View Full Version : some louie quotes regarding bench shirts, max effort work, etc
getjacked
06-05-2008, 05:57 AM
Nowhere have I read that wearing a bench shirt is max effort work. The shirt is doing the work, not the muscular system of the lifter. In fact, your true max strength will decrease, as we found out.
Why? Using a bench shirt is not max effort work. The shirt is doing the work, not the lifter. Remember the three main methods of training? The shirt work replaced max effort work, but not really. All of a sudden, they couldn’t lock out weights that were easy before. Some did not do speed work.
and one of the most true imo
Recently I have seen four lifters break their arm doing a contest bench. I believe this is due to training short-cuts. As one buys a stronger bench shirt, they neglect to train harder to become stronger. Something has to give, and it is the lifter. So if you are going to spend a lot of cash for a shirt, try spending some time getting stronger.
anybody whos been to any PL meet in the last few years knows about the above. so many lifters look so unbelievably unmuscular yet the gear allows them to get under weights they shouldn't be. the answer to a lot of strength issues now seems to be to get a better shirt/suit, jack up said shirt more, etc.
anyway i thought it was interesting to see louie say that the shirt does the work for the lifter, etc.. as well as the other quotes. what do you guys think?
and one of the most true imo
anybody whos been to any PL meet in the last few years knows about the above. so many lifters look so unbelievably unmuscular yet the gear allows them to get under weights they shouldn't be. the answer to a lot of strength issues now seems to be to get a better shirt/suit, jack up said shirt more, etc.
anyway i thought it was interesting to see louie say that the shirt does the work for the lifter, etc.. as well as the other quotes. what do you guys think?
I talked to Louie about this a week ago a little bit. A lot of the guys there only get in their shirt about every 3rd week or so. Louie is definitely about pushing up your raw bench. Now, like I made a note in my log shirt benching WILL push up your raw benching because it will build a strong lockout and build internal strength.
He said he had a guy max out 315 as many times as he could...he got it 6x. He put a shirt on and in a few months worked up to 315 x 23 in a shirt. He then maxed out 315 raw again and got it 13x
BTW none of the members at westside are lacking muscle.
oh and one more thing I discussed with Louie was board pressing. It's totally over done by many. He said he has seen many lifters do 15% over their max off a 1 or 2 board and have trouble locking out their max or a small PR(due to bar deceleration) . What good is it if you can do a ton over your max but can't lockout your max. He said board pressing is good, and used to test strength not as a strength builder.
shirt benching WILL push up your raw benching because it will build a strong lockout and build internal strength.
Isn't that the exact opposite of the point Louie just made above?
"The shirt is doing the work, not the muscular system of the lifter. In fact, your true max strength will decrease, as we found out. "
Isn't that the exact opposite of the point Louie just made above?
"The shirt is doing the work, not the muscular system of the lifter. In fact, your true max strength will decrease, as we found out. "
No, he's saying if you just do ME work in your shirt your max strength willd ecrease. doing 315 x 23 in a shirt isn't ME work. He's saying you must push up your raw bench to get a bigger shirted bench. If the shirt was so bad for max strength they would never put it on.
No, he's saying if you just do ME work in your shirt your max strength willd ecrease. doing 315 x 23 in a shirt isn't ME work. He's saying you must push up your raw bench to get a bigger shirted bench. If the shirt was so bad for max strength they would never put it on.
Not quite... he's saying doing too much shirted work and neglecting your raw bench will cause your raw strength to suffer.
In other words while bigger raw = bigger shirted. Bigger shirted does not = bigger raw.
I'm not arguing if it's true or not, I don't do geared work. That is what louie's quote implies quite clearly though.
GTLifter
06-05-2008, 10:38 AM
I spent 6 months doing a ton of raw work and adding some mass then the first time I put a shirt back on I hit a 80lb gym PR. This was a single ply shirt that I had already trained for and lifted in two meets with as well.
Raw work builds strength, shirted work shows strength.
IliekFude
06-05-2008, 10:40 AM
and one of the most true imo
anybody whos been to any PL meet in the last few years knows about the above. so many lifters look so unbelievably unmuscular yet the gear allows them to get under weights they shouldn't be. the answer to a lot of strength issues now seems to be to get a better shirt/suit, jack up said shirt more, etc.
anyway i thought it was interesting to see louie say that the shirt does the work for the lifter, etc.. as well as the other quotes. what do you guys think?
One huge reason why i backed away from gettin into geared lifting at my present skill level. I dont feel like im worthy of the sport yet. Imo when i bench 500, squat around 6-7 and dead 7+ then i can consider putting armor on.
I totally agree, like a crane - no matter how strong the hydrolics or supports or counterweight or how good the operator is, if you have one poorly welded link in the chain or one frayed section of cable yr gona drop that load.
