I'm getting my knee scoped Thursday....

[archive_EmptyWallet]

Well, I'm getting my knee scoped Thursday. Last week, last tuesday actually we were goofing around and I jumped down some stairs. I landed, leg stayed in one place, foot didnt. I heard a nice horrible sound come from my leg. Got the MRI back today and I have a small tear in my miniscus, and they think they see something slightly, maybe a little bitty tear in my ACL. Great. So, he wants to see how bad the miniscus is and take a look at the ACL. My knee is pretty swollen, however I am now able to walk, but I can't extend my leg out all the way. So I walk kinda funny, my leg just stays at the same angle all the time. It is swollen pretty good though. I was on 500mgs of test for the past 7 weeks, and I took a shot last Sunday. I guess I'll end it here. Start clomid in a few weeks. Will that cause any problem with surgery? Anyway, he said if its only a small tear, he wants to just shave that piece off. However if it needs to be repaired, then he will do that. He said the recovery from the repair is longer than the shaving. He's not sure how damaged my ACL is, he said my knee doesnt really feel anymore loose than the other so it may be nothing at all. We aren't really sure. However killer, I've read alot of your responses, and I'd like your input here. Or for that matter from anyone. How long till I can squat again? Walk again? I'm just ready for this to be over.

You ain't got to be in the pen to be in prison, your in prison in your own fucking mind.
Everything is real on this concrete and steel.

[archive_Killer]

What surgery depends on where your tear is. The meniscus has a very poor blood supply, therefore only a small portion is eligble for repair (the outer 3rd). If not in this zone, the tear is usually shaved out. If it is just shaved you can be good to go in 4-6 weeks. All you have to do is wait for the swelling to go down. If repaired, then you first have to wait for the repair to heal. Usually 10 -12 weeks to get back.

I do not know what kind of insurance you have (PPO or HMO). But, if they do not give you an ace bandage or a cryocuff (compression and ice machine) the get a large ace bandage. Wrap the toes on up past your knee, getting progressivly looser as you go up. This will retard swelling. Make sure to keep the leg elevated.

Good luck. Doesn't sound like much to worry about regarding the ACL, which is great. Let us know what happens

[archive_EmptyWallet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Killer:
What surgery depends on where your tear is. The meniscus has a very poor blood supply, therefore only a small portion is eligble for repair (the outer 3rd). If not in this zone, the tear is usually shaved out. If it is just shaved you can be good to go in 4-6 weeks. All you have to do is wait for the swelling to go down. If repaired, then you first have to wait for the repair to heal. Usually 10 -12 weeks to get back.

I do not know what kind of insurance you have (PPO or HMO). But, if they do not give you an ace bandage or a cryocuff (compression and ice machine) the get a large ace bandage. Wrap the toes on up past your knee, getting progressivly looser as you go up. This will retard swelling. Make sure to keep the leg elevated.

Good luck. Doesn't sound like much to worry about regarding the ACL, which is great. Let us know what happens<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will!! If they just shave it, and you said 4-6 weeks, do you mean I can squat again and lift like I want in 4-6 weeks? Or 4-6 weeks until I can throw away the crutches? This is what I'm understanding, if it is just shaved, 4-6 weeks until I can squat and deadlift like I want again, if it is a repair, then it will be 10-12 weeks until I can squat and deadlift again. It is in the outer third. I'm pretty sure it is.

You ain't got to be in the pen to be in prison, your in prison in your own fucking mind.
Everything is real on this concrete and steel.

[archive_EmptyWallet]

One more thing, what kind of rehab would they have me doing? I, much like everyone else here knows pretty much any leg exercise known to man, what could they do different that I couldnt do myself? Stretching comes to mind. But I can't really think of anything else right off hand. I've never had physical therapy for anything, so I don't know what to expect. The only thing I can think of is the guy might treat me like an idiot thinking I don't know anything about lifting at all, HOWEVER, isnt there a different approach for lifting for injuries as opposed to what we do? Eh, I'll go into it with an open mind, maybe I'll learn something. One more thing killer, I've been posting about my knee in several places, and Zygalamil, guy over at elite, has these comments. I'm not sure if they are wrong or right, but it makes sense, and its a different way to look at things. Here's some of the things he replies to me with:



Originally posted by EmptyWallet
So I go back, they take X-rays, no bone damage. Whew.....now they tell me I need to see a specialist, so I actually get to see one today, this afternoon. He plays around with my knee, actually jacks with it pretty good. He says my ACL is ok, no other really torn ligaments (sp). Whew, thank goodness. HOWEVER, it is possible, that I messed up some cartalidge, or tore my muniscus? He gives me a ton of anti-inflammatory's and says to come back in a week. The guy was an ex-seal or something and we actually talked about AAS for a little bit.

