Lower Inner Chest Exercises

[drdug27]

I do close grips. Im still laggin in the Lower inner chest....What other exercises do u guys do???

[Blut Wump]

Close grip presses are primarily a triceps exercise.

Note that there is no muscle corresponding to lower-inner chest. You have pectoralis major and pectoralis minor and that's your lot. Shape is a feature of two factors: size and insertion points. The former you can work to get a large chest; the latter you got from your parents and can't change without surgery.

You can work to emphasize upper and lower chest but not inner and outer.

[drdug27]

Close grip presses are primarily a triceps exercise.

Note that there is no muscle corresponding to lower-inner chest. You have pectoralis major and pectoralis minor and that's your lot. Shape is a feature of two factors: size and insertion points. The former you can work to get a large chest; the latter you got from your parents and can't change without surgery.

You can work to emphasize upper and lower chest but not inner and outer.

Cool.. i was under the impression close grips/dips would also hit the lower chest.

what exercises do u suggest to emphasize the lower pecs??

[KKAZ]

What about some decline cable flys with pinkies turned inward at the top of the movement???

[Stephen]

There are only a few exercises worth doing for chest development:

Bench Press
Weighted Dips

Everything else is a waste of time and energy.

[JG1]

There are only a few exercises worth doing for chest development:

Bench Press
Weighted Dips

Everything else is a waste of time and energy.


I agree with the dips....atleast for myself.

Bench press is a toughy though. A lot of people are front delt/tri pressers no matter how they position themselves, therefore making bench presses not a good choice for pec development.


It's so individual.

[JG1]

What about some decline cable flys with pinkies turned inward at the top of the movement???

I've done these and really liked them. Cable flyes in general, on a bench, really helped w/ my pec development.

[Stephen]

I agree with the dips....atleast for myself.

Bench press is a toughy though. A lot of people are front delt/tri pressers no matter how they position themselves, therefore making bench presses not a good choice for pec development.


It's so individual.

Well when I say "bench press" I include the dumbbell variation as well. If someone presses too much with their delts when using the barbell, then the dumbbells should remedy that issue (provided they use a neutral grip at the start of the movement).

Aside from those first starting out with weight training, I don't believe that any strength or size can be gained by doing exercises like flyes, cable crossovers, or pullovers.

[JG1]

Well when I say "bench press" I include the dumbbell variation as well. If someone presses too much with their delts when using the barbell, then the dumbbells should remedy that issue (provided they use a neutral grip at the start of the movement).



D-Bells are certainly a better choice, but again alot of people still get most of the work in there front delts (I'm one of these types of people). Chest out, shoulders blades tucked, doesn't matter. You'll get a better feel with the d-bells but for some, there are better movements to be done.



Aside from those first starting out with weight training, I don't believe that any strength or size can be gained by doing exercises like flyes, cable crossovers, or pullovers.

I respect you Stephen, but a big BS on this one. You certainly can further your develompent with Iso work, especialy with cables, and especialy like I said if you have a hard time feeling the muscle with compound movements.

I'm not gonna ruin this guys thread and get into all that though.

[saiyanjin]

i think incline cable flies at a 35 angle, incline dbells at a 35 angle, and pushups have helped my chest the most.

[saiyanjin]

agreed JG1. i have grown alot from those cable flies.

[IliekFude]

For pec development - in general (i havent found a way to isolate upper/lower yet, if you do let me know) - i find nothing beats varying inclines/declines of DB bench.

[JoeD]

bro you gotto use cable cross overs and make sure you take your pinky off the handles (that will ensure you really can focus on a good squeeze). Make sure your wrist is bent back at approximately 10-15 degrees, but no more! Finally the last step is to tilt your head back some and really lean back on your heels.Follow these steps and you will really isolate those lower inner chest muscle fibres!

[getjacked]

I respect you Stephen, but a big BS on this one. You certainly can further your develompent with Iso work, especialy with cables, and especialy like I said if you have a hard time feeling the muscle with compound movements.


yup i agree with you completely.

[JoeD]

i think the reason why people get injured in body building is cuz they try and take a compound movement and make it into an isolation movement... Dr. Siff explained in one of his books that there really is no such thing as an iso movment because it's kind of impossible. when you do a bicep curl you actually get your front delts invovled as well. just some food for thought.. I personally dont think you specifically target "lower inner" pec muscles

[Lumberjack5.0]

I personally dont think you specifically target "lower inner" pec muscles

Right. It's impossible to do so. Muscle fibers run from insertion to attachment, and the whole fiber (more accurately, the motor unit that contains a bundle of fibers) flexes 100%. There's no way to make a particular segment of a fiber fire moreso than another segment.

[JG1]

Right. It's impossible to do so. Muscle fibers run from insertion to attachment, and the whole fiber (more accurately, the motor unit that contains a bundle of fibers) flexes 100%. There's no way to make a particular segment of a fiber fire moreso than another segment.

Yep, chest will get bigger as a whole...well I guess you can target pec major vrs minor, but...

He's just gotta find exercises to bring his whole chest developmnent up and the lower inner will fill in.

[Gettinripped]

decline dumbbell flys work well for me and the lower pecs pump. i'm sure it's working the whole muscle fiber, but with the decline, i can really feel the lower pecs muscle throughout the motion.

[ChuckLee]

Close grip benches and dips make me feel my mid inner pecs burning like hell

[BiggT]

I'm with LJ and Joey D. I always see so many trainees wasting time worrying about nuances like this when they should be adding weight to the bar and eating and progressing. Nobody can change the shape of their muscles, they can develop them and then change their appearance through bodyfat manipulation though.

I also agree people get hurt trying to make compound lifts an iso movement. Like flaring the elbows to "isolate chest" on the bench. Bench will never isolate chest, so you might as well do it efficiently and correctly and safely.