Best way to remove weakpoints altogether imo is become MASSIVELY strong in a raw capacity. You cant cheat raw, it just doesnt work that way.
Good points man.
Not quite... he's saying doing too much shirted work and neglecting your raw bench will cause your raw strength to suffer.
In other words while bigger raw = bigger shirted. Bigger shirted does not = bigger raw.
I'm not arguing if it's true or not, I don't do geared work. That is what louie's quote implies quite clearly though.
In other words while bigger raw = bigger shirted. Bigger shirted does not = bigger raw.
ok thats waht i was implying
i literally talked to louie a few days ago about geared benching. did you not read what i said? he took someone's raw bench for 315 x 6. he worked up to 315x23 in a shirt after a few months and then he repped out 315x13 raw. working in briefs/half suit will also help out your raw numbers. I specifically spoke to louie about this the other day. but it sounds like you're the one with infinite wisdom on the subject, so i guess i should keep my mouth shut when i pick up a few things from westside.
One huge reason why i backed away from gettin into geared lifting at my present skill level. I dont feel like im worthy of the sport yet. Imo when i bench 500, squat around 6-7 and dead 7+ then i can consider putting armor on.
I totally agree, like a crane - no matter how strong the hydrolics or supports or counterweight or how good the operator is, if you have one poorly welded link in the chain or one frayed section of cable yr gona drop that load.
Best way to remove weakpoints altogether imo is become MASSIVELY strong in a raw capacity. You cant cheat raw, it just doesnt work that way.
Good points man.
fude...this what my thought process to. but when i got to westside they told me to train in briefs on max effor tday or half suit. not only because it prevents injury but it WILL bump up your raw work as well.
I specifically spoke to louie about this the other day. but it sounds like you're the one with infinite wisdom on the subject, so i guess i should keep my mouth shut when i pick up a few things from westside.
Watch the way you talk to people.
Stop taking every discussion to the level of an arguement needlessly, and stop your constant and needless bragging about training at westside.
There are plenty of amazing powerlifting gyms and powerlifters across the united states, you don't have a monopoly on the discussion.
My point was that your post directly contradicted the quote and the point that the threadstarter was making. Not that your own experience is invalid, or that louie doesn't currently have a different opinion, or even that he was or wasn't misquoted.
The quote has a very clear meaning though, and your response agreed with it and then directly contradicted it the next sentence and you didn't realize it. I'm sorry that's such an ego blow to you. It's not necessary to take things so personal, we're all on the same side in that we are trying to get better.
Enough. Back to topic.
Watch the way you talk to people.
Stop taking every discussion to the level of an arguement needlessly, and stop your constant and needless bragging about training at westside.
There are plenty of amazing powerlifting gyms and powerlifters across the united states, you don't have a monopoly on the discussion.
My point was that your post directly contradicted the quote and the point that the threadstarter was making. Not that your own experience is invalid, or that louie doesn't currently have a different opinion, or even that he was or wasn't misquoted.
The quote has a very clear meaning though, and your response agreed with it and then directly contradicted it the next sentence and you didn't realize it. I'm sorry that's such an ego blow to you. It's not necessary to take things so personal, we're all on the same side in that we are trying to get better.
Enough. Back to topic.
this is why i hate the fucking internet lol
im not braggging lol, but youre calling me a liar by saying what im saying isnt true and im not lying. it jus tpisses me off that i actually discussed this with louie and youre saying that what i discussed with him is wrong. like you said, you haven't trained in gear so i dont see why you even chimed in the thread in the first place. and no i really didnt contradict myself you read it wrong. I'm sorry I chimed in this thread to help the author. im not saying i know everything and im not even that great of a lifter, but for fucks sakes i just had a discussion with the author of the article about geared benching!!!! it's not an ego blow its just really FRUSTRATING!!
Next time there's a thread like this i'll step out, and let ppl like yourself answer--you seem to know
GTLifter
06-05-2008, 11:31 AM
In other words while bigger raw = bigger shirted. Bigger shirted does not = bigger raw.
No, a big raw bench does not always lead to a big shirted bench. Kab, I think you're a nice guy but I don't think you have the experience to discuss raw vs geared lifting. You can learn a lot about gear work from reading books/articles/etc but you realize once you put the gear on how little you know.
GTLifter
06-05-2008, 11:33 AM
I also don't agree with putting briefs/half suit on for every Max Effort day but then again I also don't agree with lots of box squatting. We do very little if any squatting to a box at my gym and we have produced some pretty good squatters. (Goggins, Byrd, etc)
IliekFude
06-05-2008, 11:35 AM
There's nuggets to learn from in anything. Ya just hafta sift thru the rest to find them.