Zyglamail: Well, I am going to get on my soap box here (again) for a minute and ask why on earth do you want to reduce inflamation?


Originally posted by jerkbox
inflammation = swelling....i would bet he is having trouble bending his knee right now. I would ice that sucker as much as possible.

Emptywallet, if you did partially tear the meniscus, it's not that bad, they would probably do an arthroscopic repair, and the recovery time isn't too long...a few weeks. just make sure you get it taken care of as soon as possible, or it could lead to arthritic joints...another mistake I made. I had a large tear in my meniscus, and my bones were rubbing together at the knee joint, causing some bad inflammation. I think they cut out almost a quarter of my meniscus...

Zyglamail: and if you you back to your high school biology class notes you will see that swelling is essential for healing, it causes a myriad of effects which SPEED healing. The reason so many people have arthritic porblems after inuries is because they look for a cure in a pill and jump on anti-inflamatories etc, greatly reducing healing and leaving the joint sloppy which results in calcium buildup and damaging of the cartiledge. arthroscopic repair is another joke since all they do is go in and cut out tissue but leave the strained/sprained tendons alone since surgery cant actually repair them (unless seperated of course) the surgery is worthless when it comes to fixing the actual propblem. Once again, just another example of modern medicine treating the SYMPTOM and NOT the actual injury. Everyone is so eager to forgoe proper healing to simply reduce a little pain, its a fucking shame.


Originally posted by EmptyWallet
He indeed said it was for the swelling. Yes I am having tons of trouble bending my knee. I've always loved reading your posts Zyg! I'm sure you have a neat explanation as to why I would NOT want to reduce inflamation?

Zyglamail: FOr tha average couch potatoe I would say go ahead and jump on anti-inflamatories, you likely wont be doing anything to injure the joint futher and if they do they likely lead such a sedentary life style that it will matter very little. However, I assume that since you are here, your an athlete, even if only for yourself you still strive to improve. Anti-inflamatories WILL hinder healing and thus leave you in a weakened state, all because you want a little more comfort. If you suffered a sprain/strain of a tendon/ligament your knee will be sloppy, the reason its stiff is because the swelling of the tendons/ligament but this swelling causes a cascade of healing events and increases the turnover rate of these tissues which is normally 300-500 days. When you eliminate this swelling you are of course more comfortable BUT that doesnt mean you are better and healed, healing takes time and the anti-inflamatories reduce the healing effects. When the joint is unhealed its sloppy and that can cause erosion of cartiledge, this in turn can develop into arthritis. Arthroscopic surgery is then often done and what do they do? They go in and shave out some cartiledge to make you feel better, but thats not thge problem, the problem is the joint is sloppy and its causing the cartiledge to be destroyed. Once again modern medicine bypasses the problem and tries to treat the symptom.

If your serious about 100% healing dont take my word for it, head over to prolonews.com and do some reading on your own. Keep an open mind and I can just about gurantee you will get better results in the long run by NOT blindly following what your specialist recommends.

Originally posted by EmptyWallet
I am serious!!! If you were in my position, what would you do? Ice? Try and move it around? Stretch? What would you do?

Zyglamail: No ice either, ice forces caplilaries to constrict and reduces blood flow and prevent healing. Use it if you can to help promote blood flow and help aid in healing. There is no quick way about it, sure you can load up on anti-inflamatories and go about your business but you risk permanent long term injury if you do, much better to give it a couple weeks and take it easy, let it heal.

If in a couple weeks it doesnt improve I would recomend you goto prolonews.com and see if you can find a prolodoc in your area and give him a visit. Prolo will greatly speed up healing. That site also has a lot of good info on why modern medicine is so poor at fixing these types of injuries and the ramifications of following comon Dr advice.

Originally posted by jerkbox
interesting read...however, I'm not totally convinced.

for a few reasons...from an athelete's perspective, waiting months for a knee to heal isn't really beneficial when you are neglecting your training.

you are going to have swelling, ice nor anti-inflammatories won't eliminate that, however, they can minimize it when you need to have use of your knee.

to me it's common sense to minimize the use of any drugs, all be it most people look at pills as some kind of easy way out...I use them when neccessary. Frankly the content on that website seemed very skewed against conventional practices....



