Trap Bar Deadlifts

[Stephen]

Can these improve your regular barbell deadlift or should the trap bar just be used for shrugging?

[GTLifter]

pulling with the trap bar is good for variety

[RagingBull666]

While it may be good for variety there is no direct carryover IMO. The trap bar is a different move as it places the center of weight in line with your hips and not in front as does barbell deadlifts. Your quads will get stronger but not your back.

I used to use them for shrugs and thought it would work for pulls as well. I used them as an assistance training pull and have absolutely ZERO carry over to deadlift. SS, RB

[GTLifter]

To say it has zero carryover is a bit of an extreme statement.

For instance, rack pulls do not have a direct carryover to my deadlift but they do make my upper back stronger and accustomed to handling heavy loads so indirectly they will help my pull. I think the same applies to the trap bar. Also, I tend to pull with a lot of leg drive off the floor so using the trap bar to make my quads stronger would help my pull.

[RagingBull666]

I stated that I had zero carryover.

It is an assistance move and can help in some ways but IMO should not be used to get a bigger deadlift.

I just firmly believe that if you want to pull more, pull more. The only way to a bigger deadlift is to deadlift. That is all.

Ask a Big Iron powerlifter what their "secret" is to big deadlifts and they will tell you that there is NO secret. They just deadlift EVERY single week. SS, RB

[GTLifter]

There is more then one way to skin a cat.


But pulling often is what made my pull start to move.

[getjacked]

I stated that I had zero carryover.

It is an assistance move and can help in some ways but IMO should not be used to get a bigger deadlift.

I just firmly believe that if you want to pull more, pull more. The only way to a bigger deadlift is to deadlift. That is all.

Ask a Big Iron powerlifter what their "secret" is to big deadlifts and they will tell you that there is NO secret. They just deadlift EVERY single week. SS, RB

and theres plenty of good pullers that don't deadlift weekly. i mean it all depends.

i will say that the best overall in the world seem to pull frequently. konstantine seems to pull heavy as fuck every single week. i know some guys with 815+ pulls that pull 3x a week. its wild

[JoeD]

more than one way to skin a cat. theres a decent amount of 800 pullers that don't do regular DL's to get their DL bigger

i do believe the guys that can pull heavy week in week out are built to do it though. I tried pulling heavy for 3 weeks straight and my CNS dampened to the point where 225 on squat, bench or deadlift felt like a grand.

i think you could use trapbar deadlifts as an assistance, they never really did much for me, but maybe it'll help your pulls out?

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by IFBB PRO
i dont mean to disrespect power lifters but to me those are the guys who just cant achieve the bodybuilding look but wish they were as strong as we look

:roflmao:

[JoeD]

isn't that golden? he's up for member of the month nomination, you'd be insane to vote anyone else

[Stephen]

isn't that golden? he's up for member of the month nomination, you'd be insane to vote anyone else

I think what he meant to say was that "bodybuilders wish they were as strong as they look." Powerlifters already have the whole strength thing figured out...

[getjacked]

I think what he meant to say was that "bodybuilders wish they were as strong as they look." Powerlifters already have the whole strength thing figured out...

:rofl: well you're being just as bad as he was

[Evidence]

There is definitely a time and place for most exercises. I don't agree with the statement that this exercise has zero carryover. IMO anytime you can push or press with a neutral grip is a good thing. The bar placement in a deadlift with a standard olympic bar compared to the positioning of the hands and weight on a trap bar is a great difference and I feel pulling with a trap bar can be extremely productive due to those two differences. You can use more leg drive out of a trap bar pull and if you're rounding your back out too much for example with a barbell, this could be a great way to mix things up.

[getjacked]

here comes the usual real world vs. theory post by me

there is a reason why there is almost nobody that can pull worth a damn that uses trap bar. sure it may be fun for variety here and there but nobody that i know that pulls a lot uses a trap bar to train their pull. if someone starts pulling over 800 and is using a trap bar to get his pull up then i'd consider using it.

[BiggT]

I don't know of any monster deadlifters who use a trap bar either. In terms of the responses to this post, I think it boils down to training philosophy. I think the WSB-insfluenced people who rotate lifts are going to be more likely to be the "variety is the spice of life" types.

