bigger stronger opponent can possess a huge advantage.
Evidence it's obvious you have little experience in the weight room, working with athletes, or both. Have you ever watched a football game before? Do you reguarly see corners blowing up lineman? How come Linebackers are 250 lbs. Dont you think the corners with blazing speed can beat out the slower 300 lb lineman? C'mon man seriously?
The correct answer to why they have weight classes is because the BIGGER you are the STRONGER you are. Damn man. Did you watch the olympics? Ever see a PL meet? are the small gusy ever pushing the weights the big guys are?
Can 170 pacman jones BLOW up an offensive lineman? Why not? Could Jeremy shockey put pacman on his ass during a running play? A TE usually doesnt get covered by a corner anyway.
Listen, I gave Charlie his credit because of his numerous elite runners. I harped on his training because I thought that what he thought was so dangerous to his athletes wasn't very dangerous at all. Other than that, i only read bits and pieces so I can't say anything more about Charlie because Ive never witnessed his magic, only read about parts of it.
On the other hand I'm giving Louie his credit and backing him up because I saw what he did in person. I'm also defending him because I'm familiar with his methods and how he implements them with athletes. You and Nate are pulling things out your ass and trying to pass it off as fact.
So if Louie DOES eventually get his elite sprinter and he/she ends up in the Olympics, what are you going to say then? You can't train what you don't have. It's also apparent you have no fucking clue what Louie's area of expertise is.
oh and for the record. ALL of louie's methods are from the USSR, Bulgaria, East Germany and the Ukraine.. ALL the countries that you got a hard on for.
Before I started lifting I weighed 140 and coudlnt touch the net on a basketball court. Now I can grab the rim at 210. How did I do that? My box jump has increased from 46'' to 50''......
BTW there are a coule PLers that have made it into the NFL... one is on the redskins right now, but he's on IR bc he got injured in pre season.
By the way, the US oly lifting team has your same mentality. They think that it's all about speed and don't do any strength exercises to push up their oly lifts..they can't get anyone to QUALIFY ....what a shame.
Well I guess I'll end there because I coach high school twinks and 95% of them won't see a decent college in sports. but i guess since none of my twinks turned into pros or olympians I probably don't ahve the slightest clue to what im talking about either
Evidence
09-05-2008, 09:38 AM
That's very ignorant and uncalled for to tell someone that it's obvious they have little experience in the weightroom or asking them if they have ever seen a football game considering their background. I don't talk about myself on here, infact i got an instant message from a member saying you aren't here for you and i'd like to learn more and asked me a lot of questions. I'm proud of that. I just now posted a pic becasue many asked for it and will be taken down very soon as that's not why i'm here. I have been here for over 5 years and never had an avatar. Those who have been here will tell you that. It's not important.
Joe, I have played volleyball, basketball and football on scholarship in college. I don't have to remind anyone on this board how tough it is to do one while taking classes, let alone 3. I told you before I would stop, but you are getting personal now and very out of line. It's one thing to disagree with someone and have different opinions. As I have had with many respected people on this board, but the word is respect. Which Joe you have non of. I have been an athlete since I could walk. I was good enough to take that to a higher level and have a passion to working with youth and help prepare them in sport.
I have spent time as a counselor for young kids who have been sexually abused, raped, neglected, etc. Being a social worker is not a financially satisfying job. But no money could ever validate the way I feel about those kids I either train, or tucked in every night and said I love you as tears came out wondering why this young man is giving a damn about them! I am currently working with and training some high school athletes and hope one day I will be able to call that my lifes work for the pure reason of loving sport and knowing how bad my training was when I was young. I had people working with me who never played that sport becasue they were someone's parent or a teacher at the school trying to make an extra buck. I do what I do becasue I love it and know I make a difference. Ask people like Trivial what it would mean to her to have someone out there who would have the back of her children if anything where to ever happen to her or her husband. I only bring her up because we have talked about it in the past. I take great offense of you saying those words to me when that is very untrue and false. This has nothing to do with our differing points of view, but everything to do with your ignorant behavior. So before you tell someone those things above that you just told me, you might want to come off your ego trip and realize that might be the exact opposite of who you are speaking to. I appreciate all the information you have brought to this forum from your experiences from westside, but you have gone way beyond having and educated banter with a member.