My advice to the original poster is to just find a solid press or two and train it progressively over time and eat more calories than you burn and your whole chest will grow. Everyone's muscles have a different look when developed, you can't reshape what God gave you, you can only maximize it. If you actually could "spot develop" like that, every pro bodybuilder would have the same physique.

[KKAZ]

Well said BiggT!!!

[mr sinister]

Well when I say "bench press" I include the dumbbell variation as well. If someone presses too much with their delts when using the barbell, then the dumbbells should remedy that issue (provided they use a neutral grip at the start of the movement).

Aside from those first starting out with weight training, I don't believe that any strength or size can be gained by doing exercises like flyes, cable crossovers, or pullovers.

i agree imo they are for shaping the chest

[GTLifter]

they are for shaping the chest


you can't change the shape of a muscle

[Stephen]

You certainly can further your develompent with Iso work, especialy with cables, and especialy like I said if you have a hard time feeling the muscle with compound movements.

I guess I just don't understand then. Why does it really matter if one person has more of their delts or triceps involved when pressing? All of the muscle fibers in the chest, triceps, and delts will be highly stimulated with greater overload (much more than with iso movements). So while one person may press more with their chest while another presses more with their delts, the overall growth should be the same. The body grows the most from heavy compound lifts that work the body as a system. By honing in one a specific muscle group, all that is doing is making the exercise a non-systematic movement and greatly reduces overall fiber stimulation.

Exercises like flyes and cable crossovers wouldn't seem to be very efficient for maximum muscle stimulation because they remove so many other muscle groups from the movement and therefore limit the amount of overload you can use.

More weight = more muscle fiber stimulation = more growth

[Stephen]

you can't change the shape of a muscle

You beat me to it...

[JG1]

I'm not getting into it again.

[JG1]

So while one person may press more with their chest while another presses more with their delts, the overall growth should be the same.


it's not

[GTLifter]

Why does it really matter if one person has more of their delts or triceps involved when pressing?


you must think that using your hips/back to do BB curls will lead to big biceps.

[Stephen]

you're an idiot.


you must think that using your hips/back to do BB curls will lead to big biceps.

No, I think that doing heaving rowing, deads, and weighted chins will lead to bigger biceps.

[GTLifter]

Jim, love the articles and keep up the good work. I have to admit that I love powerlifting but have a guilty love for building mass. What I really need is to build a bigger chest. Any tips?

Tom, Gaylordsville, Conneticut

Tom,

Thanks for the compliments. I think we are all a little guilty of wanting to be bigger. It’s our nature! So no apologies needed.

As for building your chest, I think the pin pull is probably one of the best chest exercises out there. You are probably scratching your head, but let me explain:

The pin pull puts tremendous strain on the pec. Don’t believe me? Grab a training partner’s pec (make sure you get consent first) while they do them or perform a few reps while looking in a mirror. You won’t believe the contraction. If you have ever torn your pec, you know how much it hurts to pull. This alone shows how much pec is involved with the pin pull. And don’t forget that you can handle much more weight on the pin pull then the bench press. Bigger weights = Bigger muscles.

My advice? Get in the rack and tug.


sam logic as yours stephen and I hope you can understand why you are wrong....



The Magic of the Pin Pull (http://www.elitefts.com/documents/magic_pin_pull.htm)

[Stephen]

sam logic as yours stephen and I hope you can understand why you are wrong....



[url=http://www.elitefts.com/documents/magic_pin_pull.htm]

Now I'm really confused. Doesn't this pretty much back up what I was saying to begin with? With a pin pull, you are overloading much of your body. Since it's being worked as a system, and the chest is a major recepient of the stimulation, then it would be far more beneficial than an exercise like a fly. This just further verifies that heavy compound lifts trump iso exercises. What am I missing?

-The Idiot

[GTLifter]

That article is pure satire. In other words it was a joke written to make fun of people like you.

[Lumberjack5.0]

That article is pure satire. In other words it was a joke written to make fun of people like you.

You sure about that? I don't get that from what he wrote....I think he meant it.

EDIT: I say this because I know what he means about pulls and pec pain. My pecs get ridiculously sore when I really push my chins hard. There seems to be some muscle in there that just doesn't get stimulation the way it does when stabilizing me during a chin.

[GTLifter]

yes, that article has been around for awhile and is definitley satire...

also from that article...


The reason why I wrote this article was:

1: Dave and I spent about an hour laughing about the magic of the pin pull, so I wanted to share it with you.

2: Be careful what you believe; anyone can make a good argument for anything. It’s up to you to wade through the smoke and mirrors.

[Stephen]

That article is pure satire. In other words it was a joke written to make fun of people like you.

So at the end of the day, what is the point? That doing cable cross-overs truly can build a bigger chest than if you strictly did presses and dips? By the way, I enjoyed this quote of his at the end of the article:

"the next time you get caught up with doing 500 things per workout and having 30 different variations, it might be best to take a big step back and ask yourself an honest question; Why?"

[getjacked]

Now I'm really confused. Doesn't this pretty much back up what I was saying to begin with? With a pin pull, you are overloading much of your body. Since it's being worked as a system, and the chest is a major recepient of the stimulation, then it would be far more beneficial than an exercise like a fly. This just further verifies that heavy compound lifts trump iso exercises. What am I missing?

-The Idiot

the article is in jest, written by a elite lifter with 20+ years of lifting experience that is targetted towards opinions like yours. essentially, it's poking fun at the opinion you displayed here.

in my experience, the biggest, most muscular powerlifters have bodybuilding backgrounds or flat out train like bodybuilders. same with sm. there is nothing wrong with doing fly's.. in fact, most people who are not versed in training methods outside of the US do not know that fly's are used heavily by lots of great benchers in europe.

at the end of the day if all the minor accessorry "isolation" stuff was so worthless for LBM gains then nobody would ever do them. if a bodybuilders life is dependent on winning shows im sure he will find what is absolutely optimal for developing muscle. everybodys retort to this is.. "welllll, theyre on so much steroids they can do anything!".. yet even natural, actual truly natural bodybuilders all train on bodypart splits too.

