I am not sure if I have Rotator Cuff problems

[marky]

Ive absconed from flat barbell bench, but I still get a grind/pop on every rep in my rt shoulder on the Hammer Strength straight/flat bench simulated press. Not so much with dumbells. Does this sound like rotator cuff?

[archive_Killer]

Marky,

Can you give us more info?

Ever hurt your shoulder before?
Was it a gradual onset or one event?
Does it hurt on any other movements?
Does moving your arm forward, side, overhead, scratching back hurt?
Can you palpate any pain or tenderness?

To test cuff (have someone apply resistance or use dumbell)

Supraspinatus
Arm out to side, a little forward of lateral raise (about 40 degress from body), thumb down. Resist.

Take hurt (shoulder) arm and reach across body to other shoulder. Have someone push underside of hurt limb's elbow up in air. This is a test for impingement.

Ext Cuff (infraspinatus, teres minor)
Elbow anchored into side, arm bent at elbow, 90 degrees. Person applies pressure to top of hand.

Lay on bench (on back), with hurt limb hanging off to side. Put arm into behind the neck press postion and allow to drift back towards floor. Pain?

Int Cuff (subscapularis)
Elbow anchored into side, arm bent at elbow 90 degrees. Person applies pressure to palm.

Try all this and get back. Doesn't sound like rotator cuff, but more like shoulder laxity and impingment that is causing an unstable shoulder, allowing your humeral head (arm bone) to clunk around on the rotator cuff tendon

[Curious George]

Killer, isn't it amazing how when you first do rotator exercises, how weak they really are? I remember the 1st time I tried to do them with a soupcan of all things, how imbalanced they really were compared to the 3 main heads of the deltoid.

Poliquin recommends to take 6 weeks and abstain from doing any flat bench work to strengthen the cuffs.

Killer...I just want to say that your posts have been helpful to me in my training as well. Your knowledge of the muscles and movement are impressive.

Take Good Care,

Cg

[archive_HULK1550]

i dislocated my shoulder and tore the rotator cuff playing hockey in college. Killer laid it out pretty well to see if thats what it is. External rotation is the teller. keep us posted. in the mean time be careful, go slow and make sure you warm up your shoulders very well.

1stRule: Show Up!
2nd Rule: Squat!

[Curious George]

There is a pretty cool warmup that I do to get blood in the shoulders without pain. Take two 10lb plates or whatever feels comfortable....put them in each hand and do 20 reps without stopping of front, side and rear raises. You may not be able to work the same weights as you would cold, but it will warm up the shoulders and get blood in there.

Take Good Care,

Cg

[archive_HULK1550]

if even that is too hard like it was for me, take the ten pounders and lean over and just move them in circles to loosen them up. it sucks to have to warm up the shoulders like that but its better than the hospital.

1stRule: Show Up!
2nd Rule: Squat!

[archive_Killer]

Thanks for the kind words Curious George. I am just happy that I can give something back to AF (and pass the time at work).

It is amazing how weak the rotators are, specifically the ext cuff and suprapspinatus. The ext cuff gets little to no work unless addressed on purpose. I once worked with a defensive lineman (professional) that retired for a year and was training to get signed again. He could DB military the 150's, but was having pain. When he started to ext rotator work, he was using 5lbs. Keep in mind this guy was around 6'2" and pushing around 260-290.

A note on the "empy can" exercise/test for the supraspinatus. In recent years, it was determined that performing the exercise with thumb down could lead to impingment in the shoulder. Performing the movement with thumb up produces the same results (hitting the supra) with no worries of impingement due to the shoulder being in ext rotation, not internal rotation as in the thumb down version. I like to test in both positions, cuz thumb down can show if the person is impinging.

I do the same warm-up as Curious. I use 5 lbs and perform side laterals, thumb up for supra, front raises, and circles with palms up.

Hulk, that is actually an exercise that distracts the shoulder joint and is often prescribed first thing post op to help with pain, and increase ROM to some degree

[bigmag]

I have a few exercises that I do before every shoulder workout to warm up and train my rotator cuff a little before I actually hit the deltiods.

I take a 5lb plate and put my arms out parpendicular to my body and bend at the elbows (90 degrees) and pointing my hand towarsds the ceiling. I then rotate at the shoulder to bring the forearm down as far as I can without forcing it, and then back up. I do it for 12-15 reps with a 5lb plate then for another 12-15 reps with a 10lb plate.

For the second exercise I lie down on a bench on either side and leave the upper arm against my side and bent in front of my body at the elbow. Again using a 5lb plate I rotate my shoulder at the elbow towards the ceiling as far as I can without to much preasure and then come back down. I also do this exercise with a 5 lb and 10lb plate for the same number of reps.

