A shameful day for baseball .....

[archive_Bjaarki]

Living up here in Yankeeland, one can't get away from all the hype about the Jason Giambi "scandal." The press has gone nuts over it. How he "betrayed his fans," how he "cheated the recordbooks," and all the other hysterical bullshit that comes up whenever someone notices that ... Oh-my-God-I-can't-believe-it! ... an athlete is using performance-enhacing drugs!

The hypocrisy is thick enough to cut with a knife. And you know what, come April we'll have more talk of the horror of steroids and performance enhancers from color commentators, while between-inning commercial slots are filled with 30-second Viagra spots featuring Rafael Palmiero. What a joke.

It would be funny, were not Jason Giambi, who's a good kid and a fine ballpayer, hanging out there all alone twisting in the wind. No one goes to bat for him. No one tells it like it is in high-level athletics, not even any of the retired vets who have nothing to lose. It's like we have a high school full of kids, about half of whom smoke pot, and this young Giambi kid gets busted for grass and has to wring his hands and tell a whole student assembly how sorry he is that he betrayed them, but he shouldn't go on about it too long because half the kids in the audience have the munchies from that last reefer. Yet no one wonders how Roger Clemens wins the Cy Young at age 42?

I think we should draft some kind of letter to the guy. Tell him that we, at least, perceive the hypocrisy of it all.

This is really a shameful day for baseball. Enough to turn me back into a Cowboys fan. Thank God at least for Jose Canseco. I can't wait to see his segment on 60 Minutes this Sunday.

Bjaarki

First, say to yourself what you would become.
Then, do what you have to do.

[archive_TonyDelk]

I really don't know what to say about this bullshit.

It disgusts every fiber of my being to think that the general public is really under the assumption that Elite Athletes aren't using performance enhancing supplements.

Our society is so Naive. It is laughable that Bob Ley and every other Analyst out there has panels to discuss whether or not athletes are using drugs??????

For God sakes, which pro athlete isn't using Drugs? I know there are some, but it's pretty clear the majority are "making it happen" in some fashion.

Do any of us really believe that Lebron James hasn't used "ergogens"? This guy was using MJ's "Program" since he was a soph in HS.
Amare Stoudemire? Karl Malone(I know the guy who gets him his GH)

Are we to assume that Ray Lewis is a "natural" 265 hulking beast running a 4.4 40 and blowing people up in the secondary?

It's getting out of hand and the hypocrisy of it all is frightening.

I'm done.

TD

[Decaman]

Evertime i read or hear about this crap all i can say to myself is WHO CARES WHAT THE FUCK HE TOOK! Who really cares- like it really matters. It's just so annoying and stupid it I can only find those words to waste on it.



Deal with reality
or
Reality will deal with you

[The Thing]

I was just thinking today how I would like to rip my car stereo out listening to these talk show idiots talk about how there should be an asterick(sp?) next to the recently broken home run records. What a frickin' joke! I guess it is only in the last five years that athletes have tried to gain a competetive edge. Shoot, I remember watching interviews with the old time nfl vets telling their old "tricks" to gain the advantage on the opponent.

It is a damn shame that there seems to be no one out there with a national media prescence that can speak intelligently about anabolics.

The Thing

[archive_Bjaarki]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It is a damn shame that there seems to be no one out there with a national media prescence that can speak intelligently about anabolics. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's why we need NORASL. Without it, we are not blind, we are not deaf, but we are mute.

[archive_Mickey]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Do any of us really believe that Lebron James hasn't used "ergogens"? This guy was using MJ's "Program" since he was a soph in HS.
Amare Stoudemire? Karl Malone(I know the guy who gets him his GH)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont believe that James has used anything at all. He's 6'8 and 240 lbs, its not like he is some hulking beast. Did you see Stoudemire play in HS? I did and he was a beast then too, age has put weight on him not steroids. Malone I belive because they was a big change in his body over the years and it was dramatic with significantly more muscle than anyone else.
Some people are just tremendous athletes. I went to a prominent basketball HS on the east coast and played against the best teams in the country and several guys who are in the NBA right now. There is no way any of them were taking steroids or performance enhancing drugs, they are just stud athletes who are gifted. Most of them cant spell let alone know what to take.

A lot of times people who arent naturally gifted athletically (and I am not directing this towards anyone here personally) have a hard time comprehending how great athletes can do these things. However, we do have some great natural athletes here who can attest that not everyone needs juice to run a 4.4 40 yard dash or have a 35+ inch verticle. I know that I could do that stuff before even lifting weights let alone juicing.

If anyone has seen pics of Giambi before he juiced you will realize that he was NOT a naturally gifted athlete and neither is his brother even after taking steroids. The guy was a nothing before he juiced and had to use drugs to move up through the ranks to get to the majors. Guys like Bonds were stars (3 MVP's) before they even touched it to extend their careers. Compare the two and you see the difference between an elite athlete and an average one. Guys like ARod and Griffey are skinny as hell and they hit over 50 hrs and are fast. Nobody is accusing them of juicing. Some have IT and some dont. The ones that dont have IT juice to try and close the athletic gap between the two.

