Result-producing arm routines

[MadMIck]

Next to "six pack abs," the one muscle group that almost every man and woman wants the most is arms. So, instead of boring you with a ton of arm training physiology and long words like capillarization and coracobrachialis (yawn), and instead of giving you a single arm routine (gets old too fast), I'm going to skip the science and theory and go straight to the good stuff!

In this article, I am simply going to give you a master list - an "anthology" - of the most result-producing arm routines in bodybuilding history!

Here's how I compiled this list: I went back into my old training journals looking for "5 star workouts." What's a 5 star workout? Glad you asked: It's simply part of my "workout rating system." I rate the productivity and intensity of all my workouts on a scale from 1 to 10 and log it in my training journal. After a training cycle of at least 4-6 workouts, I also rate the routine itself on a scale from 1 to 5 (My ultimate goal being to have "10" workouts using "5-star" routines!)

If a new routine ranks a 1 or 2, it gets tossed into the garbage immediately. If it ranks a 3 or 4 it goes back onto the "drawing board" and I rework it to see if it can be modified and boosted to a 5. If the second variation doesn't get a 5, goodbye, it's dumped into the trash bin too.

If it ranks a 5, then the program goes into my book of "5 star workouts" and I come back to it many times over the years when I need arm specialization. For a routine to make it into my 5 star workout book, it has to be a tested and proven growth producer.

I can't take credit for inventing most of these routines - they were inspired by or borrowed from some of the best trainers and bodybuilders in history, and I will give the credit where it's due.

Most of these programs will surely make your arms as strong as they are going to look, but make no mistake - this is a collection of BODYBUILDING routines. If you're hung up exclusively on "functionality," you can just skip this info (and go back to your medicine balls, bungee cords and wobble boards). If, on the other hand, you want a set of biceps and triceps that make you LOOK GOOD sleeveless, then this is for you.
Now, a few important details before you start…


Training Frequency


I recommend repeating these routines no more than twice per week and no less than once per week. Your frequency depends on the split routine you're using. For most of these programs, I recommend a three or four day split with a 2 on 1 off schedule.

If you feel you need more recovery, use a 2 on 1 off, 1 on 1 off or even an every other day routine, just make sure you hit your arms at least once per week.


Tempo


Tempo is the speed of your repetitions. Tempo is noted in several of these routines with a 4 count prescription. For example, a 4020 tempo is performed as follows:


Eccentric (negative/lowering the weight) 4
Stretch/Pause between eccentric and concentric 0
Concentric (positive/lifting the weight) 2
Contraction/pause between concentric and eccentric 0
If tempo is not noted, then you should simply use a "controlled tempo" with the eccentric (lowering weight) slightly slower than the concentric (lifting weight).


Progression


These routines must be performed with diligent progression from one workout to the next. You must add weight with every workout. Because the arms are a small body part, you may need to use "micro-loading," which simply means you patiently increase the weight EVERY WORKOUT, but in very small increments.

For example, most clubs have dumbbells with 5-pound jumps in weight. I like to use 1 ¼ lb. "plate mates" which are magnetic mini weights you can stick on the ends of each dumbbell (they work for barbells too), allowing you to increase in small, 2.5 pound increments (effectively giving you a 22.5 pound dumbbell, etc).


Antagonist Pair Supersets


Supersets are an extremely effective technique for arm training. An antagonistic superset for arms is the pairing of a bicep and tricep exercise with little or no rest between exercises.

Antagonistic supersets are noted with A1 and A2, with A1 being the first exercise, and A2 being the second exercise with no rest in between (if the two exercises were performed in straight set fashion, they would be noted as A1 and B1; three exercises A1, B1, C1, etc)


Same Muscle Group Supersets


Same muscle group supersets are self-explanatory: Two exercises for the same muscle are performed back to back with no rest in between. They are written the same way as antagonistic supersets. For example, A1 is first bicep exercise in superset, A2 is second bicep exercise in superset (no rest between A1 and A2, then regular rest interval after A2 before repeating superset).

Personally, I believe same muscle group supersets are better than antagonistic supersets for bodybuilding purposes (arm size), while antagonistic supersets are better for strength. I recommend using both.


Tri Sets


A tri set is three exercises for the same muscle group performed one after another with little or no rest in between. Tri sets are a step beyond supersets in intensity and difficulty, allowing you to perform a very large volume of work in a very short period of time.

Tri-sets are a superb method for bodybuilding - especially for arm training. Many great bodybuilders such as Larry Scott and trainers such as Vince Gironda have promoted the use of tri sets and supersets almost exclusively for arm specialization. Why? Because they WORK! (Tri sets are noted as A1, A2, A3).


The Routines


Ok, enough preliminaries, let's dive into the best arm routines of all time:


Multi Grip Tri-Set Routine


Variations on the multi grip routine have been floating around for ages, but strength coach Charles Poliquin fine tuned the technique and brought it back into popularity recently in his prolific writings including, "Winning the Arms Race." (Poliquin refers to this technique as the multi pathway routine).

Select three exercises, each with a different grip: pronated (palms down), neutral (palms face each other) and supinated (palms up). Generally, the weakest grip is trained first and the strongest last, but the order of the exercises may be changed for variety and balanced development. (I would recommend staying with the same sequence for the duration of each training cycle, however)


A1 EZ bar Reverse Curl 3 sets X 6-8 reps
A2 Hammer Curl 3 sets X 6-8 reps
A3 EZ barbell Curl 3 sets X 6-8 reps
B1 Tricep Pushdown reverse grip (palms up) 3 sets X 6-8 reps
B2 Tricep pushdown with rope (palms face each other) 3 sets X 6-8 reps
B3 Tricep pushdown regular grip (palms down) 3 sets X 6-8 reps

Click here for a printable log of this workout!


Multi Angle Tri-Set Routine


The multi angle routine is a similar to the multi grip routine except instead of varying the hand position/grip, you vary the angle of the joint. The "multi angle" technique is very similar to the IRONMAN/Steve Holman "Positions of flexion" approach, although they are not always one in the same.

For example, one popular multi-angle favorite for triceps is lying EZ bar extensions performed to the chin, forehead, and behind the head as a tri set. This is multi-angular, but it does not fully work all three positions of flexion, as these are only slight variations in angle.

There are two ways to perform this routine. One way is to do all three exercises in a row with zero rest between exercises. This is very intense and result producing, but will compromise your poundages. Poliquin's solution to the problem is the simple insertion of a 10 second pause between each exercise, which allows greater loads to be used.


A1 Incline dumbbell curl (stretch) 3 sets X 6-8 reps
A2 Seated dumbbell curl (midrange) 3 sets X 6-8 reps
A3 90 degree dumbbell preacher curl (contracted) 3 sets X 6-8 reps
B1 Seated EZ bar tricep extension 3 sets X 6-8 reps
B2 EZ bar tricep extension to forehead 3 sets X 6-8 reps
B3 Decline bench EZ bar tricep extension 3 sets X 6-8 reps




Unilateral Multi Grip Bicep Routine


I don't remember where I found this routine, but I think it was the brainstorm of Australian strength coach Ian King. All I can say is that Ian or whoever originally invented this bicep killer should get a medal for it! Try it and find out why. Perform 10 reps per set, 2 -3 tri sets 0-10 seconds between exercises.


A1 One arm Zottman Dumbbell Curl 3 sets X 10 reps
A2 One arm Dumbbell Preacher Curl 3 sets X 10 reps
A3 One Arm Dumbbell Preacher Hammer Curl 3 sets X 10 reps


Zottman Curl
Click here for a printable log of this workout!


Unilateral Multi Grip Bicep Routine #2


This is a slight variation I've successfully used on the killer combo above. All I did is to flip the order of exercises 2 & 3, substitute reverse dumbbell curl for Zottman curl on exercise number one, and add a forced negative on the reverse curls using the opposite hand. The rep range is slightly lower; 6-8 reps per set with a little bit heavier weight. 3 tri sets, 0 sec rest between exercises, 0 seconds rest between switching arms.