[GTLifter]

So at the end of the day, what is the point? That doing cable cross-overs truly can build a bigger chest than if you strictly did presses and dips?

The point is that if you are a delt/tricep/lat bencher (like me) then you will have to do other things to build a big chest.

[JoeD]

You're taking what Jim is saying out of context. I spoke to him a few weeks ago about training and what he means is that you don't need 10 exercises per muscle group to build it up. As far as I know, he still uses the conjugate method. So in other words, he choses 1-2 big lifts per workout like you said to do, but he also rotates the exercise. So he has a lot more tools to build a big strong chest other than dips and close grips.

[JoeD]

t
at the end of the day if all the minor accessorry "isolation" stuff was so worthless for LBM gains then nobody would ever do them.

That's not always the case though. Louie asked Chuck one time why the hell he does so many lat pull downs, because it's been established there lat pull downs don't do much for your lifts... Chucks reply was "I just like them."

However, I have seen Phill Harrington essentially do a body builder workout when taking it easy and if you've seen him recently he looks like a body builder. So that would definitely prove one of your points about the powerlifters that resemeble BBers.

I think exercises like hamstring curls and things of that nature are pretty good for restoration and recovery techniques myself. though, i think the thread starter should be more concerned with the big lifts first

[getjacked]

You're taking what Jim is saying out of context. I spoke to him a few weeks ago about training and what he means is that you don't need 10 exercises per muscle group to build it up. As far as I know, he still uses the conjugate method. So in other words, he choses 1-2 big lifts per workout like you said to do, but he also rotates the exercise. So he has a lot more tools to build a big strong chest other than dips and close grips.

yes ive talked to jim too as well as other elite guys, and most people on EFS's opinion regarding stuff like this is.. if you want to look like a certain person, then do what they do and/or did. if you want to lift like someone does, then try your best to follow in their footsteps.

it's only a recent thing (due to the internet) that so many styles of training are put down by people who dont' walk the walk. it's only an internet thing that guys that have no muscle are trying to correct huge bodybuilders on their training methods, or guys who cant deadlift 550 trying to correct the form of guys who can pull 960+ (such as konstantin, read any youtube posts)

its ridiculous, and its the main reason why VERY few actual high level lifters of any sport post on the net. EFS doesn't count, because they are not in a open message board. most guys that are good stay away from the net because it's full of shit.

[JoeD]

The point is that if you are a delt/tricep/lat bencher (like me) then you will have to do other things to build a big chest.

Agree here too. My chest is so freakishly small compared to other muscles in my body.. Pressing movements just don't recruit much pec for me.

[Stephen]

The point is that if you are a delt/tricep/lat bencher (like me) then you will have to do other things to build a big chest.

Is it not true that squatting also gives you a larger upper body? Why would this happen? You're not targeting the arms specifically, so why would they grow? You're making it sound like your chest won't grow unless you hit it directly, and I'm saying that it isn't about targeting a muscle directly. It's about working the entire body systematically.

You might be isolating your chest more with flyes, but the overall impact on the body is greatly reduced because you have removed so many other muscles from the exercise (could someone with the opposing opinion address that please). Just because you feel more of a "burn" from an iso movement doesn't mean that it has done anythying in regards to size or strength gains. Heavy pressing and dips, regardless of whether or not your chest is as involved as you feel it should be, should provide more than enough stimulation.

[JoeD]

yes ive talked to jim too as well as other elite guys, and most people on EFS's opinion regarding stuff like this is.. if you want to look like a certain person, then do what they do and/or did. if you want to lift like someone does, then try your best to follow in their footsteps.

it's only a recent thing (due to the internet) that so many styles of training are put down by people who dont' walk the walk. it's only an internet thing that guys that have no muscle are trying to correct huge bodybuilders on their training methods, or guys who cant deadlift 550 trying to correct the form of guys who can pull 960+ (such as konstantin, read any youtube posts)

its ridiculous, and its the main reason why VERY few actual high level lifters of any sport post on the net. EFS doesn't count, because they are not in a open message board. most guys that are good stay away from the net because it's full of shit.

Agreed... It seems like Elite's take on training is a lot less complex and more K.I.S.S. than what they've learned at Westside.

You're dead on about the world class lifters as well. After an 1100 squat the other day someone said something about putting it on youtube--jokingly i think. the reply was like "why, so a 15 year old can tell everyone it's just cuz i'm steroids or using supportive gear?"

i dont blame any high level lifters for not wasting any of their time on the internet either.

[A L]

it's only a recent thing (due to the internet) that so many styles of training are put down by people who dont' walk the walk. it's only an internet thing that guys that have no muscle are trying to correct huge bodybuilders on their training methods, or guys who cant deadlift 550 trying to correct the form of guys who can pull 960+ (such as konstantin, read any youtube posts)



This is very true. I thing people forget that a BB's physique would get in the way of athletic performance in certain sports, hence why some strength guru's (rippetoe) never advocate any isolation movements. But having seen him in person a few times I wouldn't want to look like he does.

Same with a lot of elite PL's. I wouldn't want to look like them, and while my training in closer to thiers than a BB my diet is not.

No matter what any one wants to say it is typically those very new to strength training that think all isolation movements are a waste of time. They are so happy to finally be making progress doing compounds that they are blinded to the obvious. I was the same way for a while. When I read Starting Strength I dropped all direct arm movements and my arms shrunk. I am not saying i advocate the pump fests that some 185lb weaklings do week after week w/out any progress, but I do think having some direrct isolation work makes muscles bigger.

