Quick Question on Post Workout Nutrition????

[Jonny Organon]

We all are very aware of the benefits of post workout carbs. Mainly High glycemic combined with protein. There is a ton of studies that prove this but after researching alot of them I noticed that many call for high glycemic carbs and they use simple carbs like dextrose for examples. I usually have three shakes a day and one is left in my truck for post workout. I also make my shakes of 50 grams whey and 50 grams maltodextrin. I realize that maltodextrin has a fairly high GI rate of over 100. It is a complex carb though...What I am curious to is that do these studies call into play the importance of the simple carb itself or the high Glycemic index rating. Should the maltodextrin's high GI rating be enough to replenish glycogen or should I invest in some dextrose and make my post workout shake 25g malto and 25g dextrose instead of all maltodextrin???

Thanks in advance..

[archive_LuckyDog]

It doesn't really matter which you choose because they both will suffice. Mr. Nobody uses Malto. because he can get it cheap and easy in powerade powder. You're really splitting hairs by choosing one over the other with these two. The optimal solution would be to use a 50/50 mixture of dextrose and maltodextrin but for ease of use/availability/cost factor, go with what you like the best...for what it's worth, I use a 50/50 blend but that's because I get it the cheapest and I tend to overdo things, that's just the way I am. I'm having some problems bringing up old threads right now for a link for you but search for a thread by me with dextrose in the title. It'll have all the info you need. Hope thie helps. Take care.

LuckyDog

Education is a continuous process ending only when ambition comes to a halt.
-Col. R. I. Rees

[hooker]

There was a study done on preworkout nutrition vs. post workout nutrition and preworkout nutrition seemed to have a higher effect on nitrogen retention levels. Just something to think about. I'll look for the study if anyone is really interested.

"Computer games don't affect kids negatively; I mean if Pac-Man affected us
as kids, we'd all be running around darkened rooms, munching magic pills and
listening to repetitive electronic music."
-Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc.
1988

[Jonny Organon]

Thanks for the replys. Question Answered. As far as pre workout nutrition I eat every two hours so I usually have a large intake right before I leave for the gym.

[archive_PDOGGY]

I don't see how you do it.

I had to face the fact that if I don't work out on an empty stomach, more specifically, after I have had my morning bowel movement, my workouts are not nearly as intense.

As an aside, and strangely enough, it helps when on YNC, because for some reason the NorE tends to prompt peristaltic action in me. It did the same thing when I took Adipokinetix long ago and is just another reason why I take Two tabs about 45 minutes before I leave for the gym.

But I digress. I have 6 tablespoons of Tang (when I'm out of creatine) 1 tablespoon of ginger, 66 grams of Penta Pro, my multivitamins and 2 rALA right before I strip and shower.

By the time I get dressed and smellgoody, I'm jacked to the gills.

*************************
One day we can stop trippin over how we sound and really trip on what we say. Then we can stop trippin on what we say and trip on what we mean. After that we can stop trippin altogether.

OUT!

	PureCEE PureCEE delivers increased strength, pump and muscular endurance without abdominal bloating or subcutaneous water retention often found with creatine monohydrate. PureCEE uses the finest and purest Creatine Ethyl Ester HCL.

[Billy_Bathgate]

Smell some ammonia.

[Fonz]

You're actually all incorrect.

DURING your workout is the most important time.

Sipping on a glucose+fructose carb drink during
the workout will GREATLY curb cortisol and therefore protein degradation.

I believe there is an article on Meso about this.
Over 12 weeks, the carb drink people achieved
11.5% better results.

Thats pretty impressive.

I use 0.5g/lb for total carbs.

And max: 30g fructose.

So, using myselfas an example(Say 200lbs)
It would be 100g carbs made up of 70g glucose
and 30g fructose.

The theory behind the fructose, is that it primarily re-fills liver glycogem, so upon finishing your workout, the body breaks the liver glycogen down into glucose which HALTS glucogenesis and therefore catabolism.
The ingested glucose goes straight to the muscles
and for energy btw.

