O/T War (posted 04-01-03)

[archive_therealj]

Just want my American friends here to know where my heart is. Many of you in the U.S probably haven't seen this video, everyone in Canada I'm sure has. Don Cherry's views reflect very strongly my own, to be honest I'm embarressed as a Canadian everytime I watch CNN...

http://www.cbc.ca/clips/ram-lo/coach030322.ram

[This message was edited by Mr. Nobody on 07-27-06 at 03:46 PM.]

[gluteusmaximus]

Normaly I find Don Cherry kind of bothersome, but I really, really respected him for his opinion about the war / supporting the US.

Thank you.

GM

[archive_Mr.Meat]

Wish I had an opinion, well I do, but I don't think I know enought...Currently I have no TV or phone...The only stuff I know about is what trickals(sp) through the AS boards...but what I do know is that Saddam needs to be removed from power and shot.

Oh..ya the link dosent work on these junk-ass school computers...

"Cause there is nothing worst then a man on an ether binge"

	ASS Nelson Montana

[The Thing]

I've liked Don Cherry since his time in Colorado, and now I think I like him even more. I really find it refreshing when someone actually states what they believe rather than spouting all of the standard political correctness BS.

The Thing

[Twiggy]

Funny, I'm embarrassed as an American every time I watch CNN. (which isn't very often) :P

I know this is a powder-keg topic, and don't want to debase anybody's opinion, but I personally am not convinced that the war is needed.

I don't think there's a good guy in this conflict. The weapons evidence against Iraq is shaky at best, and much of it has been found to be inaccurate (even forged and plagiarized)

On the other hand, Saddam is a ruthless despot, and should not be in power. His actions agains the Kurds in his own country are appalling.

This is not a black & white, with us or against us issue. Polarizing it into good vs evil does a disservice to everyone concerned (IMO.) This one shouldn't be dumbed down.

This week's Onion has a great piece that raises some powerful points... (& is damn funny as well) I'm posting it below for y'all's perusal... Don't take this as an attack, just another viewpoint... There's got to be a middle ground here.

-Twiggy

http://www.theonion.com/onion3912/i_should_not_be.html

As Americans, we have a right to question our government and its actions. However, while there is a time to criticize, there is also a time to follow in complacent silence. And that time is now.



It's one thing to question our leaders in the days leading up to a war. But it is another thing entirely to do it during a war. Once the blood of young men starts to spill, it is our duty as citizens not to challenge those responsible for spilling that blood. We must remove the boxing gloves and put on the kid gloves. That is why, in this moment of crisis, I should not be allowed to say the following things about America:



Why do we purport to be fighting in the name of liberating the Iraqi people when we have no interest in violations of human rights—as evidenced by our habit of looking the other way when they occur in China, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Syria, Burma, Libya, and countless other countries? Why, of all the brutal regimes that regularly violate human rights, do we only intervene militarily in Iraq? Because the violation of human rights is not our true interest here. We just say it is as a convenient means of manipulating world opinion and making our cause seem more just.



That is exactly the sort of thing I should not say right now.



This also is not the time to ask whether diplomacy was ever given a chance. Or why, for the last 10 years, Iraq has been our sworn archenemy, when during the 15 years preceding it we traded freely in armaments and military aircraft with the evil and despotic Saddam Hussein. This is the kind of question that, while utterly valid, should not be posed right now.



And I certainly will not point out our rapid loss of interest in the establishment of democracy in Afghanistan once our fighting in that country was over. We sure got out of that place in a hurry once it became clear that the problems were too complex to solve with cruise missiles.



That sort of remark will simply have to wait until our boys are safely back home.



Here's another question I won't ask right now: Could this entire situation have been avoided in the early 1990s had then-U.S. ambassador to Iraq April Glaspie not been given sub rosa instructions by the Bush Administration to soft-pedal a cruel dictator? Such a question would be tantamount to sedition while our country engages in bloody conflict. Just think how hurtful that would be to our military morale. I know I couldn't fight a war knowing that was the talk back home.