I hope to never speak to you again becasue what I would say would be wildy inappropriate and far from friendly. I hope everyone is having a wonderful friday and I am sorry for wasting everyone's time who this doesn't apply to.
Polski Byk
09-05-2008, 10:02 AM
Speed reps and speed work is essential for explosive power in any sport. this concept dates way way back. Very effective.
maybe i should have been more clear... when i said "speed work" i meant sprinting... not dynamic effort lifting.
for an athlete who is not a beginner, sprinting will lead the weights & allow the weight room poundages to climb higher... rather than the other way around.
let me say that an athlete needs to get stronger with total body weights, and through GPP for this to be the case, because if an adequate amount of strength is lacking, the sprinting cannot greatly contribute to overall organism strength. so i'm saying, yes, at the beginning, you must get athletes strong, for this (sprinting leading weights) to occur.
let me relay a story passed on by charlie francis himself. maybe to a point this can help people understand why in sport, weights are general & you will reach a point where getting stronger will not increase sprinting speed/on field performance.
here it is:
charlie francis relaying a story to help illustrate the role weights play in the training of an athlete:
"The other is my millionth telling of the story of Kondrateva, the 1980 Olmympic 100m champ. She divorced her husband/coach and married Yuri Seydich, the Olympic hammer champ. So Seydich said to me:"I looked at her weight training program and it was a shambles. Well I straightened that out!"
Of course, the weights were great but she never ran well again."
getjacked
09-05-2008, 11:53 AM
I am a huge Louie Simmons supporter. I respect him very much. Love the Westside guys very much. He's very good at what he does. I support the conjugate method very much as many of previous posts have stated.
But what he does isn't on a football field or on a track, it's in the weightroom. They aren't the same. That's all i'm saying. He is good at making people strong. Size and strength doesn't always translate onto a playing field. If that were the case, every elite powerlifter would be starting in the NFL. And we all know that isn't true. Strength is a part of the game, not the game. I never said I knew more than anyone. Just giving my opinion just like you do. Go Westside!
your argument still makes no sense. want to know what seperates football players? skill. what is louie? a skill coach? no, he's a strength coach. is francis a skill coach?
you still have not given one solid reason why louie cannot train a football player in the weight room, and have yet to back up your claim of "he should never train any athletes"
That's very ignorant and uncalled for to tell someone that it's obvious they have little experience in the weightroom or asking them if they have ever seen a football game considering their background. I don't talk about myself on here, infact i got an instant message from a member saying you aren't here for you and i'd like to learn more and asked me a lot of questions. I'm proud of that. I just now posted a pic becasue many asked for it and will be taken down very soon as that's not why i'm here. I have been here for over 5 years and never had an avatar. Those who have been here will tell you that. It's not important.
What's ignorant is talking about something you know nothing about and passing it off as fact. Yes, I'm surprised as hell that you played football and still have the same views you do. Notice I never ripped Francis and gave him his credit because I dont know much about him other than he produces great sprinters?
bro, I don't really care if you posted a pic, had an avatar or not, have people ask you questions, how long you been here, how many people respect you etc... that does nothing for any of your arguments.
Here's a real question. What is your experience in training athletes? have you ever trained with charlie or any well known strength coaches that get results?
p.s. i can't believe that little thing i said offended you. did you train w/ the cheer leaders when you played football? no one way you survived the environment in the weight room w/ the football players... you probably wouldnt like Louie's verbal abuse either lol.
your argument still makes no sense. want to know what seperates football players? skill. what is louie? a skill coach? no, he's a strength coach. is francis a skill coach?
you still have not given one solid reason why louie cannot train a football player in the weight room, and have yet to back up your claim of "he should never train any athletes"
exactly!!! He doesnt understand the difference between a strength coach and a coach that teaches technique and the sport.
