Flexibility for BTN Press

[rmexico]

I noticed that a lot of the stronger guys here do BTN push presses. I tried some light BTN military presses with 135 lbs, and it felt like my shoulder was going to pop out of its socket. I also have a hard time getting a low bar position on squats. I'm guessing it's a flexibility issue from doing too much benching. Are there any exercises or stretches I can do to get more flexibile?

[sassy69]

I'll just put in my own $0.02 on BTN.. seated BTN press at 135 lb did a number on my right rotator in 2006 so I think its somethign worth being very careful with.

[Auzzie]

I actually started doing these many years ago to help get the bar lower on my back for squats,

Now its probably one of my favorite exercises,

a good stretch I find for this exercise is just use an unloaded bar for a few weeks, you will soon get the flexibility you need.

Also as sassy has stated it is one of them exercises you really want to take your time getting the weight on.

[Lumberjack5.0]

As one who f'ing loves BTN push-presses, all I can say is that i find them to be quite easy on my shoulders. If you do them correctly, the leg drive takes your shoulders out of the movement while you're in their weakest postion (hope that made sense :D).

Now as far as your specific problem, to me it sounds like flexibilty. Def. make sure shoulder flexibilty is a non-issue before messing with BTN's.

[gorillaboy55]

+ 1 hammer the shoulder flexability/ mobility if you have any joint weakness or instability issues it will be shown or injured by this exercise.

[Evidence]

Here is a link from a highly experienced Division I football strength and conditioning coach on this matter answered at another place. I have spoken with this person numerous times and he's very against overhead pressing becasue of the following.

EliteFTS - Superior Products and Knowledge for Lifters, Athletes, Coaches, and Trainers (http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=22351&tid=)

[silver_shadow]

Here is a link from a highly experienced Division I football strength and conditioning coach on this matter answered at another place. I have spoken with this person numerous times and he's very against overhead pressing becasue of the following.

EliteFTS - Superior Products and Knowledge for Lifters, Athletes, Coaches, and Trainers (http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=22351&tid=)

not very convincing.... and then what about bench press or dips? so there are no upper body lifts that you could do? i find that hard to believe...

oh yea and what about jerks and snatches which involve putting alot more weight overhead?

[rdel85]

whats BTN?

[jpt]

whats BTN?

behind the neck

[Iron God]

It has to do with shoulder mobility. If you have poor shoulder mobility you will hurt yourself doing BTNs

[Sarge]

BTN press (military) and BTN PUSH presses are very different.

I'd blow out something trying to press the bar off my traps... there just no power there, hence the Push (leg drive) then Press.

Some people do BTN military and they go down to about parallel, that would work I suppose... but I wouldn't do it.

[BiggT]

If you've got healthy shoulders to begin with, you'll be fine. Many people have shoulder problems from other things, and they might experience some discomfort, but BTN work in and of itself isn't inherently dangerous.

I've been doing BTN PPs for years with no shoulder problems. Look at it this way, most average gym rats have shoulder issues, usually caused from benching too wide with flared elbows. None of them do BTN presses. All olympic lifters do BTN work and a lot of more serious athletes do them and if you asked around, you'd find significantly less shoulder trouble than with the average gym lifter who doesn't do BTN work.

Basically, if you've got no pre-existing shoulder problems, BTN presses probably shouldn't cause any.

I checked that elite fts article, and for what it's worth, here is my opinion. Coach X is an ass clown in my humble opinion. He knocks anything he doesn't know how to do. For example, with oly lifts, he tears them apart and says box squats (yeah, seriously) build as much speed and explosion as a snatch. What he should say is "I have no experience with the olympic lifts, I have no clue how to teach and coach them, therefore I use some other movements that I really feel build speed and explosion in athletes and I don't feel a need to use the oly lifts". There! would that be so hard? But, like I said, he's an ass clown.

[IliekFude]

ya its all individual and ya dont need a coach or a pro or anyone to tell you that if something hurts its either a mobility/injury issue and you should either find something else to do or find a way to identify and rehab/strengthen whatever is preventing you from doing it without pain.
cant really think of anything else that needs to be added there.

