retaining muscle while cutting

Loophole Genetics · 03-19-2003, 11:21 AM

I've been into bodybuilding for quite some time...on and off; you know how that goes. I've rad everything thats been in front of my face for years regarding diets, gaining mass, cutting, drugs, etc.. I started out at 155-160 lbs when I was 20 or 21. I've been up to 250, but currently weigh about 205-210. This is going t be the 1st time I've really cut up. I want to look my best this summer. In regards to my cycle, I'm doing about a gram of test enanthate/week (QV Test250), and 80mg fina/daily....sometimes every other day or even 2 days if I forget or justwant to save my ass from the injection pain that comes with daily injections. I'm also taking a 1cc shot of B12 every couple of days.
I obviously want to keep fat away, and lose as much fat on my body as possible. I'd like to see some ballpark figures of what you guys think about nutrient intake. I'd like to eat as few calories and carbs (and obviously fats) as possible, without losing or actually, without hurting my chances of gaining new muscle. I want to see my abs, dammit!!! I'd like to hear anyones opinions on this subject.
*I know that this ha been talked about a million times, and if I went through the earch engine I'd find what I'm looking for. BUT, the fact remains the same, and I'm like most people when it comes to this....I need to be led, I need to be told over and over so that I dont forget it. It needs to be pushed and pushed into my head.

bigboy · 03-19-2003, 11:29 AM

When I cut I just add SPRINTING to my workouts 2-3 a week. As for diet, I have never had luck restricting calories. I lose too much muscle. I just train more and eat more clean food. Of course, my BF gets down in the 7's. I do not have the desire to go lower. The hisghest I get is 11%.

Loophole Genetics · 03-19-2003, 11:37 AM

bigboy, if you dont mind telling me, what do you take when you get down to 7%?
Clen, T3, mini-thins, what? You knw, I've tried cutting a bit in the past, I always have problems too, though. Its really hard for me not to eat the amount of food that I'm used to.

archive_Killer · 03-19-2003, 12:06 PM

With fina I often go as low as 10 cals per lb. daily, with 2 cheat meals on the weekend (kind of a carb refeed). Around 350 g protein, 80-130g carbd, and around 20-30 g fat.

Withoug fina I went around 11-12 cals per lb daily, depending on lose and how I felt.

The lowest I have been is around 5.5%

Try NYC, it really works

I am currently holding at around 8.5% and will start go lower in May.

bigboy · 03-19-2003, 01:23 PM

If I am not an AS I will rotate between clen and NYC every 2 weeks. If I am on I used tren and looked best, but I crashed. Therefore I stick to Primo and var and maybe eq. I love the var.

What do you eat? I eat whole foods-chicken, fish, vegetables. I do not eat any refined sugar.

[This message was edited by bigboy on 03-19-2003 at 03:31 PM.]

freshr1 · 03-19-2003, 01:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Loophole Genetics:
bigboy, if you dont mind telling me, what do you take when you get down to 7%?
Clen, T3, mini-thins, what? You knw, I've tried cutting a bit in the past, I always have problems too, though. Its really hard for me not to eat the amount of food that I'm used to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I used to have the same problem. I never managed to last on a cutting diet long until I added something that curbs my appetite. I've found out that diet is key (like everyone's been telling me for years anyway

). The only thing I've found to work for me is bromocriptine. 1/2 tab ed, and I don't want to touch food with a ten foot pole. Nothing. I have no cravings for anything, even my weekly cheat meal is forced down. I have trouble getting 1800 kcals/d in, and I now just think of food as fuel. Oatmeal in the am, then just protein here and there, some oils, maybe a piece of fruit, and of course my postworkout shake w/ carbs. Add to that 30min of am cardio, and I'm seeing excellent results for the first time ever. I'm down to about 230lb now @ 10% and pretty happy at the rate I'm going.

I've got the same goal as you do for this summer! Good luck to both of us

!

--
"Your work is both good and original. Unfortunately the part that is good is not original and the part that is original is not good." - Samuel Johnson

SlateDrake · 03-19-2003, 02:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Loophole Genetics:
bigboy, if you dont mind telling me, what do you take when you get down to 7%?
Clen, T3, mini-thins, what? You knw, I've tried cutting a bit in the past, I always have problems too, though. Its really hard for me not to eat the amount of food that I'm used to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey man,

What's a mini-thin????

