Mark Rippetoe coaching the squat

[Pan]

Ok I stumbled across this video the other day:

YouTube - Mark Rippetoe: Fixing the Squat: Hip Drive (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yha2XAc2qu8)

Just wanted to see his take on the squat. Now I've got loads of respect for the guy, but to me that guy's squat was rubbish, and mark barely did anything to correct it. The advice he gave him was to use "hip drive". But to me it looks as though it's a leg extension then a good morning. To me a good Oly squat would be: torso virtually upright, and stance about shoulder width.

The guy in the video looks like he has a very weak core because he is bent over so much, and he also cant break parallel, something rip also didn't address.

Just wanted to see if it was just me that thought this?

[rmexico]

The kid has the bar low on his back, so it looks more like a PL squat.

In any type of squat, you want to keep the bar over your feet, so the optimal degree of forward lean depends on a few things. The lower you have the bar on your back, the more you have to lean forward. Also, the shorter your torso relative to your legs, the more you have to lean forward.

I don't think the depth was all that bad for a PL squat. He was high on a couple, though. I can almost literally go ATG on front squats without rounding my back, but it's completely different for PL squats.

[A L]

That ain't a squat IMO. 3/4 squat maybe.

[Cynical Simian]

I'll preface this by saying that, like others, I'm partial to Oly back squats...

Anyway, this been mentioned in passing before, but the squat Rippetoe (among other things, a strength coach for team sports) teaches is more of an "athletic squat", something of a hybrid between an Oly and PL squat. So the things that you guys are criticizing (low[ish] bar position, wide[ish] stance, range of motion, etc.) are all part of what a "Rippetoe squat" is supposed to be. The rationale (which he touched on in Starting Strength) is, in essence, that it allows more weight to be handled than a pure Oly squat but a greater range of motion than a pure PL squat.

[Pan]

I'll preface this by saying that, like others, I'm partial to Oly back squats...

Anyway, this been mentioned in passing before, but the squat Rippetoe (among other things, a strength coach for team sports) teaches is more of an "athletic squat", something of a hybrid between an Oly and PL squat. So the things that you guys are criticizing (low[ish] bar position, wide[ish] stance, range of motion, etc.) are all part of what a "Rippetoe squat" is supposed to be. The rationale (which he touched on in Starting Strength) is, in essence, that it allows more weight to be handled than a pure Oly squat but a greater range of motion than a pure PL squat.

Cool, thanks for clearing that up. I was thinking it was a more PL squat than Oly. I'm a bit of a purist and seeing that just made me sick lol. I do remember reading an interview where mark states he likes to use a low bar squat with a wider stance, but in my opinion that kid still should have been able to hit more depth than that - it broke my little heart seeing him stop before even breaking parallel lol

[getjacked]

there's nothing wrong weith that squat for what it is. it's not an "Olympic" squat. in fact, 99% of people doing "Olympic Squats" shouldn't really be doing them as 99% of people cannot properly do them.

a couple of those were high in a USAPL/IPF meet, but he's not training for a USAPL/IPF meet.

[Evidence]

YouTube - Chinese Lifters at the 2008 Arnold (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_jxTc2ITA8&feature=related)

I really think this is very sound here. Head up, back pretty straight and sit down and rip!

[A L]

YouTube - Chinese Lifters at the 2008 Arnold (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_jxTc2ITA8&feature=related)

I really think this is very sound here. Head up, back pretty straight and sit down and rip!

That is how I squat. To me those aren't overly deep - just very practical and athletic. I am stronger with a high bar placement... not sure why, but I am.

[Pan]

YouTube - Chinese Lifters at the 2008 Arnold (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_jxTc2ITA8&feature=related)

I really think this is very sound here. Head up, back pretty straight and sit down and rip!

Absolutely fucking textbook...apart from the spaz walking backwards re-rack!!

[getjacked]

I am stronger with a high bar placement... not sure why, but I am.

becasue your posterior chain and lower back is weaker than your quadriceps, and probably becasue you squat w/ a high bar = thats what you know how to do best.

in the long run though AL, if you compete in a PL fed that is not USAPL/IPF, you will give up plenty of squat pounds by squatting with a high bar, close stance, deep position. thats why "athletic" squats are always such a.. well, wrong term. because athletic for what purpose? to walk around and play no sports? most people that are all about "functional" and "athletic" movements have zero involvement in any athletics, so the term always bothers me, but i know what you mean..