[JoeD]

This is very true. I thing people forget that a BB's physique would get in the way of athletic performance in certain sports, hence why some strength guru's (rippetoe) never advocate any isolation movements. But having seen him in person a few times I wouldn't want to look like he does.

Same with a lot of elite PL's. I wouldn't want to look like them, and while my training in closer to thiers than a BB my diet is not.

No matter what any one wants to say it is typically those very new to strength training that think all isolation movements are a waste of time. They are so happy to finally be making progress doing compounds that they are blinded to the obvious. I was the same way for a while. When I read Starting Strength I dropped all direct arm movements and my arms shrunk. I am not saying i advocate the pump fests that some 185lb weaklings do week after week w/out any progress, but I do think having some direrct isolation work makes muscles bigger.

I've never read rippetoe's stuff but it sounds like it's good for newbies and thats about it.

a) If getting muscular wasn't good for athletes why are the fastest men in the world 5'10'' 180 lbs and ripped? If being muscular is so bad how can 250 lb TEs run 4.5 forty times? That's just B/S. He is the only "guru" that i know of who would advocate muscle is bad in sports.

b) If I were to train a newbie I think I would have him drop all direct arm work also. Just because most newbies (including myself when I first start lifting) think they key to growth is doing 50 isolation exercises a week and neglecting the GRUELING exercises such as squatting and deadlifting.

I will agree with you though , isolation movements have their place in any sport I guess.

[Stephen]

I've never read rippetoe's stuff but it sounds like it's good for newbies and thats about it.

a) If getting muscular wasn't good for athletes why are the fastest men in the world 5'10'' 180 lbs and ripped? If being muscular is so bad how can 250 lb TEs run 4.5 forty times? That's just B/S. He is the only "guru" that i know of who would advocate muscle is bad in sports.

b) If I were to train a newbie I think I would have him drop all direct arm work also. Just because most newbies (including myself when I first start lifting) think they key to growth is doing 50 isolation exercises a week and neglecting the GRUELING exercises such as squatting and deadlifting.

I will agree with you though , isolation movements have their place in any sport I guess.

I don't think being muscular is a bad thing at all. I would assume that the reason that most of us lift is to increase our strength and hypertrophy, although at some point a lot of people will place the importance of one over the other. I think it's just a matter of us having different opinion on the the best way to get there.

[Stephen]

No matter what any one wants to say it is typically those very new to strength training that think all isolation movements are a waste of time. They are so happy to finally be making progress doing compounds that they are blinded to the obvious. I was the same way for a while. When I read Starting Strength I dropped all direct arm movements and my arms shrunk. I am not saying i advocate the pump fests that some 185lb weaklings do week after week w/out any progress, but I do think having some direrct isolation work makes muscles bigger.

So has your opinion changed since you posted this on the Elite board?

16-Oct-2007, 04:14 PM
"Lifts - NO ONE grows doing curls and kickbacks - period. People grow by Squatting, Deadlifting, Benching, Chins, and Rows... in that order. Period. Feed, Lift, Rest, Repeat."

[IliekFude]

Athletes dont need as much (or any) time on isolation shit but bodybuilders obviously do. Although i do believe a lack of bicep training is to blame for many bicep tears plaguing powerlifting.

[BiggT]

I think a lot advice on compound lifting v arm isolation gets twisted and misconstrued and just taken out of context a lot of times.

Like with direct arm work. It will obviously develop the arms further than not doing it. Sometimes a 160lb kid will want some secret routine to get 19" arms. Well, the fact of the matter is that you'll NEVER have 19" arms at 160lbs unless you're 4'10". Kids like that need to squat and deadlift and press so their bodies grow to be able to support a big arm measurement. It isn't that squatting trains their biceps somehow, it is just that people who are small would have their arm woes solved if they just made some progress and grew and trained their arms with something simple and basic like some curls or hammer curls as they grew. What I am saying is direct arm work is a no brainer, just add in something non-idiotic that doesn't consume your workouts and they will grow right on par with the rest of your body provided you are doing the other 95% of it right. Likewise, if a 275b guy with 20" arms who trains them directly stops doing so, they are gonna get at least slightly smaller. This shit is just common sense, lol.

Basically, my take is that you need a pretty big body if you want pretty big arms, and curls and kick backs aren't gonna give anybody a pretty big body, so worry about the important shit, add in some direct arm work, and watch your arms grow before your eyes.

[IliekFude]

Ill be dead honest here. I dont train my arms because i am a lazy sonofabitch. Their 19" with basically zero arm work but its all tricep admittedly.
Yr dead on with the part about -if you want big arms yr gona need a fairly big body- part biggt.

[Stephen]

Likewise, if a 275b guy with 20" arms who trains them directly stops doing so, they are gonna get at least slightly smaller. This shit is just common sense, lol.

Is it? This was posted by another forum member a few months ago:

The Effect of Supplemental Isolated Weight-Training Exercises on Upper-Arm Size and Upper-Body Strength

Human Performance Laboratory, Ball State University, Muncie, IN.
NSCA Conference Abstract (2000)

The researchers compared the effects of a weight training program on 5RM strength and arm circumference and divided the subjects into two groups. Group 1 performed four compound upper body exercises, while Group 2 used the same program but included biceps curls and triceps extensions.

The results showed that both groups significantly increased strength and arm size

However, the addition of direct arm training to group two produced no additional effect on strength or arm circumference after 10 weeks of training.

The additional localized training did not result in anything that the bigger compound exercises didn't provide.

[BiggT]

I don't care about a study, you'll see it in practice all the time, sometimes with weight training, doing it seeing it year after year after year is a lot more informative than a study performed on God knows who under God knows what conditions. I'm not being an ass and I agree with a lot of the points you have man, but after 16 years under the bar, a weight training "study" can blow me, lol.