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[archive_TonyDelk]

You are entitled to your opinion brother. And believe me I respect it. But let me add a few comments to your points.

I played professional basketball for two years overseas. I played D-1 on the East Coast as well. I am 6-1, white and have a 39' inch vertical leap even now at 34 years of age. I could do a lot of things well on the basketball court before ever using performance enhancing supplements. So your argument is very valid.

But if you throw in some well timed Winstrol and Oxandrolone along with some low dose GH and you combine that with elite athletic genes, you have the makings of a Ray Lewis or Lebron James or an Amare Stoudemire.

You really have no knowledge of what you speak if you think NBA players aren't using AAS. And if you want to go further, it's at every level.

Do some of these kids not use? Absolutely. But if you think their educational level gets in the way of their "handlers" and "flesh peddalers" giving them drugs or getting them "on programs", you're dead wrong. AAS use is exploding in the world of HS and AAU athletics now a days.

It is not coincidence or merely "evolution" that kids are bigger, stronger, faster and much more explosive in the last 10 years. Don't you think it's ironic that so many HS kids are being allowed into the NBA these days? Sure most of them aren't mentally ready but the reason they get drafted is because their bodies are. Why do you think this is so?

Believe me it's inherent in all competitive athletes to gain an edge. We all know the story of the olympic poll posed at the 2000 Olympics in Sidney.

I don't know how old you are or how experienced you are in this game, but if you are perceptive and are understanding of what AAS do to venous architectures of human beings, you can tell a juicer within 15 seconds of seeing his/her body. I've stood next to Lebron James over 3 times in my life. There is absolutely no question in my mind this kid has been given/using the "good stuff".

My brother lives in Phoenix and has season tickets to Suns games on the floor. He told me 3 years ago when he first met Amare Stoudemire that the kid was using. He could tell the moment he looked at him. If you ever followed his story at the HS level, where there is smoke there is fire.

What is my point? Pro athletes are seeking an edge. AAS and GH give them that edge better than anything else. When you have all the money and people you can pay with the knowledge to make it work, it's likely to get done.

And please don't ever judge a book by it's cover. Just because a person isn't "huge" or "hulking" doesn't mean he/she isn't using performance enhancers. Some of the best pitchers in the world use AAS just to get an extra 3 mph on their sliders. That extra three mph allows them to make 1.2 million per season versus making $55k working as a coach in some bush league.

And btw....Ken Griffey JR and Arod are not skinny as hell. Junior is naturally "big" at 235 pounds and Arod works his ass off in the gym and is 227 or so at 6-2.

And please this is not an attack directed at you. I understand how amazingly talented many athletes are naturally. But when you combine those inate gifts with intelligent drug use, you create the ultimate equalizers.

TD

	ASS Nelson Montana

[archive_Bchemist]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TonyDelk:

Do some of these kids not use? Absolutely. But if you think their educational level gets in the way of their "handlers" and "flesh peddalers" giving them drugs or getting them "on programs", you're dead wrong. AAS use is exploding in the world of HS and AAU athletics now a days.

Some of the best pitchers in the world use AAS just to get an extra 3 mph on their sliders. That extra three mph allows them to make 1.2 million per season versus making $55k working as a coach in some bush league.

TD<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


This is 100% correct. The managers and handlers of these people get 30% of those millions. As an athlete, it's better that you are as dumb as a rock...then you question less as to what you are putting in your body after you are told to "trust me". I know of an individual right now (probably one of thousands who exists) who scouts high schools looking for the next Lebron and intends to handle him for the next 20 years. You can find these prodigies even as early as freshman and sophomore year.

As handler, your goal is to take care of them early, take care of them well, and precondition them to accept as well as understand that they need to do "whatever it takes" to ensure they achieve their dreams in the NBA/NFL.

I advise this handler as a friend and he is very well versed both from myself and his own research on boards such as these. He laughs at posts such as these when people can't quite accept just how competitive things are behind closed doors. Almost everyone in those locker rooms has a virtual team of people trying to figure out how to gain an edge.

Winning is their (the players, coaches, sponsors, and handlers/managers) entire life...there is nothing else! Look at the degree most of us go just to jump higher, lift heavier, or simply to look or feel better.

And nobody pays us to do it.

[archive_Mickey]

TD you are right and obviously have more knowledge about the subject than my on a pro level because mine only extends to college really.

Again, I wasnt directing my comments towards you at all. I just want everyone to be overly suspicious of everyone who is a great ball player no matter what the sport. I want people to realize that you can achieve many athletic goal naturally and some have that gift that they are born with.