Is this, then, the appropriate time for me to ask if Operation Iraqi Freedom is an elaborate double-blind, sleight-of-hand misdirection ploy to con us out of inconvenient civil rights through Patriot Acts I and II? Should I wonder whether this war is an elaborate means of distracting the country while its economy bucks and lurches toward the brink of a full-blown depression? No and no.



True patriots know that a price of freedom is periodic submission to the will of our leaders—especially when the liberties granted us by the Constitution are at stake. What good is our right to free speech if our soldiers are too demoralized to defend that right, thanks to disparaging remarks made about their commander-in-chief by the Dixie Chicks?



When the Founding Fathers authored the Constitution that sets forth our nation's guiding principles, they made certain to guarantee us individual rights and freedoms. How dare we selfishly lay claim to those liberties at the very moment when our nation is in crisis, when it needs us to be our most selfless? We shame the memory of Thomas Jefferson by daring to mention Bush's outright lies about satellite photos that supposedly prove Iraq is developing nuclear weapons.



At this difficult time, President Bush needs my support. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld needs my support. General Tommy Franks needs my support. It is not my function as a citizen in a participatory democracy to question our leaders. And to exercise my constitutional right—nay, duty—to do so would be un-American.

[Corleone]

I found this amusing.



Hold on, my liver just stopped.......ok there it goes again.

[EngiCream]

I don't know how that guy on the left kept his composure throughout the entire talk.

That other guy and his whole blind-faith-support argument is ridiculous...how could you actually believe that? It's not the support part that bothers me as much as the whole blind faith thing does...the guy equated the support of the USA to the support of a friend in a bar fight!...that Canada should support the USA just because they're friends...oh yeah, great policy!

[archive_Ulter]

I agree blind faith is dangerous. But I think this came down to do you believe the evidence we've presented, most of which we'll never see, or don't you. The US position since 9/11 is and will be that if we perceive any country as supporting or harboring terrorists we will take action against them. If you believe the evidence then there's no reason to not support the US. And like DC said, the US wasn't looking for a pledge of anything other than support. The Canadian government chose not to do that. End of story. We move on and forget it.

[archive_Bjaarki]

I was kind of hoping we'd avoid this topic here. I, for one, can't parse all the information, and can't see the situation very clearly because of past associations, so I'm taking a skeptical, wait-and-see attitude toward the whole thing.

Part of my problem is I've seen this all before. All of it. It's pretty scarey. The trumped-up justifications for war. The unilateral action despite international condemnation. The pledges to make the world safe for democracy. The promise of quick victory. The faith in superior weapons technology. The emphasis on tactical and strategic air. The incremental buildup of troops. The earnest intention to avoid collateral damage. The arrogant Secretary of Defense with a business background. Even the over-involved "hands-on" president from Texas.

Then ... The realization that this will not be short, and will be a hell of a lot harder than we'd anticiapted. The "targetting errors." The dead Marines. The dead civilians. The angry press, and even angrier SecDef. The growing anxiety that we got in, but we can't get out.

Now we call this Operation Iraqi Freedom. Back in the day we called it VietNam.

I reeeeeeally hope I'm wrong about this. I hope we're not on the wrong side, I hope this ends quickly and successfully. But I won't be a bit surprised if lingers interminably.

Be brave and charitable, brothers.

Bjaarki

... Then, do what you have to do.

[Fukkenshredded]

Its interesting how everone keeps demanding more solid physical evidence of the weapons of mass destruction.

Saddam keeps his intelligence on a need to know basis. We have intelligence officers in Iraq, who are presumably unknown to Saddam. Some of them know of the whereabouts of these weapons.

Now, if we publicly announce specific caches, Saddam knows who the only possible sources of that info would be, and presto, those guys die.

Ulter is right about the simplicity of the position of aggression. You harbor terrorists, you either expel them all and disarm, or become a military target.

Simple.

Interesting all the criticism about how we were supposed to connect the dots and avooid 9/11.

Imagine if on 9/10 we would have arrested nineteen Saudis and claimed they intended to commit these acts.

You think you are seeing protests now...

So we have connected some dots and are disarming the threat, as well as demonstrating to the world that there are CONSEQUENCES for funding anti American terrorism.

