Lobo...somebody...

[Temple]

I have a friend who is putting her 9 year old on Atkins, can you give me the run down on exactly what this diet does, I know the basics but have forgotten some if the peticulars. Also how many calories does a pound of muscle burn per day and how many does a pound of fat burn??? Thanks

[Daeo]

The atkins diet is a no carb/low carb diet. It's like Bodyopus without the carb-up. Basically in the absence of insulin the body produces glucagon which breaks down fat into ketones which are used for energy. I personally don't like the Atkins diet. I feel too much importance is put on how much weight is lost and not which kind is lost. I've used Bodyopus before and it was effective but you were only in ketosis for 4 days. Staying in ketosis for me for weeks on end would drive me insane...

[archive_Iron God]

9 year olds should exercise not go on diets.

Atkin diet is a very temporary solution (as are all low/no carb diets)


As soon as you start eating normal (and trust me you will) you gain a shit load of water.

These type of diets are goal specific and not maintainable. Proper nutrition and a balanced diet are key to long term success.

IG

[archive_Iron God]

Muslce I beleive take 15-20? calories to maintain, Fat takes none.

Hence why you have alot of skinny fat people around.


IG

[Temple]

IG - I have learned something here! I guessed right on the what it takes to maintain muscle and told her basically what you said only I thru alot of Warlobo technobabble in there.
Thanks

[Sylon]

Well put IG [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img], I agree with you completly!

Sylon [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

[WarLobo]

Well fat does have a biological requirement, I think it's like 3 cals, while pound of muscle is more in the range of 40. Now this is an "at rest" state. And of course there are many variables. BUT, the ratio is like 11 to 1. And when you lift, the cals required both during, and especialy after, goes way up for muscle. While cardio does not affect this high demand requirement. The fat, of course, just sits there taking only 3 cals no matter what you do. From a survival stand point, fat is one top notch thing to have. To bad it sucks so much LOL

LAte

Lobo

[Daeo]

I don't think it's as high as 40 calories for the whole day Warlobo. If that was the case then a 200lb man with %10BF would need 7200 calories just to maintain his muscle mass. And that's not counting the calories that it takes to maintain his fat...

[archive_FitnessChick]

I really would not recommend putting a child---a 9 year old especially-on a reastrictive diet-theyare at a vital part of growing & to restrict any type of intake of a certain food group is unhealthy.....try a healthy diet & exercise.....the atkins diet is based on a all protein-fat diet- trace carbs.....it is effective for fat burning because it depletes your body of its glycogen stores & causes your body to burn fat as energy. This is a very effective way to lose fat, however once you come off of it & go back to normal eating you bloat right back up.

[Fonz]

After coming off an Atkins diet you will not "bloat
back up so-to-speak". You will merely gain
water due to the fact that water is complexed with
carbs to make glycogen. For every carb you eat
4 grams of water will need to be attached to it to make
glycogen.
In as far as Atkins diet go, it is nowhere near as strict
as Bodyopus.
On atkins, anything goes along as you don't eat more
than 30g of carbs each day. This means that
that the macronutrient ratio does not have to be kept
as 75%fat/25%protein as in bodyopus, but rather
a more enjoyable 60% protein/40%fat or even
higher protein if needed. The benefit of atkins is that
it has BEEN PROVEN TO CAUSE FAT LOSS AT A
HIGHER CALORIFIC VALUE THAN nomal
carbohydrate diets. Muscle realistically burns about
20Kcal/lb and fat nothing as it has no mitochondria to
speak of(The exception being Brown fat, but thats an
entirely different topic).

Godspeed

[Fonz]

Sorry about not answering your post yet, it was
very ungracious of me, but here it is:

Atkins diet is known as a KETOGENIC DIET

What this means:

1. Carbohydrates are restricted to under 30g a day

What happens after 48 hours of this:

1. Liver Glycogen is totally emptied, Insulin levels
drop to below 80mg/dl. GH secretion goes up.

2. The body starts producing KETONES. These
are oxidized fatty acids.

3. A bonus from these ketones is that they BLUNT
HUNGER.

Long-term consequences:

1. The brain runs on Glucose and it takes roughly
3 weeks for the brain to fully adapt to the change
in metabolic chemistry. Glucose to Ketones.#

2. Protein should be kept at 150g/day for the first
3 weeks to spare muscle tissue. This issue has
been confirmed by Lyle McDonald in his bookj
"The ketogenic Diet".

3. After 3 weeks the protein ingested per day can be
dropped to 93g/day, due to the fact that the body
becomes more efficient at processing the ketones.
This issue is also in Lyle McDonalds book.

Hope this helps...

More tidbits,

After 48hrs, the body is burning 90%fat/10%protein
for fuel metabolically.
After 3 weeks, the body begins to burn 93%fat/7%protein
for fuel.

Godspeed

[Badkins21]

Since the details of the diet have already been given...I will only add this.

Putting a 9 year old on ANY KIND OF DIET is going to make him self-conscious. Especially one where he is "not allowed" certain foods.

Get the parent to put in some sports, take him walking/jogging, limit desserts, limit eating at night, GIVE THE KID HEALTHIER FOOD FOR CHRIST'S SAKES!!

A 9 year old doesn't control what he eats, the parents do!!

