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archive_Bjaarki
05-02-2003, 10:11 AM
This is addressed to all the Small Guys or, rather, the Non-Big Guys in the readership. You Big Guys/Gals ... go take a hike! I’m about to blow your well-kept secret, and this is only for the Non-Big Guys like me.

Okay. Listen up!

Whenever you talk to a Big Guy or Gal about their training, especially how long they spend in the gym, what do they tell you? They have trouble looking you in the eye, they try to look innocent, and then they give you an answer like, “Oh, hardly any time at all. I like to keep it brief. Real brief. 30 minutes. 40 minutes at the outside. 3 lifts, 3 sets each and I’m done. Wham-bam, thank-you-ma’am!” That’s the kind of answer the Big Guys give you all the time, ain’t it?

Well ... I’m here to tell you, son ... It’s complete and utter bullshit!

Since the beginning of the year, I’ve been training 5 times a week with two of the AF board’s most serious bodybuilders, IronGod and FitnessChick. They’re pretty representative of the Big Guys/Gals out there, both genders. So, I’ve observed them, we train together, and I know exactly what they do. And if I’ve ever seen them train for less than 90 minutes – more typically it’s a full two hours – then you can kick my ass and call me Rita.

Just as an example, on Wednesday IronGod and I did back/bis. We warmed up with 5 sets of shrugs in a step-through bar. Then we moved over to the power rack for 3 sets of rack deads. Then 3 solid sets of bent rows. By this time our lumbars were smoked, so we moved to the cable and did 2 sets of seated rows. Then 3 sets of pulldowns. Then we started on bis, and did 4 sets of spider curls, 3 sets of hammers, and finished up with 3 sets of straight-bar 21’s. IronGod threw in 2 sets of agonizing wrist-curls as an afterthought.

Count the sets. Does that look like a BS 30-minute workout to you? 28 sets, bros – 21 if you don’t want to count the shrugs and wrist curls - took us a solid hour and 50 minutes. We were not flying through the gym at warp speed, but we were cooking right along, moving well at a standard IronGod level of intensity, stripping and setting up the bar for one another, a decent pace. And this is about what we’ll do for quads/calves, chest/tris, hams/glutes, and delts/tris, same kind of deal, a shitload of sets and a loooong time in the gym.

So ... why do the Big Guys keep up this bullshit story about how briefly they train, "Less is more"? It’s obvious, ain’t it? To keep the rest of us smaaaaaaalllllll and to get our shiney asses out of their gym! That’s why, baby! Do you seriously think that guys and gals who like to be bigger than anyone else, and who like to train in a gym like they own the place, do you seriously think they're going to advise your little chicken-ass to bogart their incline bench for an hour or two? Get real! They’re in there pumping away for a couple-three hours while feeding you – you little 180lb wimp! – a horseshit line to “Keep it heavy ... but brief!”

Yeah right!

Next time one of you Non-Big Guys is getting ready to leave the gym and you see some Big Guys over at the squat rack yucking it up, what do you think they’re laughing at? Seriously. What do you think they’re laughing at? You, man! They’re laughing at YOU! They’re watching you pack up your gear bag after a half-dozen measly little sets and saunter off, pleased with yourself for “training like a Big Guy,” then they’re laughing at your gullibility while they go back to push the piles of iron, now cleared of inane and distracting little influences like YOU!

Test it, if you don’t believe me. Show up at the gym, note what Big Guys are there, do your little 40-minute “Big Guy workout,” walk out ... and sneak back in an hour later! Surprise! The Big Guys are still there, aren’t they?

The Secret is out!

Bjaarki

... Then, do what you have to do.

DREXX
05-02-2003, 10:16 AM
LIAR! LIAR! LIAR!

http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If it's not hard it's not worth doing...

BrahmaBull
05-02-2003, 10:31 AM
Bjaarki:

I thought you had been weaned away from the 35-set chest workout. Now it sounds like you are promoting it. I suspect you have got big yourself and are now trying to sabotage the rest of us!

BB

W8's
05-02-2003, 11:22 AM
i guess it depends what level your at. if your growing has slowed down you might need to train that long. Some others my acutally be able to put a hurting on their body with a sub 60min workout.

Monster
05-02-2003, 12:01 PM
I know I wasnt supposed to look, but I couldnt help it. Since the cat is out of the bag, lets just let it all hang out. Everyone has been brainwashed into this fear of "OVERTRAINING"!

Ive trained with a lot of people over the years, men, women, wimps... to be honest with you most the women trained harder than most of the men (though they lifted less, they had twice as much heart).

Out of everyone, there have only been two or three Ive shared the inside secrets with, and of them only two listened and one eventually quit.

I took myself from 170lbs natural to close to 200lbs natural. From there I used gear and have gone up to 280lbs.

The two of them started off and 170 and 165ish and both trained with me for at least a decent amount of time, then they basicaly applied what I told them to their own schedule.

One went from 170 to just under 190 natural and with a little consertative gear use he was at around 225 and happy with it when we last saw each other.

The other only went from 150 to about 165 natural (helluva metabolism) over the course of several years before I met him. In the end he did one cycle and after that managed to hold onto around 180lbs lean. He said the gym and work were too much combined and ended up quitting the gym. I havent seen him in a long time.


When I train alone, I cant get out of the gym in under and hour. Ever.
With a partner (which NEVER occurs anymore) I was easily there for 2 hours, and when the three of us were there it was between better than two hours.


I am going to spit out the most important things Ive learned about training. This isnt going to be the old standby bullshit like "Stick to basic movements" and such. These are more offbeat things, maybe a little odd, but anyone who is big, and by big I mean "leaps and bounds past normal", wouldnt dispute them (the gym Im at has a couple of 300lb guys and many many over 250lbs).



I'll call these my 7 personal Training Scriptures:

#1. Dont read the magazines.
I like to get Flex for the pictures, but for gods sake dont use Flex workouts as the cornerstone of your training. Think about it. 12 issues a year, a bicep or chest program at least every other month, year after year...

#2. Worry about eating and recovery, DONT worry about overtraining.
As long as you have at least fundamental knowledge of training your diet can compensate for a little "too much" work on a muscle (of course everything has its limits, but lets say we all at least have a bit of common sense). Dont worry about overtraining, worry about underrecovering. A good diet can compensate for imperfect training, but perfect training will NEVER compensate for a poor diet.

#3. Rest between sets.
I rest at least a minute, usually 2, but more if need be. How do you bring about muscle growth at the gym? By causing the muscle tissue to have to overcompensate for a too great workload. A brief rest and jumping back into a set and finding that you cant move the weight is usually attributed to fatigued muscles, when it actually is probobly that you havent allowed ATP reserves to replentish. A longer rest can help you lift heavier for more sets and increase intensity. Personally, I need to lean on something after a set, Im not thinking about jumping back in for another in 30 or 45 seconds. If you can stroll around after a set and talk to people or skip over to the drinking fountain, maybe you arent putting your all into the set? Rest for a minute, stretch the muscle group lightly and do the set like your life depended on it.

#6. Remember: Weight Is Relative!
I see this all too often. A "smaller" guy (not an insult... he is on the road to being big http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) will be doing (for example) dumbell curls with a weight that is far too much. He'll be doing sloppy sets of 3 reps. I got friendly with one guy and he eventual explained his training philosophy. ~"The "Big Guys" train heavy, so heavy weights are the way to be big."~ Is that true? Youre god damn right it is! BUT I told him to actually watch the entire set of the "Big Guys". They may be using what looks like an insane amount of weight, but they are still getting 8 or 10 or 12 reps from it. Go heavy, not TOO heavy. Everybody reading this has seen guys at the gym who have trained for years and made no noticable improvments to their physique, think of them when you need to swallow your pride and use less weight (thats what I do http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).