Personally, I am a consistency is the spice of life type. In terms of a breather and some variety, there is a lot worse you can do. I have yet to be convinced it'll help your pull. If you want strong legs, squat and front squat. If you want a strong lockout, do rows, shrugs, and pulls from the pins. If you want to be strong from the floor, pull from the floor. I've never touched a trap bar, nor do I ever plan on it, but that is just my background and philosophy, I am not saying it is the worst thing you can do or there is anything wrong with it, just that I'd really need to be convinced it tremendously helped somebody's conventional dead from the floor before I changed my mind.

[JoeD]

biggt, there aren't any trap bars @ westside, but i have seen a guy from elite do trap bar deads as an assistance exercise..and they all basically train westside (hell their whole biz is based off of westside.)

secondly.. pleeeeeeeeeeeeease tell me how a shrug will help a lockout? Do a shrug right now then perform a d/l lockout...they arent even REMOTELY close..you dont even move your hips or low back doing a shrug!!.how will a row help your lockout? I'm not trying to rip on your or anything, but at least have a small clue if you're going to offer advice on a lockout.

[BiggT]

Relax, brother. I have a small clue. I mean jump shrugs. You do move your hips. They strengthen the traps and upper back, and strong traps and a strong upper back help your lockout.

I never said they do trap bar deads at WSB. I said WSB has influenced a lot of people to rotate lifts and use a lot of variety.

So, pleeeeeeeeease
have a small clue before you rip on somebody (and yes, you were ripping on me).


biggt, there aren't any trap bars @ westside, but i have seen a guy from elite do trap bar deads as an assistance exercise..and they all basically train westside (hell their whole biz is based off of westside.)

secondly.. pleeeeeeeeeeeeease tell me how a shrug will help a lockout? Do a shrug right now then perform a d/l lockout...they arent even REMOTELY close..you dont even move your hips or low back doing a shrug!!.how will a row help your lockout? I'm not trying to rip on your or anything, but at least have a small clue if you're going to offer advice on a lockout.

[JoeD]

Relax, brother. I have a small clue. I do jump shrugs. You do move your hips. They strengthen the traps and upper back, and strong traps and a strong upper back help your lockout.

I never said they do trap bar deads at WSB. I said WSB has influenced a lot of people to rotate lifts and use a lot of variety.

So, pleeeeeeeeease
have a small clue before you rip on somebody (and yes, you were ripping on me).


i know, i just said ive seen people who use WSB methods use trapbars but they dont have trap bars at ws..

even a jump strong doesn't mimic a DL lockout. I agree a big strong upperback is important but i dont think any of those lifts you mention have any direct carry over to a DL lockout.

[BiggT]

I said to strengthen the top end of a DL (which is also called the lockout), do lockouts from the pins (i also call them pulls from the pins), or do rows, or do shrugs. When and where did I say jump shrugs were similar to lockouts? I'm sorry if we're off on the wrong foot, I really am. I also have no problem with differing opinions on training philosphy, it's what makes the world go around. I have always felt the top end of a pull is a lot of traps/upper back. Rows/Shrugs strengthen the traps/upper back, so I feel they help the top end of a pull. Nowhere in my post did I say either one mimics lockouts (maybe it was a misunderstanding - I refer to the top end of a pull as a lockout, I pull conventional- maybe the misunderstanding lies there).

I can agree to disagree, I can't see how trap bar deads do a damn thing for anybody's barbell dead.

[BiggT]

P.S. nice signature, that guy was a fountain of information and extremely tactful, lol.

[JoeD]

I said to strengthen the top end of a DL (which is also called the lockout), do lockouts from the pins, or do rows, or do shrugs. When and where did I say jump shrugs were similar to lockouts? I'm sorry if we're off on the wrong foot, I really am. I also have no problem with differing opinions on training philosphy, it's what makes the world go around. I have always felt the top end of a pull is a lot of traps/upper back. Rows/Shrugs strengthen the traps/upper back, so I feel they help the top end of a pull. Nowhere in my post did I say either one mimics lockouts (maybe it was a misunderstanding - I refer to the top end of a pull as a lockout, I pull conventional- maybe the misunderstanding lies there).