[*Bunny*]

YouTube - Chinese Lifters at the 2008 Arnold (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_jxTc2ITA8&feature=related)

I really think this is very sound here. Head up, back pretty straight and sit down and rip!GREAT VIDEO!!!

Im stealing it

[A L]

becasue your posterior chain and lower back is weaker than your quadriceps, and probably becasue you squat w/ a high bar = thats what you know how to do best.

in the long run though AL, if you compete in a PL fed that is not USAPL/IPF, you will give up plenty of squat pounds by squatting with a high bar, close stance, deep position. thats why "athletic" squats are always such a.. well, wrong term. because athletic for what purpose? to walk around and play no sports? most people that are all about "functional" and "athletic" movements have zero involvement in any athletics, so the term always bothers me, but i know what you mean..

I agree and am doing lots of posterior chain work. I want to compete and due to all circumstances I think the APF will be my home.

I also agree that I do what I feel I can do best. I try to get the bar lower on my back but just hate how it feels.

By athletic I mean what is has more practical carryover for an athlete. I'm 32 and my days of baseball and football are long gone, but I still feel like a close stance high bar squat is a better choice for a young person trying to get stronger for a sport.

[RagingBull666]

YouTube - Chinese Lifters at the 2008 Arnold (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_jxTc2ITA8&feature=related)

I really think this is very sound here. Head up, back pretty straight and sit down and rip!

You all seriously think these are good form squats? Well I suppose of you don't like your knees you can call them squats. This is absolutely HORRID form!! They break then knees first and sit straight down. I would cut my own throat if I EVER squatted like this or coached anyone to squat like this.

I was wondering why powerlifters hadn't hit on this thread yet and now I know why. SS, RB

[RagingBull666]

That is how I squat. To me those aren't overly deep - just very practical and athletic. I am stronger with a high bar placement... not sure why, but I am.

No you are not. You just don't know how to squat correctly AL. Kevin Nee thought he was stronger with a high bar placement also............ until he squatted with us. In one squat session I got him a 50 lb. PR after teaching him to squat correctly. SS, RB

[A L]

No you are not. You just don't know how to squat correctly AL. Kevin Nee thought he was stronger with a high bar placement also............ until he squatted with us. In one squat session I got him a 50 lb. PR after teaching him to squat correctly. SS, RB

I plan to go see Ray and G-Rex soon to get my form worked on. WIsh i could come cuddle with you in AZ buddy!

:coolugh:

[RagingBull666]

I plan to go see Ray and G-Rex soon to get my form worked on. WIsh i could come cuddle with you in AZ buddy!

:coolugh:

I'm very, very cuddly............ just ask Ray!!

G-Rex and Ray will get your form worked out dude. You couldn't ask for better coaches!! SS, RB

[A L]

I'm very, very cuddly............ just ask Ray!!

G-Rex and Ray will get your form worked out dude. You couldn't ask for better coaches!! SS, RB

I am excited bro - I can't wait to compete - all I think about is this meet.

[Evidence]

You all seriously think these are good form squats? Well I suppose of you don't like your knees you can call them squats. This is absolutely HORRID form!! They break then knees first and sit straight down. I would cut my own throat if I EVER squatted like this or coached anyone to squat like this.

I was wondering why powerlifters hadn't hit on this thread yet and now I know why. SS, RB


I understand that you powerlift, so you don't squat like the guys in that video clip. But to call those guys squat form, "Horrid form" is pretty incorrect. It is horrible in what sense? Because you don't squat like that? I mean those kids there are so strong and for how much they weigh and the weight they are just warming up with before their lifts, that is super impressive the way they handle that. Just how I would never coach my athletes to stand ultra far apart and go for one rep maxes like you do. It doesn't mean the way you lift is "Horrid" or no one should ever coach their athletes to squat like you, there is no purpose for them to squat like you do. They will never be in a stance on a field like that. So it doesn't make your way wrong, it just makes it non applicable in some situations. So why is it that every other way that you do it is so wrong and you'd never be caught showing someone that form. Especially in the world of training with so many things being the opposite of absolute truth or scientific laws that are just nothing more than theory, you can't have the stance that your way is the best way and everyone else is wrong. I give the nod to the kids in that video for having great form, to agree or disagree is fine. To say it's horrid is extremely ignorant. You'd be flipping out if someone showed a powerlifting squat and people were saying how horrible it was, so why be like that?