[BiggT]

ya its all individual and ya dont need a coach or a pro or anyone to tell you that if something hurts its either a mobility/injury issue and you should either find something else to do or find a way to identify and rehab/strengthen whatever is preventing you from doing it without pain.
cant really think of anything else that needs to be added there.

Great post, I probably should have said something like this and stopped, lol. But, yeah, to second it, if something hurts obviously don't do it. If you think you found an equal substitute that doesn't hurt, do that. If you really want to do a lift you can't do, find out what the problem is and address it.

[getjacked]

He knocks anything he doesn't know how to do. For example, with oly lifts, he tears them apart and says box squats (yeah, seriously) build as much speed and explosion as a snatch. What he should say is "I have no experience with the olympic lifts, I have no clue how to teach and coach them, therefore I use some other movements that I really feel build speed and explosion in athletes and I don't feel a need to use the oly lifts". There! would that be so hard? But, like I said, he's an ass clown.

i agree .. coach x has always had a reputation for hating on stuff which he has no idea how to implement or teach.

[getjacked]

BTN press (military) and BTN PUSH presses are very different.

I'd blow out something trying to press the bar off my traps... there just no power there, hence the Push (leg drive) then Press.

Some people do BTN military and they go down to about parallel, that would work I suppose... but I wouldn't do it.

exactly.. BTN military is hard as fuck both physically and on the shoulders if you do it low. most people i see do BTN military not to their traps but a bit above that for that reason. with a BTN PP your not in that compromised position near the traps due to legs driving it off of you.

heres ed coan doing BTN pressing (seated):

YouTube - Ed coan 400lb behind neck press. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC15Dgw4Ee4)

[Biter]

I had an article by Joseph Horrigan regarding this tucked away somewhere. Needless to say, he's in agreement that if you like it, then go ahead, but if it bothers you back off as it can cause some serious rotator cuff issues. I had to quit doing it about 10 years ago. I wish I could continue, but unfortunately there is just no way.

[A L]

EliteFTS - Superior Products and Knowledge for Lifters, Athletes, Coaches, and Trainers (http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=22351&tid=)

Box squats better than Snatch.....

:eek2:

[BiggT]

Box squats better than Snatch.....

:eek2:

Yeah, but you need to read between the lines with "Coach X". That translates to this: "I have no idea what a snatch is. I think it might be part of a female's anatomy, but I'm not really sure. I couldn't do a snatch and I couldn't even recognize one if I saw one. I can't coach the lift because I haven't the first clue how to do it and it frustrates me. So, instead of saying I know nothing about snatches and leaving it at that, I will tear them a new asshole and say they suck and are dangerous. This way nobody will ask me about them and expose my total ignorance, and if they do ask me, I will find new colorful way to say they suck and are dangerous without ever really addressing the question and hopefully nobody will realize I am an idiot"

My personal edit: The guy isn't an idiot because he is inexperienced in the Oly lifts, he is an idiot because he can't admit that the fact that he doesn't use them is because he can't do them/coach them.

[Evidence]

Yeah, but you need to read between the lines with "Coach X". That translates to this: "I have no idea what a snatch is. I think it might be part of a female's anatomy, but I'm not really sure. I couldn't do a snatch and I couldn't even recognize one if I saw one. I can't coach the lift because I haven't the first clue how to do it and it frustrates me. So, instead of saying I know nothing about snatches and leaving it at that, I will tear them a new asshole and say they suck and are dangerous. This way nobody will ask me about them and expose my total ignorance, and if they do ask me, I will find new colorful way to say they suck and are dangerous without ever really addressing the question and hopefully nobody will realize I am an idiot"

My personal edit: The guy isn't an idiot because he is inexperienced in the Oly lifts, he is an idiot because he can't admit that the fact that he doesn't use them is because he can't do them/coach them.

T, I just posted that to maybe spark this kind of responses. I didn't write that or feel the exact same way, Buddy did. I respect him a lot and like a lot of things he does. But his philosophies aren't mine. I tend to feel he is too "Westside" for me and has stated many times in articles and seminars that he consults with chiropractors to try to have his programs the most orthopedically sound movements he can. Buddy is extremely passionate and educated, and I know he's really tight with Louie Simmons. I just don't agree with their stance on olympic lifting at the level that Buddy Coaches at. They feel that powerlifters are so strong and so big and olympic lifters and so small and weak overall. Does this look weak to any of you guys?