Was Louie the reason for the patriots success? No
Was Louie the reason why the browns were so bad when Buddy Morris was there? No
Being a strength coach prepares the players for the vigors of the sport, they dont teach the actual sport themselves and thats exactly what the conjugate method has done for those NFL teams. difference was one team has good players coaching and another team didn't.
Polski Byk
09-05-2008, 01:53 PM
Louie Simmons makes peope strong, very strong in all aspects of the word. His principles and methods on strength can carry over very well to any sport with very few modifications. He focuses on making the core and everything above and below it durable and fuctional. That imo and work experiences works well in sport. Now conditioning is another animal.
Louie Simmons makes peope strong, very strong in all aspects of the word. His principles and methods on strength can carry over very well to any sport with very few modifications. He focuses on making the core and everything above and below it durable and fuctional. That imo and work experiences works well in sport. Now conditioning is another animal.
not to sound like a huge homer even more but he has a pretty good grasp on conditioning also.
I think the biggest diffrence is like getjacked said is the skill and technique which is what a coach is for. Louie does know very liittle about when it comes to each sports skill and technique but his conditioning is pretty good.
In fact most of randleman's conditioning was done at westside. He usually has his MMA fighters condition like they are in a fight. He'll have them do farmers walks for 5 min rest 1 min, then do kb clean and jerks for 5 min off 1 min off, one legged leg presses 5 min on 1 min off, etc.... fighters conditioning is pretty sick.
though the old man does have this judo champion come down and show him a thing or two. the old man is already fucked up i dont know why he tangles with this guy but whatever floats his boat ha ha.
Polski Byk
09-05-2008, 06:17 PM
not to sound like a huge homer even more but he has a pretty good grasp on conditioning also.
I think the biggest diffrence is like getjacked said is the skill and technique which is what a coach is for. Louie does know very liittle about when it comes to each sports skill and technique but his conditioning is pretty good.
In fact most of randleman's conditioning was done at westside. He usually has his MMA fighters condition like they are in a fight. He'll have them do farmers walks for 5 min rest 1 min, then do kb clean and jerks for 5 min off 1 min off, one legged leg presses 5 min on 1 min off, etc.... fighters conditioning is pretty sick.
though the old man does have this judo champion come down and show him a thing or two. the old man is already fucked up i dont know why he tangles with this guy but whatever floats his boat ha ha.
Im sure , he does alot of gpp work with his athletes. "Conditioning" is a broad term though, peaking in your conditioning for fights, dieting down and maintaining good cardio and strength while doing so, proper rehrdration teqniques after weigh in. Heavy weights are easy to condition there is rarely ever a concern on making weight. Now a guy who cuts 20-25 lbs now there is where the hard work comes in. You mentioned the leg press, machines should never be used by fighters and most other athletes, never want to put your body in a fixed position, because in sport your rarely in one. Louie Simmons is a master of what he does and his strenght training methods are battle proven constantly by the strenght athletes he produces, but as far as conditioning goes... He is on the low end of that totum pole.
G-REX
09-08-2008, 04:59 AM
Damn, this thread got way off the original mark!! It's kind of turned into Louie vs. Charlie. Both have their specialties, let's face it. Charlie probably couldn't take some kid off the street and teach him how to be a powerlifting freak and Louie probably isn't going to be setting the world on fire with a slew of olympic sprinters. That being said, both are good coaches, they each just have different methodologies.