[RagingBull666]

My statement stands and I won't retract it at all.

Those guys break at their knees first........ HORRID!! I don't care about their stance at all. I played ball for 10 years and lifted for ball until I got into powerlifting. I fully understand how to squat for athletics.

Nobody should EVER break at the knees first and let them drift THAT far out over their toes. If you look at my statement my entire comment is about the knees breaking and sitting down. IT IS NOT CORRECT. IT IS HORRID!!!

FYI I don't have an ultra wide stance at all. SS, RB

[G-REX]

The "Rippetoe Squat" looks like a hybrid squat to me, as someone above already said. The Chinese lifters in the middle clips are classic "Oly Squats" and are good, deep squats. Good form for what they are, oly squats used to prep a lifter for their main lifts. Neither of these squats is going to win them a powerlifting meet, but that's not their objective. They are simply using an exercise to prepare them for whatever activity they are involved in, nothing wrong with any of the exercises for that purpose. Lets face it, how often do you end up ass to grass on a football field? Only situation I can think of in which a player ends up that low is a catcher in baseball. Oly squats are impractical for sports training, thats why this guy Rippetoe coaches the squat the way he does, he wants a practical squat to strengthen his athletes. Nothing wrong with it, my only concern is that if a guy has real strong hips and a weak low back and ends up in that position, he's going to get hurt. I don't know what Rippwtoe's system or regimen looks like, but as long as he has a lot of solid back work in there to insure the safety of his lifters, I don't see a problem with it.

[G-REX]

I plan to go see Ray and G-Rex soon to get my form worked on. WIsh i could come cuddle with you in AZ buddy!

:coolugh:Looking forward to it, A L!

[getjacked]

they squat the way they do for a reason RB. they are coached by elite level OL coaches for the OLYMPICS, im pretty sure they know what theyre doing.

its all goal dependent. squatting that way will not only give best quad strength but also mimic the bottom portion of a C&J best.

just like lots of APF lifters often squat to above parallel. why? because your fed allows it. so thats what you train for. :p

[RagingBull666]

I know why they squat. I also know they have limited careers due to knee trauma. I know a thing or two believe it or not. I also know it is a mechanically inefficient way to squat.

[Evidence]

they squat the way they do for a reason RB. they are coached by elite level OL coaches for the OLYMPICS, im pretty sure they know what theyre doing.

its all goal dependent. squatting that way will not only give best quad strength but also mimic the bottom portion of a C&J best.

just like lots of APF lifters often squat to above parallel. why? because your fed allows it. so thats what you train for. :p


Those are some good points getjacked I was trying to get into. You touched on it great, people have different goals. That has to be identified from square one. Olympic Lifters, Powelifters, Strongmen revolve around training a lift or exercse that is actually the sport itself. There are different goals and specfic tasks in each of them that make them different. I just don't understand why it's so hard to maybe think there are different ways to achieve these goals. Especially if you play a sport like football, volleyball, track, basketball, etc. The weightlifting in these situations is a general attempt of strength and conditioning. The specificity is achieved during the skill work, during the practices of the sport. Even as getjacked stated in powerlifting you have different federations that allow different rules and gear and all kinds of things. That even is a reason one guy squats like this in this federation and this guy squats like this in that federation. Just becasue you do things one way, doesn't make another incorrect. Becasue raginbull, no one said once that you don't know anything or no challenge was issued. And you ripped those olympic lifters apart. Imagine how you'd feel if we posted a powerliftin video an olympic lifter or two just ripped those powerlifters apart, you'd go apeshit bro.

[RagingBull666]

Ev, let me ask a question to those who posted that it was a "text book or perfect" squat. Do you guys oly lift? I know A L does not. How about Pan. Did you say that because you oly lift? If he did then I will agree with you Ev, however I KNOW A L is a powerlifter and as such should NOT be squatting like that.

