Flirting - Page 3

The Thing · 04-09-2005, 01:00 PM

Excellent post Mr. N! You articulated just what I had been thinking about this subject. That is the difference between true and lasting love and a momentary infatuation.

Funny...that a post started to lighten the mood on the board turns into such a deep study of love vs. a momentary trist.

The Thing

Wood · 04-09-2005, 11:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mr. Nobody:
Young couples don't realize that the fires of desire will not last, the honeymoon of their relationship lasts not long, but is replaced. It gets replaced with a steady flame of content, a flickering fire of companianship with a tremoundous feeling of lasting love. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One thing that frustrates me is that I frequently hear a person in a relationship say "they changed". I hear of divorced couples complain that their partner changed. Right now I have a new friend who is middle aged, she is doing Martial arts, eating vegetarian and doing Yoga and her husband complains that she is changing.

It frustrates me because how could they not expect them to change. 10, 20, 30 years is a long time. In all the course of learning and experiencing - how could a person not change.

Change is not bad. It keeps relationships from growing stale.

archive_Bjaarki · 04-10-2005, 11:54 AM

That depends, Wood.

One of the constant tensions between my wife and I is my love for change, and her dread of it.

My wife comes from a religious background in which sex roles, leisure practices, religious observance, day-to-day dress, nearly everything about a person, has been prescribed for hundreds, even thousands, of years. My wife rebelled against that kind of thing, one of the reasons she married me, but these ancient lessons from childhood run deep, and I know my wife is terrified and deeply distrustful of change.

Short story here: About two years ago, we were at the wedding of her best friend, down in DC. Her friend comes from the same tradition-bound religious community, and a bunch of my wife's friends' extended family came down for the wedding from New York. I noticed something striking about the men. You could not tell them apart. Each one looked identical. Black suit. White shirt but no tie. Black shoes. Broad-brimmed black hat. It was like a uniform. Take a 15yo boy, a 40yo man, and an 80yo grandfather, turn them away from you, and you would not be able to tell the difference. And I was thinking to myself "This 15yo kid, when he is 40, is going to look exactly like that 40yo man does now, which is no different from how the 15yo kid looks right now. In fact, when he is 80, that 15yo kid is going to look exactly like that 80yo man does now. And what's worse, this 15yo kid looks exactly like any 15yo, or 40yo, or 80yo, looked 100, maybe 200 years ago! They look exactly alike, across generations and across time."

I couldn't get over that, and how different that world is from me.

I've described to you all my own early history - my father's alcoholism, his suicide when I was 18, my initial poverty, my mother's death from cancer a few years later. I had to invent myself. And then, when I was in my mid 40's and didn't like the way my body and soul were shaping up, I had to reinvent myself. So I've invented myself twice.

But my wife's people - they've taken everything as just given to them, prescribed to them, questioning, and inventing anew, nothing. They haven't even invented themselves ONCE, much less twice, like I have. That is a huge source of tension and mistrust between my wife and I.

I know I'm on a journey, but I don't know where it will take me. I merely trust to a benevolent providence to take me along in friendly-wise, and to bear me safely home. My wife fears that and distrusts it, because of her own cultural background that abhors what I think is the most God-like of human capacities, namely the capacity for self-invention. As my signature line, a quote from the stoic Roman philosopher, Epictetus, says: "First, say to yourself what you would become. Then, do what you have to do." My wife could never identify with that.

No other point to make here, than that. Just a snapshot from a 24-year marriage.

Bjaarki

First, say to yourself what you would become.
Then, do what you have to do.

Monster · 04-11-2005, 06:58 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Wood:

It frustrates me because how could they not expect them to change. 10, 20, 30 years is a long time. In all the course of learning and experiencing - how could a person not change.

Change is not bad. It keeps relationships from growing stale.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, I would be more bothered if a person DIDNT ever change... As long as a couple supports each other, change can reinvigorate their relationship, or keep it from ever becoming stale.

-------------------------

<-- Click Here. BECAUSE I SAID SO!

"Whatever a man, a woman, another woman with a penis and a midget do to a donkey is their own business!"

Stud Diesel · 04-12-2005, 01:30 PM

I know I’m slow and just saw this.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bjaarki:
I think Stud Diesel has it about right. Flirting between men and women – good-natured, salacious commentary and occasional physical contact hinting at a desire for more intimate relationship – is nothing more than one of the ways in which boys and girls above a certain age play with one another and tell one another they’re pretty... (snip)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well thank you, but since you are a much better wordsmith, I believe you expressed my point in a much more eloquent manner.

archive_Mr. Nobody · 04-12-2005, 03:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Now I admit, I still have questions and musings of my own <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since it is your turn PQ, let us hear it.