Thanks,

Slate

EngiCream · 03-19-2003, 02:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by SlateDrake:

Hey man,

What's a mini-thin????

Thanks,

Slate<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

a brand name for ephedrine hcl pills....although I've seen some that say mini-thin but contain ephedra.

Loophole Genetics · 03-20-2003, 11:03 AM

Just curious here, but if someone taking gear and cutting up keeps his protein intake pretty high (double bodyweight in protein) daily without keeping calories up, would he still get really good results if he was working out the way he should?? Unless this person was wrong, someone yesterday said that tren doesn't work like other gear, because most AS increase protein synthesis, and tren doesn't. If this is true, then the high amout of protein going in will only be used by the gram of test each week. POINT BLANK.....I'd like to keep my calorie intake minimal, and fat too, obviously. As long as I keep my protein intake high, are great results going to occur without the large amount of calories that I'm used to taking in??? I'm thinking about throwing 'slin in there too, mornings and after workouts. What do you guys think about this?

archive_Ulter · 03-20-2003, 11:56 AM

What you're trying to do is what every body builder in the world has always dreamed of. Being able to cut without losing muscle. It won't happen. You can't do it. Add all the protein you want and you still can't do it.
The things you're talking about doing will help minimize the loss but if you're restricting calories YOU WILL LOSE MUSCLE. Give it up. Forget about the Holy Grail of body building, it doesn't exist.

BTW if you DO find that Grail don't forget about your ol friend Ulter.

Fonz · 03-20-2003, 12:38 PM

Non-AAS:

NYC/Yoh + GLA/CLA/r-Ala/Biotin/AlCar

Now that is the natural stack to end all stacks.

People often rely on stimulants for weight loss. i think this is wrong. The nutrient partitioning side of the equation is much more important(Insulin/Glucose/AA's) and needs to be looked at too b/c it can be optimized by a fair degree.

Fonz

No Pain....No Gain.....No Spain

----Barcelona 1992

Cornellius · 03-20-2003, 01:51 PM

In my experience Anadrol is an exelent anti-catabolic while cutting.

______________________________
Yes, I know that my spelling sucks...

RoNiN · 03-20-2003, 02:50 PM

Is it POSSIBLE to keep or even gain muscle while losing bodt fat? YES.

Is it easy? Absolutely not.

I would say over 90% of all people who diet to lose body fat end up losing muscle. How much muscle depends on their training , genetics , supplements and diet.

Now i personally don't think your as doomed as Ulter would lead you to believe ( but when did Ulter and I ever agree anyway ;-) ).

I lost muscle only when i either 1) Didn't eat enough cals during the diet or 2) Overtained , underslept , got sick , etc.

I found i could keep/add muscle while precontest dieting if I did the following:

1) Train as hard and relativly speaking as heavy as i do in the off season.

2) Diet with my cals intake reduced to lose body fat however on specific days raise it when needed to allow complete muscle recovery.

3) Use supplements like multi-vitamins , glutimine , flax seed oil and ECA.

4) Have a baseline of test and include either clen/dbol/winny or anything else to retain muscle to ensure a high anti-cataboli / anabolic state.

It's not perfect and i'm sure there are some days that something will be insufficient which causes a loss in some lean tissue , but overall i do notice a size increase and my body weight not decresing very much and yet the body fat levels do drop ( which means the weight lost from bodyfat is negated by the increase in lean mass ).

Good luck.

Shear_Madness · 03-21-2003, 10:38 AM

Am I missing something here, or are you guys stating that even with a gram of test you will most likely lose muscle while cutting?

Fonz · 03-21-2003, 11:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Shear_Madness:
Am I missing something here, or are you guys stating that even with a gram of test you will most likely lose muscle while cutting?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

W/test?

yes.

Its a shitty anti-catabolic.

Fina + test + winny.

I'd be very suprised if you lost muscle on that.

Fonz

No Pain....No Gain.....No Spain

----Barcelona 1992

Shear_Madness · 03-21-2003, 11:27 AM

you are stating that test is a shitty anti-catabolic, then what would be the purpose of test in a cutting cycle then? Winny helps keep strength up while cutting but it is a weak anabolic. If you were to add test and winny in a cutting cycle, why would it make such a big difference?

archive_Ulter · 03-21-2003, 12:21 PM

Shear, You'll lose muscle on any gear if you don't eat enough. Your body is going to take the calories it needs if you don't put enough in.
Ronin, I still maintain that you won't build muscle with a calorie deficit. But you acknowledged that you have in fact lost muscle when you didn't eat enough. I think that's the same thing and may actually put us in agreement. Nah, can't be.