I was basing my statement on the assumption that nobody here is an oly lifter and that is wrong. Sooooooo, if you are an oly lifter that is correct.

If you squat for any other reason that is horrid (had to throw that in Ev). That is not a good squat for football, volleyball, track or basketball. Stay Strong, RB

[Pan]

I do oly lift. I'm never going to compete. I had a training layoff lately and am focussing on more traditional training at the moment, but am oly squatting every workout. Bear in mind guys that these lifters are lifting 200+kg and usually at a bodyweight of 70-80kg. I find that super impressive.

People who don't compete in oly lifting do the exercise for its cosmetic benefits to the quad area, and is safer than a standard parallel squat as seen being performed by bodybuilders. I understand that PL squatting utilises favourable biomechanics to acheive the most load. But some people want to achieve the best load they can over the widest range of motion they can. Take for example BiggT on here. He learned the oly lifts when he was younger and still trains them now. He doesn't compete, and he a massive supporter of using heavy loads, but he wouldn't sacrifice range of motion over a squat PR.

I don't want to step on anyone's toes here but the following has been bugging me: what is the difference between a powerlifter shortening the ROM and gaining favourable biomechanics to achieve a squat PR and a 160lb frat boy quarter curling 200lb on the preacher curl bench? I understand this is a gross oversimplification and don't mean to undermine anyone by this, its just something that has been bouncing around in my head. If someone said to me 'I can curl 200lb' I'd expect them to show me just that (not that I really care for curling but it's just an example), not them quarter curling a weight on a preacher curl bench, taking advantage (and quite frankly, raping) the laws of physics. I'm not going to go into the gear issue here but that's similar to this. Squatting a grand in gear is just that...squatting a grand...IN GEAR. I would far prefer to see lower numbers (albeit VERY VERY impressive numbers) over jacked up numbers any day. But that's just my personal preference.

A L did oly lift and was a massive proponent of it until he turn to the dark side lol. Just kidding ;)

However, I agree, I too dispute the relevence of the oly squat to athletics, but seeing as the top sprinters and athletes in the world are doing them I cant argue too much with it. If I'm honest the one movement that is totally relevent is the clean and its variations.

All that being said I totally amire PLers and Oly lifters alike.

[Evidence]

I'm similar to Pan here as olympic lifts are in my workouts, but I don't have someone coaching me like I need to on a consistent basis to better those lifts. I don't compete as that's not my goal, who knows maybe after time of mastering the movements, but it's a great way to get maximum force output from your body with full range of motion. I will have to disagree Ragingbull that it's not a horrible way to squat for athletes.

There is an example in Science and Practice of Strength Training where he talks about the squat and uses this very simple example. He compares the olympic style squat to the powerliftng squat. He says take a spring. And let's say that the spring is our body. The shorter and slower you push down on the spring, the less force you're going to get the spring to exert in energy back. The deeper and more forefull you push down on the spring the more force and energy it will push back. You can more weight by shortening the range of motion and half or quarter squatting, but besides being able to perform just that task, the carry over to performing other sport movements explosively in this example is zero. If you are training for a powerlifting meet and that's how you can allow yourself to move the most weight, then that's how you do it i guess. But the carryover ends at the powerlifting meet. It will not help a volleyball player for example become more explosive. Olympic lifting methods will most certainly allow for that progress to happen. Just to receive a pass from high level jump serve many times your ass is so low to the ground and you have to sprawl out of the position to prepare to explode into an attack on the ball. You must be able to make split second adjustments while feet on the ground and also airborn. Powerlifting is limit strength with maximal loads being lifted with shortened range of motion with feet fixed to the ground. That sport example is almost the complete opposite. It has to have carryover and has to have goal specific results. Powerlifting is very limited to only those who compete in it. Olympic lifts can be done for not only the lifts themselves but to help athletes who need to be explosive and strong. Pan very good points on the curling example. I liked that.