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m66/Randleman2/Olympic2.jpg

i agree .. coach x has always had a reputation for hating on stuff which he has no idea how to implement or teach.

I understand your point. But every coach is going to have something he doesn't agree with or something he doesn't believe in. I think he does a great job overall being a real passionate individual without an ego. He is just someone that isn't going to sugarcoat anything.

[Lumberjack5.0]

Oly guys are also drug tested. You gotta factor that in when comparing PLs and OLy guys. And I'm certainly not saying that Oly guys are all squeaky clean, but they are sure as hell limited by what they can use and how much of it.

[BiggT]

Evidence, I am totally with you on their stance on Oly lifting. They have a lot of negative things to say about it, but yet everything they say on the topic shows how little they truly know about it. Despite how much respect they deserve in powerlifting, it seems anytime somebody on elite fts mentions olympic lifting, it rubs me the wrong way. Not because they don't like it, that's fine, it's because they talk as if they know it all on oly lifting and they haven't the first clue.

How anybody could think Reza Zadeh is weak or small is beyond me.

[Lumberjack5.0]

How anybody could think Reza Zadeh is weak is beyond me.

Did someone actaully SAY he was weak? That'd really be something. Dude squats 900 ATF in nothing more than knee sleeves :tongue2:

[Evidence]

Evidence, I am totally with you on their stance on Oly lifting. They have a lot of negative things to say about it, but yet everything they say on the topic shows how little they truly know about it. Despite how much respect they deserve in powerlifting, it seems anytime somebody on elite fts mentions olympic lifting, it rubs me the wrong way. Not because they don't like it, that's fine, it's because they talk as if they know it all on oly lifting and they haven't the first clue.

How anybody could think Reza Zadeh is weak is beyond me.


THANK YOU! I've about had enough of Dave Tate and his crap too. When that site first started it was all about GFH (Get Fucking Huge). I respect him and his staff like Jim Wendler. But they were all about one thing, uncensored, unbiased educated panel of real life experience with powerlifting and getting big. That's fine, now he's posting up pics of himself trying to get shredded and as you said they are powerlifters, I don't expect them to be for olympic lifting. That's fine. But they are not experienced with it and just shut it down for that reason. It's like prove to me why olympic lifting isn't good, and it's like they can't do that. He's all about the business end now and trying to sell all the products. I love how in the Q and A every response is in some way trying to get you to use or buy a product with a convenient link to it on the site. Give me a break.

[IliekFude]

Evidence, I am totally with you on their stance on Oly lifting. They have a lot of negative things to say about it, but yet everything they say on the topic shows how little they truly know about it. Despite how much respect they deserve in powerlifting, it seems anytime somebody on elite fts mentions olympic lifting, it rubs me the wrong way. Not because they don't like it, that's fine, it's because they talk as if they know it all on oly lifting and they haven't the first clue.

How anybody could think Reza Zadeh is weak or small is beyond me.

Anyone who believes in any one strict method and denies anything else is restricting their potential. I definitely believe, and moreso daily it seems, that you must try and identify and then take the best parts from everything and apply it to your sport.
Nothing is cookie cutter and to state so is stating his ignorance (if thats what he does).

*edit* just read the above, while tate and efs are definitely becomming more commercial (who can blame them) you cant deny that he and his staffs combined efforts have done more to bring the soviet bloc methods to the general U.S. public than anyone else.

[Evidence]

just read the above, while tate and efs are definitely becomming more commercial (who can blame them) you cant deny that he and his staffs combined efforts have done more to bring the soviet bloc methods to the general U.S. public than anyone else.

I agree. That was just my personal opinion on the matter stated above. I said i respect them and will read there daily.

