Tweeking a B. Starr routine

[TheSuaveOne]

Hopkins Football 2000 Summer Lifting: Upperclassmen

by Bill Starr

Monday (Heavy Day)

Squats 5 x 5; 1 x 8 (back-off set)

Bench Press: Change your routine every week. Always do three sets of five as warm-ups then do three sets of heavier triples, doubles or singles. Some weeks you might want to find a work weight and do it for 3-5 sets of five. Do one or two back-off sets of eight.

Back Work: Alternate deadlifts with power clean and clean high pullsevery other week. Change up the reps on the deadlifts each time you do them. Do five sets of five, two sets of five, followed by three sets of 3, or four sets of eight. Work five sets of five on the power cleans, then do four sets of three on the clean high pull. You should be doing fifty more pounds on the high pull on your very first set than you used for your last power clean and aim at using 100 more pounds on your final set.

Auxiliary Work: Incline Dumbbells: Change these around also. One week do three sets of twelve or fifteen, then another do two sets of twenty. Do NOT do any less than 10 reps however.

Tuesday (Light Day)

Power Snatches: Two sets of five, then four to five sets of three. As long as you are maintaining goof form, you can do extra sets but when the form gets sloppy, move on to the high pulls.

(Note from Coach Margraff??make sure you know what you are doing with this lift. Incoming freshman are not to attempt this lift until they are properly taught the technique here at Hopkins by Bill Starr)

Snatch Grip High Pulls: Five sets of three, again trying to handle at least 100 pounds more on your final set over what you power snatched for your last set

Overhead Press: Change the set and rep sequence like you did on the bench press. Until you get your form down, do five sets of five. An excellent formula to improve this lift is to do three sets of five as warm-ups, then select a work weight and do five sets of three. Follow these with one back-off set of eight. If you make all your sets, move the weight up five pounds the next week. Stay with the strict presses until you are able to handle 200 x 3, then you can add in some push presses. But the strict presses are more beneficial until you reach that strength level.

Baby Cows:Start doing three to five sets of thirty reps and if possible alternate the standing and seated calf machines.

Chin-ups: Do four sets of all you can do. Try to add at least one rep, total, to each workout and these will steadily move up.

Wednesday (Light Day)

Squats: Five sets of five, using 50 lbs less than you did on Monday or do Front Squats, three sets of five followed by three sets of heavier threes

Good Mornings: Four sets of eight. Remember you want to keep your top set of eight at 50% of your best squat

Incline Bench: Follow the guidelines set down for the bench press on Monday. Change the routine weekly but always look for a PR

Dips: One set without weight, then start adding resistance for three or four more sets. Do eights, fives and threes. In order for dips to help your other lifts, you have to move past 100 for reps

Beach Work: Do two or three sets for your triceps and biceps, but don?t get nuts on these for you are already doing lots for you upper arms and adding in too much will not help, but hurt. For the triceps: straight-arm pullover or pushdowns on the lat machine are good. Any type of curling is useful for the biceps and some reverse curls are beneficial for forearm development. Keep the reps high, twenties, fifteens, and never less than ten

Friday (Medium Day)

Squats: Three sets of five followed by two sets of threes and one back-off set of eight. Try to move your triple up five to ten pounds each week and come back the following Monday and do that same weight for five reps.

Hang Cleans: These are optional. If you think you need more work on your power clean form, do three or four sets of five before doing your shrugs. Always do these before shrugging.

Shrugs: Five to six sets of five. Alternate the Hawaiian kind with the ?in the rack? type, if possible

Bench Press:Four sets of eight followed by two sets of doubles

Close-grip Bench Press OR Overhead Press: Do NOT do both!! You can alternate these every other week. On the close-grips, do three or four sets of eight. On the overhead presses, do five sets of five

Beach Work: Optional. If you have some energy left over at this stage of the week, you can add in more curls, triceps or chins. But don?t overdo it or you will be shot for Monday.

ALL WORKOUTS:

Abdominal Work: Include ab work at every workout. In fact you can do something for your abs every day. Be sure to hit the high and low portions of your midsection every time. High reps are better than multiple sets of lower reps.

Stretching: Spend time stretching after each workout. It is also a good idea to start doing some stretching during the workout in-between sets.

Leg Machines: If you have them available, utilize the leg machines at least twice a week. Leg extension, leg curl and adductor for two sets of twenty.


Okies, primary goal is to get this program tweaked to be able to use the 4 day routine, and then the following week, taper it down to 3 days. Just due to my own personal schedule for the time being. Goals of this routine is for overall strength and size gains. I've run the Bill Starr advanced numerous times and gotten great gains.