#7. Dont stick to basic compound movements, but ALWAYS include them.
No dumbass on earth has ever read where someone said "stick with the basics" and then stuck with bench press, squats and barbell rows. Incorporate other movements (and yes even machines) into your training, just dont do it to the exclusion of the "basics".




As Bjaarki has stated, the BIG GUYS are not in there for 45 minute "workouts". I personally train alone now because I got tired of my various partners whining and excuse making. I train very intensly, but I do it because I love it. Thats the only way to be big.
If you were just training arms you might be able to make a short day of it, but if you come in to train legs and you can get out in less than an hour, youre not "Training". Youre "working out".

You train your muscles to build your body, working out is for fitness enthusiasts...
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-------------------------


"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

Thiassi
05-02-2003, 12:11 PM
A lot of good info here. But I like to read the magazines. I know with EAS I can look like Priest in no time!

L8R

CONTRACTION
05-02-2003, 12:29 PM
This is great info. Most of the more muscular people at my health club are the ones who do 2hr workouts. Now that I think about it...I made more gains back when I did 2hr workouts. I'm starting to think maybe that's why my progress has slowed down. I think it's time to change up my training a bit. Thanks for sparking some brain cells...

Monster
05-02-2003, 12:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CONTRACTION:
Thanks for sparking some brain cells...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats what its all about!

I had a similar epiphany a few years back. I had been training biceps for 8-10 rep sets and couldnt figure out why they had stopped progressing. I looked over some old training logs of mine (I dont keep one now) and saw that in the best days of bicep growth for me I was in the 10-12 range. I switched back to that and it worked like a charm!

-------------------------


"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

Monster
05-02-2003, 12:38 PM
Oh, and I need to ad a disclaimer to the "Scriptures".



If you arent keeping your nutrition right, it wont work for you (but then again, if you arent eating to grow, nothing will work).

-------------------------


"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

CONTRACTION
05-02-2003, 01:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I looked over some old training logs of mine (I dont keep one now) and saw that in the best days of bicep growth for me I was in the 10-12 range.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I used to keep a training log also and that is another key thing. When I kept a log and trained longer, guys were thinking I was juicing even though I wasnt at the time. A close friend (who used to compete in Europe) would say, "dude are you on something?". I even had guys asking, "how the hell you can they get a chest like mine". Oh man, it's time to find my old journal and start training like the old days again...

Corleone
05-02-2003, 02:23 PM
B, I think it's more individual then you think. I don't need to lift for more than 1 hour to get a workout. I'm not a bodybuilder but I've had some pretty good size. Maybe some do need to workout for 2-3 hours, but I get out of the gym as fast as I can.

Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do.

Monster
05-02-2003, 02:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Corleone:
I'm not a bodybuilder but I've had some pretty good size. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats the whole point though. Pretty good size is one thing, we're talking about going far beyond ones genetic potential. Pushing the envelope of muscularity.

In gods plan I doubt there was ever a design for a 6'5" lean 318lb man. But I see one every day, and one not much smaller than him.
All of my family on either side as far back as you can find pictures were small people. Probobly in the 150's-160's.
My lean bodyweight is easily 50lbs higher than that of any family member of mine even with them covered in fat.

Taking your physique to an extreme requires taking extremes.
Including training.

Not everyone can do it, not everyone is cut out to do it, but those who can always seem to find that they need to go to this extreme level of training to bring themselves up to the phase of development.

I'd say for the average recreational bodybuilder, it would not be needed, but for someone hoping to compete (or just wanting to be insanely large) it may end up being the only way...

-------------------------


"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

Corleone
05-02-2003, 02:49 PM
http://www.anabolicfitness.net/images/postfight.jpg

Corleone
05-02-2003, 02:52 PM
Don't mind the flab around the midsection, I actually have a six pack but you couldn't tell from the way I was slouched http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I wasn't flexing in that pic, but was pumped.

I wish I had a better one, but don't have a digi camera and that's the only pic I could find where you could get a good view.

Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do.

archive_Bjaarki
05-02-2003, 03:07 PM
Monster, what the hell happened to your #s 4 and 5 in your Training Scriptures? The others were good stuff. Where's #4 and 5? Holding out on them? Don't want the Non-Big Guys to see them? Afraid we might get big and get in your way down at The Powerhouse Gym?

See? This is more proof of what I'm coming to realize is "The Big Guy Conspiracy"! Fuckers, every one of 'em!

Bjaarki

... Then, do what you have to do.

archive_Iron God
05-02-2003, 03:20 PM
They say less is more, because it is true for NATURAL athletes.

We take steroids so we can train like animals for long periods of time.

2000mg of Anabolics per week, 5500 calories per day. 4 ius of GH , 20 units of insulin. 10 hours of sleep. I could pretty much train all day and still grow.


Bjaarki try our workout natural and you wouldn't get past 2 weeks.

Plus we do a shit load of compounds and our workouts are geared more towards being 100% for each set. Thats why it takes so long.

Besides, if you train too quickly, lactic acid burn becomes a limiting factor which is detramental to our purposes.

archive_FitnessChick
05-02-2003, 03:36 PM
I have to throw in my 2 cents here too....You are correct....I don't practice what I often preach to the majority...why....

Most people who train(whom I dish out advice to on a daily basis~not the people from this board though), aren't at the level we are at. I no longer train the way I did back in the day~ 12 sets for majors, 8 for minors~The reason being is I train by how my muscles feel, and I train for feeling different parts of my muscle~For example, my back day....I start off with 3 sets of wide grip pullups to warm up and get the blood flowing, then I jump into heavy deads~3-4 sets(so now my lower back is smoked). I move onto either heavy bent over rows or really strict t-bar rows, so I thoroughly work my inner back. Then I move onto some sort of Pulldown exercise to hit my lats, then onto a low row exercise for lower lats(either some form of low rows with assorted grips or hammerstrength low rows)...Mind you EVERY rep of every set for every exercise is SUPER STRICT! I am only working the desired part of my muscle which I want to hit. No pulling with my biceps, just drawing my elbows back and squeezing the shit out of my back muscles...Then I finish up with behind the neck pulldowns 2 sets which I superset with lat pullovers(on cable). Finally moving onto traps, for 3-4 sets, either triangulated trap bar shrugs or hammer trap machine......That is something that may sound like alot for back, but since I started training like that my back has blown up...

So yes, Bjaarki, you are right. I knew this post was coming when you asked me that very question on Monday afternoon. http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

archive_Ulter
05-02-2003, 03:41 PM
4 and 5 had to do with Monster's alternative lifestyle and he didn't feel this was the appropriate thread for them.

archive_FitnessChick
05-02-2003, 04:26 PM
Good eye Ulter http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Monster
05-02-2003, 04:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ulter:
4 and 5 had to do with Monster's alternative lifestyle and he didn't feel this was the appropriate thread for them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yeah... I'll wait till all the board memebers are 21, then I'll post them...

-------------------------


"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

Corleone
05-02-2003, 04:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FitnessChick:
I no longer train the way I did back in the day~ 12 sets for majors, 8 for minors~<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's exactly how I run it, except I do 16 sets for back. I'll also switch it up every now and then to shock the muscles, once a month I'll go in and do 16 sets for minors and 24 for majors just to give them something different and blow them out. I won't ever let my muscles adapt to my workout.