Fonz · 03-21-2003, 12:39 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Shear_Madness:
you are stating that test is a shitty anti-catabolic, then what would be the purpose of test in a cutting cycle then? Winny helps keep strength up while cutting but it is a weak anabolic. If you were to add test and winny in a cutting cycle, why would it make such a big difference?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've posted this numerous times.

Test raises anabolism almost as much as it does catabolism.
The purpose of test in a cutting cycle is really not THAT necessary more than 500mg/week IMO. Even 200-250mg/week suffices.

Fina/Winstrol/Anavar are the best drugs for cutting. They curb catabolism the most.
Which is the purpose of a dieting AAS drug.

Fonz

No Pain....No Gain.....No Spain

----Barcelona 1992

Shear_Madness · 03-21-2003, 12:45 PM

If you were to add anavar to a test/EQ cycle, would 20mg/day for 3 weeks make a noticeable difference or not?

Fonz · 03-21-2003, 01:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Shear_Madness:
If you were to add anavar to a test/EQ cycle, would 20mg/day for 3 weeks make a noticeable difference or not?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For 3? No.

For 8? yes. if BTG.

Fonz

No Pain....No Gain.....No Spain

----Barcelona 1992

RoNiN · 03-21-2003, 04:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ulter:
Ronin, I still maintain that you won't build muscle with a calorie deficit. But you acknowledged that you have in fact lost muscle when you didn't eat enough. I think that's the same thing and may actually put us in agreement. Nah, can't be.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said you can build muscle with a calorie deficient diet , you can't.... but
that is not what i'm doing now.

What i'm suggesting is to load cals for example every 3rd day causing the calorie surplus. Although were talking about only 2-3 days of the week that you have a cals surplus I personally have discovered that it contributes to muscle retention MUCH better then a cals deficient diet all week long.

##spiderbaby## · 03-21-2003, 04:17 PM

NYC truly does work. I have used almost every OTC fat burner and aside from clen (which I cannot take) with a decent diet it works like david copperfield.

##spiderbaby##

All bleeding eventually stops.

03-19-2003, 01:50 PM	#6 (permalink)
freshr1 Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 282 Rep Power: 5861	<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Loophole Genetics: bigboy, if you dont mind telling me, what do you take when you get down to 7%? Clen, T3, mini-thins, what? You knw, I've tried cutting a bit in the past, I always have problems too, though. Its really hard for me not to eat the amount of food that I'm used to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I used to have the same problem. I never managed to last on a cutting diet long until I added something that curbs my appetite. I've found out that diet is key (like everyone's been telling me for years anyway ). The only thing I've found to work for me is bromocriptine. 1/2 tab ed, and I don't want to touch food with a ten foot pole. Nothing. I have no cravings for anything, even my weekly cheat meal is forced down. I have trouble getting 1800 kcals/d in, and I now just think of food as fuel. Oatmeal in the am, then just protein here and there, some oils, maybe a piece of fruit, and of course my postworkout shake w/ carbs. Add to that 30min of am cardio, and I'm seeing excellent results for the first time ever. I'm down to about 230lb now @ 10% and pretty happy at the rate I'm going. I've got the same goal as you do for this summer! Good luck to both of us ! -- "Your work is both good and original. Unfortunately the part that is good is not original and the part that is original is not good." - Samuel Johnson __________________ -- &quot;Your work is both good and original. Unfortunately the part that is good is not original and the part that is original is not good.&quot; - Samuel Johnson

03-19-2003, 02:07 PM	#7 (permalink)
SlateDrake Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 22 Rep Power: 4673	<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Loophole Genetics: bigboy, if you dont mind telling me, what do you take when you get down to 7%? Clen, T3, mini-thins, what? You knw, I've tried cutting a bit in the past, I always have problems too, though. Its really hard for me not to eat the amount of food that I'm used to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hey man, What's a mini-thin???? Thanks, Slate

03-19-2003, 02:55 PM	#8 (permalink)
EngiCream Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 247 Rep Power: 5728	<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlateDrake: Hey man, What's a mini-thin???? Thanks, Slate<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> a brand name for ephedrine hcl pills....although I've seen some that say mini-thin but contain ephedra.