[getjacked]

Powerlifting is very limited to only those who compete in it. Olympic lifts can be done for not only the lifts themselves but to help athletes who need to be explosive and strong. Pan very good points on the curling example. I liked that.

this is highly debated and you are stating it as fact. some of the brightest minds in S&C disagree with you. plenty of top coaches will not incorporate any OL (especially from the floor) due to the level of technicality needed. on that note, plenty of top level coaches will use plenty of powerlifting movements with the simple thought of.. a stronger athlete will always make them better.

then there are camps that will sit there and teach the olympic lifts to their athletes and watch them to reverse upright rows for cleans and think it helps their "explosion".

[getjacked]

I'm not going to go into the gear issue here but that's similar to this. Squatting a grand in gear is just that...squatting a grand...IN GEAR. I would far prefer to see lower numbers (albeit VERY VERY impressive numbers) over jacked up numbers any day. But that's just my personal preference.



i'm not sure what relevance this has to the post other than you wanting to rant about powerlifting.

[getjacked]

I don't want to step on anyone's toes here but the following has been bugging me: what is the difference between a powerlifter shortening the ROM and gaining favourable biomechanics to achieve a squat PR and a 160lb frat boy quarter curling 200lb on the preacher curl bench?

and the answer to your question is that the difference is is one competing and the other is not. powerlifters do not do what they do to impress people in the gym or the internet. they do it for competitive purposes.

[Pan]

Getjacked, Yeah I know. As a said, gross oversimplification, but still at the end of the day my point was sacrificing ROM for poundage. I know I jacked my own thread by bringing up gear, that's just my own beef, but it did have some relevence to what I was saying.

You think along the same lines as louie on the technical aspects of oly lifting. But why can't the athletes learn todo the lifts side by side with 'conventional' training? I'm not saying I'd expect everyone to be snatching and clean and jerking, but variations on those moves, i.e. from the hang or power cleans/snatch etc take far less time to master and the athlete can benfit from them greatly.

The strength and conditioning community is shifting it's paradigm once again. Coaches are realising it's not how much strength an athlete has, but how quickly he or she can use it. It's like the old paradigm of coaching where athletes just 'played themselves into shape' - a time when resistance training was frowned upon. Now it seems the S&C world has it's fair share of coaches who prefer good old fashioned calisthenics, or those who do, as you say, 'powerlifting exercises'. But there are also plenty of coaches who realise the value of the SPEED component. These are the guys who use medicine balls, plyos, oly lifts and sprints to make their athletes faster and stronger

[Evidence]

Getjacked you are right , many people will argue with my feelings and interpretations on certain instances. That is what makes this sport the way it is, people will always be the other side of the fence no matter what the issue is. It's almost like politics , well it is in many ways. No matter how many people talk about any topic, there will always be someone come up from behind and point out the faults to those points.

And you are correct in some coaches will not incorporate any olympic lifts into their programs. It's their responsibility to do what they feel is best and just becasue some don't practice it doesn't mean they are right. Just as some coaches who only teach olympic lifts, doesn't mean they are correct. There has to be some middle ground in my opinion. I'm not going to get into the gear debate as we have already crossed that bridge. I feel on this issue, to each his own ya know. But at least people like pan, ragingbull, getjacked, you men are out there doing it. I respect that. You're training and you're working on what you feel is best. That's great that you can all bring something from your experiences and we can maybe converse and see if we can help educate someone. Keep working hard in whatever aspect in training you are busting your ass for. I'll listen to you guys anyday of the week who are in the fire doing it than have someone who has a piece of paper from a college who hasn't done jack themselves try to act like he knows what is best due to his or her observations in a classroom or on the sidelines on a court of field. We need more of this in our country and it's just not happening.

[Halfway]

those squats might offer some more quad development over a PLing squat, but my knees wouldn't like me if I did that.. no sir.

Rippetoes double-dip push up the hips, head down and then GM the bar up is probably fine for the 'athletes' at crossfit who won't ever lift more than 225 but imo a faceplant waiting to happen if you tried it with a heavy weight.

[Evidence]

those squats might offer some more quad development over a PLing squat, but my knees wouldn't like me if I did that.. no sir.

Rippetoes double-dip push up the hips, head down and then GM the bar up is probably fine for the 'athletes' at crossfit who won't ever lift more than 225 but imo a faceplant waiting to happen if you tried it with a heavy weight.