I am not gonna entertain it because the quoted part of my post is what I have personally seen over the years. Also, if you want to be technical, the study is inapplicable to my post. I am referring to people who train arms directly, are huge, and then take out the direct arm work in the section you quoted. I can only imagine the "specimens" in that study.

for what it's worth, I do 4 sets of hammer curls once a week. I have 19.5" arms. Last year, I dropped the hammer curls for a few months and my arms were 18.5-18.75. i added them back and got some size. Most of my size I attribute to big lifts trained progressively over time, but as far as the post you quoted, my study is myself and others I have trained with over 16 years and I put more stock into that.




Is it? This was posted by another forum member a few months ago:

The Effect of Supplemental Isolated Weight-Training Exercises on Upper-Arm Size and Upper-Body Strength

Human Performance Laboratory, Ball State University, Muncie, IN.
NSCA Conference Abstract (2000)

The researchers compared the effects of a weight training program on 5RM strength and arm circumference and divided the subjects into two groups. Group 1 performed four compound upper body exercises, while Group 2 used the same program but included biceps curls and triceps extensions.

The results showed that both groups significantly increased strength and arm size

However, the addition of direct arm training to group two produced no additional effect on strength or arm circumference after 10 weeks of training.

The additional localized training did not result in anything that the bigger compound exercises didn't provide.

[Cynical Simian]

Is it? This was posted by another forum member a few months ago:

The Effect of Supplemental Isolated Weight-Training Exercises on Upper-Arm Size and Upper-Body Strength

Human Performance Laboratory, Ball State University, Muncie, IN.
NSCA Conference Abstract (2000)

The researchers compared the effects of a weight training program on 5RM strength and arm circumference and divided the subjects into two groups. Group 1 performed four compound upper body exercises, while Group 2 used the same program but included biceps curls and triceps extensions.

The results showed that both groups significantly increased strength and arm size

However, the addition of direct arm training to group two produced no additional effect on strength or arm circumference after 10 weeks of training.

The additional localized training did not result in anything that the bigger compound exercises didn't provide. Er, even if we grant that the study shows that P -> Q is false, that doesn't demonstrate that (or have any bearing on whether) -P -> -Q is false. :nerd:

[getjacked]

my study is myself and others I have trained with over 16 years and I put more stock into that.
some people will never understand this though

[saiyanjin]

well honestly the question to me is how advanced are these people that are training? If we are talking newer people, then yeah i believe the study. if we are talking advanced people then no, i dont believe the study. i know if my arm work is taken out my arms will shrink.

[Curious George]

Close grip presses are primarily a triceps exercise.

Note that there is no muscle corresponding to lower-inner chest. You have pectoralis major and pectoralis minor and that's your lot. Shape is a feature of two factors: size and insertion points. The former you can work to get a large chest; the latter you got from your parents and can't change without surgery.

You can work to emphasize upper and lower chest but not inner and outer.

Wow Blut. I couldn't have said it any better. You hit it on the head. You can't change insertion points or shape. You are given what you are given. I was given charm, grace and a complete lack of height.

When I see people doing endless sets of chest with 10 sets of flat dumbell, 10 sets of flat barbell, 10 sets of inclines, 10 sets of declines and flys, I think about how I wasted my time doing the same thing in my precocious youth instead of spending my time doing cleans, squats, presses, chins, deads and explosive movements.

Does anybody remember Larry Scott and his "Scott curls?" He had a picture of his biceps BEFORE he started doing them and they were not too full toward the elbow...He then claimed his SCOTT curls changed the shape of his biceps.

The funny thing is, when you look at the pictures, picture one he had his fist facing his body, in picture 2 he had his wrists rotated 90 degrees toward the front of his body, which gave the appearance of a full bicep that had no space between it and the elbow.

[Stephen]

I do 4 sets of hammer curls once a week. I have 19.5" arms. Last year, I dropped the hammer curls for a few months and my arms were 18.5-18.75. i added them back and got some size.

Okay, so let me ask you this question. And I'm not being condescending or a smart ass…I seriously want to understand because I'm apparently just not getting it.

You said that you do 4 sets of hammer curls each week. I don't know what weight you use on those, but you seem like more of an advanced lifter, so I'll assume that you can do somewhere in the range of 85 or 90-pound dumbbells for your sets (maybe more?). Hammer curls focus mainly on the brachialis muscles and some on the biceps. I know that you do the big lifts like deads, bent-over rows, and chins which hammer on the forearms mercilessly and stress the biceps as well. So how exactly do hammer curls help your arms grow when the muscular stress caused by them is so much less than with those other lifts?

[A L]

So has your opinion changed since you posted this on the Elite board?

16-Oct-2007, 04:14 PM
"Lifts - NO ONE grows doing curls and kickbacks - period. People grow by Squatting, Deadlifting, Benching, Chins, and Rows... in that order. Period. Feed, Lift, Rest, Repeat."

Yes, I have had some opinion changes since Oct of 2007. You will as well as your training progresses IMO.

Tony is dead on. Don't get lost in iso work, but neglect it and you will have smaller arms, etc.

[GTLifter]

When doing heavy rows if you are using your biceps as the primary mover you're doing it wrong. That said they still stimulate the biceps to an extend but doing curls uses the biceps as the prime mover which means they are stimulated more.

[GTLifter]

Honestly this entire thread is making me :rofl: Stephen seems to think that isolation movements are not needed to get swole yet he has a picture of some dude, who I assume is him, doing curls as his AV.

[JoeD]

Honestly this entire thread is making me :rofl: Stephen seems to think that isolation movements are not needed to get swole yet he has a picture of some dude, who I assume is him, doing curls as his AV.

lol, i didnt even realize that!! i actually got a good audible LOL

[BiggT]

Okay, so let me ask you this question. And I'm not being condescending or a smart ass…I seriously want to understand because I'm apparently just not getting it.