Am I the only one that finds this ridiculous?

NOTE: I do not have kids of my own, and am not trying to say I know how to parent...but from the 1000s (not exaggerating) of kids I have worked with over the last 4 years, I can tell you that what they don't need is another reason to feel like they're not normal!!

Just my 2 cents... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

Gig 'em, B$...

"Why, they ask?? Because there's nothing I fear more than being ordinary...!"

[Temple]

It caused me to have a fit, the reason that I asked exactly how it worked was that I was looking for the clinical explanation- glycogen bound to x amount of water blah blah blah reduction in insulin yada yada, produtction of ketones which are blah blah. Basically ended up telling her what that first you shed a ton of water weight, then you shed fat but you also lose muscle, resume old eating habits, regain water weight plus have a slower metabolism than before so you end up gaining more fat. This I believe is really someone going off and jumping on a diet craze with little or no information and the if few carbs are good then no carbs are better - you've all seen it before so there is no point singing to the choir on this.
Your posts have caused me to have some questions.
Were the necessary amounts of protein needed per day training requirements or basic requirement for a keto diet? If you are not eating that much protein would it effect the muscle/fat loss ratio. What do you eat on one of these diets besides meat as I can't think of any yummy fat foods that don't contain carbs other than eggs. Don't you feel really tired on this and I have been around some diabetics when they were in ketosis and there was a definite odor to it.
I also have a 7 year old daughter that is on the pudgy side ( really bad genetics) and the most I am doing with her is working on what is healthy and what is not ex. 6 ice cream bars in one sitting is not healthy! and encourageing alot of activity

[WarLobo]

Daeo,

"one pound of muscle is NOT the same a Lean Body Mass. There is an aweful lot of bone, internal organs, brain (in females) and fluid, skin, lungs etc....."

And it's still rigth at 40 +/- a cal or two

LAte

Lobo

[Temple]

Lobo - you plagarist

[Fonz]

The protein requirements I posted are the minimum
protein requirements of the Keto diet.
The reasoning behind these requirements is on the
first three weeks, the brain uses glucose for fuel.
After 3 weeks the brain adapts to the ketones, and
therefore needs less glucose to run(from the
conversion of protein to glucose). And AHH, you
noticed an odour...LOL Ketones are acidic so
they lower the PH of the blood, and cause acetone
to be released orally. This equals bad breath.
Use some kind of breath freshener(sugar free
of course) to counter-act this.
In as far as muscle loss is concerned, that is utter
nonsense. In a study posted in the LoCarb
digest, women ingested the same amount of
calories(1800), had the same protein intake(115g),
but differed in their carbohydrate amounts:
30g/d, 60g/day, and 100g/day.
Suffice it to say, the one consuming 30g carbs a day
lost 95%fat/5% muscle. The one consuming
60g carbs a day lost 85%fat/15% muscle, and
the one consuming 100g carbs a day lost
75%fat/25%muscle.
You are correct in the fact that in the absence of
carbohydrates T3 levels drop drastically, but you
have not taken into account that catecholamine
levels(adrenaline) increase and is stipulated
that they cancel out the drop in T3 levels.

Godspeed

[Temple]

Thanks Fonz and Badkins - parents do not dictate what their kids eat, it is more like the kids dictate what tha parents eat and before you disagree with me on this Lobo I have just one thing to say - you're day is comin'.

[blu]

Plain and simple- if you have junk food available almost any child will eat it before good food.

Answer- if you have to have treats, get real fruit juice popsicles and tons of fruit for snacks. When the kids go shopping with me I allow 1 decision to be maid by them- that's it and if they throw a fit I take the 1 item back. Amazingly my parents taught me I am the adult and I am 100% responsible to show my children how to live- by example- we don't buy junk- they don't eat junk. We pack lunches at night and discuss what are appropriate choices.

Do my children get the occasional ice cream and treat- yup- occasionally. Not every night though.

Sorry i'm ranting- but we are the example- period.

blu

[Daeo]

I have to disagree with you warlobo again about 40 calories per pound of bodyweight. I hope your not saying that you recommend a 140lb female to eat 5600 calories a day. That's way too much. Even for some men. Maybe I'm misunderstading you somehow...

[blu]

I think WL means 40 cals per pound of Lean Body Mass (LBM) = muscle. If a 140 lb woman has 18% bf that means she has 25.2 lb of body fat leaving 114.8 lb of which (x) lbs (don't know the %) are bone, organs etc.- you must remove that % to get to LBM

If someone can give us the approximate % of bone/ organs etc. we can move forward in the equation.

Thanks- blu

[Temple]

Blu - you are right to an extent, while I was typing the they dictate what we eat ( which I was just kind of joking about) my daughter was having a raging fit "I hate chicken, I hate rice, I'm not going to eat it yada yada yada" and her father was telling her "that's what we're having and your eating it and that's the bottom line". But it also gets old going thru that night after night, it's not that I'm a bad cook, she just wants pizza, ramen noodles, chicken strips - you ge the idea and then we have grandma whom nobody has any control over hauling cookies and ice cream in here by the sack full

[Daeo]

Yes but the average person doesn't have a clue how many calories your bones, organs, etc, burns in one day. Plus everyones values would be different and difficult to figure it out...