A1 One arm reverse dumbbell Curl with neg. resistance 3 sets X 6-8 reps
A2 One arm Hammer Preacher Curl 3 sets X 6-8 reps
A3 One Arm Dumbbell Preacher Curl 3 sets X 6-8 reps



Gironda's 6 X 6 balanced Arms Routine


This is a variation on Vince Gironda's famous "Balanced Arms" course. Like many bodybuilding gurus, Vince vociferously commanded, "No deviations." Well, shame on me, but after I tried all his programs exactly as he instructed, I never could resist experimenting.

This routine consists of 3 pairs of supersets performed for 6 sets of 6 reps each. No rest is permitted between exercises. Take 90 seconds rest after each superset. Vince's original course suggested doing this routine three times per week. I tested various frequencies and got best results doing this routine once every 4-5 days and I'd recommend no more than twice per week.


A1 Straight Bar Preacher curl 6 sets X 6 reps
A2 Body drag curl 6 sets X 6 reps
B1 Rope extension behind head (lunge position, using high pulley) 6 sets X 6 reps
B2 EZ Bar Pullover and Press 6 sets X 6 reps

C1 Barbell Wrist Curl (roll to fingertips) 6 sets X 6 reps
C2 Barbell reverse drag curl 6 sets X 6 reps



Volume Training: 8 Sets Of 8 - Basic


When performing the classic Vince Gironda 8 sets of 8 program, you select only ONE exercise per body part and you train half your body each session (approximately 5 exercises per workout) for a total of 40 sets. Perform 3-4 workouts per week, each muscle is trained no more than twice per week.

Every rep is performed with deep concentration and intra-muscular contraction ("squeeze" the muscle during every rep. Mental focus and maintenance of tempo are musts. Rest must be kept to 30 seconds or less, ultimately dropping to as low as 15 seconds between sets. On a 3021 tempo (At 6 seconds per rep, each set will take only 48 seconds; by getting your rest intervals down to 20 seconds, you will finish each 8 sets of 8 reps in 9 minutes. With 5 exercises, that's 40 sets per workout in only 45 minutes!

This is decidedly aerobic and growth hormone-inducing, and by using compound exercises (i.e. squats on leg day, rows on back day, etc), this routine can also burn a tremendous amount of body fat. Little or no additional cardio work is necessary on this program.


A1 Thumb Under Dumbbell Curl (palms up/non supinating) 8 sets X 8 reps X 3021 tempo
B1 Close Grip EZ Bar Bench Press 8 sets X 8 reps X 3020 tempo


Click to enlarge.



Volume Training: 8 Sets Of 8 - Advanced


This is the variation on the 8 sets of 8 routine that Vince Gironda gave to elite and genetically gifted bodybuilders like Mohammed Makkawy. This program is performed on a 3 or 4 day split so you can concentrate on only two body parts per session.

Tempos can be a little bit faster (2020 or 2010) on this higher volume program. This allows you to complete the workout in 40 - 45 minutes or so (you could also try 30 minute workouts consisting of two exercises per muscle group, 8 sets of 8 reps per exercise; experiment with the concept)


A1 Barbell Drag Curl 8 sets X 8 reps
B1 Incline Dumbbell curl 8 sets X 8 reps
C1 Hammer curl 8 sets X 8 reps
D1 Close Grip bench Press 8 sets X 8 reps
E1 Flat bench lying 2 dumbbell tricep extension 8 sets X 8 reps
F1 Parallel bar tricep dips 8 sets X 8 reps

For more info on the eight sets of 8 program check out my IRONMAN article here: http://www.fitren.com/res3art.cfm?compid=18&artid=90


Volume Training: 10 Sets Of 10


This program was originally promoted by Vince Gironda. It was later resurrected under the name "German Volume Training" and re-popularized (with some modern improvements) by Charles Poliquin. After it was originally introduced, 10 X 10 faded out of popularity in favor of 3 sets of 3 exercises.

This was largely due to boredom and the belief that one exercise was not enough for complete development. However, 10 sets of 10 will completely "trash" an entire pool of motor units from the repeated efforts on the same exercise, resulting in tremendous muscle size gains.

Simply select one exercise per muscle group and perform 10 sets of 10 reps. It's very important to use the same weight for each set. You will not train to failure or use set extension or high intensity techniques (like negatives or forced reps). This will require that you select a weight that's approximately 60% of your normal 10 rep max.

Rest 90 seconds between sets and maintain a constant tempo on every rep and a constant rest interval between every set. You will work two or at most, three body parts per workout on a three or four day split routine. Each muscle group should be trained once every 5 to 6 days.


A1 Incline Dumbbell Curls 10 sets X 10 reps
A2 Seated EZ Bar tricep extension (French press) 10 sets X 10 reps



Drop Supersets


This program combines elements of two of the best bodybuilding techniques of all time; drop sets and supersets. Select two exercises for the same muscle group and perform each for 6-8 reps with no rest in between. Quickly (less than 10 seconds rest) reduce the poundage (grab lighter set of dumbbells) and then repeat the superset two more times.

That counts as ONE drop-superset (2 exercises X 3 supersets = 6 sets in one drop superset). Rest 120 seconds and repeat one more time (twice at most if you're an "over-achiever").

A typical weight reduction is about 10-15%. Optional: A brief 10 second rest between supersets allows some recovery of strength so that you can keep your poundages up and it alleviates some of the lactic acid burn that might prevent you from doing 6 sets in a row non stop. Perform two or at most three drop supersets (the weights given are just examples)


A1 Standing hammer curl 2-3 sets X 6-8 reps 40 lbs
A2 Standing palms up Dumbbell Curl 2-3 sets X 6-8 reps 40 lbs
Rest 0-10 sec

A3 standing hammer curl 2-3 sets X 6-8 reps 35 lbs
A4 Standing palms up Dumbbell Curl 2-3 sets X 6-8 reps X 35 lbs

Rest 0-10 sec

A5 standing hammer curl 2-3 sets X 6-8 reps 30 lbs
A6 Standing palms up Dumbbell Curl 2-3 sets X 6-8 reps X 30 lbs

Rest 120 seconds, then repeat 1-2 more times


Larry Scott's Favorite Arm Routine


Larry Scott was the first Mr. Olympia and his claim to fame was the most mind blowing set of biceps and triceps the bodybuilding world had ever seen up until the time Scott appeared on the scene. Larry Scott's favorite arm building apparatus was the preacher curl bench, which also bears his name (the Scott curl bench).



Larry believed that triceps grow the best with supersets and biceps grow the best with tri-sets (and who's gonna argue with him?) His favorite bicep routine was a tri-set performed on the preacher bench and a superset combo for triceps. Larry also frequently employed "burns", which were quick quarter reps (partials) performed after each set.


A1 Dumbbell preacher curl, loose form 3-4 sets X 6 reps + 4-5 burns
A2 Straight Bar preacher curl, strict form 3-4 sets X 6 reps + 4-5 burns
A3 EZ bar reverse curl, loose form 3-4 sets X 6 reps + 4-5 burns
B1 Close Grip Bench Press with EZ Bar 4-5 sets X 6 reps + 4-5 burns
B2 Kneeling twin pedestal tricep rope extension* 4-5 sets X 6 reps + 4-5 burns

*The twin pedestal bench is a special bench for the kneeling rope tricep extension. It is simply two pads for the elbows with a space for your head in between.

It was originally built by Vince Gironda and Scott later began manufacturing his own version. If you don't have the apparatus for this exercise, you can simply do a rope extension facing away from the weight stack from a high pulley in a lunge position.




Pre-Exhaust Routine


Pre exhaustion is a technique popularized Robert Kennedy of Muscle Mag International. Pre-exhaustion supersets are performed by selecting an isolation exercise and following it with a compound exercise, with no rest in between the two. In the case of biceps, the natural choice for the compound exercise is the close grip chin up. Your volume can range from three to five sets, depending on your split routine and experience level.


A1 Barbell curl 3-5 set X 8-12 reps
A2 Close grip pull up 3-5 sets X AMRAP
B1 Kneeling V-Bar low pulley cable extension 3-5 sets X 8-12 reps
B2 Close grip bench press 3-5 sets X 8-12 reps




Don Ross 4 Rep System #1


There are many variations on multi rep programs to be found throughout the bodybuilding literature. This one is by Don Ross from his book "Muscle blasting" with Robert Kennedy.