BTW, I never flirted with you, I only flirted with your nurses outfit

__________________________________________________ __________________________________
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
Benjamin Franklin

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

Monster · 04-12-2005, 04:11 PM

...and I only flirted with her for those three days that PA didnt post. I thought he may have finaly realized she was too good for him and packed his stuff, so I thought I would do the right thing and "look after her".

But then he posted again and said he had just been busy...

*sigh*

-------------------------

<-- Click Here. BECAUSE I SAID SO!

"Whatever a man, a woman, another woman with a penis and a midget do to a donkey is their own business!"

Wood · 04-12-2005, 09:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bjaarki:
But my wife's people - they've taken everything as just given to them, prescribed to them, questioning, and inventing anew, nothing. _.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It sort of sounds like all this is set in stone by God and is not subject to change. The ancient Jewish new year use to be in Autumn - like around August Sept. Then after Moses lead the Jews out of Egypt the new year changed to the month of Nissan (March to April). I guess even what God sets in stone is subject to change

Its only through change that we can stay unchanged - or rather its through change that the important things stay the same. If we want a constant body temperature (which is important) we have to change our clothes to suit our environment - changing for winter in Alaska or summer in Mexico. To keep the important things the same we have to be willing to change the unimportant things. to keep the substantial constant we have to change the insubstantial.

Wood · 04-12-2005, 09:19 PM

Its funny, right now I am in a school/work situation that has heavy flirting. Everyone flirts. A woman (head honcho) runs the show for me right now and I have another female working/studying with me. The head honcho flirts with everyone - even the out in the open gay guys - and they flirt back with her. She grades people on their flirting abilities, yesterday she flirted with this gay guy and he flirted back and her comment was "I like him he flirts really good".

She had not eaten breakfast and I had a candy bar in my front pocket. I told her and started to reach for it and she said something like "Yeah baby, you hungry? I got something for you right down here (mimicking reaching into her pants like I was at that moment - but more to the centerline like she is going to whup out a thing)" It was funny.

Her husband often works in the office. Its so out in the open that I am sure nobody takes it very seriously. She is everybodies favorite - we see dozens of people each day (co workers, clients etc) and everyone loves this lady. Everyone hugs her, teases with her, has gifts for her - she is extremely social and well-liked. She flirts with everyone.

Wood · 05-01-2005, 10:18 AM

Alot of this thread seems to be devoted to what we get out of flirting. But what about what we give?

Sort of "render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars" and "do unto others...".

I mean if you can tell someone works hard at their physique, like you do - does it hurt to show appreciation. It does not have to lead to something "more"

Funny story - the other day I was sending some money via western union for some, furniture or something. This big guy who works out at the same gym I do walked up and got a form to send money. I thought it was funny that he was ordering furniture or something too.

Anyway the lady behind the counter was mid thirties or something. The age where many of them really start to feel like they are no longer young anymore. But she had a great physique. Sure she had some fairly large breasts, tiny waist, but she had some really
good muscle tone. I could not help but stare a little bit. Her shirt was a bit sheer and a bit tight, and you could see some decent deltoid defination - although her delts were not real big - she obviously had good tone. I don't think she was trying to show her physique off - she had on this blue jean material apron covering up most of her front,white button up shirt and blue jeans. But as she moved you could still see she was pretty lean and muscular.

At the very end when she handed me my paperwork and I was getting ready to leave I told her she had "one of the most impressive physiques I had seen in a long time". I was not leering at her and I don't think I came across as creepy. There were other people waiting in line, so I was not trying to turn it into something 'more". I hardly ever go to this place, so do not expect to see her again. I just simply told her that. She smiled very big and said thank you. I turned and walked away - making room for the big guy to go send money

I had no intentions but to let her know she was looking good. Far better than most teenage girls. I did not say "impressive rack" "hot body" - I said she had one of the most impressive physiques I had seen in a long time.

I would appreciate it if someone told me that I had an impressive physique. If they stood there leering at me, or I was at work and they tried to strike up a conversation or something I would probably feel uncomfortable, but if it was just in passing I would highly appreciate it.

Flirting is one way of affirming to another that they look good. You do not have to get or expect anything in return. Especially those who probably may not hear it much - women who are not into clubbing and getting it from guys trying to get something in return, middle aged wives etc. If someone said that to my wife, in a non-creepy non-threatening type of way to my wife I would be glad - I don't say it enough.