I think the most important thing is to make every rep count, even the warmups. I am very intense on my training days.

Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do.

archive_Iron God
05-02-2003, 04:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> This is more proof of what I'm coming to realize is "The Big Guy Conspiracy"! Fuckers, every one of 'em!

Bjaarki

... Then, do what you have to do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since January your 20 lbs heavier, you look fuller, leaner and your a hell of a lot stronger. So what do you have to cry about? http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Monster
05-02-2003, 05:07 PM
Corleone: You look great, you really do. Youre head and shoulders above not only the "average person" but over most people who train regularly. But still it qualifies as "good size", even "really good size", but not extreme size.
(I would imagine extreme size would be a hinderance in your sport though...?)

Fitnesschick, I agree. I am right at that same volume on back, and I dont find it to be excessive at all. Some days I feel like I could add a set in still...



As for #4 and #5... I was cutting and pasting to get them in a sort of order and forgot to paste. Let me see if I remember...


#4. Form over Function.
Dont think of training as "weight training", think of it as "muscle training". So many people "weight train" in that they are training the weight to go from here to there instead of training the muscle to contract and extend.

#5. Hmmm, I dont remember what #5 was about. I know it was witty and insightful, and chock full of knowledgable comments and was so precise that no one could possibly question it... trust me... it was...

-------------------------


"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

Corleone
05-02-2003, 05:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Monster:
Corleone: You look great, you really do. Youre head and shoulders above not only the "average person" but over most people who train regularly. But still it qualifies as "good size", even "really good size", but not extreme size.
(I would imagine extreme size would be a hinderance in your sport though...?)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea I did have to cut some size. I made weight at 197.5. But before I was fighting I was able to get my weight up to 227 and was pretty massive. . .I couldn't wipe my ass or scratch my shoulders. . . That kinda makes it hard to be a functional athlete http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But I've never really thrived to have the extreme bber look, though I think I could get to it if I put the effort forth, I have good muscular response with AAS and training.

Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do.

Monster
05-02-2003, 05:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Corleone:
I've never really thrived to have the extreme bber look, though I think I could get to it if I put the effort forth
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You definatly could. Most people in the gym wont get to the point you have in the first place, and combine that with the discipline you have as an athlete (and your sport in particular calls for more discipline than more traditional sports) and there is no question.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Corleone:
I couldn't wipe my ass or scratch my shoulders
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL
There is this spot on my lats near my shoulder blade where an annoying bit of hair grows... I used to be able to shave it off. Now I cant get anywhere near it http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Wiping my ass looks similar to doing a stiff leg deadlift, and just as exhausting!!!

-------------------------


"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

archive_Iron God
05-02-2003, 05:45 PM
Monster,
I use the sumo squat back to front method myself.

Corleone
05-02-2003, 05:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Monster:
Wiping my ass looks similar to doing a stiff leg deadlift, and just as exhausting!!!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL!

I had to go in between my legs. . .it made me wonder how guys like Ronnie Coleman get by doing normal daily activities like showering or even shooting themselves, they must have to have every single thing done for them. It's a disability being that big.

Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do.

Tomo
05-02-2003, 06:07 PM
Don't kid yourself- you look good corleone

SteelPreacher
05-02-2003, 06:39 PM
Holy Shit B, u know how to start a rukus! I'm jealous, I would love to train that way. Thanks for sharing it too! I'm growing slowly around 170 and thats good for me, I'm on maintence type juice still trying to get as strong as possible especially in my back. Just started a new job landscaping and it's rough as fuck out dragging 80 pound tree lims all day. Especcialy trying to conserve the calories. My buddy says I should Puree my chicken etc and drink it. I can't do it yet I think I'll puke. Again thanks from a "small" guy.

http://www.anabolicfitness.net/images/kp.jpg
...and if they approach us I bury those cockroaches!
Put in your work, know your history and put that girl on staff!

massxpress
05-02-2003, 06:52 PM
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif w/o question heavy volume is the way. It always has been, if you want that "muscle maturity look" allit is is driving the muscle into the ground and then feed it...bingo. I do not agree with the rest times. I have never went over a minute, except when supersetting or stuff like that. Squats maybe. But I'll tell ya if you do squats last in a wkout and hit 12-20 reps with minimal rest..man what a pump. Back in the day we called this training like a bodybuilder. The powerlifters layed around 5-10 minutes, wrapped up etc., and the BB pumped up

archive_Bjaarki
05-02-2003, 07:39 PM
Yeah, SteelPreacher. I know how to start a ruckus, alright. That's what Ulter pays me the big bucks for. That, and sweeping up, taking out the trash at the magnificent AF World Headquarters in Orlando. He told me he'd get me a gig where I could "clean up." That was a couple of years ago.

But I'm not complaining, and I'm not complaining to you either, IronGod. I've learned more from you and FitnessChick in 4 months than I did in the prior 7 years I'd been lifting. Besides, I love you guys like family, you know that .....

But it's interesting that the truth is finally coming out here, don't you think? I'm glad to see that. Even Ironmaster, whom I've known for years and would trust with my life, still spins me this 30-minute-workout bullshit. "Keep it brief, Bjaarki. You're overtraining!" Well, I'm not back into my 35-sets-of-inclines chest workouts, IronGod sees to that, but I'm glad to see you guys finally admit - I had to extort it from you with a thread like this, but at least it's out now, we got you on record here - that there is no such thing as less-than-one-hour workouts if you want to train at an elite level, that the keep-it-brief jazz is a complete fantasy. 90 minutes. Two hours is more like it.

How in the hell could it be otherwise? Listen. Take one look at IronGod, catch a mere glimpse of FitnessChick, and if you ever thought either one of these specimens limit their training to "brief" workouts I'd have the guys in white coats at your door in 15 minutes!

Monster, I don't know whether you're trying to pull another fast one on us small-uns with this forgotten Scripture #5. I'll bet that was the real juicy one, the one that took you from 220 to 280. Maybe you'll share it when you trust us enough. Or when we're big enough.

<<< I tell ya'! These Big Guys, you gotta watch 'em every friggin' minute!>>>

05-02-2003, 08:01 PM
I love this place... what a great post!

Doggy

Holden MacGroin, GW
05-02-2003, 08:14 PM
Where did the "less is more theory" start from. Its like the idea of spending quality time with your kids - 15 minutes a week of "quality time. That is why I am going camping with my son next weekend. Spend some long time together, and give my wife a bit of a break for a mother's day present (we will be back Sunday though to wish her a Happy Mother's day - by the way, all of you guys have mothers - try and wish them a happy mother's day) We have done it at least once every year for 6 years now and I hate camping - but we end up having lots of great memories each year.

I know from several other things (sex, money etc) that more is more. The study below shows that the effect of AS is dose related. I would like to see a study that gives a uniform dose to BB'ers (like 20 mg per KG per week) and then varies the amount of protein in the diet to see if more protein actually produces better results.

I think it goes to say that more training will yield better results - the guy who spends an hour a day shooting free throws will do better than if he spent 10 minutes. Heavier poundage will make you stronger than light poundage. more is more.

However as IG points out, gear helps a person recover and withstand over the top levels of training.
=================

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2003 Jan;284(1):E120-8 Related Articles, Links


Effects of an oral androgen on muscle and metabolism in older, community-dwelling men.

Schroeder ET, Singh A, Bhasin S, Storer TW, Azen C, Davidson T, Martinez C, Sinha-Hikim I, Jaque SV, Terk M, Sattler FR.