You absolutely can't blame a kid for rep'n westside if he gets to train there. They instill that in you. Its pride of team and system. When you get around those guys its like walking alongside gods for most pl'rs. Westside is our ven ice beach so just expect a pitbull
mentality when challenging any of it. Its a cultural thing.
Joe don't sweat it, learn what you can from them its the chance of a lifetime. When I was younger and single I wanted to call Lou many times and beg for guidance in exchange for cleaning the gym toilets if necessary and sleeping in the gym. Enjoy it man.
No, a big raw bench does not always lead to a big shirted bench. Kab, I think you're a nice guy but I don't think you have the experience to discuss raw vs geared lifting. You can learn a lot about gear work from reading books/articles/etc but you realize once you put the gear on how little you know.
Thank you, exactly what im saying
GTLifter
06-05-2008, 11:37 AM
Thank you, exactly what im saying
tact
I also don't agree with putting briefs/half suit on for every Max Effort day but then again I also don't agree with lots of box squatting. We do very little if any squatting to a box at my gym and we have produced some pretty good squatters. (Goggins, Byrd, etc)
There's nuggets to learn from in anything. Ya just hafta sift thru the rest to find them.
You absolutely can't blame a kid for rep'n westside if he gets to train there. They instill that in you. Its pride of team and system. When you get around those guys its like walking alongside gods for most pl'rs. Westside is our ven ice beach so just expect a outbill mentality when challenging any of it. Its a cultural thing.
Joe don't sweat it, learn what you can from them its the chance of a lifetime. When I was younger and single I wanted to call Lou many times and beg for guidance in exchange for cleaning the gym toilets if necessary and sleeping in the gym. Enjoy it man.
thnx.. I'm just relaying what I was told about what goes on at westside that is all.
bigdamray
06-05-2008, 11:41 AM
I hate bench press shirts!!
GTLifter
06-05-2008, 11:43 AM
I hate bench press shirts!!
:rofl:
That's because you have gobs of strength but haven't figured out how to use it yet!
No, a big raw bench does not always lead to a big shirted bench. Kab, I think you're a nice guy but I don't think you have the experience to discuss raw vs geared lifting. You can learn a lot about gear work from reading books/articles/etc but you realize once you put the gear on how little you know.
Which is why I never discussed it. I never offered an opinion about the geared lifting or even claimed that Joe was wrong or right or called the kid a liar.
I asked him a simple question, since his post contradicted getjacked's original, and he starts with needless, defensive name calling and f bombs.
Why, I don't know.
And then I get this rep message from him: "anyone ever call you a dumb ass before?"
Joe, nice to have you around buddy. Be sure to stay awhile.
bigdamray
06-05-2008, 11:47 AM
:rofl:
That's because you have gobs of strength but haven't figured out how to use it yet!
That has got to truest statement ever written!! :(
GTLifter
06-05-2008, 11:49 AM
Which is why I never discussed it. I never offered an opinion about the geared lifting or even claimed that Joe was wrong or right or called the kid a liar.
:rofl:
I didn't read the thread, I jsut scanned it and it looked like you two were arguing over geared lifitng. Gotcha.
That has got to truest statement ever written!!
:grouphug:
beetz, you said i contradicted myself by saying shirted benching can push up your raw benching. I'm saying too much ME bench work in a shirt can impact your overall benching, but lifting in a shirt can help your raw #s. the shirt doesn't lift the entire weight for you, the lockout is mostly the lifter. So you're locking out something you couldn't do rull range raw. I believe the overload principle also has something to do with it as well. think of a shirted bench as just another bench exercise.
GTLifter
06-05-2008, 12:05 PM
lifting in a shirt can help your raw #s. the shirt doesn't lift the entire weight for you, the lockout is mostly the lifter. So you're locking out something you couldn't do rull range raw.
unless you have really weak shoulders and can't get the bar off your chest....
irronically I've locked out 585 in a shirt but can't lock out 385 raw....
Halfway
06-05-2008, 01:27 PM
^^ Interesting, I never thought I'd get much out of a shirt as the lockout is usually where I fail on pressing & can barely rack lockout my full range bench #'s. Maybe worth a try after all
GTLifter
06-05-2008, 01:44 PM
bench shirts are weird animals...
I can do rack lockouts with somehting like 5 plates if I remember correctly.
