Overtraining

Hawk · 09-25-2002, 09:59 PM

Could use everyone's input on overtraining.

I've read thread after thread here and other sites on the web but I still cannot find the answer I'm looking for. If it's here then I missed it.

I'm familiar with the old school thoughts of bb, lift, lift & lift. I've seen the theories on overtraining because you don't allow ample time for recovery or you're hammering secondary muscles the next day and so on.

If you were doing a three day a week split with four days off completely and ensured your recovery time for all muscle groups, why can't you just lift like crazy?

Burn out? Injuries? Somebody explain to me why a person can't do 50 sets per bodypart per day, not saying that's my plan - just using it for argument sake. If your not training it for 7 days and not training secondary muscles for another 3, what is the argument that people have with overtraining?

Could somebody explain the science behind it all?

Thanx!!

"Don't dismiss your dreams. To be without dreams is to be without hope; to be without hope is to be without purpose."

archive_45goingon20 · 09-26-2002, 06:15 AM

To simplify things overtraining will tax all of your systems thereby lowering your bodies natural defenses and immune system. You'll be more suseptible to fatigue, sickess, etc. Counter productive to muscle building.
45

archive_Bjaarki · 09-26-2002, 06:32 AM

..... because there simply isn't any. We understand sooooo little about exercise physiology, hypertrophy, injury and repair, etc., etc.. There is an awful lot of pseudo-knowledge out there - what I, in a recent thread, called "lore" - but very, very little hard information. We don't even know what causes delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) for chrissakes! If we're honest we'll be humble about these things and give everyone lots of room to experiment and report back on their results.

My own belief - and this is just mine, and it's a belief, not an opinion firmly founded in science - is that "overtraining" as the term is typically understood - working a bodypart too heavy in a workout - is a myth. Yep. A myth. These things happen in medically-related fields all the time, so it doesn't surprise me.

Let me be clear: I think that repetitive stress can injure you, usually at a joint, and doing too much training in the way of sheer volume can - though this takes a lot more volume training than even I have the stomach for - give you a joint or other repetitive stress injury. But, will doing 10, or 20, or 50 sets of a lift cause muscle atrophy? Of course not! If you give yourself plenty of rest before you work that muscle again, it will go through a phase of deep injury, repair, and hypertrophy like it would under any other training regime.

While I do not believe in "overtraining" per se - if overtraining were a fact, then blacksmiths should have small arms - I do believe in "under-recovery." I think that under-recovery - working a muscle too soon after stripping it down in a brutal workout, not giving it time to repair before you strip it down again - not "overtraining," accounts for most of the lack of results that are attributed to "overtraining."

I have a 6-way split that hammers every muscle group heavily once a week, then rests it at least 72 hours before using it again even in a secondary role. As you all know, I use volume training almost exclusively, and I'm doing fine in the gym. The key is recovery, not steering away from lots of sets.

My $.02, anyway. And they're just that - $.02 worth of personal opinion. Not science. Just personal experience. But that's all anyone here has to offer on this subject, don't let them tell you different.

Good to see you post, brother. Be well.

Bjaarki

... Then, do what you have to do.

Hawk · 09-26-2002, 07:18 AM

45goingon20, "overtraining will tax all of your systems thereby lowering your bodies natural defenses and immune system"
K, but why is high volume in one workout overtraining when you've allowed ample time for recovery? Is the that workout itself "taxing my systems? or is overtraining "taxing my systems"?
As for the fatique, I doubt that I can keep up to Bjaarki's 35 sets for months on end. However, a 8 - 10 week routine would be sustainable wouldn't it?

Bjaarki, I was hoping for a reply from the madman himself. Repetitive stress causing an injury. Isn't that what we all do - put repetitive stress on ourselves? I assume it's an individual thing but at what point does repetitions cause injury? I know that can't be answered but I'm trying to point out the questions I have.
I mean - damn bro, you're a couple years older than me and you go nuts in the gym. Stick a wig on you and you could have been Arnold's stunt double in "Collateral Damage". You look fantastic.
I'm sick and tired of reading on board after board the warnings of overtraining. Somewhere in between the old school theories and current training methods, somebody said " uh, you shouldn't do too much 'cos you'll be overtraining". For argument sake I'll pick on Arnold. Agreed, some of his methods are outdated however the technology wasn't there. I haven't researched steriod use from that era at all and I don't know the extent, if any, of use from that time but I'd imagine that there has been dramatic improvements in the science of "artificial hormones". These guys lifted and lifted with no mercy. It worked!!
Now there's overtraining? Okay, I realize that medical science knows more about the human anatomy now but.........
I don't even know if it can be done but somebody give me a reason why overtraining is even a consideration.

I've looked for your "lore" thread, couldn't find it bro. As I'm typing this I've noticed that Ulter has moved my thread into a different forum. Sorry bro, didn't realize that it should be posted here.

All comes down to the one simple question, can you overtrain if ample recovery time is alloted?
If Bjaarki's workouts don't cause atrophy, can overtraining even exist?