Looking to bulk for the next year while maintaining between 12-14% bf right now I'm off, but have only run one cycle which was last winter (gram of test a week), so I will need to keep an eye on the diet a little bit which is in line right now. The other question is thoughts on where to start as far as weight. As I said, I'm currently on week 8 of the Bill Starr advanced. Weights I'm using after next week for 1 rep maxs:

Squat: 520
Incline Bench: 310
Pendlay: 335
Deads: 485
Push Press: 255

I'm going to have to mess around with my cleans (hang and power) to see what those are at for this routine, and I'll also be looking for my flat bench max. (wanted to work upper chest and delts a little more this last time around)

[TheSuaveOne]

Anyone?

[saiyanjin]

get rid of tuesday; i'd throw the chinsup and overhead press on monday, take out squat on wednesday throw in power snatch, snatch grip high pull, and babycows

[IliekFude]

Let me give this a good read thru when i am wide awake and can give it a quality analysis n ill hit ya back tomorrow bud.
I made it my default start page for now so ill get at ya. I dig critiquing routines.

[IliekFude]

Hopkins Football 2000 Summer Lifting: Upperclassmen
by Bill Starr

Monday (Heavy Day)
Squats 5 x 5; 1 x 8 (back-off set)
Bench Press: Change your routine every week. Always do three sets of five as warm-ups then do three sets of heavier triples, doubles or singles. Some weeks you might want to find a work weight and do it for 3-5 sets of five. Do one or two back-off sets of eight.
Back Work: Alternate deadlifts with power clean and clean high pullsevery other week. Change up the reps on the deadlifts each time you do them. Do five sets of five, two sets of five, followed by three sets of 3, or four sets of eight. Work five sets of five on the power cleans, then do four sets of three on the clean high pull. You should be doing fifty more pounds on the high pull on your very first set than you used for your last power clean and aim at using 100 more pounds on your final set.
Auxiliary Work: Incline Dumbbells: Change these around also. One week do three sets of twelve or fifteen, then another do two sets of twenty. Do NOT do any less than 10 reps however.

Tuesday (Light Day)
Power Snatches: Two sets of five, then four to five sets of three. As long as you are maintaining goof form, you can do extra sets but when the form gets sloppy, move on to the high pulls.
(Note from Coach Margraff??make sure you know what you are doing with this lift. Incoming freshman are not to attempt this lift until they are properly taught the technique here at Hopkins by Bill Starr)
Snatch Grip High Pulls: Five sets of three, again trying to handle at least 100 pounds more on your final set over what you power snatched for your last set
Overhead Press: Change the set and rep sequence like you did on the bench press. Until you get your form down, do five sets of five. An excellent formula to improve this lift is to do three sets of five as warm-ups, then select a work weight and do five sets of three. Follow these with one back-off set of eight. If you make all your sets, move the weight up five pounds the next week. Stay with the strict presses until you are able to handle 200 x 3, then you can add in some push presses. But the strict presses are more beneficial until you reach that strength level.
Baby Cows:Start doing three to five sets of thirty reps and if possible alternate the standing and seated calf machines.
Chin-ups: Do four sets of all you can do. Try to add at least one rep, total, to each workout and these will steadily move up.

Wednesday (Light Day)
Squats: Five sets of five, using 50 lbs less than you did on Monday or do Front Squats, three sets of five followed by three sets of heavier threes
Good Mornings: Four sets of eight. Remember you want to keep your top set of eight at 50% of your best squat
Incline Bench: Follow the guidelines set down for the bench press on Monday. Change the routine weekly but always look for a PR
Dips: One set without weight, then start adding resistance for three or four more sets. Do eights, fives and threes. In order for dips to help your other lifts, you have to move past 100 for reps
Beach Work: Do two or three sets for your triceps and biceps, but don?t get nuts on these for you are already doing lots for you upper arms and adding in too much will not help, but hurt. For the triceps: straight-arm pullover or pushdowns on the lat machine are good. Any type of curling is useful for the biceps and some reverse curls are beneficial for forearm development. Keep the reps high, twenties, fifteens, and never less than ten

Friday (Medium Day)
Squats: Three sets of five followed by two sets of threes and one back-off set of eight. Try to move your triple up five to ten pounds each week and come back the following Monday and do that same weight for five reps.
Hang Cleans: These are optional. If you think you need more work on your power clean form, do three or four sets of five before doing your shrugs. Always do these before shrugging.
Shrugs: Five to six sets of five. Alternate the Hawaiian kind with the ?in the rack? type, if possible
Bench Press:Four sets of eight followed by two sets of doubles
Close-grip Bench Press OR Overhead Press: Do NOT do both!! You can alternate these every other week. On the close-grips, do three or four sets of eight. On the overhead presses, do five sets of five
Beach Work: Optional. If you have some energy left over at this stage of the week, you can add in more curls, triceps or chins. But don?t overdo it or you will be shot for Monday.