Fonz

No Pain....No Gain.....No Spain

----Barcelona 1992

[Billy_Bathgate]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fonz:
You're actually all incorrect.

DURING your workout is the most important time.

Sipping on a glucose+fructose carb drink during
the workout will GREATLY curb cortisol and therefore protein degradation.

I believe there is an article on Meso about this.
Over 12 weeks, the carb drink people achieved
11.5% better results.

Thats pretty impressive.

I use 0.5g/lb for total carbs.

And max: 30g fructose.

So, using myselfas an example(Say 200lbs)
It would be 100g carbs made up of 70g glucose
and 30g fructose.

The theory behind the fructose, is that it primarily re-fills liver glycogem, so upon finishing your workout, the body breaks the liver glycogen down into glucose which HALTS glucogenesis and therefore catabolism.
The ingested glucose goes straight to the muscles
and for energy btw.

Fonz

No Pain....No Gain.....No Spain

----Barcelona 1992<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That seems high to me. I always thought around the lines of .25g/lb. What actual brands do you use to make your concosion? Poweraid powder, etc...

PS..I wasnt really incorrect either [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[Fonz]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Billy_Bathgate:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fonz:
You're actually all incorrect.

DURING your workout is the most important time.

Sipping on a glucose+fructose carb drink during
the workout will GREATLY curb cortisol and therefore protein degradation.

I believe there is an article on Meso about this.
Over 12 weeks, the carb drink people achieved
11.5% better results.

Thats pretty impressive.

I use 0.5g/lb for total carbs.

And max: 30g fructose.

So, using myselfas an example(Say 200lbs)
It would be 100g carbs made up of 70g glucose
and 30g fructose.

The theory behind the fructose, is that it primarily re-fills liver glycogem, so upon finishing your workout, the body breaks the liver glycogen down into glucose which HALTS glucogenesis and therefore catabolism.
The ingested glucose goes straight to the muscles
and for energy btw.

Fonz

No Pain....No Gain.....No Spain

----Barcelona 1992<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That seems high to me. I always thought around the lines of .25g/lb. What actual brands do you use to make your concosion? Poweraid powder, etc...

PS..I wasnt really incorrect either [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL...didn't mean you. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

I use Vitamin Water for the fructose. Its basically filtered water with a flavour and sweetened with fructose.
500ml has approx. 130 Kcals and 33g Fructose

I just add dextrose to it and 1000ml extra water.
I sometimes add sugra-free Peach Snapple to it too.


Fonz

No Pain....No Gain.....No Spain

----Barcelona 1992

[Billy_Bathgate]

Flavored water...lol Ive tried Propel before and didnt like the taste. It tasted like something that used to be good before it got watered down.


Anyways, where do you get your dextrose, BAC?

[Fonz]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Billy_Bathgate:
Flavored water...lol Ive tried Propel before and didnt like the taste. It tasted like something that used to be good before it got watered down.


Anyways, where do you get your dextrose, BAC?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.

The fructose complements the dextrose quite nicely in terms of sweetness.

Dextrose has no taste. Well.....barely.

Fonz

No Pain....No Gain.....No Spain

----Barcelona 1992

[archive_LuckyDog]

For what it's worth I like to use a during workout shake of one serving Phosphagen HP, with 15 extra grams of dextrose for a 50gram dextrose (Glucose) serving with 10 grams creatine, and some Taurine, etc... Works like a charm. And I'm 215lbs, 6'0" and I don't seem to be adding any fat. BTW Fonz, I wasn't wrong either [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] I follow it by a 75 gram dextrose and malto./10g glutamine/100gram protein shake afterwards. Works like a charm! Get your dextrose/malto at supplementdirect-it's cheap. Take care.

LuckyDog

Education is a continuous process ending only when ambition comes to a halt.
-Col. R. I. Rees

	PureCEE PureCEE delivers increased strength, pump and muscular endurance without abdominal bloating or subcutaneous water retention often found with creatine monohydrate. PureCEE uses the finest and purest Creatine Ethyl Ester HCL.