Department of Medicine, Keck School of Medicine, University of Southern California, Los Angeles 90033, USA.

To determine whether oxymetholone increases lean body mass (LBM) and skeletal muscle strength in older persons, 31 men 65-80 yr of age were randomized to placebo (group 1) or 50 mg (group 2) or 100 mg (group 3) daily for 12 wk. For the three groups, total LBM increased by 0.0 +/- 0.6, 3.3 +/- 1.2 (P < 0.001), and 4.2 +/- 2.4 kg [P < 0.001), respectively. Trunk fat decreased by 0.2 +/- 0.4, 1.7 +/- 1.0 [P = 0.018), and 2.2 +/- 0.9 kg [P = 0.005) in groups 1, 2, and 3, respectively. Relative increases in 1-repetition maximum [1-RM) strength for biaxial chest press of 8.2 +/- 9.2 and 13.9 +/- 8.1% in the two active treatment groups were significantly different from the change [-0.8 +/- 4.3%) for the placebo group [P < 0.03). For lat pull-down, 1-RM changed by -0.6 +/- 8.3, 8.8 +/- 15.1, and 18.4 +/- 21.0% for the groups, respectively [1-way ANOVA, P = 0.019). The pattern of changes among the groups for LBM and upper-body strength suggested that changes might be dose related.. Alanine aminotransferase increased by 72 +/- 67 U/l in group 3 (P < 0.001), and HDL-cholesterol decreased by -19 +/- 9 and -23 +/- 18 mg/dl in groups 2 and 3, respectively [P = 0.04 and P = 0.008). Thus oxymetholone improved LBM and maximal voluntary muscle strength and decreased fat mass in older men.

South of the border
05-02-2003, 09:26 PM
Bjaarki,

I could not disagree more with your statement. I think if people would spend less time in the gym and work more intensely on the squat and deadlifts while they are in the gym (and eat more) there would be a lot more big people around.

bigboy
05-02-2003, 09:57 PM
Extreme mass is created by extreme overloading and it requires extreme maintneance..makes sense to me...

most people do not get results from ttaining because they do not eat well...eat well and do not train and one will still look good...add sometraining and a lot can happen with a good diet.

Corleone
05-02-2003, 10:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bjaarki:
that there is no such thing as less-than-one-hour workouts if you want to train at an elite level, that the keep-it-brief jazz is a complete fantasy. 90 minutes. Two hours is more like it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

B, you're being very closed minded. There is such a thing, low volume-high intensity, many elite level athletes use this approach. . .you think everyone spends 2 hours a day in they gym? Hell no, it's unnecessary.

I used to spend 2-3 hours a day in the gym, I used to be obsessed. The problem was that I learned I wasn't growing as much anymore. I noticed I couldn't sleep as well as night, I just felt rundown. I was basically overtraining. That was when my friends dad who used to be an ifbb pro introduced me to low volume-high intensity. My body really started growing when I decided to use this theory, I was able to get above the 203 platue I was stuck at, and exploded to 227.

First thing I'll do before I even step into the gym is get my intensity ready. I'll visualize my exercises, and challenge myself to lift heavier than I did last week. I try to get myself very motivated and excited to hit the gym.

On my workout days I push any certain bodypart to the extreme, on my failure sets I can't even move the part I'm exercising. My first two sets I use a good amount of weight and do 12-16 as a warmup. For my third set I'll go all out, as heavy as I can, usually hitting 4-6 reps until failure, if I didn't hit enough weight to go to failure, I'll add another heavier set and make sure I push my body til it quits. Every once in a while I'll also throw in some forced reps and negatives to push it up a notch. After I've hit failure on a particular exercise there is no point in going further. The key is high intensity, pushing your body past it's physical limitations. I cannot move after my lest set.

If you can keep this up for 2 hours more power to you, I don't see the point in working out longer, my muscles get pumped, I grow and I believe working out any further while I'm fatigued like this would cause sloppy form or injury. And I sure don't see the point of pushing past 12 sets because I've already hit the muscle and by this point if I'm at 75% strength capacity I'm lucky, what's further lifting going to do? I also believe it's taxing mentally to try to keep 100% intensity for 2-3 hours.

I'll do 12 sets and get out of the gym in an hour.

Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do.

Skaver
05-03-2003, 03:42 AM
I disagree. I consider myself a "big guy" sitting at around 240 clean at 5'8". I'm a powerlifter spending no more than 4 days a week in the gym for 45min each session. When I trained for long sessions at the gym 5 days a week I had trouble breaking 200lbs even when juiced to the gills. When i switched from bodybuilding to powerlifting and upped the intensity and decreased the frequency I grew like a weed.

I say find what works for you, and stick with it.


** Magnus Validus Formosus **

archive_Mr. Nobody
05-03-2003, 06:53 AM
well lets look at it this way:
I spend a good time warming up. It takes me half an hour just to get to my working weights in most compound exercises. The total amount of working sets for me has actually decreased over the years.....it is easy to do 4 sets of heavy squats, when your max is 315.....try that at 635,different story.....same with bench and deads.
Rest intervalls increase as well.

I never get out of the gym in 45 min's, but mostly cause of caution, proper warm ups and rest periods.

If I was starting out right now, 45 minutes would be more than plenty

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

archive_Ulter
05-03-2003, 08:06 AM
I have done both ways over the years and for myself I have found that I will grow bigger like Mr Nobody, Skaver and Corleone are training than if I am spending 2 hours training. It took many years for me to admit it because the 2 hour workouts were more satisfying. I felt like I had done well in the gym that day. But I always grow faster and bigger with heavier, shorter, high intensity workouts.

E2
05-03-2003, 08:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Iron God:
They say less is more, because it is true for NATURAL athletes.

We take steroids so we can train like animals for long periods of time.

2000mg of Anabolics per week, 5500 calories per day. 4 ius of GH , 20 units of insulin. 10 hours of sleep. I could pretty much train all day and still grow.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


LOL!!

That's what I was waiting for!!! Triaining in the magazine and most of the advice given by everyone does not take into consideration tons of steroid useage. With the juice, overtraining is almost nonexistant.

http://anabolicfitness.net/images/e2.jpg

=w=
05-03-2003, 10:34 AM
Coreone,

You have to consider that you are doing this type of volume in addition to your sport training. It wouldnt make sense to say that someone who is not taxing their body through that extra work you are doing could not handle more work elsewhere (in the gym). A lot of this is just going to come down to what the rest of your life is like. If you work construction or fight (or any other sport) your volume will need to be lower w/ weights in order to compensate for the extra stress your body encounters outside the gym. If you lead a stress-free, low activity life it would only stand to reason that you could handle more volume and thus grow better with higher volume. And as such, being that we I am talking about outside factors at play , as mentioned diet is one of the most important outside factors (diet timing/content/volume).

bad brains
05-03-2003, 10:46 AM
Good post B, now I don't feel so bad for spending hours at a time in the gym.To each his or her own......... http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I against I.......H.R. Anger is a gift...Zack(RATM)

Corleone
05-03-2003, 01:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by =w=:
Coreone,

You have to consider that you are doing this type of volume in addition to your sport training. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I didn't mention is that if I'm training for a fight, I only spend 2 days a week hittin the weights.

For a good time I wasn't fighting and just weightlifting, this is when I got my weight up to it's peak.

I guess the lesson to be learned is that everyone is different.

I overtrain if I go 2 hours a day of lifting, but others will not. Maybe some people have different genetics, and need to push the iron for longer and do get better results that way.