Select 4 exercises and perform each exercise with a different repetition (RM) bracket. These exercises are not supersetted. Rest intervals between sets are 60-90 seconds. Two sets should be enough for most people, three sets max.


A1 Incline Dumbbell Curl 2-3 sets X 6 reps
B1 Hammer Curl 2-3 sets X 8 reps
C1 Preacher curl 2- 3 sets X 12
D1 Overhead Pulley curl 2-3 sets X 20 reps
A1 Close Grip Bench Press 2-3 set X 6 reps
B1 Decline Bench 2 Dumbbell Extension 2-3 sets X 8 reps
C1 Dumbbell kickbacks 2- 3 sets X 12
D1 Tricep Rope pressdown 2-3 sets X 20 reps

Note: You can easily use this same principle with only three exercises and three rep ranges or even two exercises and two rep ranges as in the 6-20 method. In either case, the heavier, lower rep sets come first and the higher rep sets last.




Gironda 4 rep system


Another variation of the 4 rep system is to perform four sets on each exercise with each of the four sets using a different rep range. Don Ross liked the 12, 8, 6, 20 rep protocol, while Vince Gironda's famous variation on this system (which he wrote an entire course about) was 10, 8, 6, 15.


A1 Incline Dumbbell Curl 4 sets X 10, 8, 6, 15 reps
B1 Barbell curl 4 sets X 10, 8, 6, 15 reps
A1 Close Grip Bench Press 4 sets X 10, 8, 6, 15 reps
B1 Decline Bench 2 Dumbbell Extension 4 sets X 10, 8, 6, 15 reps



Poliquin's 3 Rep Tri-Set System: 6-12-25


Yet another multi rep program, the 6-12-25 system is favored by Charles Poliquin. Using the Poliquin method, you select three exercises, the first with stretch position emphasis, the second with mid range emphasis, and the third a constant tension, peak contraction exercise. Unlike the Ross and Gironda method, these exercises are tri-setted.


A1 Incline dumbbell curl 2-3 sets X 6 reps
10 seconds rest

A2 Barbell Curls 2-3 sets X 12 reps

10 seconds rest

A3 Overhead Cable curl 2-3 sets X 25 reps

120 seconds rest, repeat 2-3 tri sets

B1 Kneeling V-Bar low pulley cable extension 2-3 sets X 6 reps
B2 Lying Tricep extension to forehead 2-3 sets X 12 reps
B3 2 dumbbell kickbacks 2-3 sets X 25 reps

120 seconds rest, repeat 2-3 tri sets



If you're tired of the same old conventional "three sets of 8 - 12" straight set routines and if you're frustrated with your progress, then put some of these 5 star programs to the test… I GUARANTEE you are going to see some of the best arm development of your life!

[Stephen]

If you're tired of the same old conventional "three sets of 8 - 12" straight set routines and if you're frustrated with your progress, then put some of these 5 star programs to the test… I GUARANTEE you are going to see some of the best arm development of your life!

Or better yet, do heavy rowing, deads, and chins...

[JEAH]

Or better yet, do heavy rowing, deads, and chins...

No shit, I hardly ever do direct bicep work and they still grow fine. I think people put a little too much effort into certain muscles when the effort should be in others.

[Stephen]

No shit, I hardly ever do direct bicep work and they still grow fine. I think people put a little too much effort into certain muscles when the effort should be in others.

Yeah, despite my personal icon it is a rare occasion that I do any isolated arm exercises like bicep curls. I'll throw them in at the end of my routine every so often just because I enjoy doing them. No other reason really. Muscles grow best from the lifts that work the entire body as a system. Squats, deads, presses, rows, cleans, and snatches will give your arms all the work they need.

[jpt]

which way to the beach?

[DjEclipse]

Or better yet, do heavy rowing, deads, and chins...

Fo sho.


There was an article I read (someone posted on EF), where a university did a studdy having a group of people lift heavy compound movements only. The other lifted heavy compound movements, but also did curls/ bicep isolation.

The group that didn't do any curls do any kind of isolation bicep movements, had the same increase in arm size as those that trained bies...

Basically, cUrlZ/ doing isolation movements for bies are a waste of time.

[DjEclipse]

oops, it was me that posted the link ot the atricle on T-Nation.

Here's a little quote from the article, talking about the studdy.


The Effect of Supplemental Isolated Weight-Training Exercises on Upper-Arm Size and Upper-Body Strength

Human Performance Laboratory, Ball State University, Muncie, IN.
NSCA Conference Abstract (2000)

The researchers compared the effects of a weight training program on 5RM strength and arm circumference and divided the subjects into two groups. Group 1 performed four compound upper body exercises, while Group 2 used the same program but included biceps curls and triceps extensions.

The results showed that both groups significantly increased strength and arm size

However, the addition of direct arm training to group two produced no additional effect on strength or arm circumference after 10 weeks of training.

The additional localized training did not result in anything that the bigger compound exercises didn't provide.

Here's the entire write up... It's number 5.

TESTOSTERONE NATION - Cosgrove's Five Ah-Ha! Moments (http://www.t-nation.com/article/performance_training/cosgroves_five_ahha_moments)

And of course after posting this on EF, everyone came in saying how their 30 sets of curls/ day caused their arms to get HUgE YO!

lol

[DjEclipse]

Oh, and the "secret" to 6 pack abs is nothing more then reducing BF% so there is no longer a big ass layer of fat on top of those abs, allowing everyone to see the abs under it. lol

Not really a big secret.

[IliekFude]

man i dont think ive ever read so much info on how to make an arm grow.
do some kinda curl, some kidna tricep work and eat food and sleep and they'll grow.
make sure ya make progress in weight or reps/sets n thats all there is too it.
no need to re-invent the hydrogen bomb.
good luck bud.

[macrophage69 alpha]

emphasis on pump over moving the weight, particularly when there is fascial restriction issues.

note- lifting heavy will induce growth, but powerlifting is more about CNS than hypertrophy.

[JEAH]

emphasis on pump over moving the weight, particularly when there is fascial restriction issues.

note- lifting heavy will induce growth, but powerlifting is more about CNS than hypertrophy.

Most powerlifters do some rep work as well. We get the best of both worlds!

[bigleemurali]

man i dont think ive ever read so much info on how to make an arm grow.
do some kinda curl, some kidna tricep work and eat food and sleep and they'll grow.
make sure ya make progress in weight or reps/sets n thats all there is too it.
no need to re-invent the hydrogen bomb.
good luck bud.

I second you.
But i have had a weak arm in the early part of my life about a couple of years ago.. The things which helped me were:
Analyze the anatomy of the muscle:
the work of the biceps is not only curling, but pulling and even supination

Similarly for triceps it is extension and pushing

So in our arm routine if we incorporate all the actions which the muscle is intended to do we should have a successful and productive arm routine...

cheers

[Iron God]

And make sure you stretch the muscle in between sets for arms. Alot of times if the weight is too heavy the workload shifts to a stronger muscle

[Polski Byk]

Most of the guys I know with big developed arms rarely ever do them. They pull and press heavy. Its actually pretty simple what is gonna stimulate growth more, pulling 500 or curling 45-50, overhead pressing 300, or doing push downs with 100?

[DjEclipse]

Most of the guys I know with big developed arms rarely ever do them. They pull and press heavy. Its actually pretty simple what is gonna stimulate growth more, pulling 500 or curling 45-50, overhead pressing 300, or doing push downs with 100?


What are push downs?

[DjEclipse]

Another part from the link I posted above.


Twin brothers eating the same diet, working at the same job. Three times a week for the next 52 weeks, both brothers undertake a progressive resistance-training program, each adding weight, sets, or reps in a logical manner over the whole year. One difference: the first brother does deadlifts only. The second brother does arm curls only.
Twins

After a year, who do you think will have bigger arms? Obviously it will be the first brother, who put more overall stress and load through his system. Even though he didn't bend his elbow at all.