Also, this idea that more time should have been given to the inspectors is ludicrous. Knowing that Saddam has several thousand liters of, say, Anthrax (and other more virulent chem/bios), and given that he has the capability to produce more, all he needed to do was string out the inspections long enough to double his stash. then, in a grand gesture of capitulation, he would simply offer up the initial stash for public destruction, as well as his facility.

Nobody would be able to prove the existence of a newly produced stash.

So more time would have been disastrous. So we moved on this.
I, for one, am of the opinion that it is about time.

The comparison to Vietnam is absurd hyperbole, to put it mildly. There is no comparison. None. Those who are trying to draw one don't understand military action, its purpose, our history, or this war.

The nature of war is not the salient point. People die? Yes they do. Civilians? Yep. The idea is that the casualties of war are less than the casualties of inaction. In this case, that litmus test is certainly passed.

The freeing of the Iraqi people is not the central reason for initiating aggression, but it certainly makes a nice adjunct. Alone, it is a fairly compelling reason to consider aggression (although entering on that basis alone is problematic). So consider it a bonus.

Our way of life is so taken for granted it is sickening. Look what these guys did with four airplanes. What could they do with actual weaponry and funding, once it became totally organized?

The opponents to this war have yet to produce any significant reasoning for lack of action. You don't like war? Niether do I. I like the idea of nations supporting those who would plot our ruin even less. Especially if they become armed.

[This message was edited by Fukkenshredded on 04-02-2003 at 10:19 AM.]

[archive_Iron God]

Most of the world HATES Americans, and its time we stop giving a shit.

I think all these protesters need to get a clue and find out how the the world really works.

Might makes right! Always has and always will be the case.

[archive_HULK1550]

I think that pretty much sums up IG's feelings on just about everything! LOL!

1stRule: Show Up!
2nd Rule: Squat!

[Verbal Gorilla]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Iron God:
Most of the world HATES Americans, and its time we stop giving a shit.

I think all these protesters need to get a clue and find out how the the world really works.

Might makes right! Always has and always will be the case.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, unfortunately the US is NOT going to be the might ad infitam.

Look, the reasoning is shady, but I don't care. It is simple. Saddam is a mass murderer...People are dying much more horribly than those who die in battle (although no less tragic). So what if our gov. is full of shite, so what if worse shite IS going on in Africa, etc. and we are too cowardly to do anyghing...THE US SHOULD be a world police force. Just cause we don't have a absolute responsibility doesn't mean we shouldn't do so...I always compare it to Fat guys...none of us HAVE to work so hard in the gym, but gosh-damn it, I am BETTER than everyone else...I always thought the US was too, but now I see that all of these "patroits" don't want to be.

I lived under a f-ed up dictator (for a short while, but my family did not.) He wasn't even close to as atrocious as Saddam and I am sure as shit glad he was dragged off and shot in front of a crowd. It should have happened sooner...The world sometimes is very crappy...I refuse to believe that taxes is more important than torture simple because we were born in the right place...

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

Answer the following:
Will we be safer after this war is won?
Will we face more terrorist attacks from an increasingly dissalusioned and now united arab world?
How will the financal cost of war and rebuilding iraq impact our already weak economy?
Will we be able to mend relations with the EU?
Is the current administration's unilateralism the answer to all problems?
Will Bush get re-elected?

Most of the world love americans, once they actually meet the people, are fascinated with our culture, but hate our politics

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[Fukkenshredded]

Your answers:

1. We will be safer after this war for the following reasons: The slowly forming alliance of Syria, Iraq, and other terrorist supporting countries will be somewhat thwarted. Countries will be forced to take a position now, before those relationships are crystallized, rather than after America has become a weaker country by virtue of inaction. This consideration of consequence will reinforce many countries' assumption that we are still the superpower to be dealt with and to oppose us is foolish. However, if left unattended, a broad base of individual opponents could develop into a threat that we could not so readily avert.