Thanx

"Don't dismiss your dreams. To be without dreams is to be without hope; to be without hope is to be without purpose."

archive_Mr. Nobody · 09-26-2002, 08:11 AM

I have tried GVT & 3X3, supersets, pre-exhaust sets and so on.
As I am getting older, I feel like overly intense workouts, where you absolutely destroy yourself with volume are becoming couterproductive. I would feel like shit for days (extremely sore and tired). However, the 7 days were too much rest, it felt like my muscles were rusting...
So, I have settled for less sets and more frequency, and I tell you what, I have never felt better.

Monday:
legs:
full squat, 20 reps, heavy (increase weights as your endurance builds); 1-2 sets...very exhaustive
extention, 20 reps with light weight, watch for proper contraction
leg curls, 20 rep with light weight, contract;
standing calf raise, 3 sets of 10
donkey calf raise, 3 sets, 20, 10, 8 reps

Tuesday:
bench, first working set 10 reps (pick a weight you can only do 6-8 times and work your way up), second set 6 reps
flies with heavy weights, 6-12 reps, watch for stretch
cables, 6-15 reps, go for flex
Partial deads or bent over row, 3 working sets with 6-10 reps
pull ups...as many as you can do for 2 sets (if you can do more than 20, use additional weight),
pull over, 2 sets of 15

Thurday:
preacher bench, 2 sets of 12, heavy weights
hammer curls, 2 sets of 8
reverse pull down with elbows up, 2 sets of 15.
bench dip, 3 sets, 15, 12, 6 reps
standing triceps curl over head, 2 sets of 8.
shoulder press to the front; 3 sets 15
side laterals (do a giant set of 15, 10, 10 reps)

Friday either off or begin routine again for a total of 5 workouts a week.

Its important that you work on one personal record (PR) every workout to keep progression going, that PR need not be max weight, but can also be a certain weight for more reps

Thats it, thats what it takes for me to come back to the gym and keep it fresh

PS: When on supplements, i do even more reps and more isolation exercises. I also throw in one of those newfangled workouts with progressive weights/reps as layed out in their plan every once in a while.

Oh yeah, I DO NOT KEEP A LOG, (got enough f... paperwork in my office), i keep PR's in my head.

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advise.

09-25-2002, 09:59 PM	#1 (permalink)
Hawk Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 176 Rep Power: 5531	Overtraining Could use everyone's input on overtraining. I've read thread after thread here and other sites on the web but I still cannot find the answer I'm looking for. If it's here then I missed it. I'm familiar with the old school thoughts of bb, lift, lift & lift. I've seen the theories on overtraining because you don't allow ample time for recovery or you're hammering secondary muscles the next day and so on. If you were doing a three day a week split with four days off completely and ensured your recovery time for all muscle groups, why can't you just lift like crazy? Burn out? Injuries? Somebody explain to me why a person can't do 50 sets per bodypart per day, not saying that's my plan - just using it for argument sake. If your not training it for 7 days and not training secondary muscles for another 3, what is the argument that people have with overtraining? Could somebody explain the science behind it all? Thanx!! "Don't dismiss your dreams. To be without dreams is to be without hope; to be without hope is to be without purpose." __________________ &quot;Don&apos;t dismiss your dreams. To be without dreams is to be without hope; to be without hope is to be without purpose.&quot;

09-26-2002, 06:32 AM	#3 (permalink)
archive_Bjaarki Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 3,673 Rep Power: 9536	You're not going to find any "science behind it all," Hawk ..... ..... because there simply isn't any. We understand sooooo little about exercise physiology, hypertrophy, injury and repair, etc., etc.. There is an awful lot of pseudo-knowledge out there - what I, in a recent thread, called "lore" - but very, very little hard information. We don't even know what causes delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) for chrissakes! If we're honest we'll be humble about these things and give everyone lots of room to experiment and report back on their results. My own belief - and this is just mine, and it's a belief, not an opinion firmly founded in science - is that "overtraining" as the term is typically understood - working a bodypart too heavy in a workout - is a myth. Yep. A myth. These things happen in medically-related fields all the time, so it doesn't surprise me. Let me be clear: I think that repetitive stress can injure you, usually at a joint, and doing too much training in the way of sheer volume can - though this takes a lot more volume training than even I have the stomach for - give you a joint or other repetitive stress injury. But, will doing 10, or 20, or 50 sets of a lift cause muscle atrophy? Of course not! If you give yourself plenty of rest before you work that muscle again, it will go through a phase of deep injury, repair, and hypertrophy like it would under any other training regime. While I do not believe in "overtraining" per se - if overtraining were a fact, then blacksmiths should have small arms - I do believe in "under-recovery." I think that under-recovery - working a muscle too soon after stripping it down in a brutal workout, not giving it time to repair before you strip it down again - not "overtraining," accounts for most of the lack of results that are attributed to "overtraining." I have a 6-way split that hammers every muscle group heavily once a week, then rests it at least 72 hours before using it again even in a secondary role. As you all know, I use volume training almost exclusively, and I'm doing fine in the gym. The key is recovery, not steering away from lots of sets. My $.02, anyway. And they're just that - $.02 worth of personal opinion. Not science. Just personal experience. But that's all anyone here has to offer on this subject, don't let them tell you different. Good to see you post, brother. Be well. Bjaarki ... Then, do what you have to do. __________________ First, say to yourself what you would become. Then, do what you have to do.