Charles Poliquin is fond of saying in order to gain an inch on your arm, you'd have to gain 10 pounds of muscle mass. If that's true, it'll happen a lot faster with an exercise like the deadlift than it will with the dumbbell curl.

The bottom line is that muscle growth is a systemic issue, not a localized one. If you put a stress on the forearm only, of course it would grow, but that growth would be limited because the systemic load is small. If you did deadlifts, on the other hand, the systemic load would be so big, everything would grow.

[Stephen]

oops, it was me that posted the link ot the atricle on T-Nation.

Here's a little quote from the article, talking about the studdy.



Here's the entire write up... It's number 5.

TESTOSTERONE NATION - Cosgrove's Five Ah-Ha! Moments (http://www.t-nation.com/article/performance_training/cosgroves_five_ahha_moments)

And of course after posting this on EF, everyone came in saying how their 30 sets of curls/ day caused their arms to get HUgE YO!

lol

So I would assume that some other exercises like calf or shoulder raises would fall into the same category as direct arm training...totally pointless since they are localized exercises versus systematic. Correct?

[DjEclipse]

So I would assume that some other exercises like calf or shoulder raises would fall into the same category as direct arm training...totally pointless since they are localized exercises versus systematic. Correct?

I believe for the most part they are a waste of time. The only reason for doing such things would be if you develop a weak point that needs extra attention.

And for most people, especially people just starting out, or that haven't been training that long, there are no weak points, everything is weak. ;)

[TheSuaveOne]

Basically, cUrlZ/ doing isolation movements for bies are a waste of time.

Isn't it great that you can have your opinion here, and I can disagree with it?

[DjEclipse]

Isn't it great that you can have your opinion here, and I can disagree with it?

For sure it is. That is what the message boards are all about. No?

I didn't do the study, the study was done by the Human Performance Laboratory at Ball State University.

[DjEclipse]

double post...

[TheSuaveOne]

For sure it is. That is what the message boards are all about. No?

I didn't do the study, the study was done by the Human Performance Laboratory at Ball State University.

You can provide all of the studies you like. Unless I was one of the test subjects, I prefer to rely on actual work that I preform. To date, isolation work for my arms, give "me" my best results. To be honest, that is the only data, I care about...la

[Stephen]

Isn't it great that you can have your opinion here, and I can disagree with it?

I don't think you're really disagreeing with an "opinion" once a scientific study has been done by a major university. The logic is pretty clear...exercises that work the body as a system will require a much greater overload than localized exercises, and will therefore result in more muscle growth.

They gave a perfect example...do you think your biceps would get more stress from a 100-pound barbell curl or a 500-pound deadlift? It doesn't matter if you bend at the elbow or not...it's all abour microtrauma, and the more stress you place on the muscles the more they will grow. You can even check out some of the major powerlifters like Ed Coan who never does any direct bicep work and his arms are like tree trunks.

But then again, there are still people wandering around who think that the earth is flat, despite the science...

[Stephen]

You can provide all of the studies you like. Unless I was one of the test subjects, I prefer to rely on actual work that I preform. To date, isolation work for my arms, give "me" my best results. To be honest, that is the only data, I care about...la

So have you done a self-study to confirm this? Have you gone a year or so without any direct arm training and compared it to your previous results? If not, then you have no real "data" to analyze...

[TheSuaveOne]

So have you done a self-study to confirm this? Have you gone a year or so without any direct arm training and compared it to your previous results? If not, then you have no real "data" to analyze...

Yes, I have. My arms shrunk.

Thank you, the end...la

[solidspine]

I got tired just reading all those exercises,


Wonder how many of you have had serious arm injuries?

I tore my biceps on the left arm and the triceps off on the right arm,


Only had the right arm repaired-big mistake.

[DjEclipse]

Yes, I have. My arms shrunk.

Thank you, the end...la

Can you elaborate on your own personal study?

What lifts did you do, what was your w/o structure, durration for each method of training etc.

I would like to see how your study compares to that of a scientific university study.

[TheSuaveOne]

Followed the Bill Starr program, strictly for about 9 months, (yes, there is actually 3 sets of bar curls in program per week). Had great gains in strength and size...except for my arm size. They shrunk, while the remainder of my body grew.

[Stephen]

Yes, I have. My arms shrunk.

Thank you, the end...la

Okay Suave..I don't know you from a hole in the wall, but I am more than prepared to call BS on this one. Your arms will not "shrink" if you are doing heavy rowing, deadlifts, pressing, and chins. I don't even see how that is scientifically possible. If you are pulling and pushing several hundred pounds per rep, then how in the hell could your muscle get smaller? The tearing of your muscle fibers every time you progress in weight will keep the muscle in a constant state of adaptation (growing larger to handle increasing weight). The only way that a muscle could get smaller is if you pretty much stop lifting altogether.

[TheSuaveOne]

Call bullshit all you want. It doesn't change the fact that my arms atrophied when I ran the Bill Starr program. Within a month of going to a more isolation style routine, the arms started growing again.

[Nick]

This is always a remarkably controversial topic re: TSO's arms shrinking on the 5x5. I would say that he has maintained this position long enough that it simply is proof positive that no one routine meets the specific needs and wants of all people, and its on us to find what works for us.

Not much of a revelation.

[JG1]

To many powerlifters around...lol

If you want to maximize development of your arms, you have to directly work them. I don't care how many squats, deadlifts, rows, bench's, overhead presses you do. They need to be worked.

[kook]

I just wrap the tape measure around my arm twice and when I see 24 then I'm happy

[Stephen]

To many powerlifters around...lol

If you want to maximize development of your arms, you have to directly work them. I don't care how many squats, deadlifts, rows, bench's, overhead presses you do. They need to be worked.

Well all of the exercises that you listed are what actually work them and make the muscles grow. The "direct" work is child's play compared to the major compound lifts. Doing curls and extensions in a routine that involves squats, deads, rows, chins, and heavy pressing is kind of like throwing a grenade on Hiroshima the day after the atom bomb.

[JG1]

Well all of the exercises that you listed are what actually work them and make the muscles grow. The "direct" work is child's play compared to the major compound lifts. Doing curls and extensions in a routine that involves squats, deads, rows, chins, and heavy pressing is kind of like throwing a grenade on Hiroshima the day after the atom bomb.


So every bodybuilder is just waisting their time training arms directly then huh?

I'd like to see some pics of arms that don't get any direct work.....just want to see how impressive they are.

BTW I do all the above excersizes, and still do about 12 direct HEAVY work sets for triceps and 9 for biceps. My arms would lose size if I didn't train them directly, and they require a decent amount of direct volume training to hypertrophy.

[slappydog]

This is always a remarkably controversial topic re: TSO's arms shrinking on the 5x5. I would say that he has maintained this position long enough that it simply is proof positive that no one routine meets the specific needs and wants of all people, and its on us to find what works for us.

Not much of a revelation.

Right on the money, everybody is different. This has been argued for ages and probably will continue to be argued. Does anybody know if any winning champion bodybuilders, current or old school, skip direct arm isolation exercises?

[Halfway]

Bicep work is necessary to keep the elbows healthy imo, and tricep work can help a lot with pressing. I treat them like any other assistance exercise and go for multiple sets of sub, sub max effort high reps.

When I stop doing this, my arms shrink 1/4" in a couple of weeks.

[Stephen]

So every bodybuilder is just waisting their time training arms directly then huh?
If you believe in scientific research, then yes. On the rare occasion that I mix any barbell curls or close-grips into my routine, it's only for 3 sets per week and my arms are plenty big.


I'd like to see some pics of arms that don't get any direct work.....just want to see how impressive they are?
Well one guy who never trains biceps is Ed Coan. You can see pics of him on the front page of Strength Online (http://www.deepsquatter.com). As far as any particular bobybuilders I wouldn't know because I don't really follow that aspect of weight lifting.


BTW I do all the above excersizes, and still do about 12 direct HEAVY work sets for triceps and 9 for biceps. My arms would lose size if I didn't train them directly, and they require a decent amount of direct volume training to hypertrophy.
So explain to me how curls and extensions done with about 1/4 the weight of heavy compound exercises is going to create more microtrauma and muscle growth. Seriously...if I am deadlifting 500 pounds and tearing up every muscle fiber in my biceps, what good is going to do to then do 3 sets of 125-pound curls? What could those curls possible add that the deads didn't already take care of?