I can agree to disagree, I can't see the need for trap bar deads.

i agree, i nail the upperback all the time, what i'm saying is I don't see how doing shrugs or rows directly carry overs to a lockout. I consider that "general" work but if one is trying to build a strong lockout, IMO those exercises wouldn't be the ones I would choose to build a strong lock out. and trust me i agree with you, a ton of back work is important for all the lifts.

you said this "If you want a strong lockout, do rows, shrugs." 3 years ago I was stuck at 420...at lockout. I shrugged my freaking ass of for a month. I came back to test my dl 5 wks later and it didn't improve a freaking OUNCE.

an 800+ puller suggested I try doing SLDLs with chains as a SLDL mimics the lockout somewhat(and i pull sumo)... a few weeks later i smoked my PR.. my point is the general work shrugs, rows,etc are good but they wont build any "sports specific strength" to help a lockout. if that makes any sense...

[getjacked]

secondly.. pleeeeeeeeeeeeease tell me how a shrug will help a lockout? Do a shrug right now then perform a d/l lockout...they arent even REMOTELY close..you dont even move your hips or low back doing a shrug!!.how will a row help your lockout? I'm not trying to rip on your or anything, but at least have a small clue if you're going to offer advice on a lockout.

Matt Krocaleski recommends dumbell rowing to increase his deadlift, his suggestions have taken hold over at elite and jim wendler as well as other elite or former elite PL's have suggested high rep dumbell rows to help their lockout.

[getjacked]

YouTube - EliteFTS.com - Matt Kroczaleski on Kroc Rows (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF8Fpssobvc)

Matt Krocaleski talking about dumbell rows helping his deadlift

YouTube - Deadlift 655 x 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0KDnaHCOQ0)

Matt Krocaleski pulling 655x5

[Halfway]

I got my DB row up to 300 for 3 sets of 5 with pretty good form (and 200-220 for 20+ reps).. lots of pulling from a few inches off the floor with my 1RM+ for 4-8 reps. And my floor deadlift didn't budge an ounce. It actually went down :(

For genetically average peeps I think you need to deadlift as much as you can get away with, without burning out your CNS to make the lift, box squats helped me, so did heavy BB rows with some hip thrust but really only pulling got my body trained to pull.

FWIW I think the trap bar is just fine for regular people who want a good lower body lift and would be lucky to make a 600# pull in their lifetime, never mind this 800+ stuff.

[getjacked]

I got my DB row up to 300 for 3 sets of 5 with pretty good form (and 200-220 for 20+ reps).. lots of pulling from a few inches off the floor with my 1RM+ for 4-8 reps. And my floor deadlift didn't budge an ounce. It actually went down :(

For genetically average peeps I think you need to deadlift as much as you can get away with, without burning out your CNS to make the lift, box squats helped me, so did heavy BB rows with some hip thrust but really only pulling got my body trained to pull.

FWIW I think the trap bar is just fine for regular people who want a good lower body lift and would be lucky to make a 600# pull in their lifetime, never mind this 800+ stuff.

the dumbell rows are to help lockout, as the upper back is involved in locking weights out unless you have an ass of steel.

for off the floor, depending how you pull, low back/quads are very important. for rounded upper backs, hips high.. its mostly just low back and hammies. for people who try to "squat" the weight off the ground (conventional) then lots of quads are in play.

[JoeD]

YouTube - EliteFTS.com - Matt Kroczaleski on Kroc Rows (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF8Fpssobvc)

Matt Krocaleski talking about dumbell rows helping his deadlift

YouTube - Deadlift 655 x 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0KDnaHCOQ0)

Matt Krocaleski pulling 655x5

that was a good interview. and i could be wrong but I'm wondering if the rows helped him out moreso because his upperback was lagging behind than a row specifically helps out a dead lift lockout. like, rowing helps our bench #s but if you're weak at the bottom or at lockout you probably wouldnt choose a row movement to specifically bring up a lockout or a weak bottom. Upper back is definitely super important.