You said that you do 4 sets of hammer curls each week. I don't know what weight you use on those, but you seem like more of an advanced lifter, so I'll assume that you can do somewhere in the range of 85 or 90-pound dumbbells for your sets (maybe more?). Hammer curls focus mainly on the brachialis muscles and some on the biceps. I know that you do the big lifts like deads, bent-over rows, and chins which hammer on the forearms mercilessly and stress the biceps as well. So how exactly do hammer curls help your arms grow when the muscular stress caused by them is so much less than with those other lifts?

You're right that probably 98% of my training are deads, bent rows, squats, cleans, flat and incline bench etc etc. I do attribute them to most of my arm size and overall size for that matter. On Hammer curls, I do them pretty strict, 3-4x 8-12 with 65lb d-bells (I used the 90s once in a wet dream, lol).

Yes, the overall stimulus is less, but it isn't like curling soup cans either. It is still workload added, thus stimulus added.

I agree with you that most of the stimulus is from big lifts, but the added extra work plays a role. If I just went with what caused the most overall stimulus, I'd just do nothing but deadlifts (my best lift by far) and nothing else because the stimulus can't compare. I can't clean anywhere near what I DL, so why do them? I can't push press anywhere near what I bench, so why do them? You see what I am saying. Things like curls or tate presses aren't a big bang for your buck movement, but the extra workload they can apply to an area does provide stimulus and cause a response from the body.

Thats about the best way I can explain it. Most of my arm size is from getting good at big lifts, but adding in a little bit of a direct stimulus does show. I can't match it up with studies and my background isn't in science, so I can't make it sound dogmatic, but in practice it is just how it goes.

Basically, when I tell people not to even bother with arm work, it is because they are guys who are 6' tall and 165lbs. They need the overall stimulus of big lifts to grow a big body, arm work is just an afterthought.

P.S.

I just noticed you're curling in your avatar!

[A L]

I'm apparently just not getting it.



No, you don't want to get it. Look at Tony's avatar. Does he look like he needs help on getting big arms? Why does EVERY BB do direct arm work? B/C it is a waste of time?????

Stephen, you better have some seriously huge arms to be arguing this so adamantly.

[Stephen]

Honestly this entire thread is making me :rofl: Stephen seems to think that isolation movements are not needed to get swole yet he has a picture of some dude, who I assume is him, doing curls as his AV.

Yes, that is a photo of me from about 18 months ago. It's the only AV I have available right now because it's not often that I have anyone photographing me in the gym. That photo was taken for a magazine who did a story on me for going from nearly 300 pounds of total lard-ass into what I am now.

I will still do curls sometimes just to keep my biceps loose for deads and rows, although back then I would do straight bar curls every week. I haven't done direct arm work (aside from warm-ups) in about 9 months, and my arms are still getting bigger. As for rowing, your biceps are much more involved when you use an underhand grip with the barbell, or if you're doing dumbbell rows.

[GTLifter]

AL, I'm pretty sure that's him in his AV so he is no Valentino.

[GTLifter]

As for rowing, your biceps are much more involved when you use an underhand grip with the barbell, or if you're doing dumbbell rows.

Not necessarily. I do row to get a thicker/bigger back and my back strength is at the point that if I try to pull with my biceps I won't be able to use enough weight to stimulate my back.

[Stephen]

No, you don't want to get it. Look at Tony's avatar. Does he look like he needs help on getting big arms? Why does EVERY BB do direct arm work? B/C it is a waste of time?????

Stephen, you better have some seriously huge arms to be arguing this so adamantly.

AL, I'm not arguing with BiggT. I'm just trying to understand where he's coming from. It's because of his arm size that I am asking him these questions. Like I said, maybe he can show me whatever it is that I'm just not getting.

I have never measured my arm size in inches, but you would definitely notice them from across the street.

[Stephen]

No, you don't want to get it. Look at Tony's avatar. Does he look like he needs help on getting big arms? Why does EVERY BB do direct arm work? B/C it is a waste of time?????

Stephen, you better have some seriously huge arms to be arguing this so adamantly.

One other thing AL. While you're acting like my opinions are so off the wall that only an idiot could think that way, let me share a more recent follow-up to your previous post over on Elite. This one is from December, and I'm sure that you didn't suddently change your opinion in January. This means that you must have been training without direct arm work for quite some time, otherwise you wouldn't have been so adamant in your position. What do your arms measure?


Originally Posted by Elementality
Hey, I was just wondering if you could explain the importance of this order. Quote "Squatting, Deadlifting, Benching, Chins, and Rows... in that order". Do you mean in this order as if ranking them in their significance of developing muscle growth, or do you mean this as a schedule of which workout to do first, then second, then third etc.. while you're at the gym. Like, the first thing you should do when u walk in the gym and warm up is squat, then deadlift, then bench, then chins, and finish the workout with rows.

Response by al420 (A L)
12-Dec-2007, 02:33 PM
I am merely stating that these are the only needed lifts. Curls literally are for girls.

[GTLifter]

Stephen, AL's previous posts from months ago have little validity in this discussion. Multiple people, who have years of lifting experience, have told you time and time again that isolation movements have their place in a training plan.

[rmexico]

There's an easy test to see who's right: Do curls and triceps extensions with just one arm for a month or two and see what happens.

In my experience, isolation exercises work. In HS, I spent a long time on crutches, and my injured leg atrophied. IIRC, my right leg was 1.5" smaller in circumference than my left leg. After doing isolation work like leg extensions and leg curls with just my bad leg for a few months, my legs were equal size. Actually, my bad leg actually got a little bigger than my good leg lol.

[Stephen]

Stephen, AL's previous posts from months ago have little validity in this discussion. Multiple people, who have years of lifting experience, have told you time and time again that isolation movements have their place in a training plan.