I guess you just need to find what works for you.

Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do.

Holden MacGroin, GW
05-03-2003, 02:44 PM
Bjaarki, how many days a week are you guys training a body part? Are you doing back in that manner more than once a week?

archive_Bjaarki
05-03-2003, 03:57 PM
The Don said:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> B, you're being very closed minded. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <<< Holding his chest and feigning a heart attack >>> Oh! That just stabs me to the quick. How could you SAY such a thing, Don? Me? Meeeeee????? Close-minded?????

JackHammer, we have a 5-way split - once a week for most big muscle groups - all based around the big compound lifts IronGod prefers, though with some isolation lifts in there too. Routines change with every workout. With the sole exception of squats (every week), IronGod never does the same set of lifts two weeks in a row. It looks to me like he has 15 or 20 lifts or lift variations per bodypart that he likes a lot, and he selects 3 or 4 of them for a workout based on what we did last, whether he wants to go light or heavy, what we did yesterday, and whether anyone has an injury or weakness to compensate for. So your body is constantly having to adjust. We do:

Sunday: Quads/calves
Monday: Chest/tris
Tuesday: Off
Wednesday: Back/bis
Thursday: Hams/glutes/calves
Friday: Shoulders/tris
Saturday: Off

I get in some crunches when convenient. Abs is a weakness of this schedule. I'm trying to get IronGod to get bis in there a second day a week, I'd like it on Sunday, but we've not done that yet, it's hard to do bis as an add-on to a Taliban leg day. I'd like to do calves, bis, tris, traps and abs twice a week, everything else once a week.

BTW, IronGod's point (with which E2 concurred) that heavy/long workouts are only possible while on gear is plausible. When I started training with IronGod and FitnessChick, I was using test/tren/eq, and felt I could handle anything. After I d/c'd the tren and EQ in February, it got rougher, and I had to really push to keep up (set for set, not pound for pound) with these superbly conditioned lifters half my age. Remember, I'm 51. The last few weeks, on test only, no tren or EQ, I've been feeling like I just got run over the day before. Maybe because of less gear? The next two months will be interesting, as I'm going to emulate FitnessChick's contest prep for the USA's in July, a pretty severe diet, though I'm back on test/tren/EQ. I think the cortisol-suppressive effect of the tren will be an important addition.

Bjaarki

... Then, do what you have to do.

archive_Mr.Meat
05-03-2003, 04:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by E2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Iron God:
They say less is more, because it is true for NATURAL athletes.

We take steroids so we can train like animals for long periods of time.

2000mg of Anabolics per week, 5500 calories per day. 4 ius of GH , 20 units of insulin. 10 hours of sleep. I could pretty much train all day and still grow.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


LOL!!

That's what I was waiting for!!! Triaining in the magazine and most of the advice given by everyone does not take into consideration tons of steroid useage. With the juice, overtraining is almost nonexistant.

http://anabolicfitness.net/images/e2.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll second this motion...The less is more idea is geared towards natural bodybuilders/weight trainers. And its 100% correct atleast for me. I know that I can only train 4 days a week max. (currently training gear-free) utilizing compund movements where possible.

I spent a good few years training 5days a week, separating my body into little groups, following bullshit musclemag training splits which yielded an end result of prepetual overtraining, till one day a nice AF board member named "Q" set up an abreviated 3days a week routine for me. Which yeilded prepetual progress.

Lesson learned:

Unless you are a genetic freak and/or are chemically enchanced you cannot possibly make continous progress while training 5 days a week 2 hrs each time.

"Cause there is nothing worst then a man on an ether binge"

Corleone
05-03-2003, 04:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bjaarki:

http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <<< Holding his chest and feigning a heart attack >>> Oh! That just stabs me to the quick. How could you SAY such a thing, Don? Me? Meeeeee????? Close-minded?????
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't mean to give you a heart attack! http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I've read your posts since I've joined this board and it just seems to me that you've alway's been a proponent of extreme long lifting sessions. Have you ever tried the alternative?
That is pushing up your intensity higher than it's ever been and shortening your workouts to achieve this constant intensity. I think you might be surprised to how your body responds. But then again maybe your body needs a lot of exercising to achieve gains. I'm not you, so I cannot say for sure.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Sunday: Quads/calves
Monday: Chest/tris
Tuesday: Off
Wednesday: Back/bis
Thursday: Hams/glutes/calves
Friday: Shoulders/tris
Saturday: Off

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That looks ok, but have you ever thought about this. When you work your back before bi's, you've already given your bi's an indirect workout. They are now fatigued, so when you start your bicep workout, you're not going to be able to give 100% to push the maximum weight they are capable. Only by pushing your muscles to the max will they grow to their max potential. Same with Chest/Tri's. I do chest/bi's, delts/tri's, back alone, and legs alone. That's my split, I go for big arms so every once in a while I'll go in and just do a bi/tri workout where I'll superset and try and shock them.

It's a similar theory to why you're only supposed to do abs at the end of your workout. Every exercise you do you're indirectly working out your abs. If you worked out abs before your workout, you would fatigue them and therefore cheating yourself of the proper workout for the muscle group.

I also don't believe in having set off days. Even though I'm a believer in short intense workouts, I let me body tell me when to take a day off. If I feel energized all week, I'll work out all 7 days, if I feel lethargic or tired or weak, I'll take a day off, maybe two. I think this is where the AAS take effect. If I'm on heavy AAS I might not need a day off for two weeks, and I'll continue to make proper gains.

Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do.

South of the border
05-03-2003, 06:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The last few weeks, on test only, no tren or EQ, I've been feeling like I just got run over the day before. Maybe because of less gear? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bjaarki,

These are signs of overtraining. I would bet that you could make more rapid muscle gains if you would train 4 times a week (with the same intensity) limiting your training sessions to 60minutes.

archive_Iron God
05-03-2003, 06:44 PM
The short intense thing is for "pump artists" or natural athletes. I would love hear of 1 IFBB pro who trains less than 90 minutes per day (cardio excluded). Or if they do train less they train 6 to 7 days per week.

archive_Ulter
05-03-2003, 06:49 PM
I don't agree SOTB. I think Bjaarki needs to use the Polish Taliban Training Method to grow at this point. But only because it's so vastly different than anything he's used to. At some point it won't be as effective and he'll likely have to change up again. But for now it's just what he needs.

archive_Ulter
05-03-2003, 06:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Iron God:
The short intense thing is for "pump artists" or natural athletes. I would love hear of 1 IFBB pro who trains less than 90 minutes per day (cardio excluded). Or if they do train less they train 6 to 7 days per week.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know bracia. I've met Mr Nobody and he's not a pump artist (675 squat?), and certainly not natural, 6'5" 315 and still has a discernible waist. I just wish he'd let me post his pic.

There are plenty of IFBB pros who train like dog poo for most the year.

archive_Mr. Nobody
05-03-2003, 07:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ulter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Iron God:
The short intense thing is for "pump artists" or natural athletes. I would love hear of 1 IFBB pro who trains less than 90 minutes per day (cardio excluded). Or if they do train less they train 6 to 7 days per week.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know bracia. I've met Mr Nobody and he's not a pump artist (675 squat?), and certainly not natural, 6'5" 315 and still has a discernible waist. I just wish he'd let me post his pic.

There are plenty of IFBB pros who train like dog poo for most the year.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahem, 6'3 and 303 currently....have to back off the heavy squats too, due to knee problems....gonna do the 20 reppers and leg presses for a while.