	Taurine Taurine is an amino acid which is often depleted by stimulant use. Use of taurine will help maintain cellular water levels and prevent cramping associated with dehydration of cellular tissues due to stimulant use

[hooker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fonz:
You're actually all incorrect.

DURING your workout is the most important time.


Fonz

No Pain....No Gain.....No Spain

----Barcelona 1992<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I think I'm the only person who even mentioned the timeframe of the meal's ingestion, and I only compared pre vs. post workout meals. Nobody even came close to framing their answers so as to make them even remotely close to tackling the issue you are now raising. Thus nobody can be "wrong" as of yet, because we are not talking about the issue of optimal time for ingestion of carbs (or anything else, for that matter). This is simply not the issue at hand (though, neither was my answer...which brought up comparing pre and postworkout meals).
My only claim was that the preworkout meal has a greater effect on protein synthesis than the postworkout meal. The original question, which I did not purport to answer, was about carbs in a postworkout shake. LuckyDogs answer was a response to this question, never claiming an optimal time to ingest carbs, merely answering the original question on composistion or proportion of differing types of carbs.
Billy suggests inhaling ammonia, and Pdoggy merely related what works for him concerning preworkout routines.
That being said here is sone stuff to help support my claims concerning pre vs. post workout mutrition:


Optimizing Nutrient Timing
Tom Incledon, MS, RD, LD, LN, CSCS


— When insulin is infused, Protein Synthesis (PS) increased by ~50%.

— An infusion of amino acids (only the essential AAs are necessary) can increase PS by ~150%.

— If an essential AA mixture is infused immediately after exercise, PS increases ~200%.

— The combination of resistance exercise, 6 grams of essential amino acids, and 35 grams of sucrose increases PS by ~ 400%!

• Ingesting small amounts of EAAs and carbs prior [bold type added by me] to resistance exercise appears to maximize muscle-protein anabolism as compared to postworkout ingestion.

• To minimize muscle damage and delayed onset muscle soreness, ingest BCAAs (12 grams/day), vitamin E (1200 IU/day), HMB (3 grams/day), and L-carnitine (3 grams/day).

• The Incledon Shake Formula:
Pre-exercise nutrition (ingested 30 minutes prior to training):

— Carbohydrate drink (30-50 g)

— 2-5 grams BCAAs

— 2-5 grams glutamine

— 400 mg phosphatidylserine

— 2 grams acetyl-L-carnitine

• The Incledon Shake formula for nutrition during exercise (Just for you, Fonz!):

— Carbohydrate drink (45-60 g/hr)

— 2-5 grams BCAAs

— 2-5 grams glutamine

• The Incledon Shake formula for post-exercise nutrition:

— 30-40 grams whey protein

— 90-120 grams carbs

— 5 grams creatine

Though Incledon maintains that preworkout ingestion of carbs and EAA results in greater PS than either during or post-workout ingestion, he maintains that all 3 are necessary for optimal results.

(Excerpts from a lecture given at the 25th Annual NSCA Natilnal Conference, 2002)

"Computer games don't affect kids negatively; I mean if Pac-Man affected us
as kids, we'd all be running around darkened rooms, munching magic pills and
listening to repetitive electronic music."
-Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc.
1988

	PureCEE PureCEE delivers increased strength, pump and muscular endurance without abdominal bloating or subcutaneous water retention often found with creatine monohydrate. PureCEE uses the finest and purest Creatine Ethyl Ester HCL.

[archive_PDOGGY]

Interesting hooker.

I've been experimenting with variations in Animalbolics, particularly trying to figure out, as Astral Fitness said once, how to flood the blood pool with Amino Acids and carb the liver and muscles, without having to eat too much for the rest of the day.

After reading this, I may consider trying something pre-workout, akin to your examples. (Albeit reluctantly.) I just prefer few, but highly dense and nutritious meals. I guess its a stage I'm going through. I just don't like food all that much right now. If I can get away with this Incledon approach and not have to eat anything after lunch, then I'll be happy.

*************************
One day we can stop trippin over how we sound and really trip on what we say. Then we can stop trippin on what we say and trip on what we mean. After that we can stop trippin altogether.