03-20-2003, 11:56 AM	#10 (permalink)
archive_Ulter Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 15,388 Rep Power: 21906	What you're trying to do is what every body builder in the world has always dreamed of. Being able to cut without losing muscle. It won't happen. You can't do it. Add all the protein you want and you still can't do it. The things you're talking about doing will help minimize the loss but if you're restricting calories YOU WILL LOSE MUSCLE. Give it up. Forget about the Holy Grail of body building, it doesn't exist. BTW if you DO find that Grail don't forget about your ol friend Ulter. __________________

03-20-2003, 02:50 PM	#13 (permalink)
RoNiN Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 144 Rep Power: 5721	Is it POSSIBLE to keep or even gain muscle while losing bodt fat? YES. Is it easy? Absolutely not. I would say over 90% of all people who diet to lose body fat end up losing muscle. How much muscle depends on their training , genetics , supplements and diet. Now i personally don't think your as doomed as Ulter would lead you to believe ( but when did Ulter and I ever agree anyway ;-) ). I lost muscle only when i either 1) Didn't eat enough cals during the diet or 2) Overtained , underslept , got sick , etc. I found i could keep/add muscle while precontest dieting if I did the following: 1) Train as hard and relativly speaking as heavy as i do in the off season. 2) Diet with my cals intake reduced to lose body fat however on specific days raise it when needed to allow complete muscle recovery. 3) Use supplements like multi-vitamins , glutimine , flax seed oil and ECA. 4) Have a baseline of test and include either clen/dbol/winny or anything else to retain muscle to ensure a high anti-cataboli / anabolic state. It's not perfect and i'm sure there are some days that something will be insufficient which causes a loss in some lean tissue , but overall i do notice a size increase and my body weight not decresing very much and yet the body fat levels do drop ( which means the weight lost from bodyfat is negated by the increase in lean mass ). Good luck. __________________ A good bodybuilder can get big , but a great bodybuilder makes it look GOOD!

03-19-2003, 11:29 AM	#2 (permalink)
bigboy Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 1,170 Rep Power: 7125	When I cut I just add SPRINTING to my workouts 2-3 a week. As for diet, I have never had luck restricting calories. I lose too much muscle. I just train more and eat more clean food. Of course, my BF gets down in the 7's. I do not have the desire to go lower. The hisghest I get is 11%.

03-19-2003, 11:37 AM	#3 (permalink)
Loophole Genetics Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 176 Rep Power: 5939	bigboy, if you dont mind telling me, what do you take when you get down to 7%? Clen, T3, mini-thins, what? You knw, I've tried cutting a bit in the past, I always have problems too, though. Its really hard for me not to eat the amount of food that I'm used to.

03-19-2003, 12:06 PM	#4 (permalink)
archive_Killer Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 2,195 Rep Power: 7940	With fina I often go as low as 10 cals per lb. daily, with 2 cheat meals on the weekend (kind of a carb refeed). Around 350 g protein, 80-130g carbd, and around 20-30 g fat. Withoug fina I went around 11-12 cals per lb daily, depending on lose and how I felt. The lowest I have been is around 5.5% Try NYC, it really works I am currently holding at around 8.5% and will start go lower in May.

03-19-2003, 01:23 PM	#5 (permalink)
bigboy Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 1,170 Rep Power: 7125	If I am not an AS I will rotate between clen and NYC every 2 weeks. If I am on I used tren and looked best, but I crashed. Therefore I stick to Primo and var and maybe eq. I love the var. What do you eat? I eat whole foods-chicken, fish, vegetables. I do not eat any refined sugar. [This message was edited by bigboy on 03-19-2003 at 03:31 PM.]

03-20-2003, 11:03 AM	#9 (permalink)
Loophole Genetics Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 176 Rep Power: 5939	Just curious here, but if someone taking gear and cutting up keeps his protein intake pretty high (double bodyweight in protein) daily without keeping calories up, would he still get really good results if he was working out the way he should?? Unless this person was wrong, someone yesterday said that tren doesn't work like other gear, because most AS increase protein synthesis, and tren doesn't. If this is true, then the high amout of protein going in will only be used by the gram of test each week. POINT BLANK.....I'd like to keep my calorie intake minimal, and fat too, obviously. As long as I keep my protein intake high, are great results going to occur without the large amount of calories that I'm used to taking in??? I'm thinking about throwing 'slin in there too, mornings and after workouts. What do you guys think about this?