These exercises have helped me to develop my infraspinatus and supraspinatus strength and keep me from having any shoulder injuries.

Only the strong survive!!!

[EAST_COAST_BODYBUILDER]

My shoulders also pop, but only on over head presses to the front. I have never hurt my shoulder really. BUT, a few months back i benched one day kinda heavy, and no pain during the work out. But for a while after that my shoulders were sore a hell. I had to pretty much start all over and work back up to fairly heavy dumbell presses. And now when i bench my rear delt area is sore for a few days after benching. I'm thinking that its from possibly imbalanced shoulder from not directly working my rear delts for a while and maybe i need some rotator cuff strengthning. I have been working on the rotator cuff exercise ever sionce then. But the soreness still comes back in the rear of my shoulder???

EAST_COAST_BODYBUILDER

[archive_Killer]

Sorry didn't see this sooner, plus started a new job and am getting settled in. So, rear deltish pain after benching. Usually, the strain is in the rotator cuff, not the deltoids. So I will have ya do a couple things:

On the following, have someone apply pressure and see if pain.
-Front raise, lateral raise
-Have arm out to side (kinda in between front and lateral raise, thumb down, arm not quite at 45 degress from body)
-arm bent at 90 degrees, elbow into side, resist going towards stomach (internal) and towards rear (external)

Any noticeable loss of ROM?

Also, take your affected arm and reach across your body and place hand on your shoulder. Have someone push your elbow up. This puts you in internal roation and we are testing for impingememnt.

Also, when sore, lay on a bench or bed with the affected side off bed. Arm bent at 90 degress, kind of a cocking a baseball position. Let the arm realx. Pain?

Also, can you palpate any pain in the area, or is it more diffuse?

Lets start with this.

[EAST_COAST_BODYBUILDER]

Sorry didn't see this sooner, plus started a new job and am getting settled in. So, rear deltish pain after benching. Usually, the strain is in the rotator cuff, not the deltoids. So I will have ya do a couple things:

On the following, have someone apply pressure and see if pain.
-Front raise, lateral raise
EAST COAST: ***(NO PAIN HERE)***

-Have arm out to side (kinda in between front and lateral raise, thumb down, arm not quite at 45 degress from body)

EAST COAST: ***(THIS ONE I CAN FEEL)***

-arm bent at 90 degrees, elbow into side, resist going towards stomach (internal) and towards rear (external)

EAST COAST: ***(NO PAIN HERE)***


Any noticeable loss of ROM?

EAST COAST: ROM IS PRETTY MUCH THE SAME I THINK

Also, take your affected arm and reach across your body and place hand on your shoulder. Have someone push your elbow up. This puts you in internal roation and we are testing for impingememnt.

EAST COAST: ***(NO PAIN HERE)***

Also, when sore, lay on a bench or bed with the affected side off bed. Arm bent at 90 degress, kind of a cocking a baseball position. Let the arm realx. Pain?

EAST COAST: I can't lay down at the moment, but if i do it sitting up i can feel it in rear relt area.


Also, can you palpate any pain in the area, or is it more diffuse?

EAST COAST: Sorry i don;t understand those words, lol. Please, explain.

I don;t know if it helps or not but the hurt shoulder pops allot.

AND, Thanks allot for taking the time to help.

EAST_COAST_BODYBUILDER



Lets start with this.

[archive_Killer]

The one muscle test that caused you some pain was testing the supraspinatus muscle of the rotator cuff. It's main job is to stabilize the humeral head (arm bone) when performing activity.

All other tests were negative, including impingememnt (decreased space under A/C joint, which causes pain). It is a little parculiar cuz impingment is usually somewhat hand in hand with supra problems as the muscle is inflammed and decreases that space.

The hanging arm test that you somewhat performed (what do you mean you do not have a bed at work?) can be a sign of supra and/or ext cuff problems. usually this will also lead to pain in rear delt raises too.

By palpate, I meant can you poke around and feel one exact tender spot or is it somewhat kind of spread around?

So, what to do? I think laying off the flat bench is in order. Try to find movements that do not piss your shoulder off. Do the ext cuff exercises explained in a previous post in this thread. Also, after those you may want to perfom some supra work. Do the exercise just like the test but keep your thumb to the sky instead of pointing at the ground. This will work the supra, but not get you into impingement trouble. During the ext cuff work and supra work, keep chest out and shoulders back and down (no traps!)

Start hitting some light stretching. You can get more aggressive as pain tolerates. www.testosterone.net (http://www.testosterone.net) has an article called the lazy man's guide to stretching. I believe it has many upper body stretches in it. Pay attention to the chest and lat stretches.