[neo22]

Call bullshit all you want. It doesn't change the fact that my arms atrophied when I ran the Bill Starr program. Within a month of going to a more isolation style routine, the arms started growing again.

I agree. Isolation is key for bodybuilders.

[neo22]

If you believe in scientific research, then yes. On the rare occasion that I mix any barbell curls or close-grips into my routine, it's only for 3 sets per week and my arms are plenty big.


Well one guy who never trains biceps is Ed Coan. You can see pics of him on the front page of Strength Online (http://www.deepsquatter.com). As far as any particular bobybuilders I wouldn't know because I don't really follow that aspect of weight lifting.


So explain to me how curls and extensions done with about 1/4 the weight of heavy compound exercises is going to create more microtrauma and muscle growth. Seriously...if I am deadlifting 500 pounds and tearing up every muscle fiber in my biceps, what good is going to do to then do 3 sets of 125-pound curls? What could those curls possible add that the deads didn't already take care of?

You are not going to tear up muscle fibers in the bicep by doing deadlifts. Not enough ROM.

[slappydog]

I googled Ed Coan and found several articles taken from powerlifting USA magazine. Coans workout consisted of many accessory isolation exercises. Laterals, tricep pushdowns, preacher curls, db flys.

[Stephen]

You are not going to tear up muscle fibers in the bicep by doing deadlifts. Not enough ROM.

ROM is important, but the stress that curls put on the biceps pales in comparison to an exercise that uses probably 4x the weight (or more). Besides, weighted chin-ups would provide a much better ROM and its a full upper body movement.

[Stephen]

I googled Ed Coan and found several articles taken from powerlifting USA magazine. Coans workout consisted of many accessory isolation exercises. Laterals, tricep pushdowns, preacher curls, db flys.

Here is an interview with Ed Coan. Notice question number 4:

Ed Coan (http://www.criticalbench.com/Ed-Coan.htm)

[Evidence]

Most of the guys I know with big developed arms rarely ever do them. They pull and press heavy. Its actually pretty simple what is gonna stimulate growth more, pulling 500 or curling 45-50, overhead pressing 300, or doing push downs with 100?


You beat me too it, thank you. I was just going to say thanks for the effort you put into posting all this into an arm workout. But if you watch guys that do strongman for example, their arm development is quite impressive on all the men. Most of them if not all of them don't even train their arms that much. When you pull that heavy and push that heavy, your arms will grow if you're eating and sleeping. Sorry to basically just repeat word for word what you just said polski, but i guess that's my way of saying i agree.

[Biter]

I do my curls, they seem to help my arm development. /shrug

[slappydog]

Here is an interview with Ed Coan. Notice question number 4:

Ed Coan (http://www.criticalbench.com/Ed-Coan.htm)

I saw that interview. There are others out there where he says he does curls. I guess he contradicts himself. There is an interview on T-Nation where he says he does curls, not to the extreme a bodybuilder would do them, but he does them. FYI I agree about not needing direct arm work to get big arms. I do believe a competitive bodybuilder needs direct isolation work.
Here is a paste from that interview. If you need the link let me know.


T: Do you work out over the weekend?

Coan: Saturday I come in, do some close-grip benches, then I work my shoulders, which is usually behind-the-necks or seated militaries. Then I do front and side laterals, maybe a couple sets of curls, then I work my forearms and a little grip. I've been working my forearms and grip more lately.

[Stephen]

I saw that interview. There are others out there where he says he does curls. I guess he contradicts himself. There is an interview on T-Nation where he says he does curls, not to the extreme a bodybuilder would do them, but he does them. FYI I agree about not needing direct arm work to get big arms. I do believe a competitive bodybuilder needs direct isolation work.
Here is a paste from that interview. If you need the link let me know.


T: Do you work out over the weekend?

Coan: Saturday I come in, do some close-grip benches, then I work my shoulders, which is usually behind-the-necks or seated militaries. Then I do front and side laterals, maybe a couple sets of curls, then I work my forearms and a little grip. I've been working my forearms and grip more lately.

All I can guess is that he is talking about the curls for core work. Otherwise, he most definitely contradicts himself.

[DjEclipse]

You are not going to tear up muscle fibers in the bicep by doing deadlifts. Not enough ROM.

Are you kidding me?

Then you're not lifting heavy enough.

When you're puling 2-3x your BW from the floor you are recruting every muscle in your body, including the bies. You don't need ROM to stress a muscle.


From the madcow 5 x 5 training primer.


Well what's the best way to get a lot of hypertrophy for those looking to add muscle mass? Well, the body is a system and adapts best as a system. This is what makes squats, deads, rows, cleans, presses, and snatches very effective. You are using a large portion of your body's musculature to move a heavy weight (think intensity) through a fundamental range of motion. This is full body lifting stressing a large portion of the body's musculature all at once (microtrauma - especially good to bring up weak links and solidify the body's capability to work well as a single unit - and this is what "functional" is all about anyway). So adding weight to these exercises should net hypertrophy over the entire body. And we all know how hard it is to grow a muscle in isolation and that the body tends to stay within reasonable parameters of balance, just look at the curl boys who otherwise would all have huge arms - the training and workload is there and hitting the target muscle, the body just doesn't adapt like that past a fairly marginal point.

[TheSuaveOne]

And yet, I get growth in my arms when I hit them directly. Yes, I do deadlifts, squats, penching and rows throughout the week. But without direct work, my arms do not grow.

Why is this so tough for you to understand?

[Stephen]

And yet, I get growth in my arms when I hit them directly. Yes, I do deadlifts, squats, penching and rows throughout the week. But without direct work, my arms do not grow.

Why is this so tough for you to understand?

Because that position has no scientific basis whatsoever. It's no different than me coming on here and saying "Whenever I eat green beans, tuna, and cottage cheese I get fat as hell, but whenever I switch over to cookies and candy bars I get ripped!!!"

It is a scientifc fact that the more stress and microtrauma that you put on a muscle, then the larger it will grow. Curls and extensions simply can not compete with the heavy compound exercises in this area. This is not a "well it works for some people, but not others" type of issue. A bicep curl does not match a deadlift, chin-up, or even a heavy dumbbell row in terms of overall stress to the bicep. Tricep extensions will never match heavy presses or dips. The only way that someone could see more growth from these types of minor league exercises is if they didn't bother doing the compound lifts at all.

[IliekFude]

Because that position has no scientific basis whatsoever. It's no different than me coming on here and saying "Whenever I eat green beans, tuna, and cottage cheese I get fat as hell, but whenever I switch over to cookies and candy bars I get ripped!!!"

It is a scientifc fact that the more stress and microtrauma that you put on a muscle, then the larger it will grow. Curls and extensions simply can not compete with the heavy compound exercises in this area. This is not a "well it works for some people, but not others" type of issue. A bicep curl does not match a deadlift, chin-up, or even a heavy dumbbell row in terms of overall stress to the bicep. Tricep extensions will never match heavy presses or dips. The only way that someone could see more growth from these types of minor league exercises is if they didn't bother doing the compound lifts at all.

i hear ya and im with ya mostly but the thing alot of people are missing is that bodybuilders carry around a perpetual pump often that powerlifters/strongmen do not.
their high rep concentration work produces sarcoplasmic hypertrophy which is basically volumization and this is also why pro bodybuilders shrink noticeably much more so when they retire or stop lifting when compared to pro powerlifters or strongmen who retire or quit.

sarcoplasmic hypertrophy = high rep perpetual pump / fluid mass
myofibrilar hypertrophy = the result of heavy and/or explosive weight training and creates more keepable and useful muscle imo.

SO, to make a long story short, if suaveone was used to carrying around alot of volumization from a high rep style of training, then its very concievable that he'd lose some of his measurements by switching to a myofibrilar style of training because of de-volumization but it doesnt actually have to mean he lost muscle.