Now as fro the original idea. I do think that the conjugate method can be used for a wide variety of activites. The idea behind the conjugate method is to strengthen each individual portion of the activity so that the whole gets stronger. This works well for just about any activity, and is already employed by most coaches. Take Usain Bolt for example. The guy has speed, no doubt. But he gets pounded off the blocks in every race he's in. I'm pretty sure his coach is going to be spending an inordinate amount of time working on his start. Once that guy can start well, they'll work on his transition. And the world better watch out if that guy figures out how to start. The idea is the same for any sport. Football receivers for example: if a guy can catch you don't need to work on it too much, if he needs to improve his routes he better be working on it, he's eventually going to have to block as well. Make each individual portion of the individual better and he will be a better athlete overall, if you take the conjugate method down to it's basic elements; it can work for any activity.
Damn, this thread got way off the original mark!! It's kind of turned into Louie vs. Charlie. Both have their specialties, let's face it. Charlie probably couldn't take some kid off the street and teach him how to be a powerlifting freak and Louie probably isn't going to be setting the world on fire with a slew of olympic sprinters. That being said, both are good coaches, they each just have different methodologies.
Now as fro the original idea. I do think that the conjugate method can be used for a wide variety of activites. The idea behind the conjugate method is to strengthen each individual portion of the activity so that the whole gets stronger. This works well for just about any activity, and is already employed by most coaches. Take Usain Bolt for example. The guy has speed, no doubt. But he gets pounded off the blocks in every race he's in. I'm pretty sure his coach is going to be spending an inordinate amount of time working on his start. Once that guy can start well, they'll work on his transition. And the world better watch out if that guy figures out how to start. The idea is the same for any sport. Football receivers for example: if a guy can catch you don't need to work on it too much, if he needs to improve his routes he better be working on it, he's eventually going to have to block as well. Make each individual portion of the individual better and he will be a better athlete overall, if you take the conjugate method down to it's basic elements; it can work for any activity.
we just asked evidence to back up his claims and i have a feeling we won't ever get an answer.
Evidence
09-11-2008, 01:38 AM
World class weightlifters, powerlifters, strongmen, sprinters, jumpers, and throwers are tremendous athletes. The training means and methodologies utilized by these great sportsmen may be adjusted with great success in the training of football players. The training means, however, are just that- a means to an end, not an end in and of themselves. If the opposite were true, and the development of a great clean, snatch, squat, bench press, deadlift, tire flip, farmers walk, or atlas stone load had any strong correspondence to the mastery of football then one might observe weightlifters, powerlifters, or strongmen change the course of their endeavors and sign NFL contracts. Once again, the reality is that we have not, nor will we ever.
There comes a point in which any further improvement in weight room numbers fails to be realized on the field. It is at this point in the players' development in which a greater percentage of the training load must be directed towards the improvement of very specific aspects of the players' positional requirements.
This was taken directly from the University of Pittsburgh Athletic website titled Pitt Football Physical Preparation. ( University of Pittsburgh Official Athletic Site (http://pittsburghpanthers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/strength-conditioning.html)) I would have to say after reading this that I agree with those statements from my own experiences and interpretation of such an idealology. And why I chose Pitt was becasue of the relationship the head strength coach Buddy Morris has with Louie and how close they are professionally as well as their strong friendship.
World class weightlifters, powerlifters, strongmen, sprinters, jumpers, and throwers are tremendous athletes. The training means and methodologies utilized by these great sportsmen may be adjusted with great success in the training of football players. The training means, however, are just that- a means to an end, not an end in and of themselves. If the opposite were true, and the development of a great clean, snatch, squat, bench press, deadlift, tire flip, farmers walk, or atlas stone load had any strong correspondence to the mastery of football then one might observe weightlifters, powerlifters, or strongmen change the course of their endeavors and sign NFL contracts. Once again, the reality is that we have not, nor will we ever.
There comes a point in which any further improvement in weight room numbers fails to be realized on the field. It is at this point in the players' development in which a greater percentage of the training load must be directed towards the improvement of very specific aspects of the players' positional requirements.