Is this wrong? Is it just giving credit where credit is due? Is it really flirting?

archive_Mr. Nobody · 05-01-2005, 10:32 AM

Nah, its not flirting. Flirting involves exchange. I'd consider it flirting if she'd reply and you two had struck up a teasing conversation. But paying complements where they are due, is what older, more mature people do without harm nor ulterior intent

__________________________________________________ __________________________________
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
Benjamin Franklin

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

Wood · 05-01-2005, 05:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mr. Nobody:
older, more mature people do without harm nor ulterior intent

._<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uhm....either thank you or f*&% you. I am not sure which.

PQ · 05-01-2005, 05:34 PM

LMAO! I love this thread...

blu · 05-02-2005, 01:09 PM

This is good stuff...from the pure fun of flirting, to the what it will cost to reinvent a long term marriage. All the hard work and sacrifice to get there is well worth the cost of admission.

Wood- that was good stuff. It is a big risk to be that transparent about what went on. Interesting that the temptation came right at the time you were wounded. It shows your ultimate integrity, no matter all the other apparently selfish things we do in life (spending wife-dating money on AAS). But, the last time I checked my wife sure appreciates the body I have when we do go out on a date.

I am also with those that expect their spouse to stay the same. Thank God I didn't stay the same!!! I would have been divorced if I would have stayed the same. My youthful perceptions of how the world ran was a bit askew. How can life be a journey if we stay the same?

As stated in some form above, flirting is often no more that a long stare into someone's eyes, where you both realize: "At another time, in different circumstances..." That is good to have now and again!

archive_Bjaarki · 05-02-2005, 02:14 PM

I agree with Mr. N. What you describe, Wood, is not flirting. It's being very sweet (and pretty brave, in some circumstances). It's showing generosity. I think you're right, I wish more people did that kind of thing. It really makes your day when someone says you look good, doesn't it? I'll bet you that woman has been thinking about your words ever since. What a kind and brave thing you did, sir.

It's hard to know when to do it, when it won't be taken wrong, but I, too, search for ways to let someone who is pleasing to the eye know that they are, especially older women who probably don't hear it as much as younger lookers.

Awhile ago, I was training near a gal I run across now and then, the mother of one of my son's baseball teammates, and a very distant acquaintance of mine. Maybe 48, 49-years-old, but she looks real good, with a body like a girl. She trains hard, like a warrior, and has been doing so for years, now. I like to reward that. So, on impulse, and at some risk (since she knows my wife), I told her "You really look good, Sharon. Your hard work really shows. You don't look like a woman. You look like a chick." You should have seen her eyes light up. I made her day, and she made mine, just from the sense of pleasure and appreciation I'd given her.

Let's watch this thread a little longer, see if there is any more discussion. If not, I nominate it for the Hall of Fame. I think this is one of the most interesting give-and-takes we've had on the board in a long time.

Bjaarki

First, say to yourself what you would become.
Then, do what you have to do.

Wood · 05-06-2005, 11:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Decaman:
Good post wood. Your a better man than me . I would have had her ass up right after she agreed to go out with me lol!

http://www.anabolicfitness.com/dman/dman.jpg

Deal with reality
or
Reality will deal with you<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In all honesty the fear of rejection probably held me back some too.

Wood · 05-06-2005, 11:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bjaarki:
Wood, and I (I can't speak for Mr. N, nor even for Wood, who is doing a damned good job of speaking for himself here), with a much much longer history with our mates - a history including significant wounds (as the letters he discovered, in Wood's case; the conditionality of my wife's love for me, in my case) - see things with a different perspective. Less absolute. More forgiving of ourselves. And, perhaps, with more of a sense of the final, essential loneliness to which we descend ... eventually to death, since we all die alone.

The only answer to that essential loneliness is love. Wherever it may be found. Not necessarily sex - .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great to re-read.

Several things are infinite and brief at the same time.

Pain is one. Love is another. Time seems to feeze into a moment that lasts forever and is infinite, yet is gone in a blink of an eye. It is as though the moment stands still, fills all space.

Intense physical pain can be all consuming. As can intense emotional pain.

But intense love does the same.

I can remember right before I got married I had a situation in which I had to make a choice. I had met this one girl as a friend. The only one to give my wife any run for her money. In retrospect the thing that really attracted me to her was how attracted to me she seemed to be - also in retrospect it may have been more of a game to her than anything, she may have just wanted to see if she could beat out my wife. Not entirely but probably partly.

This girl and I saw alot of each other, always more in a friendly way. One night we happened to meet out dancing. She asked me to dance. Soon it was a slow dance. We awkwardly danced with great distance between us, but soon she melted into my arms, right up against me and her body seemed to fit against mine like two hands folded. Maybe it was because I had not been dating for about a year while waiting for my wife, but this one slow dance was very emotionally moving as she laid her head on my chest. It was only a slow dance but it was a moment in which everything else faded away, and for a moment in the entire universe it was just us two.