[A L]

i hear ya and im with ya mostly but the thing alot of people are missing is that bodybuilders carry around a perpetual pump often that powerlifters/strongmen do not.
their high rep concentration work produces sarcoplasmic hypertrophy which is basically volumization and this is also why pro bodybuilders shrink noticeably much more so when they retire or stop lifting when compared to pro powerlifters or strongmen who retire or quit.

sarcoplasmic hypertrophy = high rep perpetual pump / fluid mass
myofibrilar hypertrophy = the result of heavy and/or explosive weight training and creates more keepable and useful muscle imo.

SO, to make a long story short, if suaveone was used to carrying around alot of volumization from a high rep style of training, then its very concievable that he'd lose some of his measurements by switching to a myofibrilar style of training because of de-volumization but it doesnt actually have to mean he lost muscle.

Myofibrilar? You can't even spell FOOD....

:hilarious:

[TheSuaveOne]

Because that position has no scientific basis whatsoever. It's no different than me coming on here and saying "Whenever I eat green beans, tuna, and cottage cheese I get fat as hell, but whenever I switch over to cookies and candy bars I get ripped!!!"

It is a scientifc fact that the more stress and microtrauma that you put on a muscle, then the larger it will grow. Curls and extensions simply can not compete with the heavy compound exercises in this area. This is not a "well it works for some people, but not others" type of issue. A bicep curl does not match a deadlift, chin-up, or even a heavy dumbbell row in terms of overall stress to the bicep. Tricep extensions will never match heavy presses or dips. The only way that someone could see more growth from these types of minor league exercises is if they didn't bother doing the compound lifts at all.

And yet you missed the part where I stated I did do those compound lifts, but then by adding isolation lifts, I grew more. Not sure there is anything else more scientific then cause and effect...la

[IliekFude]

Myofibrilar? You can't even spell FOOD....

:hilarious:

:thefinger:

[matt1990]

I really dont find a point in targeting my Arms directly, its never personally worked for me I'd rather stick to doing core lifts and do what stephen said and they still grow fine. The only thing i do once a week for arms is a barbell curl. Other then that. I don't even bother really man. If i needed a routine to jack my arms up I would goto Muscle Mag International, and get there magizine :D lol worked for my pal Aaron.

Matt~

[TheSuaveOne]

That's great...for you.

[Biter]

As luck would have it (or wouldn't, in my case), I'll have to put this to the test personally. I just saw my doctor for my elbow, it turns out I have an impinged ulnar nerve. I have to lay off direct bicep/tricep work for awhile.

[IliekFude]

As luck would have it (or wouldn't, in my case), I'll have to put this to the test personally. I just saw my doctor for my elbow, it turns out I have an impinged ulnar nerve. I have to lay off direct bicep/tricep work for awhile.

like i mentioned, yr end results should be pretty predictable imo.
if yr training them lighter directly but with supersets and tons of sets and all kindsa volume (like 10 sets of 15-20 with 95lbs straight bb curls followed by other sets of other types of high rep curls for comparison purposes) then stop, you will see a fairly significant loss in measurement imo.
if yr training them heavier directly (for instance 3 sets of 5 with straightbb curls using 155lbs) and stop the direct training you wont see much loss imo.
reason being the biology i touched on earlier.

[Biter]

Ah cool. I'm training heavy at the moment, albeit limited by the impingement. I figured I wouldn't see much of a drop - I'm almost done with the weight cycling I'm doing at the moment so I'll probably actually grow a bit in the arm area.

[getjacked]

Basically, cUrlZ/ doing isolation movements for bies are a waste of time.
personally i don't agree at all. i think lack of direct work to any muscle is not a good idea. first, it increases chance of injury.. i compete in strongman and plenty of strongman that are elite level pro's i know do lots of curls to help prevent tears on tires, stones, etc.

second, direct bicep work has been said by top level benchers (luyando, kennelly, etc) to help them a lot with 1) pain in the tendon 2) elbow and 3) on the descent of the bench

third, plenty of elite level powerlifters have attributed tears during an under/over grip while deadlifting to lack of direct bicep work.

lastly in my own experience my biceps didn't grow until i started doing curls. i hate curls, i think doing them blows.. but i didn't see much growth til i added curls

and last lastly, if your goal is purely physique, just about every top bodybuilder including natural competitors do curls. do what they do.

[silver_shadow]

personally i don't agree at all. i think lack of direct work to any muscle is not a good idea. first, it increases chance of injury.. i compete in strongman and plenty of strongman that are elite level pro's i know do lots of curls to help prevent tears on tires, stones, etc.

second, direct bicep work has been said by top level benchers (luyando, kennelly, etc) to help them a lot with 1) pain in the tendon 2) elbow and 3) on the descent of the bench

third, plenty of elite level powerlifters have attributed tears during an under/over grip while deadlifting to lack of direct bicep work.

lastly in my own experience my biceps didn't grow until i started doing curls. i hate curls, i think doing them blows.. but i didn't see much growth til i added curls

and last lastly, if your goal is purely physique, just about every top bodybuilder including natural competitors do curls. do what they do.
yea i can relate to this.... it just seemed natural that adding in a few sets of curls as accessory lifts would only help in deads and bench press. i guess i have a confirmation for that now... although i hate curls and want to get them over with ASAP. i think halfway mentioned this as well a little earlier. i do have a problem with the other extreme of curling TOO much though... something alot of BB wannabes do alot of.

[DjEclipse]

personally i don't agree at all. i think lack of direct work to any muscle is not a good idea. first, it increases chance of injury.. i compete in strongman and plenty of strongman that are elite level pro's i know do lots of curls to help prevent tears on tires, stones, etc.

second, direct bicep work has been said by top level benchers (luyando, kennelly, etc) to help them a lot with 1) pain in the tendon 2) elbow and 3) on the descent of the bench

third, plenty of elite level powerlifters have attributed tears during an under/over grip while deadlifting to lack of direct bicep work.

lastly in my own experience my biceps didn't grow until i started doing curls. i hate curls, i think doing them blows.. but i didn't see much growth til i added curls

and last lastly, if your goal is purely physique, just about every top bodybuilder including natural competitors do curls. do what they do.

So they do bie work to prevent injury. Do they do heavier weight, low reps, or lighter weight, higher reps?

[TheSuaveOne]

Usually, enough weight to do between 12-20 reps per set.

[silver_shadow]

Usually, enough weight to do between 12-20 reps per set.

is that what you do or were you replying to dj's question?

[JG1]

It all comes down to this.

If you're a powerlifter/weightlifter/whatever, you don't need supplemental arm work except maybe to prevent injury.

If you consider yourself a bodybuilder, and care how you look....not just about moving weight around in the gym, you need to work your biceps/triceps just as hard as any other muscle group. Squats, OHP's, benchs, deads, rows aint gonna cut it. Although if you ARE a bodybuilder you're training w/ a multitude of movements and not just the big 5.

[DjEclipse]

Usually, enough weight to do between 12-20 reps per set.

So light weight higher reps.

For some reason when ever I actually do curls the outside of my elbows actually hurt. It's the only time it hurts. I use strict form, no swinging etc. But do lower reps of 7-8.

[TheSuaveOne]

is that what you do or were you replying to dj's question?


That's what I do, but I would imagine anyone that does curls for size as opposed to power would do between 8-20 reps per set. Doing heavy curls will definately give one a better chance at injury. I have no desire to watch my bicep roll up my arm like a window shade.

[TheSuaveOne]

So light weight higher reps.

For some reason when ever I actually do curls the outside of my elbows actually hurt. It's the only time it hurts. I use strict form, no swinging etc. But do lower reps of 7-8.

And for me, when I follow more of a power lifting regime, my joints are the first thing to start hurting. Switching to higher reps with lower weight has always corrected that problem, and thus why I switch off from different types of training throughout the year.

[Stephen]

So light weight higher reps.

For some reason when ever I actually do curls the outside of my elbows actually hurt. It's the only time it hurts. I use strict form, no swinging etc. But do lower reps of 7-8.

