SWALE'S ideas on clomid/post cycle recovery

[global]

Bro's, there's a thread on Steroidology -

Clomid thread

in which Swale claims that nolvadex and arimidex both stimulate LH and FSH the same as clomid, so that clomid is unnecessary after a cycle and you only need to continue using your anti-e (nolva or adex).

What are your opinions of this?

_____________________________

i throw peanuts at old ladies

[SteelPreacher]

This is really the same old arguement Global I'm surprised there was no mention of H C G


...and if they approach us I bury those cockroaches!
Put in your work, know your history and put that girl on staff!

[Fonz]

I say run him over with a MACK truck and let the fishes in the sea sort him out.

Fonz

"Great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about facts, and weak minds talk about people"

---- Fonz 6/2002

[archive_Ulter]

Swale is reading his text books. The medical community, and Bill Lleweyllen, still use the same methods they used 20 years ago with Nolva. Yes this will work but Clomid works better. Published articles or research using clomid for recovery are lacking, although there are a few.
I have used both, clomid is better.

You've no doubt seen this already but in case you haven't it's Bill Roberts take on clomid for recovery.

by Bill Roberts - Clomid is the anti-estrogen of choice for improving recovery of natural testosterone production after a cycle, improving testosterone production of endurance athletes, and is also effective in reducing risk of gynecomastia during a cycle employing aromatizable steroids.

While it has been claimed that Clomid "stimulates" production of LH and therefore of testosterone, in fact Clomid’s activity is achieved not by stimulation of the hypothalamus and pituitary, but by blocking their inhibition by estrogen.

Clomid is a mixed estrogen agonist/antagonist (activator/blocker) which, when bound to the estrogen receptor, puts it in a somewhat different conformation (shape) than does estradiol. The estrogen receptor requires binding of an estrogen or drug at its binding site and also the binding of any of several cofactors at different sites. Without the binding of the cofactor, the estrogen receptor is inactive. Different tissues use different cofactors. Some of these cofactors are able to bind to the estrogen receptor/Clomid complex, but others are blocked due to the change in shape. The result is that in some tissues Clomid acts as an antagonist -- the cofactor used in that tissue cannot bind and so the receptor remains inactive -- and in others Clomid acts as an agonist (activator), because the cofactors used in that tissue are able to bind.

Clomid is an effective antagonist in the hypothalamus and in breast tissue. It is an effective agonist in bone tissue, and for improving blood cholesterol.

Clomid also has the property of reducing the adverse effect of exercise-induced damage of muscle tissue. This is very significant for endurance athletes but is not very significant, if at all significant, with reasonable weight training. Clomid does not perceptibly affect gains of the weight trainer either favorably or adversely in my experience.

The drug seems to have estrogenic effects on mood, which can be beneficial (improving relationships with women by improving empathy) or can yield depression or PMS-like symptoms, but for most users there is no significant effect either way.

The claim that duration of intake should not exceed 10-14 days is incorrect. Clinical studies with male patients have been for periods of a year or longer. This error probably originates from the fact that, for use in women, due to the menstrual cycle there would obviously be no point in trying to stimulate ovulation all four weeks of the month. Thus, use in women is limited to 10-14 days. That limitation is not because of toxicity.

Clomid is in fact useful throughout a cycle if aromatizable drugs are being used. I do think however that to be conservative, one should use it no more than 2/3 of the time throughout the year or a little less.

[mkp]

Interesting take on post-cycle. I am getting ready for that now....was thinking nolva. How do you figure other post cycle testes size recovery therapies into your thinking Ulter? Also Arimidex.....how do you figure it in?
thanks

[archive_Ulter]

That all depends on how long you've been on and how much atrophy you've suffered. If it's extreme then use H C G for a week at the end of your cycle. Then use clomid as usual. But most people don't need the H C G and their testes go back to normal within a month anyways.

[swale]

For the record, I have NEVER advocated using Arimidex post-cycle, as it's deleterious effects on the recovering lipid profile add to plaque deposition within the cardiovascular system. In short, driving estrogen levels below normal range is unnecessarily unhealthy.

While Clomid, Nolavdex, and A-dex have all been shown to increase LH production, this is a case where one must think beyond what you may read in a medical book, or in selected studies conducted on subjects within physiological ranges.

*** has been shown, through NUMEROUS and irrefutable studies, to have tremendous benefits with respect to aiding post-cycle recovery. But ONLY if it is used DURING the cycle to maintain Leydig cell form and function. Post cycle, it will further inhibit the recovering HPTA. Once again, one must be able to read a given work, then appropriately apply that knowledge to real-world situations.

ANY ADVICE I MAY GIVE IS JUST FOR SHITS AND GIGGLES, AND DOES NOT SUBSTITUTE FOR A PROPER EVALUATION BY A PHYSICIAN.

[This message was edited by swale on 06-03-2003 at 01:33 PM.]