Iron Island
06-05-2008, 02:25 PM
Bench shirts are different for anyone. I get about 100lbs out of mine but I know some people who get 300lbs.
getjacked
06-05-2008, 02:42 PM
beetz, you said i contradicted myself by saying shirted benching can push up your raw benching. I'm saying too much ME bench work in a shirt can impact your overall benching, but lifting in a shirt can help your raw #s. the shirt doesn't lift the entire weight for you, the lockout is mostly the lifter. So you're locking out something you couldn't do rull range raw. I believe the overload principle also has something to do with it as well. think of a shirted bench as just another bench exercise.
yes and like anything else louie is not infallible. i can see how a shirt bench could increase your raw bench but also think it just wouldnt be worthwhile for most people to bother. if you want to overload your lockout then there are plenty of movements to do that. a rev. band press will mimic a shirt well without having to go thru the horse shit of buying and putting on a shirt
on top of that the majority of raw benchers don't fail at lockout, they fail off their chest or mid range up. i have seen very few competition raw benches fail at lockout
getjacked
06-05-2008, 02:49 PM
and in my opinion if you want to have big raw #'s i agree with wendler, byrd, hoornstra, nick winters, etc.. byrd, hoornstra, and winters, being some of the strongest raw squatters and benchers in the world.
lets be frank here.. tons of PL's are weak without equipment. weak being a relative term. weak in relation to them being a "Elite Powerlifter". There are lifters that are benching 500-600+ and can't raw bench 350.
in MY experience, to get bigger raw numbers you have to lift raw. the mechanics of a raw squat vs. a geared UPA especially squat are 100% different. the same thing goes for the bench.
you can probably use some gear here and there to enhance it but definitely would not wear breifs and what not every ME day personally. your hips won't have nearly as much issues if you dont squat super wide becuase you really cant do that raw without it killing most people.
GTLifter
06-05-2008, 02:51 PM
weak in relation to them being a "Elite Powerlifter". There are lifters that are benching 500-600+ and can't raw bench 350.
:thefinger:
I'm working on it asshole! :rofl:
getjacked
06-05-2008, 02:57 PM
:thefinger:
I'm working on it asshole! :rofl:
i wasnt talking about you drew, also you know in your experience that to get a bigger raw bench you gotta raw bench, incline, etc
GTLifter
06-05-2008, 03:15 PM
:rofl: I know you weren't talking about me directly but the first time I benched 500 shirted I couldn't bench 315 raw.
I leared my lesson and took the gear off for awhile. The odd thing is I actually look like I might lift weights now.
i don't think anyone in here is arguing you need to increase your raw bench whether shirted lifter or not. I'm just doing as I'm told ie wear briefs, squat super wide. i came to columbus to learn what they're doing there, and that's what lou is telling me to do. im not trying to make an argument about anything here saying it's right or wrong or the best way. The thread was just about something that Louie wrote, and I just relayed a discussion i had with him about the matter. and i'll repeat he told me geared lifting can increase your raw #s--other lifters agreed with him as well. He also said they put their shirt on about every 3-4 weeks. I think there were a lot of misinterpretations in the thread and in the article ;)
GTLifter
06-05-2008, 03:30 PM
Using gear could increase raw strength because your CNS gets used to handling heavier loads. Also, if you are squatting super wide then you should at least wear a pair of shitty single ply briefs to support your hips.
That said the Louie Simmons method of powerlifitng IS NOT the only way to get stronger. It has worked for lots of people and you will probably get stronger training at westside but don't think that it's the best or only way to train.
Beverly McD.
06-05-2008, 03:32 PM
The old saying "More than one way to skin a cat" may apply here.You can't argue with success, and Louie has been very successful.
IliekFude
06-05-2008, 03:37 PM
i don't think anyone in here is arguing you need to increase your raw bench whether shirted lifter or not. I'm just doing as I'm told ie wear briefs, squat super wide. i came to columbus to learn what they're doing there, and that's what lou is telling me to do. im not trying to make an argument about anything here saying it's right or wrong or the best way. The thread was just about something that Louie wrote, and I just relayed a discussion i had with him about the matter. and i'll repeat he told me geared lifting can increase your raw #s--other lifters agreed with him as well. He also said they put their shirt on about every 3-4 weeks. I think there were a lot of misinterpretations in the thread and in the article ;)
No doubt bud! Ignore the irrelavent shit anyone posts and stay on track. Enjoy westside, and learn what you can from lou.
Keep bangin bro!
and uhh... ya if he needs anyone to clean the toilets or anything in exchange for puttin a sleeping bag in the squat rack overnight a few times a month gimme a call lol.
id give up alot just to sit and talk with lou in his own environment.
Ive never met any of them, but westside and lou's articles changed my life nearly 8 years ago and completely reinvented the type of man i am, both in the gym and out and i owe him a debt few would understand and that i doubt i could ever repay.
^one of the girl members there already has the cleaning job locked up. she is also massages everyone there as well i believe. Youre going to have to up that ante lol. I have been learning a lot.
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