I have had a similar issue when doing any type of bicep curls (straight bar, EZ bar, dumbbells, or hammer). I would train with a weight heavy enough to do 6-8 reps for about 3 sets. I would get severe pain just beneath my bicep (in that crease where the arms bends), and my brachialis would hurt like a mother fucker. I was having all of this arm pain, and even though I was curling up to 165 pounds, I really wasn't seeing any returns for all the pain I was putting my arms through. Now I do basic compound movements like weighted chin-ups which are pain free and my arms grow like a weed. I definitely buy into the what the scientific studies have shown on this one...

[DjEclipse]

I have had a similar issue when doing any type of bicep curls (straight bar, EZ bar, dumbbells, or hammer). I would train with a weight heavy enough to do 6-8 reps for about 3 sets. I would get severe pain just beneath my bicep (in that crease where the arms bends), and my brachialis would hurt like a mother fucker. I was having all of this arm pain, and even though I was curling up to 165 pounds, I really wasn't seeing any returns for all the pain I was putting my arms through. Now I do basic compound movements like weighted chin-ups which are pain free and my arms grow like a weed. I definitely buy into the what the scientific studies have shown on this one...

ya, that's the thing, I don't feel any pain when doing weighted chins or anything else...

[getjacked]

I have had a similar issue when doing any type of bicep curls (straight bar, EZ bar, dumbbells, or hammer). I would train with a weight heavy enough to do 6-8 reps for about 3 sets. I would get severe pain just beneath my bicep (in that crease where the arms bends), and my brachialis would hurt like a mother fucker. I was having all of this arm pain, and even though I was curling up to 165 pounds, I really wasn't seeing any returns for all the pain I was putting my arms through. Now I do basic compound movements like weighted chin-ups which are pain free and my arms grow like a weed. I definitely buy into the what the scientific studies have shown on this one...

yes you buy into the "scientific" studies but you also use your own personal experience as your decision maker, yes? for example, if all the science said that this and that did this and that, but it didn't work for you, would you still do what science said?

thats the point. you cannot ever dismiss personal anecdotes/personal experiences, because when it comes to this game they are more important than science.

in this thread you have dismissed other peoples personal experiences and opinions based on "science" yet you yourself use your own personal experience for justification of why you don't do curls. everybody is different.

[Stephen]

yes you buy into the "scientific" studies but you also use your own personal experience as your decision maker, yes? for example, if all the science said that this and that did this and that, but it didn't work for you, would you still do what science said?

thats the point. you cannot ever dismiss personal anecdotes/personal experiences, because when it comes to this game they are more important than science.

in this thread you have dismissed other peoples personal experiences and opinions based on "science" yet you yourself use your own personal experience for justification of why you don't do curls. everybody is different.

Well even though I once did curls on a weekly basis, I never held the opinion that they were an absolute necessity for muscle growth in the arms. I just wasn't sure so I did them just in case. Once I saw that a scientific study had been done to show that compound exercises provide all of the work needed for muscle growth in the arms, then it seemed to me that the debate was over (unless there are some opposing studies done aside from "personal experience").

The "what works for some may not work for others" theory doesn't really apply when we're talking about physiology. For example, foods high in both calories and fat (ice cream, cookies, doughnuts) will obviously add more fat onto anyones body. I don't hear anyone saying "Well for some people eating junk food helps then trim down, while for others it may not." That is idiotic because it opposes what we know scientifically. This case is no different, but for one reason or another, people do not want to accept the science.

We know scientifically that more weight creates more microtrauma on the muscles, and therefore creates more growth in the muscle so that it will be better prepared to handle the stress of that magnitude next time. If the muscles in the arms have acclimated to handling a stress in the range of 500 pounds for deadlifts, then doing curls with 100 pounds isn't going to create new growth. That just doesn't add up from a scientific standpoint.

I believe that a lot of people THINK that doing bicep curls helps their arms grow because of the pump that you feel afterwards, but feeling a pump is really nothing more than the result of doing an isolated movement. Since the stress from the weight isn't as spread out as when doing a compound lift, then the muscles handling the brunt of the load during an isolated movement will feel much more of a burn.

As for the issue that a few people have mentioned as to why nearly all bodybuilders do isolated arm exercises, I think that can be explained for several reasons. First of all, many take an insane amount of steroids because they are judged on how they look rather than how much weight they can move. For this reason alone, they will make damn sure to hit every muscle in their body no matter how many isolated lifts it takes. They do exercises for arms, calves, rear delts, neck, etc, etc. The steroids in conjunction with their rigorous diets are what makes their bodies look so impressive - NOT the isolated lifts. Most guys who care more about how much weight they lift rather than how someone will judge their body are not as selective with their dietary in-take, and it shows.

I would be willing to bet that if you took the 2 top bodybuilders out there today, told them they could maintain their same routine for juicing, cardio, nutrition, and whatever else, and then had one train with nothing but the major compound lifts, while the other did the same compound lifts as well as the isolated lifts (same as the Ball State study), they would come out with around the same percentage of gains. I think that the pure bodybuilder types are doing a large number of lifts unnecessarily...

[TheSuaveOne]

Christ man. Keep pushing this shit. We get it, you don't do curls. Great for you. If you would like to take a trip to Chicago and show how I'm doing this all wrong, please feel free. You seem to know that everyone reacts to exercises the exact same way, I would suggest you write a book that tells use exactly what routine will work for everyone as we are all the same, and can only react to exercises and rep counts as you have determined.

Sheesh.

[Stephen]

Christ man. Keep pushing this shit. We get it, you don't do curls. Great for you. If you would like to take a trip to Chicago and show how I'm doing this all wrong, please feel free. You seem to know that everyone reacts to exercises the exact same way, I would suggest you write a book that tells use exactly what routine will work for everyone as we are all the same, and can only react to exercises and rep counts as you have determined.

Sheesh.

I'm just trying to engage a civil discussion regarding the science of muscle building versus popular opinion. Try not to take anything personally.

And yes, I do believe that if everyone progressed in weight though a very select set of compound exercises, then everyone would build a significant amount of muscle. I think that people can vary in certain things such as recovery time, effects of nutritional in-take, and the amount of time it takes to progress in overall strength, but as for the particular exercises I don't think that necessarily needs to vary from one person to the next. I can think of about 10 exercies that people need to do:

Squats
Deadlifts
Bench Press
Snatches
Power Cleans
Overhead Press
Barbell Row
Dips
Chin-Ups
Weighted Crunches

Now I understand that there are certain variations of these exercises that are helpful during a stall period (rack pulls, bench press with chains or bands, overhead squats, etc, etc), but there is really no need to do any exercises outside of this group.

[Halfway]

I'd like to get my hands on some of those steroids that make you grow from just going through the motions with isolation work :p

anyone going heavy with iso work is asking for an injury.. it's pointless to do low reps of jerky swinging ego-trippery on anything that only involved one joint imo, just inviting a strain, tweak or worse.

you are not trying to tear down muscle fibers on isolation work, the whole point is to get as much blood as possible in for hypertrophy and nutrient loading... even if you were 99% fast twitch fiber it would still be dangerous to do low rep heavy curls

[TheSuaveOne]

I can think of about 10 exercies that people need to do:

Squats
Deadlifts
Bench Press
Snatches
Power Cleans
Overhead Press
Barbell Row
Dips
Chin-Ups
Weighted Crunches

So with those 10 exercises, I should be able to attain any possible weightlifting/bodybuilding/powerlifting goal out there?

[Stephen]

So with those 10 exercises, I should be able to attain any possible weightlifting/bodybuilding/powerlifting goal out there?

With those 10 plus several assistance variations you should be able to attain your peak of strength and size development. During stall periods I would also recommend any of these:

Front Squats
Box Squats
Overhead Squats
Bench Press w/chains
Bench Press w/bands
Rack Pulls
Power Shrugs
High Pulls

Some people also like to mix in dumbbells for a while instead of barbells for numerous lifts, which is a nice change of pace for improving balance. There may be a few lifts that I am leaving out, but you get the point. Do the lifts that work the entire body as a system and everything will grow as a result.

[TheSuaveOne]

Some people also like to mix in dumbbells...

Yeah, but I don't want to know about what they like, I want hard solid scientific evidence that this will works, otherwise, it's just a waste of time.