OUT!

[Fonz]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hooker:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fonz:
You're actually all incorrect.

DURING your workout is the most important time.


Fonz

No Pain....No Gain.....No Spain

----Barcelona 1992<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"We're not worthy"
"We're not worthy"
"We're not worthy"
"We're not worthy"
"We're not worthy"
"We're not worthy"
"We're not worthy"

LOL

Just kidding. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Good Post Hooker.

Fonz



Actually, I think I'm the only person who even mentioned the timeframe of the meal's ingestion, and I only compared pre vs. post workout meals. Nobody even came close to framing their answers so as to make them even remotely close to tackling the issue you are now raising. Thus nobody can be "wrong" as of yet, because we are not talking about the issue of optimal time for ingestion of carbs (or anything else, for that matter). This is simply not the issue at hand (though, neither was my answer...which brought up comparing pre and postworkout meals).
My only claim was that the preworkout meal has a greater effect on protein synthesis than the postworkout meal. The original question, which I did not purport to answer, was about carbs in a postworkout shake. LuckyDogs answer was a response to this question, never claiming an optimal time to ingest carbs, merely answering the original question on composistion or proportion of differing types of carbs.
Billy suggests inhaling ammonia, and Pdoggy merely related what works for him concerning preworkout routines.
That being said here is sone stuff to help support my claims concerning pre vs. post workout mutrition:


Optimizing Nutrient Timing
Tom Incledon, MS, RD, LD, LN, CSCS


— When insulin is infused, Protein Synthesis (PS) increased by ~50%.

— An infusion of amino acids (only the essential AAs are necessary) can increase PS by ~150%.

— If an essential AA mixture is infused immediately after exercise, PS increases ~200%.

— The combination of resistance exercise, 6 grams of essential amino acids, and 35 grams of sucrose increases PS by ~ 400%!

• Ingesting small amounts of EAAs and carbs _prior_ [bold type added by me] to resistance exercise appears to maximize muscle-protein anabolism as compared to postworkout ingestion.

• To minimize muscle damage and delayed onset muscle soreness, ingest BCAAs (12 grams/day), vitamin E (1200 IU/day), HMB (3 grams/day), and L-carnitine (3 grams/day).

• The Incledon Shake Formula:
Pre-exercise nutrition (ingested 30 minutes prior to training):

— Carbohydrate drink (30-50 g)

— 2-5 grams BCAAs

— 2-5 grams glutamine

— 400 mg phosphatidylserine

— 2 grams acetyl-L-carnitine

• The Incledon Shake formula for nutrition during exercise (Just for you, Fonz!):

— Carbohydrate drink (45-60 g/hr)

— 2-5 grams BCAAs

— 2-5 grams glutamine

• The Incledon Shake formula for post-exercise nutrition:

— 30-40 grams whey protein

— 90-120 grams carbs

— 5 grams creatine

Though Incledon maintains that preworkout ingestion of carbs and EAA results in greater PS than either during or post-workout ingestion, he maintains that all 3 are necessary for _optimal_ results.

(Excerpts from a lecture given at the 25th Annual NSCA Natilnal Conference, 2002)

"Computer games don't affect kids negatively; I mean if Pac-Man affected us
as kids, we'd all be running around darkened rooms, munching magic pills and
listening to repetitive electronic music."
-Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc.
1988
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No Pain....No Gain.....No Spain

----Barcelona 1992

	PureCEE PureCEE delivers increased strength, pump and muscular endurance without abdominal bloating or subcutaneous water retention often found with creatine monohydrate. PureCEE uses the finest and purest Creatine Ethyl Ester HCL.

[Trevdog]

Am I the only one that noticed that hooker just out-Fonzed the Fonz?

Let's take this discussion of a drink to be consumed during the workout a bit farther. I am presuming that Fonz's argument assumes that bulking is the primary goal. For example, if I am trying to cut and I am following my lifting session with cardio because I want to be carb depleted to some extent when I do the cardio, wouldn't drinking carbs during the workout defeat the purpose?