This was taken directly from the University of Pittsburgh Athletic website titled Pitt Football Physical Preparation. ( University of Pittsburgh Official Athletic Site (http://pittsburghpanthers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/strength-conditioning.html)) I would have to say after reading this that I agree with those statements from my own experiences and interpretation of such an idealology. And why I chose Pitt was becasue of the relationship the head strength coach Buddy Morris has with Louie and how close they are professionally as well as their strong friendship.
.
a) There have been PLers to sign athletic contracts. Phillip Daniels of the WSH Redskins just recently competed ina meet in the off season.. Did you know tiki barber toward the end of his career started a powerlifting oriented routine? He played like shit his last few years right?
b) thats such BS. Strength coaches who say "there are diminishing returns in the weight room" are teh weak bastards who cant get anyone strong ie Mike Boyle...
c) have you ever seen how buddy trains? he trains like a body builder even though he uses SOME form of the conjugate method.
d) YOU STILL FAIL TO SEE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A STRENGTH COACH AND A COACH WHO TEACHES TECHNIQUE!!!!!
out of curiosity what kind of #s do you put up evidence? you still have very weak arguments to back your claims up..
i bet this is you functional training evidence :D
http://z.about.com/d/golf/1/5/Y/g/MB_Rotational_Lunge.JPG
IliekFude
09-11-2008, 10:07 AM
ouch..
lol you guys are still goin at it in here huh?
brotha..
Polski Byk
09-11-2008, 11:56 AM
Cmon guys no using the "guy holding the medicine ball doing a trunk twist" pic to insult, sometimes theres no coming back from that lol!. Both you guys make good points, lets not turn it into a roast.
Cmon guys no using the "guy holding the medicine ball doing a trunk twist" pic to insult, sometimes theres no coming back from that lol!. Both you guys make good points, lets not turn it into a roast.
lol! He's pretty close to roasting himself. The difference between Evidence and is I can back everything up. He's pulling things out of the air and passing it off as fact.
You know the problem with a pissing match? Everybody ends up with piss all over them.
:turd:
You know the problem with a pissing match? Everybody ends up with piss all over them.
:turd:
That's fine, I like golden showers. Golden shower porn is some of my favorite porn.
Evidence
09-11-2008, 02:18 PM
i bet this is you functional training evidence :D
http://z.about.com/d/golf/1/5/Y/g/MB_Rotational_Lunge.JPG
And wasting our time with replies like this helps out anyone, how? I've made my points and my peace. No matter what is said, you take it somewhere that is unneccesary. I cited that very thorough mission statement of physical preparation for football by the staff at the University of Pittsburgh. Whether you agree or disagree is your choice. But to say that was pulled out of thin air and I can't back up my claims is insulting the staff there who put in a lot of work not only in that piece of literature, but their commitment to training Division I level athletes. No matter what level you are at, to tell another person that you can always back up your claims is extremely irrelevant. No one in the entire world has this all figured out. Can we please talk about training and not use attacks as your arsenal? It's not a matter of being able to take it or not, they are just words, but no one benefits from such elementary responses such as those pics and comments. We're here to create an educated and respected environment to share information. Where you have taken this just wastes everyone's time. This will be last post in this thread. Sorry Joseph had to steer it in such a dead end steet.
So the University of Pittsburgh is the leading authority in Strength and Conditioning? How about Penn State or Michigan? They train DI athletes also and they use "HIT" methods. Do you see the diff between my logic and yours? You're going by what a few people told you, I'm going by what I've SEEN to be true.
I also believe there is more than one way to skin a cat. So while Louie's methods may not be the only way and some of his stuff may be "wrong," he has worked plenty of D1 athletes..
BTW at one point the Pitt football was using the conjugate methods as taught by Louie.
You still failed to back up your claim other than saying "well this is how this person does it" Game over, IMO
The moderators have removed one party from this thread, continue on and keep it on track. I'll lock it if it goes off track again. C'mon now.
getjacked
09-11-2008, 03:03 PM
while I agree with a lot of JoeD's points, he's the closest thing to a troll i've seen on AF while i've been here. this thread is done for.
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