ALL WORKOUTS:
Abdominal Work: Include ab work at every workout. In fact you can do something for your abs every day. Be sure to hit the high and low portions of your midsection every time. High reps are better than multiple sets of lower reps.
Stretching: Spend time stretching after each workout. It is also a good idea to start doing some stretching during the workout in-between sets.
Leg Machines: If you have them available, utilize the leg machines at least twice a week. Leg extension, leg curl and adductor for two sets of twenty.
*Ok well first thing that comes to mind is bulking doesnt always go hand in hand with strength training. Yr not gona gain as much size training for strength as if you trained strictly for hypertrophy. So if yr strictly looking to bodybuild id toss this routine and look into dog crap training.
That aside, im assuming yr after both so we'll look at this for both.

*Wow this routine has you squatting or deadlifting in one way or another (partially as a part of a clean or a straight out dead or a squat variation) every day you train... 4 days a week. I couldnt handle that for more than 3-4 weeks tops probly more like 2.

*Have you trained like that b4 and been able to sustain it, or at least adjust it so its sustainable without overtraining? What is his reasoning for so much low back work anyway?

*Abs, why 4 days a week? I would train abs with yr lowerbody/low back days only, 2 days a week and do something dif each day. For instance leg raises for lower abs / hip flexors one day and weighted situps for upper abs the other. 4 days of abs has no athletic value on top of all that other olympic / powerlifting imo whatsoever aside from adding to yr cns fatigue.

*Stretching, unless yr a bodybuilder - i wouldnt stretch during yr workouts id save it strictly for afterwards. Stretching has been shown, in some trials, to reduce maximum strength output immediately afterwards and possibly to increase injury potential when using max loads. So save it for after the wrkout.

*His methodology in general is conjugated periodization in disguise. Rotating your main movements is the definition of westside or eastern bloc style max effort training to avoid plateauing while still performing and progressing movements that contribute to the same muscle groups or activity u want to improve. Like rotate incline - flat - db - bb - floor and other presses as yr main movement for press day each week instead of just doing bb bench every week trying to progress and eventually stalling. So in short, that part i agree with. Rotation of main movements is key to continual progress, as is deloading when needed and specifically being able to realize WHEN to deload for yr body.

*This entire program is geared towards athletic overall development, not bulking or especially bodybuilding (unless you count his "beach muscle" segments) at all necessarily. Why are ya interested in a football preseason program for your bulk?

*I dont agree with all of his set in stone percents and statements like "In order for dips to help your other lifts, you have to move past 100 for reps". Like.. why is that so? Or where he tells you "always do 3 sets of 5 as a warmup". Why? lol... Warmup however your comfortable warming up man.

*Honestly ill just stop here because the more i read the more i get frustrated and conclude i dissagree with the entire routine.

------------

My suggestion is if you want to get stronger and bigger to contribute to being stronger (which is what im assuming you want because of the type of routine you chose here) is to simply decide what you want to get stronger at as far as a sport be it powerlifting - olympic lifting - foot ball etc and pick movements to improve the main aspects of that sport.

Then break yr sport down into muscular function and pick excercises to improve those functions and slowly implement them and gauge yr recovery abilities and work capacity and as it improves feel free to add or tweak as necessary. Also, id go right into 3 days a week if thats yr end goal. Why bother working into it?

Example = Football is 4 quarters worth of 10 to 20 second exertions of force and muscular endurance demonstrated in various forms depending on your played position. Linemen need maximum leg drive and pressing ability to fight off the pass rush but also agility to stay with their man and if they need to run block. So a lineman would need to be conditioned enough to perform those activities for 4 quarters for 10-20 seconds at a time with like 45 sec rest between plays and strengthened to perform the movements that allow them to perform their job. Pressing, Squatting, Core work, Agility etc. See what im sayin? Break it down and figure it out and implement it.

Training really is that simple, routines like this one you posted are written up for people who are too lazy to take control of their own training thats why their written the way they are, and lack explanations for the methodology. Such as the heavy bench day he has you doing singles doubles or triples on bench then later doing db bench for "no less than 10 reps". This is because he wants you db benching for hypertrophy and bb benching for strength and to avoid overtraining, but he doesnt mentiontion that or the fact that it doesnt have to be "no less than 10 reps" exactly or "x number of sets" exactly.