Do you do deadlifts? Start. They are about the only lift that can work the back with the same lbs you can press with. Also, when doing rows and oulldowns, keep that chest high and shoulders down and back - no traps! This will work the rhomboids and further stabilize your shoulder.

Let me know if ya have

[EAST_COAST_BODYBUILDER]

Thanks allot for taking the time. It is now monday, and i haven't done chest or shoulders since last wed. They feel perfectly fine for the past few day, no pain in any of the movements you told me to do now. But after i bench it will be right back. The ppain feels like it is dead in my rear delt, it feels like muscle soreness but maybe more. Nothing else in the shoulder hurts. Your said its the stabilizer part , and that sounds about right to me, it did feel a little unstable at time before. I have been doing my rotator cuff exercises which included the one you descibed above and streching ever since it statred bothering me in the fist place. These seem to have helped ALLOT. But still after benching the pain wants to come back. I can't just stop benching, i have to work chest, haha. I would be the opposite of everyone else then....no chest and huge legs. I want to fix the problem so i can hit the weights as hard as i want every time i'm there. I do do deads, maily rack and stiff legs deads. Anything else you have to say would be greatly appreciated. Would massage, ART, OR ANYTHING ELSE BE WORTH GIVING A TRY? Oh and also, i saw where you told someone else about iceing it after working out, its a different injury (mr. b's post), But i iced mine one time after working out and there was no pain the next day (should i do this too)THANKS FOR YOUR TIME..

EAST_COAST_BODYBUILDER

[archive_Killer]

Def ice after workouts. 20- 30 minutes should do the trick.

ART is something you could try. I do not have much experience with it, but have heard great results from others.

Try reading www.fit-pro.com/rotatorcuff (http://www.fit-pro.com/rotatorcuff) It may help you understand everything a little better.

Can you do inclines? Declines? barbell or dumbell? Hammer machine? Try to work around it for a while.

Probally not what you want to hear, but sometimes due to biomechanical or sturctural differences or changes as we age, some exercises have to be thrown out. I could never perform flat bench movements with anything execpt close grip. Extreme pain in my right shoulder. Clinically there is nothing wrong with my shoulder. I would have to have an MRI and maybe an experimental arthoscope to see what is going on. I jsut work around it and my chest hasn't suffered. Kind of wierd though, banging out close grip bench for football testing.

You could possibly have some some fraying where the supra comes in contact with the glenoid labrum (rim of cartlidge). This is a less common form of impingement but could only be diagnosed from MRI (to see fraying).

[EAST_COAST_BODYBUILDER]

I can do any of the exercises without pain during. Its the day after or 2 days after it gets sore, just like a muscle, thats why i thought i had an imbalance that when i benched it was somehow pulling on my weaker rear delt. The day after or two days after when its sore, its like its tight. I can stretch it (the rear delt) and the pain goes away allot then after awhile i have to strech it agian. After about 3 days its gone until i hit the chest agian. It does it on inclines or flat bench, dumbells or barbells, it make no difference.... what ya think?

[archive_Killer]

Perform a somewhat light workout that you know will aggravate your shoulder (not dying pain, but some discomfort). Then perform all the tests again and see which ones cause the most discomfort.

I am thinking (had a couple cases like this before) that at some point you strained your supra. It heals a little, then BAM, you irritate it again during lifitng (no pain then) and it hurts the day or two after.

If this is correct, the only thing that will work is to take time away from the exercises that are causing the pain. At the same time, you could try ART and some ultrasound to increase healing. Also, perform rotator exercises and stretch (all pain free) to strengthen any imbalances. Then you should be good to go.

But, ease back into training the lifts that irritate it, slowly. I would compare it to a hamstring strain, which can take 3 + (8) weeks to get better. Often, the athelte will feel better, push to hard, and restrain again. It can become a cycle, sounds like you may be caught in it also.

If that doesn't work, some supra or labrum fraying may be the cause.

[EAST_COAST_BODYBUILDER]

I did chest and shoulders last night agian. I did inclines and rear delts (trying to see if i can strengthen them). No pain during the workout. streched good when i was done as usual. Went home did my rotator cuff exercises and I iced for 20 mins after i was done.. Today i feel some slight soreness in the rear delt area agian, but is allot better than usual, it feels kinda tight actually. I did the exercises agian, the only one that hurts is the one you do at 45 degrees fron the body thumb down, when i push down on my arm i can feel it in the same area thats sore, not pain but sore. THANKS AGIAN FOR YOUR TIME.

[archive_Killer]

No problem, glad to help. So, at some point you pissed off your supraspinatus. It will take some time to heal. Be patient, stretch, and hit those rotator exercises as you have been doing.

"No chest and huge legs"

I am envious.