I will say it again...When you are getting up there with strength, your body needs more rest and takes longer to approach the max weights....therefore 45 min's are impossible...the actual worksets (the once I count and push myself to the max) have been reduced over the years and I have made more progress because of that. I am also increasing frequency...5 day workout week with a 3 day split....so I almost train my body twice a week.
I feel that you do not have to absolutely kill yourself and be in pain for days to make progress.....less sets...more workouts...helped me progressing steadily

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

archive_Ulter
05-03-2003, 07:20 PM
Ok sorry I didn't know you were cutting so hard as to lose 12 pounds. I am sure you look much leaner at 303.

Monster
05-03-2003, 09:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ulter:
Ok sorry I didn't know you were cutting so hard as to lose 12 pounds. I am sure you look much leaner at 303.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh heh heh...

-------------------------


"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

archive_Iron God
05-03-2003, 10:01 PM
How many days per week does Dorian train? Split sessions?

ALso this POlish Taliban Training as Ulter loves to refer to it. Is just what on the menu for now. HIT, GVT, Power lifting all get incorperated.

But Mr N is right on , once your weights gets to a certain point you need the recovery time to lift the lbs.

I just can't see doing back or legs in under 1 hour. And I have a pretty good tolerance for pain.

Basically it breaks down to time under tension. And what works for the individual

Corleone
05-03-2003, 10:22 PM
He told me he does 4-5 days a week. No split sessions, lots of sleep, lots of food, and obviously a good amount of suppliments.
This is his offseason workouts.

If he's in cutting mode, he'll spend more time in the gym, but the above is how he spends the majority of his time.

His intensity is very high. I'm a competetive athlete so I know about intensity, but his was up a notch to what I was used to. He's a very competetive person, and strong as fuck!

Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do.

Curious George
05-03-2003, 11:21 PM
My opinion on this is it's all relative to bodytype, recovery(job and daily stress levels included in this), strength or bodybuilder type and how long you have been training.

When you are working a labor type job it is hard to be able to train for a long period of time....especially natural without aid of any "Supplements." I am in and out in 1.5 hours at most. I would love to be able to spend longer, but as a lot of people, I don't have the time or recovery ability to do it and I have been training for over 15 years.

A bodybuilder can spend a little longer in the gym due to higher reps and the need for muscle hypertrophy. A large bodybuilder like irongod or mr nobody needs time to get to the weights he is working with and also time to recover between sets.

A powerlifter usually does heavy singles and some accessory or dynamic work with long rests and is still able to get out in an hour or so. He is not working on indivdual muscles so much as his weak points and the production of utilizing muscles to work together. Not much cardio for these folks....oh how I envy them.

I think it's all relative to what your lifestyle can allow and also what you are trying to accomplish and also what your level of experience is. A beginning bodybuilder can get by on doing 40% max their first couple of weeks....wouldn't that be great again?

Take Good Care,

Cg

secure email
curgeo@hushmail.com
cg@cyber-rights.net

archive_Ulter
05-04-2003, 07:42 AM
This might be a good place to explain why I have attached the word Polish to Bjaarki's terms Taliban Training Method. IG is Polish. So are my wife and son and most of the people I associate with off the board. But that's not the whole story.
One of the things I noticed about the Polish who are successful here in the US is the way they approach any tasks set before them. They are the most meticulous, detail oriented, "it has to be done with perfect form", bunch of people you will ever meet in your life. Ula will drive you nuts if you are the kind who wants to "just leave it, it's fine". Her attention to detail and procedure is way beyond anyone else I know. Many of the rest of us would not take the time to get EVERYTHING perfect every time. If she was just wrong once in a while so I would have some leg to stand on, but that's another story. Her Father-in-law, the tradesman, lays wood floors, and it takes 4 days instead of two because you'd think he was laying it for God's judgment of his life's work. Just finish the damn thing so I can walk on it! Ahem, sorry.
So upon hearing from Bjaarki what it's like to train with FC and IG I immediately said, THAT'S POLISH. I truly wish I had the patience and the discipline these people have with everything they do. My life would have been so much better without all the mistakes.

And now you know the rest of the story. Good Day.

Curious George
05-04-2003, 09:42 AM
I'm Polish too as Ulter already knows.

My Grandfather who meant everything to me used to work a swing shift in a steel mill, own and run a bar, take care of his yard and all of the house work and most importantly take care of yours truely. The guy would never sleep. I was a kid and didn't really understand, but looking back, he always had time for me. From playing catch to showing me how to cut wood and box....he was always there. Where did he find the time?

This describes a Polack. He had cancer and only had a couple of months to live. He had just gotten back from his chemotherapy. He DROVE HIMSELF most of the time. As he was pulling into his driveway a man stopped his van and yelled at him. It seems Gpa swung the car a little too wide to get into his driveway and this man was going to tell my Gpa what he thought of him. He called my Gpa out....Gpa picked up a caulking gun and pulled this guy through his window and started beating this 40 year old man (Gpa was 75 at the time). The guy drove off. Gpa called me in Michigan to tell me about it saying it felt good to do that again. A couple of months later he passed.

He was everything to me. He taught me how to be kind but also be a man. Every day I miss that Russian/Polack. Every day.

Take Good Care,

Cg

secure email
curgeo@hushmail.com
cg@cyber-rights.net

archive_Iron God
05-04-2003, 12:59 PM
Ulter,

The attention to detail is almost sickening. Nothing can be clean enough or quality of work good enough. Hell Marine Corp drill instructers are sloppy compared to what I grew with.

You can always tell a Polish persons house by the prestine landscaping and the shrine to Matka Boska in the yard.

W6
05-04-2003, 01:21 PM
I used to train with high volume, that was 20 years ago. Now I can smoke my back or any bodypart except legs in 40 minutes instead of 2 hours and I'm around 260 at 12% bodyfat vs 200 at about the same bodyfat 20 years ago.

There are times after one hour of legs that I literally can't stand up. Not much sense in trying to do more sets at that point and risk injury.

The only thing that holds my weight back now are my joints.

I guess it ends up as what works for you, but I have made far more gains training less than more. Same for a few of the other guys in the gym, natural or otherwise.

One guy that's been on 1000 mg of TE recently cut his dosing back to around 600 because he was just holding too much water. He started to lose some strength and feel overworked, so he cut his training volume back. Makes sense as his recovery was decreased. None-the-less, he's as strong now as he was with higher doses of T and more volume. Food for thought.

W6

therealj
05-04-2003, 10:27 PM
I'd like to disagree but I'm not a big buy. I guess I'm more of a "pump artist" as Iron God likes to call them. I'm not concerned with being a "big guy". I'm 6'1 200lbs , have a 32" waist can see my abs and obliques and my arms are a vascular 17". It's not a physique that's going to win me any trophies (well my girlfriend http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) but it does make me look like a big guy compared to 95% of the population. I have been as high as 225lbs after my second cycle and my training was really no different, the only difference for me then was my diet and the number of d-bol I took daily. I view my workouts as my cardio session as well, I don't do cardio, never have never will, because of that I like to break a serious sweat while weight training and keep the session very brief and intense. I guess the point I'm trying to make is being big is relative, big compared to what?...Would I look big compared to Iron God...no...do I look big compared to practically every other male I come into contact with on a daily basis? absolutely.

05-05-2003, 05:35 AM
You guys are funny...
I'm Polish and an Engineer.. scary huh!