[GTLifter]

high rep DB rows and t-bar rows helped my lockout

[IliekFude]

they could sure.. if yr specific level of training and weaknesses require trap bar deadlifts as a movement to bring them up and thereby add lbs to yr regular dead.
Just like any other movement in our arsenal. Its all specific to yrself man. Diagnose yr weaknesses n find the cures for yr ill.
And remember as you progress yr weaknesses will change and you'll hafta find cures for the new ones while maintaining the level of training youve achieved in the others at the same time.
Fun fun.
:)

[Stephen]

:rofl: well you're being just as bad as he was

Nah…I've never really understood the logic behind a lifter of the "bodybuilding" mentality trying to cut down a powerlifter, although it makes total sense the other way around. I don't think that powerlifters are guys who simply don't have the discipline to achieve the physique of bodybuilders (and no, I'm not fat). I think its more that powerlifters approach lifting weights like any other true athletic event…it's about real competition, plain and simple. In baseball the team who scores the most runs win…in weight lifting, it should be about whoever lifts the most weight wins. I've never been one to associate pushing iron to a beauty contest. Any events that require judges (usually biased with their own agenda) to determine a winner are a joke IMHO. Unless the winner can be determined by an accrued point total or a clock, then it isn't a legitimate competition. I just lump bodybuilding in along with events like figure skating, synchronized swimming, and rhythmic gymnastics. There is never a true champion in those contests because the criteria to win was nothing more than someone's personal opinion...

[JoeD]

Nah…I've never really understood the logic behind a lifter of the "bodybuilding" mentality trying to cut down a powerlifter, although it makes total sense the other way around. I don't think that powerlifters are guys who simply don't have the discipline to achieve the physique of bodybuilders (and no, I'm not fat). I think its more that powerlifters approach lifting weights like any other true athletic event…it's about real competition, plain and simple. In baseball the team who scores the most runs win…in weight lifting, it should be about whoever lifts the most weight wins. I've never been one to associate pushing iron to a beauty contest. Any events that require judges (usually biased with their own agenda) to determine a winner are a joke IMHO. Unless the winner can be determined by an accrued point total or a clock, then it isn't a legitimate competition. I just lump bodybuilding in along with events like figure skating, synchronized swimming, and rhythmic gymnastics. There is never a true champion in those contests because the criteria to win was nothing more than someone's personal opinion...

That's my largest gripe with body building -- the winner is left to the judges. If I posted a picture of 3 pro body builders everyone would have a different opinion on who had the best physique. I don't understand how you can go to a competition and win or lose off of a few opinions, with a blurry criteria-- not to mention all the politics in the damn game. I agree with what you said, it's more of a beauty contest, not really an athletic event.

I will give bod builders credit for their dieting though. Dieting down the show takes a LOT of mental power and dedication.

I just hate when BB-ers rip on PLers though.

[getjacked]

Nah…I've never really understood the logic behind a lifter of the "bodybuilding" mentality trying to cut down a powerlifter, although it makes total sense the other way around. I don't think that powerlifters are guys who simply don't have the discipline to achieve the physique of bodybuilders (and no, I'm not fat). I think its more that powerlifters approach lifting weights like any other true athletic event…it's about real competition, plain and simple. In baseball the team who scores the most runs win…in weight lifting, it should be about whoever lifts the most weight wins. I've never been one to associate pushing iron to a beauty contest. Any events that require judges (usually biased with their own agenda) to determine a winner are a joke IMHO. Unless the winner can be determined by an accrued point total or a clock, then it isn't a legitimate competition. I just lump bodybuilding in along with events like figure skating, synchronized swimming, and rhythmic gymnastics. There is never a true champion in those contests because the criteria to win was nothing more than someone's personal opinion...

that has nothing to do with what you posted. he took a cheap shot at PL and you took a cheap shot at BB's. that's all i was saying, same thing.

also, what PL meets have you done?

[Stephen]

that has nothing to do with what you posted. he took a cheap shot at PL and you took a cheap shot at BB's. that's all i was saying, same thing.

also, what PL meets have you done?

Well like I said…I think powerlifters are justified in taking cheap shots at bodybuilders. I just don't think it makes a lot of sense the other way around, unless they are going to specifically hone in on dietary discipline. Even then it's a generalization because there are plenty of powerlifters with phenominal physiques. They just don't care to have a panel of judges confirm it for them.