03-20-2003, 01:51 PM	#12 (permalink)
Cornellius Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 650 Rep Power: 6525	In my experience Anadrol is an exelent anti-catabolic while cutting. ______________________________ Yes, I know that my spelling sucks...

03-21-2003, 10:38 AM	#14 (permalink)
Shear_Madness Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 186 Rep Power: 4431	Am I missing something here, or are you guys stating that even with a gram of test you will most likely lose muscle while cutting?

03-21-2003, 11:09 AM	#15 (permalink)
Fonz Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 1,857 Rep Power: 7624	<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shear_Madness: Am I missing something here, or are you guys stating that even with a gram of test you will most likely lose muscle while cutting?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> W/test? yes. Its a shitty anti-catabolic. Fina + test + winny. I'd be very suprised if you lost muscle on that. Fonz No Pain....No Gain.....No Spain ----Barcelona 1992 __________________ &quot;Great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about facts, and weak minds talk about people&quot; ---- Fonz 6/2002

03-21-2003, 11:27 AM	#16 (permalink)
Shear_Madness Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 186 Rep Power: 4431	you are stating that test is a shitty anti-catabolic, then what would be the purpose of test in a cutting cycle then? Winny helps keep strength up while cutting but it is a weak anabolic. If you were to add test and winny in a cutting cycle, why would it make such a big difference?

03-21-2003, 12:21 PM	#17 (permalink)
archive_Ulter Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 15,388 Rep Power: 21906	Shear, You'll lose muscle on any gear if you don't eat enough. Your body is going to take the calories it needs if you don't put enough in. Ronin, I still maintain that you won't build muscle with a calorie deficit. But you acknowledged that you have in fact lost muscle when you didn't eat enough. I think that's the same thing and may actually put us in agreement. Nah, can't be. __________________

03-21-2003, 12:39 PM	#18 (permalink)
Fonz Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 1,857 Rep Power: 7624	<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shear_Madness: you are stating that test is a shitty anti-catabolic, then what would be the purpose of test in a cutting cycle then? Winny helps keep strength up while cutting but it is a weak anabolic. If you were to add test and winny in a cutting cycle, why would it make such a big difference?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I've posted this numerous times. Test raises anabolism almost as much as it does catabolism. The purpose of test in a cutting cycle is really not THAT necessary more than 500mg/week IMO. Even 200-250mg/week suffices. Fina/Winstrol/Anavar are the best drugs for cutting. They curb catabolism the most. Which is the purpose of a dieting AAS drug. Fonz No Pain....No Gain.....No Spain ----Barcelona 1992 __________________ &quot;Great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about facts, and weak minds talk about people&quot; ---- Fonz 6/2002

03-21-2003, 12:45 PM	#19 (permalink)
Shear_Madness Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 186 Rep Power: 4431	If you were to add anavar to a test/EQ cycle, would 20mg/day for 3 weeks make a noticeable difference or not?

03-21-2003, 01:33 PM	#20 (permalink)
Fonz Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 1,857 Rep Power: 7624	<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shear_Madness: If you were to add anavar to a test/EQ cycle, would 20mg/day for 3 weeks make a noticeable difference or not?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> For 3? No. For 8? yes. if BTG. Fonz No Pain....No Gain.....No Spain ----Barcelona 1992 __________________ &quot;Great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about facts, and weak minds talk about people&quot; ---- Fonz 6/2002

03-21-2003, 04:06 PM	#21 (permalink)
RoNiN Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 144 Rep Power: 5721	<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ulter: Ronin, I still maintain that you won't build muscle with a calorie deficit. But you acknowledged that you have in fact lost muscle when you didn't eat enough. I think that's the same thing and may actually put us in agreement. Nah, can't be.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I never said you can build muscle with a calorie deficient diet , you can't.... but that is not what i'm doing now. What i'm suggesting is to load cals for example every 3rd day causing the calorie surplus. Although were talking about only 2-3 days of the week that you have a cals surplus I personally have discovered that it contributes to muscle retention MUCH better then a cals deficient diet all week long. __________________ A good bodybuilder can get big , but a great bodybuilder makes it look GOOD!

03-21-2003, 04:17 PM	#22 (permalink)
##spiderbaby## Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 260 Rep Power: 5569	NYC truly does work. I have used almost every OTC fat burner and aside from clen (which I cannot take) with a decent diet it works like david copperfield. ##spiderbaby## All bleeding eventually stops. __________________ ##spiderbaby## All bleeding eventually stops.