Doggy

Monster
05-05-2003, 06:31 AM
I think the main thing to remember is this:
We're not just talking about big. We're talking about training and gear and food to get you as big as you can possibly get, then a little bigger. And at that point you are at the crossroads where you are attempting to get bigger still, then you take extremes.

People who say they got the size they are without training in that style may be big, they may be REAL big, but they are not to the point yet where this form of training is needed.

If you can still make gains with 35 or 45 minute sessions, then great, be thankful. But there is a point in everyones development (! and this is not neccessarily dictated by YEARS!, you could hit that peak in 5 years, or train for 15 years and not hit it!) where this sort of extreme training is dictated.

Look at the pros, they are a great example of it. It doesnt matter how many years theyve trained for, and it doesnt matter if theyre 240, 260, 280, or 300lbs. It matters that theyve taken their body to the point (and past) where traditional training doesnt work anymore.

It doesnt make you more "hardcore", and it doesnt make you more dedicated, its just a different method of training that is needed at a certain point in a persons development.

The odds are that most people will never train to the point it is required anyway...

But to each their own http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-------------------------


"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

sk
05-05-2003, 12:49 PM
IMO, overtraining is exagurated, but at the same time, more isn't always better.

I still keep changing my routine every 2-3months to figure out what works best for me.

-sk

The Finaplixed and the Furious

Holden MacGroin, GW
05-06-2003, 08:49 AM
Okay big guys, what is your opinion on "progressive poundages"? Do you always try to increase your lifts each workout?

CONTRACTION
05-06-2003, 09:49 AM
JackHammer, I try to go up in poundage each week on my exercises. At a minimum of 5lbs a week. Of course I usually hit a sticking point and can't move further. At that time, the training has to be changed around to break the plateau. Also, I get to a point where my joints can't take the weight even though my muscles can...so I have to hold back.

My old workout partner from a few years back had a philosophy of moving up at least 5lbs a week in bench and 10lbs a week on squat. These days he's benching over 500lb and squatting over 600lb. Focker couldnt even fit in his damn uniform back then...it looked like a bathing suit on him.

Billy_Bathgate
05-07-2003, 01:55 AM
45-60 min tops ever WSBC

BB used to spend up to 2hrs though. Eh...



"Originally posted by Bjaarki:
that there is no such thing as less-than-one-hour workouts if you want to train at an elite level, that the keep-it-brief jazz is a complete fantasy. 90 minutes. Two hours is more like it." maybe for BBing...wouldnt say it for anything else though!

Radical Ice
05-10-2003, 08:40 AM
Familiar with Christine Envall?? She's got to be one of the most well-developed hardcore female bb out there... I found this quote from her:

"I am using an example of what may be required to get into peak condition for a contest, however, if you are already doing weights, cardio, and dieting there is no reason why a similar regime wouldn't be required for a non-competitor to reach the level they want due to the bodies adaption processes."

"You will be surprised (and not in a good way) at how little you may find you need to eat and how much exercise you actually need to do on a daily basis in order to reach the goals you have set, especially if you have hit a sticking point."

"For example, 2 hours (very heavy) weight training daily, 6 days per week PLUS 2-2 1/2 hours cardio daily (in 3-4 blocks) 7 days per week, all while consuming around 1600 (or less) calories daily in 4-5 meals. Add on top of that your daily job and other chores, trying to maintain social contacts and find time to relax and recover. On top of that, remember that this is what you will need to sustain this regime for the rest of your life if you are to maintain that look. Any backing off on either the diet or exercise will result in a softening of the appearance or a reduction in muscle size (hence the need for a bodybuilding 'off-season')."

"The point I am trying to make is that many people underestimate the amount of work and time it does actually take for the majority of people to get into their 'dream' shape, and that it often gets harder rather than easier. Everything is relative and if you're not getting results from any method, it usually means you need to do more work (ie diet harder or more exercise).
Persistence, consistency, dedication, patience....."

Corleone
05-10-2003, 11:49 AM
You think she's a female? http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

http://www.cenvall.com/images/pdfront3.jpg

Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do.

Monster
05-10-2003, 12:12 PM
Wow, He's hot!! http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

-------------------------


"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

global
05-10-2003, 01:45 PM
Is that Corleone? http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

_____________________________

i throw peanuts at old ladies

Corleone
05-10-2003, 03:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by global:
Is that Corleone? http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It might as well be. . .we have similiar upper bodies, though I have a prettier face http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif . . . but I can't compete with her legs.

No offense to the females of this board(though I doubt we have any that look like her). . .but that look to me is extremely disgusting on a woman. For a man it is fine, men are supposed to be big and strong, but a woman is not meant to have huge bulging muscles. She is a result of heavy androgen use that a woman is not designed to have. I think female bodybuilders still need to keep their feminine aspects, look at FC, she has great difinetion, symmetry, and cuts, but still remains attractive. . .some just get overboard.

I am attracted to the curves and shape of a woman, being toned is great, but being bulky isn't. Personally I like the softness of a woman.

Doing her from behind is about as close to homosexuality as anyone could get(no offense to the gay members)

Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do.

global
05-10-2003, 04:10 PM
I agree Corleone, especially about the curves and softness, and without wanting to offend the female members aswell, but she hasn't got any tits whatsoever.

_____________________________

i throw peanuts at old ladies

archive_FitnessChick
05-10-2003, 05:06 PM
Well, thanks for the compliment Corleone! Christine is an extreme case~Facially, no, she isn't the most attractive woman~I don't think she really ever was, androgens or not. I do agree they will significantly change you...That's why my policy is to never touch test, never use androgens(with the exception of 3 weeks of proviron pre-contest )

Just for the record, her calves are HUGE!!! Some of the best in the buisness, man or woman.

archive_Bjaarki
05-10-2003, 07:50 PM
I agree, to a point, with the Don. I like muscularity in both men and women - the physique of a well-developed, beautifully conditioned animal is attractive in both sexes, and FC is a great example of this in a woman - but I believe that in the excess it is not attractive. Many things in life take U-shaped functions like that. That's why balance is so important, so you don't get way out there on the descending limb of the "U".

Funny thing is, though, that the vast majority of women would react to a champion male bodybuilder just as you have reacted to Christine - with revulsion. Maybe you think they wouldn't but ... yeah, they would. Perhaps we don't have to argue about that anymore? Hugely exaggerated overdevelopment is as grotesque in a man as it is in a woman. It sends a signal that does not communicate sexiness, the ability to provide and protect, the capacity for commitment and steadiness, for character, tenderness, reflection, and humor. Muscularity is wonderful, it expresses self-respect and proper balance between the physical and the mental, but grotesque hugeness expresses only what it took to create it - single-minded self-absorption, rapacious consumption, cruel narcissism, and unreflective imbalance. You find yourself with the thought "What the hell were you thinking, man? How could you DO THAT to yourself?" Only masochists - or like-minded clones - want to be around that.

So, if Christine doesn't do what she does to win a guy's admiration, and a man like Ronnie Coleman doesn't do what he does to win the admiration of women ... then, what is extreme bodybuilding all about? I think that, at less extreme levels, it is about attracting potential sex partners, as well as about achieving the self-satisfaction that you can only get when you look in a mirror and like what you see. But I'm beginning to suspect that, beyond some certain level or threshold, the game changes, the values get more deviant, the aspirations less integrated. I'm not sure what that psychology looks like from the inside. I bet it's not pretty, though.