[DjEclipse]

Yeah, but I don't want to know about what they like, I want hard solid scientific evidence that this will works, otherwise, it's just a waste of time.

Using the barbell allows you to lift more weight for any given movement. The more weight you move the more your body had to adapt to the workload.

He is just saying for a change of pace, maybe on a planned deload some people will switch to dumbells. But for putting on mass and strength the barbell is the way to lift.

[TheSuaveOne]

But if they don't have a scientific study to back that up, they should never do it...la

[DjEclipse]

But if they don't have a scientific study to back that up, they should never do it...la

lol I sense a little sarcasm.

With a deload you're giving your body a rest, but at the same time most people still want to go to the gym to lift something. During that time anything that doesn't hurt you is ok.

[Stephen]

Yeah, but I don't want to know about what they like, I want hard solid scientific evidence that this will works, otherwise, it's just a waste of time.

Hard scientific evidence of what? That using free weights for compound movements is the key to building muscle? Or are you specifically talking about using dumbbells in place of barbells?

I'll acknowledge right from the get-go that barbells will get you bigger and stronger much quicker than dumbbells, and if you want to avoid dumbbells completely, then great. I don't think there is any problem there whatsoever.

The main benefit of dumbbells for a lot of people is a reduction of pressure in the shoulder joint (for the exercises like the bench press) for those who have problems in that area. Dumbbells involve a much greater ROM than barbells, so more muscle fibers get recruited when you use them. The dumbbells do have to be balanced, which can be a catch 22. The benefit is that they strengthen your stabilizing muscles, but the downfall is that they become very unstable and are difficult to get into starting position on certain exercises (like the overhead press) once you begin using heavier weights.

[Fedor]

for overhead press w/ dumbells, I find that having my palms face each other @ the bottom and top position helps with getting and keeping my shoulder joints in the proper position. Any tweaks to my elbow or hand position is just asking for trouble with my specific body-type (narrow shoulders w/ shitty rotator cuff).

[Stephen]

for overhead press w/ dumbells, I find that having my palms face each other @ the bottom and top position helps with getting and keeping my shoulder joints in the proper position. Any tweaks to my elbow or hand position is just asking for trouble with my specific body-type (narrow shoulders w/ shitty rotator cuff).

I stopped doing dumbbells for the shoulder press once I got to 100s. My problem wasn't with the lift itself, but rather getting the dumbbels into position without a rack. It was a huge headache. I also had my palms facing one another at the start of the movement, but rotated them outward so that they were facing away at the finish.

I had to stop using dumbbells for the chest press and rows at the 120s because my gym doesn't have dumbbells any higher than that. I am doing 100% barbell training as of now...

[getjacked]

Hard scientific evidence of what? That using free weights for compound movements is the key to building muscle? Or are you specifically talking about using dumbbells in place of barbells?

I'll acknowledge right from the get-go that barbells will get you bigger and stronger much quicker than dumbbells, and if you want to avoid dumbbells completely, then great. I don't think there is any problem there whatsoever.

The main benefit of dumbbells for a lot of people is a reduction of pressure in the shoulder joint (for the exercises like the bench press) for those who have problems in that area. Dumbbells involve a much greater ROM than barbells, so more muscle fibers get recruited when you use them. The dumbbells do have to be balanced, which can be a catch 22. The benefit is that they strengthen your stabilizing muscles, but the downfall is that they become very unstable and are difficult to get into starting position on certain exercises (like the overhead press) once you begin using heavier weights.

his post was in jest and taking a jab at you for being one of those guys that relies on science to do any and everything they do.

[TheSuaveOne]

lol I sense a little sarcasm.

LOL, I'm glad that came through. :)

[Stephen]

his post was in jest and taking a jab at you for being one of those guys that relies on science to do any and everything they do.

You say that as if it's a bad thing...

[DjEclipse]

LOL, I'm glad that came through. :)

lol, it's all good. This is what a message board is all about.

Personally (it's obvious) I agree with Stephen and science. Science shows us what optimal training is, and that does not include isolation, it is compound lifts.

Just because you (people) see Arnold doing a bunch of curls and shit doesn't mean that it's optimal training. Arnold came out with pumping iron, all the bb mags in the 80's and 90's printed these rediculous routines to add inches to your arms in just 30 days. Because of this "advertising" everyone simply does what they see Arnold doing, and what they read in these mags. This is why you see so many people doing routines like this in the gyms... they simply don't know anything else and/ or are afraid to try anything else because it's not the norm.

I used used to do bb splits in highschool, push pull legs etc., I got some results, but never really grew and didn't gain any strength.

Years later I started training again. I knew nothing else so I started doing my old routines, I didn't really go anywhere no size or strength gains.

I then started doing compound lifts, no emphasis on any isolation and in the first month I was bigger (everywhere) and stronger then I ever was training the old way.

So science and personal experience tells me that what Stephen is saying is right.

[TheSuaveOne]

I may not use science, but I certainly use personal experience. Unless the science is done on my body or a genetic clone, there is no way I would trust a study more than what I have found out from experimenting with my body for the last 20+ years.

[DjEclipse]

I may not use science, but I certainly use personal experience. Unless the science is done on my body or a genetic clone, there is no way I would trust a study more than what I have found out from experimenting with my body for the last 20+ years.

Maybe you can call Ball State University and tell them you want to prove them wrong in their study. Be one of the next test peeps.

[getjacked]

You say that as if it's a bad thing...

it very much so is.

[getjacked]

lol, it's all good. This is what a message board is all about.

Personally (it's obvious) I agree with Stephen and science. Science shows us what optimal training is, and that does not include isolation, it is compound lifts.

Just because you (people) see Arnold doing a bunch of curls and shit doesn't mean that it's optimal training. Arnold came out with pumping iron, all the bb mags in the 80's and 90's printed these rediculous routines to add inches to your arms in just 30 days. Because of this "advertising" everyone simply does what they see Arnold doing, and what they read in these mags. This is why you see so many people doing routines like this in the gyms... they simply don't know anything else and/ or are afraid to try anything else because it's not the norm.

I used used to do bb splits in highschool, push pull legs etc., I got some results, but never really grew and didn't gain any strength.

Years later I started training again. I knew nothing else so I started doing my old routines, I didn't really go anywhere no size or strength gains.

I then started doing compound lifts, no emphasis on any isolation and in the first month I was bigger (everywhere) and stronger then I ever was training the old way.

So science and personal experience tells me that what Stephen is saying is right.


there's nothing wrong with science. when you actually understand science and how medical trials work you'll understand why they're something that must be analyzed for what they really are -- which, in tons of cases, are flawed with poor control settings and poor conclusions. many of the articles you currently read on various sites have guys that base their articles on studies that they have not actually read in their full context.

so, with the studies you have read, have you taken the time to either order or visit a university and look up the full text of the study with all the parameters (as in, not just the conclusion) you put all of your faith into? i'm going to go ahead and guess no, but i could be wrong.

i understand science well, and used to be one of those guys that buries his nose in pubmed as well as other journals. i have found that personal experience has made much more of a difference in how i perform than what i read in a study.

i am an intermediate level lifter (650+ deadlift, 330+ push press, etc) and feel that my guide is always my experience. i train like a bodybuilder and compete in strongman. i don't do push/pull, upper/lower, full body, 5x5, wetside or whatever else.. i do bodyparts individually and it has gotten me stronger than anything else has. and guess what, i do quite a bit of isolation stuff

at the end of the day, for the vast majority of people, none of this really makes a shit worth of a difference. i am of the opinion that compound movements are the best lifts for your buck, but doing isolation work is also beneficial.

[Fedor]

my take on the powerlifting vs bodybuilding mentality issue:

Powerlifting: no doubt the lifts are intense and will put on size all over the body. The problem IMO is that they put on size disproportionately! If you don't care about having your ass and hips grow bigger than the rest of your body for a blocky figure, then go for it.

Bodybuilding: Just because lifts are more focused doesn't mean you can't put intensity into them. You can put the proper intensity to get growth. For many, especially those who want a proportioned physique, doing muscle group specific work gives them better physique-enhancing results.


Just my .02. I still incorporate lifts from both styles.