09-26-2002, 07:18 AM	#4 (permalink)
Hawk Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 176 Rep Power: 5531	45goingon20, "overtraining will tax all of your systems thereby lowering your bodies natural defenses and immune system" K, but why is high volume in one workout overtraining when you've allowed ample time for recovery? Is the that workout itself "taxing my systems? or is overtraining "taxing my systems"? As for the fatique, I doubt that I can keep up to Bjaarki's 35 sets for months on end. However, a 8 - 10 week routine would be sustainable wouldn't it? Bjaarki, I was hoping for a reply from the madman himself. Repetitive stress causing an injury. Isn't that what we all do - put repetitive stress on ourselves? I assume it's an individual thing but at what point does repetitions cause injury? I know that can't be answered but I'm trying to point out the questions I have. I mean - damn bro, you're a couple years older than me and you go nuts in the gym. Stick a wig on you and you could have been Arnold's stunt double in "Collateral Damage". You look fantastic. I'm sick and tired of reading on board after board the warnings of overtraining. Somewhere in between the old school theories and current training methods, somebody said " uh, you shouldn't do too much 'cos you'll be overtraining". For argument sake I'll pick on Arnold. Agreed, some of his methods are outdated however the technology wasn't there. I haven't researched steriod use from that era at all and I don't know the extent, if any, of use from that time but I'd imagine that there has been dramatic improvements in the science of "artificial hormones". These guys lifted and lifted with no mercy. It worked!! Now there's overtraining? Okay, I realize that medical science knows more about the human anatomy now but......... I don't even know if it can be done but somebody give me a reason why overtraining is even a consideration. I've looked for your "lore" thread, couldn't find it bro. As I'm typing this I've noticed that Ulter has moved my thread into a different forum. Sorry bro, didn't realize that it should be posted here. All comes down to the one simple question, can you overtrain if ample recovery time is alloted? If Bjaarki's workouts don't cause atrophy, can overtraining even exist? Thanx "Don't dismiss your dreams. To be without dreams is to be without hope; to be without hope is to be without purpose." __________________ &quot;Don&apos;t dismiss your dreams. To be without dreams is to be without hope; to be without hope is to be without purpose.&quot;

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09-26-2002, 06:15 AM	#2 (permalink)
archive_45goingon20 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 484 Rep Power: 5909	To simplify things overtraining will tax all of your systems thereby lowering your bodies natural defenses and immune system. You'll be more suseptible to fatigue, sickess, etc. Counter productive to muscle building. 45

09-26-2002, 08:11 AM	#5 (permalink)
archive_Mr. Nobody Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 5,080 Rep Power: 11837	I have tried GVT & 3X3, supersets, pre-exhaust sets and so on. As I am getting older, I feel like overly intense workouts, where you absolutely destroy yourself with volume are becoming couterproductive. I would feel like shit for days (extremely sore and tired). However, the 7 days were too much rest, it felt like my muscles were rusting... So, I have settled for less sets and more frequency, and I tell you what, I have never felt better. Monday: legs: full squat, 20 reps, heavy (increase weights as your endurance builds); 1-2 sets...very exhaustive extention, 20 reps with light weight, watch for proper contraction leg curls, 20 rep with light weight, contract; standing calf raise, 3 sets of 10 donkey calf raise, 3 sets, 20, 10, 8 reps Tuesday: bench, first working set 10 reps (pick a weight you can only do 6-8 times and work your way up), second set 6 reps flies with heavy weights, 6-12 reps, watch for stretch cables, 6-15 reps, go for flex Partial deads or bent over row, 3 working sets with 6-10 reps pull ups...as many as you can do for 2 sets (if you can do more than 20, use additional weight), pull over, 2 sets of 15 Thurday: preacher bench, 2 sets of 12, heavy weights hammer curls, 2 sets of 8 reverse pull down with elbows up, 2 sets of 15. bench dip, 3 sets, 15, 12, 6 reps standing triceps curl over head, 2 sets of 8. shoulder press to the front; 3 sets 15 side laterals (do a giant set of 15, 10, 10 reps) Friday either off or begin routine again for a total of 5 workouts a week. Its important that you work on one personal record (PR) every workout to keep progression going, that PR need not be max weight, but can also be a certain weight for more reps Thats it, thats what it takes for me to come back to the gym and keep it fresh PS: When on supplements, i do even more reps and more isolation exercises. I also throw in one of those newfangled workouts with progressive weights/reps as layed out in their plan every once in a while. Oh yeah, I DO NOT KEEP A LOG, (got enough f... paperwork in my office), i keep PR's in my head. Disclaimer: Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner. The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advise.