[getjacked]

THANK YOU! I've about had enough of Dave Tate and his crap too. When that site first started it was all about GFH (Get Fucking Huge). I respect him and his staff like Jim Wendler. But they were all about one thing, uncensored, unbiased educated panel of real life experience with powerlifting and getting big. That's fine, now he's posting up pics of himself trying to get shredded and as you said they are powerlifters, I don't expect them to be for olympic lifting. That's fine. But they are not experienced with it and just shut it down for that reason. It's like prove to me why olympic lifting isn't good, and it's like they can't do that. He's all about the business end now and trying to sell all the products. I love how in the Q and A every response is in some way trying to get you to use or buy a product with a convenient link to it on the site. Give me a break.


ok bro i'm a bit confused.. are you hating on dave tate because he dieted and got lean and documented his progress for all to see? or are you hating because he tries to sell his products? or both?

dave tate is an extremely good business man and has top notch everything (albeit expensive)... the customer service is untouched industry wide as well as the help people can get from top notch lifters. of course he's going to try to sell his products.. AFpushes their products all the time in the "Anabolic Section" and otherwise but that's fine, they're a company and you're on their site.

[getjacked]

and one of their principle reasons behind a lot of coaches shying away from OL is due to the level of expertise required to properly teach a snatch, C&J, etc. and the level of technique required to properly perform them.

depending on the funding of the program, the coaches background, the level of the program, etc.. sometimes it's just not really a viable option (especially lifts from the floor vs. the hang).

this is not to say i agree with no OL, and trust me louie has said some retarded shit in regards to OL, but that is a big reason why some coaches opt not to implement them.

[Evidence]

It's Dave site and he can do what he pleases. I'm just saying they come on saying you'll never see us with our shirts off flexing, this is get fucking huge and move some weight. And now he's on there flexing and selling products. Best of luck to him, it's just my opinion that I don't really like how they had a mission statement when they came on and have veered pretty far off that. They have great products, great staff of people to get advice from, and i'm sure he does quite well financially. He's just not my favorite guy in the world that's all.

[getjacked]

It's Dave site and he can do what he pleases. I'm just saying they come on saying you'll never see us with our shirts off flexing, this is get fucking huge and move some weight. And now he's on there flexing and selling products. Best of luck to him, it's just my opinion that I don't really like how they had a mission statement when they came on and have veered pretty far off that. They have great products, great staff of people to get advice from, and i'm sure he does quite well financially. He's just not my favorite guy in the world that's all.

maybe the "GFH GFH GFH!!" statement would apply if he was still a powerlifter. Him and Jim Wendler are no longer powerlifters.

The whole "GFH GFH GFH" thing has somewhat died down over the years too, as more and more people are realizing that eating the way they were was causing serious health issues. Plenty of SHW PL's are dieting down or have already dieted down over the last year or so.

regardless, this is off topic so i won't mention it further.

[Sue Me]

Well a little late to the discussion and I don't know anything about GFH, but I added BTN Push Presses for, well I guess the past 5mo or so, and I have had no shoulder problems from them. I was hesitant at first b/c of past issues with my shoulders, but with the leg drive, as others stated, it doesn't bother me.

With all that said, I do this exercise 2nd in my shoulder routine so I am already warmed up.

[rawpower]

BTN push presses/jerks work fine for me. I took a little time to get used to them but now think they are very useful indeed. Combined with a more static movement (e.g. dumbell overhead press) they are a great way to build your overhead.

Their advantage for me is that they are easier on the wrists.

Proof they work?

YouTube - 495 BTN Jerk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wou9Xbszdps&feature=related)

YouTube - Mariusz Pudzianowski Shoulder Training (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZc6J89b1-E)

As for the discussions about Westside guys and oly... I don't think it's even worth debating. Louie is a great coach of equipped powerlifting. Anything else he says needs to be reflected on.

Whenever he talks of Oly lifters, runners, throwers, etc, bear in mind that he's also a businessman, trying to make a living by selling his ideas to the widest possible audience.

[GTLifter]

While the topic has pretty much been hammered out I'm still laughing at the thread starter's screen name. "Ron Mexico" :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[rmexico]

While the topic has pretty much been hammered out I'm still laughing at the thread starter's screen name. "Ron Mexico" :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I don't know how Michael Vick came up with that name, but it was truly an act of pure genius.

[GTLifter]

I think it was the cop who wrote the ticket not Vick, he wasn't very smart.

[BiggT]

There actually is a guy named Ron Mexico. He's a regular guy who is an auto parts distributor (or something along those lines). Just a normal guy who didn't even know Vick. Anyway, he began getting prank calls when the whole Vick thing blew up (the herpes thing, not the dog fighting thing) and he even said how the hell did anybody come up with this, was Bob Smith taken?

lol, great name though.