I honestly thought the exact same thing bro as you start loading that bar up, you're going to see a video on youtube of an athlete hitting the ground face first with weights on his back.

[G-REX]

Getjacked, Yeah I know. As a said, gross oversimplification, but still at the end of the day my point was sacrificing ROM for poundage. I know I jacked my own thread by bringing up gear, that's just my own beef, but it did have some relevence to what I was saying.

You think along the same lines as louie on the technical aspects of oly lifting. But why can't the athletes learn todo the lifts side by side with 'conventional' training? I'm not saying I'd expect everyone to be snatching and clean and jerking, but variations on those moves, i.e. from the hang or power cleans/snatch etc take far less time to master and the athlete can benfit from them greatly.

The strength and conditioning community is shifting it's paradigm once again. Coaches are realising it's not how much strength an athlete has, but how quickly he or she can use it. It's like the old paradigm of coaching where athletes just 'played themselves into shape' - a time when resistance training was frowned upon. Now it seems the S&C world has it's fair share of coaches who prefer good old fashioned calisthenics, or those who do, as you say, 'powerlifting exercises'. But there are also plenty of coaches who realise the value of the SPEED component. These are the guys who use medicine balls, plyos, oly lifts and sprints to make their athletes faster and stronger
Funny that you mention Louie, then go on to talk about speed. Louie is the guy who brought the idea of speed to competitive powerlifting. Now granted, he borrowed/stole the idea from the russian style oly training, but he did change it to suit his needs. I know of several athletes, some on a professional evel that use the conjugate method of powerlifting and are extremely explosive players. There are several different ways to get fast, just as there are several different ways to get strong. It's when you get fast and strong that you can reall move some weight.

[Pan]

Funny that you mention Louie, then go on to talk about speed. Louie is the guy who brought the idea of speed to competitive powerlifting. Now granted, he borrowed/stole the idea from the russian style oly training, but he did change it to suit his needs. I know of several athletes, some on a professional evel that use the conjugate method of powerlifting and are extremely explosive players. There are several different ways to get fast, just as there are several different ways to get strong. It's when you get fast and strong that you can reall move some weight.

Yeah, I know about westside's philosophies. Thanks for bringing that into the debate. Undoubtedly the dynamic effort days work. Speed box squats incorporate the speed element in order to increase the rate of force development. I cannot deny the benefits this may have. However, as you've said, Louie DID borrow the ideas from russian philosophy (although, if you read into the subject, the russian sport scientist louie is said to have been influenced by, actually commented upon Louie's westside philosophies and stated that he may have misinterpretted some of his teachings, or focussed too heavily upon certain aspects. Anyways all of this is way off topic lol

[Pan]

those squats might offer some more quad development over a PLing squat, but my knees wouldn't like me if I did that.. no sir.

Rippetoes double-dip push up the hips, head down and then GM the bar up is probably fine for the 'athletes' at crossfit who won't ever lift more than 225 but imo a faceplant waiting to happen if you tried it with a heavy weight.


I honestly thought the exact same thing bro as you start loading that bar up, you're going to see a video on youtube of an athlete hitting the ground face first with weights on his back.

Yeah that's what I was thinking and yet another one of the points I disagreed with in the video

[BiggT]

That vid of the Chinese lifter posted is a textbook olympic squat. Joint problems in Oly lifting are an overuse thing due to the freuqency of the workouts and the total workload.

When the bar is placed high and you keep the back vertical, going all the way down over a full range of motion is fine, even when the knees cross the toes and even when the knees break first, it doesn't matter because the lower you squat, the more the load is transferred from the knees to the hips (taking for granted that the lifter is stable and not flopping all over the place, and their torso is upright, etc.). A correct, and I stress correct olympic style squat isn't going to cause anybody knee problems, it's just not. Lifters at a high level, whether it be OL or PL are going to get hurt, it isn't from lifting incorrectly with bad form, it is from load, frequency, and years of pounding the body.

In a PL squat, it is apples to oranges. The only thing a Oly squat and a PL squat have in common is they are both called "squats." Stopping a PL squat a paralell or higher isn't going to harm the knees because you've got the bar low on the back and you're sitting back with the weight breaking at the hips first.

