The unacknowledged steroid story in Major League Baseball and its implications for our community

[archive_Bjaarki]

On Sunday, the NY Times ran its yearly special section previewing the 2005 baseball season. The cover story, by Jack Curry, was "Look who's dominating the old ball game: Aging pitchers blend strength and wisdom." It then goes on to talk about quite a few of the 40-ish major leaguers - Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling, John Smoltz - who are still throwing at the top of their game, winning Cy Young awards, with no signs of slowing down. I was reading the article - I and you, we all know how these guys stay so good - and Curry talks about their dedication, training ethics, intense focus, how they push one another along with their achievements, yadayadayada, and I'm thinking to myself "Yeah, well, do they have anything on Whitey Ford? Sandy Kofax? Bob Feller? But those guys from the old days didn't stay so hot so long. For Chrissakes, Roger Clemens is 42 and just won his 7th Cy Young! Look at the motherfucker! He's a beast, and talks about converting to bodybuilding when his days on the mound are over. C'mon, Jack. Be honest about why these guys stay so damned good for so long." Nothing. More yadayadayada.

Finally, near the bottom of the two-page story, Curry writes:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> When one general manager was asked why so many pitchers were lasting longer, he answered with one word: steroids. The executive said he was joking, but he still did not want to be identified with the remark. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a huge implicit message in this situation - well-conditioned athletes staying strong, fast and smart well past their alloted years on the field - that can really have "traction" with the public's perception. And that is the ability of anabolics to enhance and extend life. If all we can say is that anabolics make you big, the only people who'll come along with us are the more narcissistic GenX-ers. If we can say that anabolics keep you strong, sexy and healthy way way past your middle years, we can influence EVERYBODY.

Think about it.

Bjaarki

First, say to yourself what you would become.
Then, do what you have to do.

[bigboy]

Nice idea. My dad is 68 and has strength and endurance issues. I look at him and think it does not have to be that way. His shoulders started atrophying about 10 years ago. Recently, he asked me if steroids or GH would help him. I was shocked. Almost fearful to answer him but I told him he should get a blood test and see where things are and go from there. I do not know if he will do anything but this guy is as straight as an arrow. The fact that he sees medicinal purposes for steroids and GH and is interested in learning about them shows me how the tide could be changed. Maybe even how it is changing.

[archive_HULK1550]

I like that these stories are coming out, like the other one posted by stud diesel. My only question is i cant imagine with all the bad publicity right now, how many people like these would have to come out and preach about the positive side of gear in order to make an impact. I would guess that it would be a lot.

"Everybody wants to be a body builder but don't nobody want to lift no heavy ass weight"
-Ronnie Coleman

	ASS Nelson Montana

[archive_Mickey]

Honestly, I respectfully disagree.

For one, I think the public has already been brainwashed into thinking that steroids are bad for you and they kill. I think the damage is already done and this will take many years to overcome.

Two, I disagree that Clemens, Johnson, Smoltz and Schilling are all taking steroids. You mentioned Ford, Kofax, Feller and I will throw in Gibson and Carlton. Now, do you think those old timers worked as hard weight training and in off-season conditioning as Clemens? An emphatic phuck no! Those guys didnt really do anything to prolong their careers. These guys now work hard and have personal trainers who have the training knowledge and supps that they didnt have back then. It really annoys me how people just assume that someone is taking something because they are still good or getting better. People can train naturally and get great results!!!

Wood increased his natural test levels from 500 to 1000 using Vitex...how do we know Clemens doesnt use that to help recover? Why do we always assume its juice?

Johnson is still good because he is 6'10 and releases the ball 40 ft from the plate. Smoltz is 38 I believe and has had 3 elbow surgeries....which brings up how modern medicine has also helped revive the careers of players who get the Tommy John surgery and come back stronger then before like AJ Burnett, John Lieber, Smoltz etc.

I know most of you dont agree with me but lets just agree to disagree. I beleive there are amazing athletes out there who dont need what most of you do to perform at a high level. I will stick to this until I see proof. If you look, most steroid users are average guys who use it to become good (Caminiti, Giambi, Sosa, Benito Santiago and I will throw in Juilio Franco who is now 46 I believe etc). The great ones (sans Bonds of course) dont need the stuff to be great (Clemens).