I have never done a PL meet. My total is barely over 1000 lbs right now. I was flat out uneducated about lifting weights for a long time and wasted a lot of years doing stupid shit like wrist curls, calf raises, decline presses, and dumbbell flyes. I was in pretty good shape, but didn't accomplish squat in terms of gaining strength. Over the last few years I got back up from the couch (didn't enter a gym for several years due to extreme laziness) and re-educated myself. My best lift is the dead, and I hope to hit 500 by the end of the summer or early fall.

[Evidence]

I have never done a PL meet. My total is barely over 1000 lbs right now. I was flat out uneducated about lifting weights for a long time and wasted a lot of years doing stupid shit like wrist curls, calf raises, decline presses, and dumbbell flyes. I was in pretty good shape, but didn't accomplish squat in terms of gaining strength. Over the last few years I got back up from the couch (didn't enter a gym for several years due to extreme laziness) and re-educated myself. My best lift is the dead, and I hope to hit 500 by the end of the summer or early fall.

That's a great attitude and I wish you the best in what your goals are. And you're natural too as well? Very nice. That's great you got a chance to see that maybe there was a different way of training and you were willing to implement it. Now you see through your own past training that eventhough it wasn't what you feel was best, you used that routine to move forward and know what to bring forward and know what to leave behind. Don't worry about playing the numbers game or people asking you oh , what are your totals or what shows have you done? That's not really important right and getting yourself into the level of strength and conditioning is. You just gotta do what is best for you and I hope it all comes together. Sounds like you are on the right path. You're never done learning and progressing.

[getjacked]

That's a great attitude and I wish you the best in what your goals are. And you're natural too as well? Very nice. That's great you got a chance to see that maybe there was a different way of training and you were willing to implement it. Now you see through your own past training that eventhough it wasn't what you feel was best, you used that routine to move forward and know what to bring forward and know what to leave behind. Don't worry about playing the numbers game or people asking you oh , what are your totals or what shows have you done? That's not really important right and getting yourself into the level of strength and conditioning is. You just gotta do what is best for you and I hope it all comes together. Sounds like you are on the right path. You're never done learning and progressing.

it's not a numbers game, it's an experience game. there is something to be said about people who will sit and insult BB'rs or PL's when they haven't done anything in either respective sports.

what is the name of that? oh yes, it's called a sideline warrior, and the internet is FULL of them.

the interesting thing is that it's pretty rare you find an actual competitive bodybuilder or a competitive powerlifter that will really talk shit about the other sport in a serious way.

i'm not insulting stephen, i just always think it's funny.. anytime this type of stuff comes up and i ask the poster "well which do you compete in?" 99.99% of the time it's along the lines of i haven't competed.

[GTLifter]

it's not a numbers game, it's an experience game. there is something to be said about people who will sit and insult BB'rs or PL's when they haven't done anything in either respective sports.


even if you total 800lbs in 4ply gear at yoru first meet you still had the nuts to compete and that gets respect.




the interesting thing is that it's pretty rare you find an actual competitive bodybuilder or a competitive powerlifter that will really talk shit about the other sport in a serious way.

:werd: we have a couple of guys at the gym that have either done BB shows in the past or still do on occasion and we joke around with them but never seriously put them down. Then again one of them has the biggest squat on the record board so you really can't give him shit. lol.

[getjacked]

I have never done a PL meet. My total is barely over 1000 lbs right now. I was flat out uneducated about lifting weights for a long time and wasted a lot of years doing stupid shit like wrist curls, calf raises, decline presses, and dumbbell flyes. I was in pretty good shape, but didn't accomplish squat in terms of gaining strength. Over the last few years I got back up from the couch (didn't enter a gym for several years due to extreme laziness) and re-educated myself. My best lift is the dead, and I hope to hit 500 by the end of the summer or early fall.

well that's good, step on the platform. it will teach you more about yourself and more about lifting than any internet post out there could.

[Evidence]

Powerlifters taking shots at bodybuilding and bodybuilders taking shots at powerlifters is nothing new and is just a different philosophy in their training. Doesn't mean one is better than the other one, whatever one you chose, then that's your preference. I don't know who called who out or who said what. That shouldn't be the point. I was just commending Stephen for his attitude of identifying he wasn't training the way he felt he should've and he's finding different ways and educating himself. Him not competiting has nothing to do with anything. If he's getting up everyday and making himself better, then good for him. That's what it's about.