The crux of my issue with AL was that he was acting as if I was insane to hold the opinion that I did, when he had the very same position just a few months ago. But aside form that, it also holds a lot of value in this discussion. If AL had been training without direct arm work for quite some time (as was implied by the vehemence of his position in those posts), then his current measurements would closely reflect the benefits (or lack thereof) of that type of training. As of December his position was clear that direct arm work was unecessary. I don't know what month his position changed, but his current arm size would be mostly a result of doing only systematic compound lifts. It would of course be nice to know how long AL went without training his arms directly.

I've mentioned this before, but the guy that I occasionally train with has the biggest arms that I have ever seen in person. He is 39 and has been lifting since he joined the military out of high school. He has told me that he would do arm on work very rare occasions in the past, and he hasn't bothered with it at all in about 5 years. He credits his arm size mostly to heavily weighted chins.

[JoeD]

exactly stephen. The point is a 5'11'' 150 twig would get bigger arms by eating big and lifting the big compound lifts. but someone who squats 500, deadlifts 600, and benches 400 lbs is not going to make his arms grow by collectively adding 30 total lbs to his big 3 every couple months. Where as the 150 lb lb who collectively adds 200 lbs to his big 3 every few months certainly would. the big guy likely would have to add direct arm work with a good amount of frequency and sets

[getjacked]

I've mentioned this before, but the guy that I occasionally train with has the biggest arms that I have ever seen in person. He is 39 and has been lifting since he joined the military out of high school. He has told me that he would do arm on work very rare occasions in the past, and he hasn't bothered with it at all in about 5 years. He credits his arm size mostly to heavily weighted chins.
so whats the logic between you asking us to care about your single anecdote of one person when the collective biggest humans on earth (bodybuilders) all do isolation work?

[GTLifter]

so whats the logic between you asking us to care about your single anecdote of one person when the collective biggest humans on earth (bodybuilders) all do isolation work?

:werd:

I guess Cutler, Coleman, etc should all stop doing isolation work if they really want to get big.

[A L]

One other thing AL. While you're acting like my opinions are so off the wall that only an idiot could think that way, let me share a more recent follow-up to your previous post over on Elite. This one is from December, and I'm sure that you didn't suddently change your opinion in January. This means that you must have been training without direct arm work for quite some time, otherwise you wouldn't have been so adamant in your position. What do your arms measure?


Originally Posted by Elementality
Hey, I was just wondering if you could explain the importance of this order. Quote "Squatting, Deadlifting, Benching, Chins, and Rows... in that order". Do you mean in this order as if ranking them in their significance of developing muscle growth, or do you mean this as a schedule of which workout to do first, then second, then third etc.. while you're at the gym. Like, the first thing you should do when u walk in the gym and warm up is squat, then deadlift, then bench, then chins, and finish the workout with rows.

Response by al420 (A L)
12-Dec-2007, 02:33 PM
I am merely stating that these are the only needed lifts. Curls literally are for girls.

I reccomend the same thing to all newbies - compounds only. I am not a newbie.


Stephen, AL's previous posts from months ago have little validity in this discussion. Multiple people, who have years of lifting experience, have told you time and time again that isolation movements have their place in a training plan.

Leve him alone - this is the closest to a stalker as I may ever have.

:wavey:


The crux of my issue with AL was that he was acting as if I was insane to hold the opinion that I did, when he had the very same position just a few months ago. But aside form that, it also holds a lot of value in this discussion. If AL had been training without direct arm work for quite some time (as was implied by the vehemence of his position in those posts), then his current measurements would closely reflect the benefits (or lack thereof) of that type of training. As of December his position was clear that direct arm work was unecessary. I don't know what month his position changed, but his current arm size would be mostly a result of doing only systematic compound lifts. It would of course be nice to know how long AL went without training his arms directly.

I've mentioned this before, but the guy that I occasionally train with has the biggest arms that I have ever seen in person. He is 39 and has been lifting since he joined the military out of high school. He has told me that he would do arm on work very rare occasions in the past, and he hasn't bothered with it at all in about 5 years. He credits his arm size mostly to heavily weighted chins.


For those new to training, yes.

[Nick]

Keep in mind abercrombie cutoffs worn 2 sizes too small, with a strategically placed crooked hat, will add an inch to your arm circumference overnight (and save us all a lot of energy).

[A L]

Keep in mind abercrombie cutoffs worn 2 sizes too small, with a strategically placed crooked hat, will add an inch to your arm circumference overnight (and save us all a lot of energy).

You forgot about a poped collar. It is required.

[Lumberjack5.0]

You forgot about a poped collar. It is required.
I think it's the hat more than the collar....


http://amnestyinternational.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/pope.jpg

[getjacked]

this is the only guy allowed to pop collar

http://atlargenutrition.com/images/articles/pwochuck.jpg

[A L]

this is the only guy allowed to pop collar

http://atlargenutrition.com/images/articles/pwochuck.jpg

But how much can he curl?

[GTLifter]

Chuck V doesn't pop his collar, his collar is afraid of his traps.

[IliekFude]

truths

[TheSuaveOne]

ROFL. And the debate continues. Just to throw in. I haven't worked much direct arm work in the last 7 weeks (I'm in week 7 of a Bill Starr routine)...and guess what? My arms are shrinking at the same time I am gaining weight. Doh. I wonder if this might jut be that I am doing less arm work than I was before i started this rotation?

Nah, couldn't be...la

[bluetwistedsteel]

There are only a few exercises worth doing for chest development:

Bench Press
Weighted Dips

Everything else is a waste of time and energy.

I would disagree. I never flat bench and very rarely do weighted dips and my chest is fairly well developed. Definitely haven't been "wasting my time" by doing incline DB's and fly's.

[bluetwistedsteel]

i agree imo they are for shaping the chest

What does "shaping the chest" mean????? I've heard people say this before and have never understood what it means. For the most part the shape is genetic - from there it's either growing or shrinking or staying the same. I don't think you can "shape" you chest by varying the movement though.