How about Jesse Orosco who is around 50 yrs old? Greg Maddux is over 40 but he never gets mentioned as well just because he doesnt throw hard. However, Maddux never has thrown hard just consistent and yet he is not far off of what he was 10 years ago. My point is there are a lot of guys who are old and playing but its not just because of juice, they actually work hard with our new age training advancements. There is an incentive now...millions of dollars, that they didnt have back in the day.

I dont want to get off topic so if anyone wants to talk baseball I am more than willing because I think I can show that guys have declined but they are adapting to still stay good.

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[This message was edited by Mickey on 04-05-05 at 05:04 PM.]

[archive_Bjaarki]

You make some excellent points, Mickey. Like you always do. That's one of the reasons I enjoy reading your posts.

But remember that it wasn't me who made the connection between aging excellence and steroids. It was the GM of a major league team, who then said he was joking. But wanted to remain anonymous.

I think there is a tendency to attribute athletic excellence to chemical assistance, attributions that are in some instances misplaced. Perhaps Randy Johnson is such a case. But I think it's foolish not to be highly suspicious that in a field of endeavor, like professional sports, that has been saturated with performance-enhancing drugs for nearly a half-century, that performance several standard deviations above the mean was not achieved with every assistance available, including steroids.

After all, WE thought of using steroids to achieve our athletic and cosmetic goals. Why wouldn't a major leaguer think of it, too ???

Not that it matters, but I am 100% certain that Roger Clemens has been a gearhead since the 1980's. He has all the markings of every one of us, only more so.

Bjaarki

First, say to yourself what you would become.
Then, do what you have to do.

[archive_Mickey]

Thanks B.

The biggest factor in all of this is money. Guys work so hard these days because there is an unbelieveable amount of money out there if they succeed. This pushes some of the great ones to become legends and this motivates some of the average guys to take any means possible to achieve what they can not naturally.

I know a lot of people think Clemens juices and I respect you opinion that you think he does. His strong body with tree trunk legs along with his moonface make it obvious for some but not me. He has been great for a long time but he works very hard. The man has had a natural moonface since he was a kid practically. Baseball wise, I think his success has come from his development of an excellent sinker ball later in his career to offset his declining fastball. Earlier (Red Sox years) he relied on his fastball in the upper 90's and a cutter. However, when you age the cutter isnt as effective...you should know this Bjaarki from watching Mariano Rivera the past year.

B, can I ask why you are so sure Clemens juices?

I know the claim of pitchers juicing came from the GM but how much do GM's know about off season training and working out let alone steroids? I mean look at Brian Cashman and Ed Wade...they dont look like they know what a dumbell is! Not trying to be rude, I am just inquiring.

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[archive_Ulter]

I've talked to people who would know inside MLB and out and they agree with that GM. The reason there are so many older athletes dominating or just staying in the lineup in baseball is steroids. Conditioning or not you can't beat father time without testosterone and no amount of conditioning will overcome that in 99% of players. Sure there area a select few athletes that may extend their years as a power player if they're religious about their off-season training. Assuming they started with that much talent. See: Nolan Ryan.
I also think what's left out of this is the fact that people are doing LOTS of things later in life that weren't physically possible 50 years ago. Just because they spent their lives exercising. The total athletic, pro or casual, population is hanging in there much longer. How old was George Foreman last time he as boxing, 50?

You can't lump Maddux in with 40 year old power pitchers but certainly you can throw him in with all the knuckleballers that pitched while carrying AARP cards in their wallet. That's a different talent that doesn't require much test. Maddux gets shelled when an ump squeezes him. So does Clemens. One reason they are still around is the monster truck tire sized strike zone they get from most umps. But that's another issue.

[archive_Bjaarki]

What Ulter said .....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> B, can I ask why you are so sure Clemens juices? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because if something looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's almost certainly a duck.

Clemens has all the classic markings of a gearhead. That's just fine with me. He's just very secretive about it. Like most pro athletes.

Bjaarki

First, say to yourself what you would become.
Then, do what you have to do.