Unlike many of you, I'm a serious gymrat but I'm not a fan of bodybuilding as a sport. I don't read the mags, I don't go to the shows, I don't know the names. My only connection to bodybuilding as a sport is through this board, and through my training partners, IronGod and FitnessChick, both people whom I hold in a place of great respect and affection. But, otherwise, I don't have a stake in this. Yet ... it would be wonderful, in my view, if those who do have a stake in bodybuilding as a sport could review their standards, once in awhile, check their esthetics a bit, you know? I would find more to respect and to emulate. I bet a lot of us would.

We got way off topic, but that's cool, this has been a fun thread. Be well, everyone. Journey safely.

Bjaarki

... Then, do what you have to do.

Holden MacGroin, GW
05-11-2003, 09:35 AM
These thoughts will probably ramble, but....

I myself also do not find myself attracted to her, but then again why should I? She is probably not interested in me being attracted to her, and being married whats business is it of mine really? WHy should a woman have the obligation of turning men on whereever she goes. As a father of 2 girls, I do not want them to think that if some guys somewhere does not feel aroused as they pass through the food court at a mall that they need to pluck, wax, fill with rubber/saline, dye, or have surgery on any part of their body just so this guy may have some visual satisfaction. Why should it be her obligation to do this?

Visual attraction is largely a learned process. In the middle ages it was really fat women. In the '50's it was hourglass large busted women such as Marilyn Monroe and Jane Mansfield. Then in the 60's the pendulum swung drastically the other way as ultra thin models like Twiggy took the stage. More muscularity is in now. Faces aside, as pretty as FC is, her muscularity might have been frowned upon in the 60's - whereas now (n large part because of women like that posted above)it is found attractive by many. In a few years it may be entirely reasonable to find very very very muscular women hot depending on what the media trains us to like. If someone like that was on FRIENDS regularly public perception would be different.

The words to the music from GREASE stuck me one - "....we got to be what we feel". If this is where her heart moves her more power to her. I am married, do not have to have sex with her, so why should I really care what she looks like? Too many people do what they think others feel they SHOULD do. The guy in the post office got a repsonsible job instead of being an artist like he wanted. Another guy is an artist because so many people told him he had talent, but he really wants the satisfaction of saving peoples lives as a doctor. The doctor became a doctor to make his dad happy but really wants to be a musician and simply endures his shifts at the hospital until he can cut loose with his friends in the band on Friday nights. And so on. SO many people choose jobs, marraiges, places to live based on what others expect them to do - we all know its so. If people followed their hearts instead their would be much more satisfaction. If this is what brings her heart felt satisfaction, than good for her.

Monster
05-11-2003, 02:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bjaarki:
the vast majority of women would react to a champion male bodybuilder just as you have reacted to Christine - with revulsion.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very true! I agree 100%
The male "model of masculinity" has changed drastically from what it once was also.

There was a time when a hairy-chested, "macho"... chauvenist (for lack of a better word)was what people equated with manliness. Women would melt at the sight of Burt Reynolds hairy chest.

Fast forward to today, and the new male sex symbols are underfed, androgonous, usually look pretty "hygenically challenged" (greasy uncombed hair, ect.)

So yes, in the end we have to all strive for the look we will be happiest with ourselves, and the mate we attract with that poackage will be the right one because they are attracted to us as we are.

I have a close friend who is national level npc, and she looks like Christine in a lot of ways (shes done less androgens, so she is a tiny bit softer). In getting to know her over the years, she is just like us. We dont even acknowledge that people think we look sick (and fellas, some people DO think that about us0, we do what we do for the love of it. For personal satisfaction and to feel good about who we are.
She (and Christine Im sure) feel the same way about it.

As for the attractivness factor... to each their own! Do I find her attractive? Well, based on that photo of her, No. Could I be attracted to her? Sure I could. I have never limited myself to what is traditionally attractive, not to mention that how someone looks in the final days up to a show is often times night and day from how they usually look.

But I have to admit Id be thrown by the fact that her nose looks like a little bity penis.

(c'mon, Im the only one who noticed?)
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

-------------------------


"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

maxx
05-11-2003, 08:13 PM
Hey FC....that's a man...man. http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Just say no to Halo!

But to each his(or her)own. Who is anyone who injects any kind of shape altering drug to tell anyone else what "level" of crap to take...it is all not real good for you. Each person has their own view of themselves

i know I was just gonna do ONE cycle.....how about you?..

archive_Ulter
05-12-2003, 06:56 AM
All I can say is that I hope she's happier than she looks in that picture.

archive_PDOGGY
05-12-2003, 02:20 PM
Folks, c'mon.

Virilization aside, that female is simply not cute, attractive, or pretty at all - to say the least - so the androgens probably made things exponentially worse.

FC would be cute regardless, IMO, whether posing in a bathing suit, or wearing some traditional crisp Banana Republic gear, ya know?

*************************
One day we can stop trippin over how we sound and really trip on what we say. Then we can stop trippin on what we say and trip on what we mean. After that we can stop trippin altogether.

OUT!

Monster
05-13-2003, 08:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PDOGGY:


FC would be cute regardless, IMO, whether posing in a bathing suit, or wearing some traditional crisp Banana Republic gear, ya know?


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



yeah.
...or a thong...

and a clingy white shirt...

just a hint of persperation making it moist...

almost transparent...

doing overhead presses...

face just a little flushed...

Crap, I better go before IG reads this!


*jumps through the window and starts running down the street*

-------------------------


"Trying is the first step towards failure."
http://www.bodo.com/simpsons/zhomerb.gif "Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

archive_FitnessChick
05-13-2003, 11:56 AM
Alright Folks, Let's keep this thread g-rated! LOL http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You guys are too funny!

Don't worry, No test for me!!

archive_PDOGGY
05-13-2003, 01:05 PM
Hey FC, it's all good.

You are neither an "object" of our "affection" or "reflection" (thank goodness).

You're just a cutie pie who happens to be the bomb-diggity bodybuilder too.

*************************
One day we can stop trippin over how we sound and really trip on what we say. Then we can stop trippin on what we say and trip on what we mean. After that we can stop trippin altogether.

OUT!

EAST_COAST_BODYBUILDER
05-15-2003, 07:51 AM
So for those of you hitting two hour workouts...how many times a week or every how many days do you hit a bodypart. Theres always another side that works for people. For those who know who doggcrapp is he has a post on animals board. And you don;t spend 2 hours in the gym, but you hit the bodyparts more than once a week. He has been over 300lbs so sounds like it works well. Thats what I have been doing for a while and it works well for me. Whats everyones opinion on this?

EAST_COAST_BODYBUILDER

Holden MacGroin, GW
05-15-2003, 09:02 AM
Fonz, I don't think IG will mind if you share a little infection with FC..... I mean affection.

archive_PDOGGY
05-15-2003, 09:50 AM
I do HST training at around 75-80% max. It's kinda like one long superset, but not really.

I seat each x 12-15 reps, 1 minute rest between sets and I'm out in about 65-70 minutes. (I rest about 3 minutes for legs though)

In this order:

Squat
SLDL
(If I don't do these two then why the fuck even show up?)
DB Incline (90% max)
Straight bar Curls
Rope Pressdowns (Whole Stack)
Military (Smith)
T-Bar Rows (90% max)
Squat
SLDL
Smith Decline
DB Curl
Kick Backs
FR/Side/Rear Delts w/DB
PullUps (Wide and Narrow - weighted)
Abs x 3
Calves x 3

*************************
One day we can stop trippin over how we sound and really trip on what we say. Then we can stop trippin on what we say and trip on what we mean. After that we can stop trippin altogether.

OUT!