There is really no way to compare the two. If you specialize in a particular area of the iron game, you've probably got little use for something from another area. An athlete needs both strong quads and a strong posterior chain. An athlete doing strictly oly squats better be doing GMs or Dls or some type of movement to strengthen the posterior chain, and an athlete strictly doing the "PL-style" sqauat better be doing front squats in addition or some type of movement to strengthen the quads.

As far as Oly lifting in sports goes, you don't NEED them to be a better athlete. When done correctly, the lifts help an athlete. Coaches who bash the oly lifts do it out of frustration because they can neither do them nor teach them, I have no problem when somebody can't do the lifts, they aren't easy . . . but to bash them because of it is silly for lack of a better word. You can train an athlete to be strong and explosive with other means, and if you can't coach the lifts properly into an existing strength program, then you'll waste time on mechanics when the athlete can be getting stronger doing other lifts. I agree with all of the above and recommend it to anybody who isn't comfortable with oly lifting. My take is it helps an athlete, but an athlete doesn't need it as there are other ways. I do feel it is assinine when coaches (who know nothing about the lifts) bash them out of frustration bc they can't teach them.

[Pan]

Great points, ones I totally agree with. Especially the fact that when done correctly an Oly squat won't automatically destroy your knees.

However as you mentioned load plays a massive role. A lot of old basketball players have knee problems from the intense plyometric nature of the sport, does it mean they have been doing it wrong? No, it means the bashing their joints have taken have come about as a cumulative effect of years of stress on the joint, which is going to happen with ANYTHING if you do it for long enough, as the human body's abilities to recuperate itself and repair connective tissue etc. decline over time.

Also agree on the point of coaches not teaching olympic lifts because they don't know how to. If they don't know about them, then that's fine, find a way around them, but don't bash a brilliant form of exercise because you don't know how to do it.

What are your thoughts on the vid T?

[BiggT]

Pan, as far as the Ripptoe vid, Cynical Simian said pretty much, word-for-word, what I would have said. Ripptoe teaches a "hybrid" squat. Trying to use a little more posterior chain than an oly squat and trying to still not sacrifice range of motion. For a back squat, I am probably more partial to a closer-stance with a more upright back. Again, that is how those squats look with that particular kid, everybody's leverages and bodies are a bit different, and sometimes a kid has to stand wider to get a little more depth or balance, some people have tight hamstrings, etc. With coaching massive amounts of people, I think you need to be elastic in your approach and all.

With Ripptoe, you need to know WHY he does what he does as he always has valid reasons. Another example is that he teaches the standing strict press from a clean grip. I personally think it is awkward, but he does it because when the kid moves on to push presses or jerks (if they'll be jerking), you need the bar racked across the front delts to get the most out of your leg drive, so he hammers it home from the beginning. For someone who knows how to work with a clean grip, I wouldn't suggest doing strict presses from one though.

One more thing I forgot to add with the talk of length of careers in sports and injuries, olympic lifting, besides strength, is even more about speed, balance, flexibility, and athleticism, athletic attributes that tend to deteriorate around 32-33 in most people (unless you're Brett Favre, lol). I think looking at careers in oly lifting, you can't compare it right in line with the classic "iron games" like BB and PL. You need to compare it to what is "old" for something like football, a sport where strength is important, but it can't compensate for the deterioration of athletic abilities.

[Evidence]

T, very well said in your posts. You can truely take a little bit from each aspect of training and implement it properly to balance out your attack. I understand totally that yes while olympic lifts can benefit athletes by improving their explosive strength , they aren't the only thing that can make an athlete better. And as getjacked said earlier, why have a kid do a modified upright row essentially instead of cleaning properly for the sake of doing something just to do it. It is very hard to properly teach such movements and if that can't be achieved, then yes go to the toolbox to do something else. But to bash it and say oh no you aren't getting the strength benefits as PL stance or whatever is just a little ridiculous. It's like getting dumped by your girlfriend and telling everyone how much of a bitch she is. Well if that's the case then why were you with her and not saying this before? It's just convenient for people to discredit something they don't understand.