[Stephen]

I would disagree. I never flat bench and very rarely do weighted dips and my chest is fairly well developed. Definitely haven't been "wasting my time" by doing incline DB's and fly's.

If you never flat bench and rarely do wqeighted dips, how do you know that they wouldn't have made your chest larger than what it is now? What exercises are you doing?

[bluetwistedsteel]

If you never flat bench and rarely do wqeighted dips, how do you know that they wouldn't have made your chest larger than what it is now? What exercises are you doing?

I should have been more specific. I haven't flat benched in a long time due to a shoulde injury and now (shouldn't even say now because NOW I'm recovering from a broken collar bone - getting old and brittle sucks) I do incline DB's and incline fly's along with pullovers and cable crossovers. I just really haven't noticed that I got less chest development when I switched to incline. I think if your chest is engaged it will develop. IMO load is way more important than angle of attack.

[Stephen]

IMO load is way more important than angle of attack.

I couldn't agree more. That's why the flat bench and dips are so superior. They allow for the greatest overload, and they are two of the best compound movements for the upper body.

[nObu]

Shape:
I found theres only one way to 'shape' your chest, and that's to lower your bodyfat levels. Chest shape is genetic. Sometimes if you carry fat deposits in your lower chest it can take away from it's shape and illusion of size. What your bf%? When I went down to 10% -ish my chest (amoungst other parts) looked 100% better.

Form:
Was wondering if you had over-developed tri's and delts. for the longest time I had a lagging chest (7 years) I had to go back to basics and learn to connect my mind and muscle. I spent years worrying about poundages that I wasn't really stimulating the targeted fibres correctly. Perhaps your form for your anatomy is off. Everyones body
is built slightly different, you need to find what works for you.

I had a thread on here month ago about clavicle presses (to the neck) I have recently incorporated it into my routine with good success.

Remember that in BB you use your mind just as much as your body, if not more.

[IliekFude]

ROFL. And the debate continues. Just to throw in. I haven't worked much direct arm work in the last 7 weeks (I'm in week 7 of a Bill Starr routine)...and guess what? My arms are shrinking at the same time I am gaining weight. Doh. I wonder if this might jut be that I am doing less arm work than I was before i started this rotation?

Nah, couldn't be...la

Ya bro, yr arms will def shrink from not doing direct work. Especially if yr used to doing high-rep direct work. Its called sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (carrying around a perpetual liquid pump). Dont sweat it, unless you want the size and feel naked without it. Then do some hypertrophy specific arm work when ya can fit it in. No bigs.
I think we talked about this b4.
I have pretty much non-existant biceps, look at my pics in my log. But i can curl the 70s+ for sets of 10 because my biceps are strong from indirect stimulation from everything else i do. So dont worry about losing strength.

[Biter]

Back a few months ago, I was forced to drop direct arm work due to a pinched ulnar nerve. I could still bench, but I had to use a wider grip. I did bench and deadlift almost exclusively for awhile.

My arms shrunk a half an inch. I definitely put on muscle overall, and lost some weight.

Last week, I started throwing in some arnold presses since I got clearance from my doctor to do some direct arm work. Next week I throw in close grip bench, and some barbell curls. I'll post up the results in a month.

[vancouverrules]

nd my arms shrunk. I am not saying i advocate the pump fests that some 185lb weaklings do week after week w/out any progress, but I do think having some direrct isolation work makes muscles bigger.

You must have meant 158-lb. weaklings right? In boxing and to some extent in bodybuilding, if you go by weight classes, 175 lb. and above is considered "light heavyweight." In NFL football half the db's and WR's are at 185 lbs. (weaklings?)

185 lbs is weak for a 6'2" bouncer... or a linebacker.

[GTLifter]

WR's are at 185 lbs

I've never met a WR I would consider strong.

[Nate]

I've never met a WR I would consider strong.

when you say strong, do you only mean absolute strength? because any WR playing at a high level would surely possess a very high level of explosive strength & relative strength.

[getjacked]

when you say strong, do you only mean absolute strength? because any WR playing at a high level would surely possess a very high level of explosive strength & relative strength.

yes thats all GTLifter is talking about is absolute.

[rmexico]

I've never met a WR I would consider strong.

IIRC, Joey Galloway could bench and clean over 400 lbs at OSU. That's not too shabby.

[GTLifter]

IIRC, Joey Galloway could bench and clean over 400 lbs at OSU. That's not too shabby.

I would consider that WR strong since he is probably sub 200lbs and over 6' tall. I was saying I have never met a WR I consider strong and that includes being around D-1 ball players.



when you say strong, do you only mean absolute strength? because any WR playing at a high level would surely possess a very high level of explosive strength & relative strength.


Absolute I guess as in their big 3.

[Biter]

I'd like to have seen David Boston's lift totals when he was all loaded up like he was.

[vancouverrules]

David Boston is more like a really fast TE :)

At 240 lbs he doesn't fall into the 185 lb bracket anyway.

I'm just trying to give props to (i) athletes; (ii) people who are athletic; (iii) short people. I am two of the above. Hence I resent the 185-lb. weakling comment, but then again, I can deal with it. There is more to life (for me at least) than breaking 200 lbs. I look like crap at 200 lbs.

There are more than a few RB's and world class 100 metre sprinters who clock in at 185 lbs. also. Some of them squat tremendous amounts so maybe we should agree that you can be 185 lb. and "strong".

[canecorso]

I have to chime in here, I have read the entire post and everyone is entitled to their opinion. IMO everyones body reacts differently, my delts and arms a very large but my chest lags, is it because I don't know how to lift or is it because I don't go heavy, nope to the above, my PR for incline bench is 315x4. That was last week. I hit my chest very hard. It's genetics. IMO. When I am pumped my chest looks pretty solid. It's when I am not pumped it seems to lag.
As for someone stating dips and bench are the best....maybe it is for THEM not all. just my take on the situation.