There is no cookie cutter routine for anyone past a certain point. Sure you can get away with it as a beginner, beginners grow from anything as long as they eat. But as your level of training increases and your athletic ability and ability to recruit fibers and exert maximal force increases, your training stimulus and needs require much more fine tuning to continue to improve based upon your specific body and sports requirements for success and excellence.

Hope that helped.

Keep it simple, get to know your body and design your own routine specific to your goals.

[Pan]

Fude pretty much got it in one post. That's a whole lot of volume. With the madcow 5x5 template you're doing minimal fluff and bear in mind that you're doing LESS work in three days than that routine. If you want to add another day to make it up to four days a week I'd always drop the overall volume from each session.

What that template seems to do is actually add MORE volume. Sure, someone highly conditioned to this type of workout may be able to cope, but you couldn't go into something like this and expect to actually make progress. That's the whole point of the madcow 5x5, and indeed strength training. there is no structure for improving each lift - it just looks more like a bodybuilder routine than a strength orientated program.

For something that will build strength AND includes exercises such as power cleans etc look at BiggT's log. In my opinion that's the ideal way to train. Get in the gym, do the work you need to - focussing on 2 to 4 exercises with low reps.

I don't know how football players organise their training, as in I don't know if they incorporate plyo work into their strength programs or if they have separate session for them, but I do notice that the routine is lacking in any explosive elements, sure you have the power snatches and whatnot, but there are no box jumps, depth jumps, single leg elements etc.

All that said, I could be entirely wrong depending on the individual in question. I know I couldn't make linear progress on a routine like that nor could a lot of people, but there may be the lucky few who can just get stronger no matter what they do, in which case arguing about what routine to do becomes a moot point. For everyone else progressive overload and beating your PR's consistently and deloading every 3-4 weeks is necessary

[TheSuaveOne]

*Ok well first thing that comes to mind is bulking doesnt always go hand in hand with strength training. Yr not gona gain as much size training for strength as if you trained strictly for hypertrophy. So if yr strictly looking to bodybuild id toss this routine and look into dog crap training.
That aside, im assuming yr after both so we'll look at this for both.

Good assumption, imo and through experience, I am able to put more weight on as I grow stronger (with proper caloric intake as part of the routine).


*Wow this routine has you squatting or deadlifting in one way or another (partially as a part of a clean or a straight out dead or a squat variation) every day you train... 4 days a week. I couldnt handle that for more than 3-4 weeks tops probly more like 2.

I've run variations of the Starr advanced 5x5 as well as DC Training for the last 2 years. I am currently wrapping up a Starr 5x5 where I am squating 3 times a week, so yes, I am used to it.


*Have you trained like that b4 and been able to sustain it, or at least adjust it so its sustainable without overtraining? What is his reasoning for so much low back work anyway?

See above.


*Abs, why 4 days a week? I would train abs with yr lowerbody/low back days only, 2 days a week and do something dif each day. For instance leg raises for lower abs / hip flexors one day and weighted situps for upper abs the other. 4 days of abs has no athletic value on top of all that other olympic / powerlifting imo whatsoever aside from adding to yr cns fatigue.

It's all about strengthening the core. Most of his programs include core work. I'm not surprised to see it here.


*Stretching, unless yr a bodybuilder - i wouldnt stretch during yr workouts id save it strictly for afterwards. Stretching has been shown, in some trials, to reduce maximum strength output immediately afterwards and possibly to increase injury potential when using max loads. So save it for after the wrkout.

I'm not a competitive lifter and lift with minimal gear (belt and wrist wraps at most), I have always found stretching during the workout to be helpful in addition to stretching after the workout. I'm not saying I take much time to do this, but simple stretches in between sets have always helped me.


*His methodology in general is conjugated periodization in disguise. Rotating your main movements is the definition of westside or eastern bloc style max effort training to avoid plateauing while still performing and progressing movements that contribute to the same muscle groups or activity u want to improve. Like rotate incline - flat - db - bb - floor and other presses as yr main movement for press day each week instead of just doing bb bench every week trying to progress and eventually stalling. So in short, that part i agree with. Rotation of main movements is key to continual progress, as is deloading when needed and specifically being able to realize WHEN to deload for yr body.

The deload isn't something I really worry about. My body tells me when it's time. What gets me is where to reset the weight to as I don't want to drop too low and lose progress I gained in the last go around, but at the same time I don't want to go too high and need to worry about stalling early.


*This entire program is geared towards athletic overall development, not bulking or especially bodybuilding (unless you count his "beach muscle" segments) at all necessarily. Why are ya interested in a football preseason program for your bulk?