I mean Jesse Marunde has an amazing website and god bless his soul. When he was writing people on his forum daily, he never called anyone out asking them if they competed in strongman and trying to make himself look good. There are a lot of strong bastards on that site that also look like if they wanted to they could become bodybuilders and not all of them compete. They all try to help each other and not everyone has the ability to become the World's Strongest Man or compete on the IFSA stage. And some people do farmer walks, drag sleds, pick up stones all becasue they enjoy it. Just like you said yourself, there are plenty of powerlifters who could get on stage and pose, but they don't need a group of judges verifying they have what it takes in bodybuilding. You don't have to step on a stage to "learn more about yourself" as you say. Plenty of athletes who play baseball and basketball and etc don't need to do a powerlifting meet or bodybuilding show to "learn more about themselves". Hitting a homerun to win a game or dunking on someone's head is their way of saying, yes i bust my ass in the gym and this is my reward. Its not all about your totals. Chuck Vogelphol is a successful powerlifter and would outbench a lot of people in the NFL. But put him up against someone like Jake Long on a football field and watch him get owned. People train for different reasons.

[Stephen]

it's not a numbers game, it's an experience game. there is something to be said about people who will sit and insult BB'rs or PL's when they haven't done anything in either respective sports.

what is the name of that? oh yes, it's called a sideline warrior, and the internet is FULL of them.

the interesting thing is that it's pretty rare you find an actual competitive bodybuilder or a competitive powerlifter that will really talk shit about the other sport in a serious way.

i'm not insulting stephen, i just always think it's funny.. anytime this type of stuff comes up and i ask the poster "well which do you compete in?" 99.99% of the time it's along the lines of i haven't competed.

I'm not insulted at all. I just don't agree with the that you need to enter PL meets in order to hold an opinion about which method of training is superior in regards to gaining strength. Take my occasional workout buddy, for example. He squats 5 wheels, does pull-ups with a 100-pound dumbbell hanging from his waist, and has the physique of a bodybuilder. I honestly believe he could enter either a bodybuilding or a powerlifting contest right now and do very well in either. Does the fact that he has never bothered to enter a meet all of a sudden disqualify his opinion? He's been lifting for 22 years so he sure as hell has the experience.

[getjacked]

I'm not insulted at all. I just don't agree with the that you need to enter PL meets in order to hold an opinion about which method of training is superior in regards to gaining strength. Take my occasional workout buddy, for example. He squats 5 wheels, does pull-ups with a 100-pound dumbbell hanging from his waist, and has the physique of a bodybuilder. I honestly believe he could enter either a bodybuilding or a powerlifting contest right now and do very well in either. Does the fact that he has never bothered to enter a meet all of a sudden disqualify his opinion? He's been lifting for 22 years so he sure as hell has the experience.

when did this turn into a thread about which training method is better for strength ???

all i'm saying is you will rarely find people on the internet that ACTUALLY COMPETE that will sit here and engage in these worthless, useless debates and insult each others sport. there is a reason for that. it has to do with not being internet warriors and having some semblance of respect.

[KKAZ]

I love em.Especially for reps. But i am no powerlifter. Still, i think its a great movement.Gives the lower back a rest, but still get to pull.

[Curious George]

I think it really depends on your leverage. I have a short torso, long arms and shorter legs. Deadlifting is pretty natural for me, but I tend to lift with more back than legs. I am a conventional puller and I think by using the trap bar in my cycles, it has helped my starting strength off the bottom.

My suggestion is to try everything. To say something has no carryover is pretty broad in my opinion because we all have different limb lengths and weaknesses. The key is to find out where you are weak and make that a strength, than reevaluate.

As for bodybuilders and powerlifters and the debate between them: I have done both and so have irongod and a bunch of us here. It's all based on training to your specific needs. I am not the strongest guy naturally and powerlifting was really hard for me at first, but I did okay. I am a more natural bodybuilder. You train for the goal that you want to achieve. A sprinter doesn't train like a marathon runner and vice versa. I respect anybody with a passion to attain their goals.