Zyglamail: I will agree that the site is a bit simplistic but then again it is aimed at the uneducated. As for avoiding uneccessary meds, thats a great idea. One thing I have noticed with these discussions is that we are often on different pages. We have differing degree's of meaning to various words and hence some confusion. As for your comment on waiting months for an injury to heal, thats where you are a bit wrong. Under normal practiced approaches docs have you load up on anti-inflamatories, this allows you to get by often times but leaves your injury unhealed. If this condition is aggrivated by your athletics and anti-inflamatories become essential to function you have now enetered a very dangerous circle of events where you continually aggrivate and weaken the injured area -> take meds to mask pain and prevent healing, rinse and repeat and sooner or later you suffer a full tear OR arthritis develops due to the weakened joint. While you may "get by" your longevtiy in the sport is greatly affected. Additionally all the times I have had prolo done, it has not affected my training at all I was able to train AND heal at the same time.



Originally posted by jerkbox
also, I don't see how one could even perform range of motion movements with a bloated knee....IMO this would only serve to further atrophy the surrounding muscles and weaken the joint further by not being able to effectively exercise.

Zyglamail: Cmon, if the knee is that swolen its for a reason and you shouldnt be exerciseing it to begine with.


Originally posted by jerkbox
I had my knee treated by a doctor who has worked w/Olympic Skiers, and practiced at a sports medicine facility, somehow I trust his advice more than unproven methods.
the other problem I had with this is they made it seem as though you would be rebuilding the cartilidge in your knee...however, if you read the article closely enough, that isn't the case. So, you will still have a cartilidge tear..??? which will probably only get worse. The HGH studies sound promising...If there was a way to rebuild cartildge, i'd sign up in a second. Believe me, I've been considering alternate treatments like acupuncture, etc to help my knee along.
all in all, i certainly wouldn't trust them injecting shit into my new ACL....and ending up back at square one again. but perhaps treating the meniscus and lubricating the whole joint itself would be beneficial.
and yes I remember high school biology class....

Zyglamail: First off all the docs who practice prolo are real medical docs and the reason they chose prolo is because normal methods did not work anywhere near as well. The fact a doc has treated professional athletes means jack shit because all of the prolo docs can claim the same. As for the mthods being unproven, once again this is just not the case prolo has been widely used for something like 100 years. The simple fact its not more comon is due to our wonderfull society and the fact the HMO's cant make any money off it, its too damn simple and works too well.

On the issue of rebuilding cartiledge I would ask anyone who is about to have any sort of arthroscopic surgery to do me this favor and before surgery ask to have the removed tissue sent to the lab to see if it was in a proliferative state. In most cases it is and what that means is it was in the process of healing. If it was healing then why have cartiledge removed? It was removed because it was causing pain but how did it get damaged to begin with? Thats like cutting off a finger because you got a paper cut, its rediculous at best and more often than not not needed. In order to fix the problem the joint needs to be stabalized and once that happnes the cartilegde can heal.

If you are seeking alternative methods then you just found one, stop being so closed minded and do some more reading on it. I have had it done on my elbows, back and foot with awesome success. Like many I trained through the pain of injuries, took anti-inflamatories etc but 6 month later when they were no better I figured there had to be a better way. I found prolo and dove in head first doing all the reading I could find. I had it done and my workouts improved daily, pain faded and my strength returned.

EmptyWallet , dont be fooled by an MRI, while it is a gretat invention it is not the best means of determining these types of injuries. A study was done at U of FL and had huge margins of error for determining tendon/ligament damage. One nice thing about prolo is you can tell exactly what tendon/ligament is injured when the needle hit its, there is no question. Sprains can cause huge amounts of swelling and pain as long as you can move/use the leg you dont have a complete tear and a complete tear is the only thing that should require sugery.

michaelcoutts, I also sprained my left anke very bad some years ago and its never been the same. Prolo has helped significantly for my ankle as well.

Basically put guys, what I am getting at is dont be so eager to go under the knife and endure all these tests etc, most are overpriced and offer releife but not real healing.



Ok, so you see the basic giff of how I could be so confused. I know its hard to read but basically the site that he talks about www.prolonews.com goes against all other things ive seen talked about on here. Not to take anti-inflammatories, no ice really, and other things. Its very confusing, killer do you have comments on that?

You ain't got to be in the pen to be in prison, your in prison in your own fucking mind.
Everything is real on this concrete and steel.