[blu]

It is very impressive to see the oldtimers extend their careers. Certainly some of their continued success comes from more aggressive conditioning, better diet, better physical therapy techniques and a personal desire to stay in the game. One of the questions many of the 37 + crowd is answering is are you willing to put in the extra effort to compete with the 27 year old crowd? More and more of them are saying yes. Do they need the money...hardly. Do they need the popularity...hardly. Are they extremely competitive...yes!

Lets look at pitchers. Look at the large bag of ice on the shoulder of any pitcher that comes out of a game and you will see that the trainers/phys therapists are trying to limit the damage that the overhand pitching motion does to the entire shoulder girdle when those guys throw hard. If Lemens, Smoltz, Maddox, Big Unit, etc. cannot consistently recover from that damage in 4 days, then they are a liability to the rotation. As they move through their career they need to work smarter and not necessarily harder, so they develop conditioning and nutritional programs that work for them personally. But inevitably father time drops the test levels and lowers GH release, slowing recovery. At this point, as a very competitive and generally driven person, they have to look outside the box if they want to stay at the top of their game. They have already tweaked their training, conditioning, and nutrition, so what is left in the bag of tricks? Add in a recovery and strength promoter such as Anavar and maybe some Test and it is very likely they can stay nearer the top of the game for an extended period of time.

It appears that the article was not negative leaning which is refreshing. Let the people decide rather than editorialize.

[archive_TonyDelk]

Obviously most of you know my stance as I'm pretty clear, cut and dried with my opinions with regard to AAS usage in professional sports.

But c'mon now Mickey? Have you ever watched footage of Roger Clemens from his early and Mid 80's days? The guy was a 6-4 Beanpole. In fact the Red Sox let him go because they truly perceived him to be on the downside as his velocity and movement were way down. They trade him to Toronto(or he signed there as a free agent rather because the Sox wouldn't offer him the money he felt he demanded)and boom bang he is Cy Young material again with his heater topping out at 97mph with wicked movement on his forkball.

Since then he's put on about 50 pounds of mass or so with GH and Test and he's the Clemens of 84 again?

We can live in a polyanna world and believe that "hard work, determination, persistence et al" can makeup for drug usage, but to continually argue with the overwhelming evidence otherwise is burying your head in the sand IMO.

I will repeat it again. Drug Use in Professional Athletics is rampant. I know people who sell to them, I know people who supply to them, I know people who put them on programs. If you doubt the autheticity of my words, you are fooling yourself.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to deny your viewpoint or be a condescending prick. It's just that you must realize that drug use in sport is part and parcel with the industry. After a certain point where everybody is "pro" caliber talent wise with respect to their sport, what will separate everybody is:

Smart Ergogenic Usage
Effort
Consistency

Some great natural athletes can get by until their late 20's and some even into their early 30's. But if you want to maintain your edge late 30's and early 40's you better "do something about it".

And lastly, I want to ask everybody here a very serious question. Please answer this question because I want to gauge peoples true feelings.

Do you think that Michael Jordan took steroids/performance enhancers after the age of 34 years old?

I'm interested in hearing your opinions?

Thanks for the discussion.

TD

[archive_Mickey]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Do you think that Michael Jordan took steroids/performance enhancers after the age of 34 years old? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


No.

Nothing I see in his body or performance suggest to me that he was taking drugs. The man was a genetic freak, an athlete that we can only dream of being. Later in his career he could barely dunk and he was 6'6. He pushed off more than he stepped past. And finally in the end, he really couldnt do much when he was around 40. I was at his last game in Philly and he looked like an old man. His decline as he got older was no different than any other NBA star as they got older...he was just the best of them and found other ways to win.

I think if he was using he would have been a lot more athletic when he was older. Jordan was not really athletic at all from 35-40. He basically shot a fadeaway 90% of the time and usually pushed off when he had to drive. He could barely dunk and I just dont see how he was enhanced. Dominique played to late in his career and I think he was more athletic when he was ageing then Jordan...so does that mean Nique was juicing?

I want to hear what Ulter has to say about this since he was close to Jordan for many years.


Hey TD I was hoping that you would reply to this thread, I wanted to ask you something. Is your email still the one in your profile?

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[This message was edited by Mickey on 04-07-05 at 09:48 AM.]