I'm not a bodybuilder, I lift weights. My goals are always changing, so do my routines. Pre season football programs are used for bulking. I had a buddy who went to Michigan State to play football. He was given a diet plan and weight routine to follow in the off season before his freshman year camp started. He put on a good 15 pounds without losing a step and without using gear, and this was a kid who was all-state and knew (or so he thought) how to lift. It's something different to try, it's not like I'll be doing this routine the rest of my life.


*I dont agree with all of his set in stone percents and statements like "In order for dips to help your other lifts, you have to move past 100 for reps". Like.. why is that so? Or where he tells you "always do 3 sets of 5 as a warmup". Why? lol... Warmup however your comfortable warming up man.

I don't disagree with you here. I warm up to the point that the muscles are warmed up, II don't have a set warm up routine.


*Honestly ill just stop here because the more i read the more i get frustrated and conclude i dissagree with the entire routine.

That's ok, thanks for your time anyway.

[IliekFude]

That's ok, thanks for your time anyway.
No prob man, sure thing.
It honestly sounds like youve figured out to a good extent what you like and what seems to work for you anyway so yr advanced enough to be designing yr own stuff really man. Give it a shot like i suggested. Just decide what yr exact goal is and break it down and have at it.

What gets me is where to reset the weight to as I don't want to drop too low and lose progress I gained in the last go around, but at the same time I don't want to go too high and need to worry about stalling early.
Basically ya wana just back off the 90%+ of max work when ya deload. Take it back down to the 60-80% range and leave a rep or two in the tank on each set. Also a good time to get the bar off yr back n outta yr hands by switching to DB work for a week or two etc. Things like that. Like you said, you can feel it in yr body so you should be able to feel if yr deloading enough imo.
As far as losing progress, you wont lose progress unless its longer than 14-21 days (i think, roughly if i recall the science?) away from 90%+ work if yr talking about strength. As far as size goes, that can come back even years down the road with muscle memory etc so dont sweat a week or two deload bud. Rest up if ya need it, its the key to continually progressing. Otherwise yr gona hit the wall and/or get hurt trying to bust thru it.

I'm not a bodybuilder, I lift weights. My goals are always changing, so do my routines. It's something different to try, it's not like I'll be doing this routine the rest of my life.
No doubt, by nature it has to constantly change as yr level of fitness changes.
Post up a log tho regardless of what ya do man, be interesting to see how it works out for ya. Good luck.

[BiggT]

The program is the basic M-W-F- classic program that has been tweaked for someone who has been using it for a long time.

Your best bet is to use the MWF program and tweak it over time as you need and add in thin gs, etc. etc. and you'll get your own monster like this after a while.

It is Heavy Squats on Mon, Fronts on Wed, and Medium Squats on Fri.

Bench on Mon, Incline Tues, Light Bench on Fri

DL or Clean on Mon, GM on Wed, and optional hang cleand and then shrugs on Fri

Some comments on that: Starr doesn't advocate heavy GMs, they are 8 reps with room to spare. They aren't done for max weight like a lot of powerlifters do, so they're manageable.

You alternate DL and Power Clean with clean pulls weekly. The DLs are heavy, the cleans are never gonna be heavy for you compared to DLs, so that day won't kill you, the clean pulls are for some workload to keep the stimulus adequate.

The pressing is a lot for someone who is fairly strong. I'd put overheads on Wed and Incline or light Bench on Fri or I'd bag either inclines or overheads in favor of the other for periods.

The Tues day is LIGHT. It starts out as an extra day to work in LIGHT snatches, done quick more for recovery from heavy pulling on Mon. I wouldn't do any overhead work on this day. The rest is extra stuff that won't affect your other workouts much like chins and calf raises.

It looks like a lot on paper, but just read between the lines and see that it is the classic M-W-F program that has been modified over time to keep fostering progress. The way to make that 3 days is to cancel the Tues. workout, you don't need it in my opinion, unless you want to learn how to snatch. It is good to learn because when you start you have to use weenie weights, and you don't want to replace cleans or DLs with something so light and take away all that stimulus. Another reason is a lot of athletes do snatches light for speed and don't push them very heavy. The extra day just saves you time on the MWF workouts.

TSO, you're a big presser, you're gonna have some issues with a heavy incline in the middle like that. I would only train 2 heavy presses at a time, like do flat bench and either incline or overhead, or even alternate incline and OH weekly. People who can get away with inclining heavy on the middle day are beginners, you know when people first start their incline blows and isn't much more taxing than their overhead? That won't work for you (at least I doubt it would, it never worked for me).