I know Amare's story and how bad his youth was so maybe there is something there but I am just not convinced. I just dont understand why if someone like Amare is juicing and having such success why guys like Darko or Darius Miles wouldnt try the same things to get bigger and better. The only thing that puts some doubt into my mind about the possibility of them using is how they can play and practice so much and have their bodies recover so fast. I still play 2-3 days a week and I am sore as hell after and I lift and run sprints to try and stay in shape. They must use something to help them recover while playing 82 games plus playoffs and baseball players playing 162 + games a year.

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[archive_TonyDelk]

Just a little update.

Did any of you watch that interview with Wallace and Canseco? Brilliant I tell you.

Canseco is an absolute degenerate rat, but at least he has the balls to tell the naive like it is. He basically has come out and says "Everybody" is using. The laundry list of players he names was absolutely astonishing.

IMO, Bonds should send him a check for a couple of million because it's only going to help him when people try to place an asterisk next to his HR record. If it becomes accepted that everybody is/was using, then it's truly an equal playing field already and his accomplishments will always be honored and revered.

TD

[archive_therealj]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TonyDelk:
Just a little update.

Did any of you watch that interview with Wallace and Canseco? Brilliant I tell you.

Canseco is an absolute degenerate rat, but at least he has the balls to tell the naive like it is. He basically has come out and says "Everybody" is using. The laundry list of players he names was absolutely astonishing.

IMO, Bonds should send him a check for a couple of million because it's only going to help him when people try to place an asterisk next to his HR record. If it becomes accepted that everybody is/was using, then it's truly an equal playing field already and his accomplishments will always be honored and revered.

TD<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Problem is 98% of the population believe the big dumb redhead

-----------------------------
-----------------------------
therealj@anabolicfitness.net

[archive_TonyDelk]

How about the quote from Tony LaRussa....

"An Absolute Fabrication"....No way was Mark McGwire using these things on my watch"....

I about fell on the floor. I wanted to rip my plasma off the wall and reach through the screen and choke LaRussa.

<Oh wait> I guess I would have been "roid ragin"....

BTW...Canseco is a lot more intelligent than many give him credit. He surely knows a lot about the biochemistry of AAS and how they work.

I think this is just the beginning of this story.

TD

[archive_Mickey]

I'm just glad that someone finally mentioned Brett Boone's name. The guy literally put on 30 lbs one winter and they attributed it to "working hard in the offseason lifting weights". The guy hit like 42 hrs when his previous high was around 20 and his shoulders looked like bowling balls.

It really pisses me off how everyone gives Mac a pass when he has to be the most obvious of all time. The guy had the worst moonface I have ever seen and he put on 50 lbs between his Oakland days and his final years as a Cardinal.

TD you are right about Canseco, he is no dummy when it comes to AAS. The only problem with him is that his criminal background I think damage his image and bring up the credibility issue. I wish he never got in trouble because then everyone would actually believe him and take him seriously.

"Come on, get serious!" Arnold in Pumping Iron

[archive_therealj]

Makes you just want to bang your head against the wall doesn't it. Hearing people slam Barry (whom I don't like) for taking juice and giving Big Mac and Sammy a free ride is so painful to me. Big Mac is probably the most muscular specimen to every hit a baseball, but he's given a free pass because he's white and likeable and he along with Sammy helped save baseball post 94 strike. I guess this is karma's way of kicking Bonds in the ass

-----------------------------
-----------------------------
therealj@anabolicfitness.net

	ASS Nelson Montana

[archive_Bjaarki]

I completely agree, J.

A guy who approaches McGuire in terms of sheer mass is Roger Clemens. Anyone who thinks he doesn't shoot huge amounts of gear to stay at the top of his game at his age, is just nuts. But you mention that in conversation with someone outside of our fraternity, and they can't believe it.

People are so incredibly naive.

[archive_45goingon20]

Yes, there are others, too many to list. Lenny Dykstra in the early nineties, Brady Anderson in the mid-nineties, list goes on.
Like Jay said, Steroids probably saved baseball during the Soza/Mcguire run.

I just wish one of these guys would come out and explain the benefits to the Press and not hide in shame.
45

[archive_Bjaarki]

I wish so too, 45. Canseco goes a couple of steps in that direction. But the demonization of steroid use is just too powerful for a current user with a public profile to come out and say, "Yeah, I use gear and here's why ....."

It's not just athletes, BTW. Did Brad Pitt put on 20lbs of muscle for the role of Achilles without gear? I don't think so. Did most of the fighters in "Gladiator" get that way on creatine? Sean Penn, Matthew McConaughey, Robert DeNiro, Madonna, Cher ... there are too many steroid users in Hollywood to count, just as in sports.

The whole problem is that emotion is allowed to rule because there are no data. Data go a long way toward bringing arguments back down to earth.

Bjaarki

First, say to yourself what you would become.
Then, do what you have to do.

	PureCEE PureCEE delivers increased strength, pump and muscular endurance without abdominal bloating or subcutaneous water retention often found with creatine monohydrate. PureCEE uses the finest and purest Creatine Ethyl Ester HCL.