2. "...now united Arab world..." Hmmm. I'm not sure what your thinking is here. Of the 1.3 billion Muslims, about ten percent are fundamentalists. That's 130 million that were already united in their hatred of America. These attacks started long ago. the bombing of our barracks, the attempted bombing of the towers in 1992, etc. Now, that first attempt on the towers went unanswered. So what happened? The approach was refined and finally successful. The attacks have become more prevalent as a result of inactivity, so where is the logic in continuing a posture of nonresponse? The attacks will come anyway, why make it easy? Terrorists need sponsors. If the world witnesses a penalty for such sponsorship, certainly their will be some reluctance on the part of most countries to sponsor them so openly, wouldn't you agree? the idea that our response is provocative is illusory...these people are already united in their mission, and have been for a long, long time. Sponsorship from an alliance of countries must be avoided if possible.

3. The financial cost of the war...well, first of all, the oil will offset much of the costs. Secondly, where are you getting the data to suggest that our economy is weak? That case has not been made yet. What has happened is a correction of inflated and inaccurate economic numbers generated by a lax and irresponsible administration for the previous eight years. Our economy is strong, and is getting stronger. The stock market is NOT the economy. Employment numbers are NOT the economy.

4. Mending relations with the EU. What has happened is an exposure of the true nature of these so called relations. They are not damaged as a result of this war, rather, our decision to act has revealed to us who our allies are. France and Germany were providing assistance to Iraq BEFORE this war ever came onto the scene. How, then, are we to argue that the war has caused the friction? We simply exposed the dual nature of some of our colleagues, as well as the lack of substance in many of these alliances. I think its good to know right where everyone stands, so in that sense, our increased knowledge and awareness is an asset, not a liability.

5. Unilateralism? 45 nations, bro. The only unilateral position here is France's position. We were attacked, we responded. Who's permission do we need? This coalition is larger than any in recent history. There is no unilateralism on our part. Think again. Also, who ever suggested that Bush believes he is solving all problems? Again, we perceive a threat, we are taking action to avert that threat, period. Everything else is commentary generally indulged in as a result of ignorance. We have a right to defend ourselves, and to do so on
our own terms.

6. Bush re-elected? Who would you pick? Would it be so bad to have Bush re-elected? Has your life been negatively impacted by all of this so called mismanagement of our economy? Are you in more danger now because of Bush's policy on terrorism?

I'll vote for him...and I am not even a Republican. His policy is, in my way of thinking, much sounder than his predecessor's.

[Mister B.]

I like this guys summary. I agree with everything except the notion of "fuck peace". I feel peace is the preferred route. As far as I'm concerned, the US didn't choose the current route, Saddam did...

http://mirrors.soundspot.tv/war.htm

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"... my mom says I'm cool..."
-- Milhouse

[Corleone]

Great site Mister B. The people protesting this war have no fuckin clue.

Sometimes war is unavoidable. Was there any other way with the Nazi regime? Should we have just sat on our asses to avoid blood shed and let Hitler do as he pleased? Ohh I'm sure it would have been great for FDR to say "Ohh well it's not happening on our soil so it's none of our business". Human rights are global not limited to our country. How is Sadaam different than Hitler? IMO how can you draw the line between Nazi's and Muslim Radicals? They both have the same goal, to eliminate any other race and belief but their own. He's just waiting for his moment to strike, stock-piling weapons of mass destruction, biological and chemical weapons. He uses human shields, tortures and rapes those who oppose him, kills families. If he is stopped his son's will step in right where he left off. This whole regime has to be put to an end before it's too late.

I applaud Bush, his father should have finished him off when he had the chance. Now it's over 10 years later, but not too late.

Hold on, my liver just stopped.......ok there it goes again.

[freshr1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by therealj:
..to be honest I'm embarressed as a Canadian everytime I watch CNN...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually you should just feel ashamed for is watching CNN.

--
"Your work is both good and original. Unfortunately the part that is good is not original and the part that is original is not good." - Samuel Johnson

[This message was edited by freshr1 on 04-02-2003 at 04:22 PM.]

[Mister B.]

Peter Arnette... is that you? LOL!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by freshr1:

Actually you should just feel ashamed for is watching CNN.

--
"Your work is both good and original. Unfortunately the part that is good is not original and the part that is original is not good." - Samuel Johnson

[This message was edited by freshr1 on 04-02-2003 at 04:22 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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"... my mom says I'm cool..."
-- Milhouse