Soon thereafter she sent me this letter, which seems strange now almost 20 years later, in which she told me how I was the perfect guy for her etc etc etc. We had never made out or anything, although we had spent alot of time together. A few months later she led me into a wrestling match and a kiss - and I had a decision since this was an open door that was quite appealing. I find it funny that she would send me such a letter considering we had never really dated, made out etc prior to her sending her letter - I have had similar things happen before - I may have to post these under the stalker post - except that in this case I was also strongly attracted to her.

Of course I ended up deciding to marry my wife.

perhaps 9 years after we married, my wife and I visited a friend in another state. in another one of life's odd twists, this girl was working for these friends of ours - as sort of a day nanny. When I found out she was going to be there I could not believe it. I got really nervous prior to seeing her. My wife got depressed - since my wife had known about her.

When I met her, she still looked beautiful to me. But I felt no attraction. It was great to talk to her. Life had given her, her share of ups and downs. She had married a great guy she was in love with. He was a country and western singer. They had a son and while she was pregnant her husband had an affair with one of the many groupies that attended his concerts. It was quite painful. Of course they eventually divorced. I expressed to her how much she meant to me a decade previously - this made her grin and she felt flattered - again probably soemthig she had not felt for ages since her cheating husband had dumped on her. It was great to see her, express the feelings I had for her previously, give a sense of closure to both of us, and then move on. I have not seen her since - that was about 7 years ago.

Pain - having someone cheat on you. Physical pain. Emotional pain. Lasts forever in many ways.

Love is the only antidote to deep pain. There is something eternal about deep pain and deep love. There is some sort of investment in both. 10 years after the fact, a brief reflection on either a painful or loving event still evokes a response. They are like bank accounts of emotion we can dip into or that come to collect a fee.

I can still remember, her pressed against me like another shirt, her head on my chest like she belonged there, both of us wrapped in the darkness of the dance floor, the music melting away the world around us. I know we both felt it. There was a connection that engrained a permenant memory in me - more than a memory, a part of me relives it,.... lives it for the first time, when I think about it.

The thought of it rubs away equally intense memories of pain that I have had. Of course I think there is a God, - only something ultimately good and something ultimately intelligent could make such a delicate balance in all things in life, including our emotions. While the clockwork nature of the rising and setting of the sun, the change of the seasons, the pollenation of fig trees by Mediterranean wasps is an amazing dance of programmed intelligence - our emotional universe is much more real than any physical phenomenon in the world we can see and touch.

Flirting breaks the isolation, the loneliness that is part and parcel of human experience. We can go through life, horribly alone - feeling horribly isolated. Feeling the frustration of being remarkably similar to everyone else, yet feeling remarkably different. Feeling the anguish of wanting to bond, wanting to reach out - but lacking opportunity and ability to make any real connections.

We can fuck our brains out. Party until the sun rises again. Spend hours in a social situation - and not make as meaningful of a moment as one dance, one flirty look, one well written thought creates.

Flirting is an opportunity to feel a connection without the mounds of expectation that come with marraige. Marraige provides companionship, understanding, a balm of acceptance.

As great as marraige is, the fine print, the unexpected baggage that can come along, the mileage and wear and tear that one can never foresee - can suffocate, inprison, and weigh down. Flirting is an opportunity to receive some balm without all the burden. It is a true free lunch. It is receiving a $25 dollar tube of medicine, for only $2 plus a gift certificate. It can provide the extra sugar that is forgotten while we are fullfilling our responsibilities of a real relationship.

Just make sure there is no bill left to be paid on the flirting, no unseen tab that is expected to be paid at a later date.

[This message was edited by Wood on 05-07-05 at 02:08 AM.]

archive_LuckyDog · 05-07-2005, 06:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Flirting is an opportunity to feel a connection without the mounds of expectation that come with marraige. Marraige provides companionship, understanding, a balm of acceptance.

As great as marraige is, the fine print, the unexpected baggage that can come along, the mileage and wear and tear that one can never foresee - can suffocate, inprison, and weigh down. Flirting is an opportunity to receive some balm without all the burden. It is a true free lunch. It is receiving a $25 dollar tube of medicine, for only $2 plus a gift certificate. It can provide the extra sugar that is forgotten while we are fullfilling our responsibilities of a real relationship.

Just make sure there is no bill left to be paid on the flirting, no unseen tab that is expected to be paid at a later date.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Wood....You just completely talked me out of EVER getting married... So where's my free lunch again??

LD

"Only average athletes, those that are far from excellent prepare with average methods. A Champion is not average, but exceptional." ~Vladimir Zatsiorsky

archive_Bjaarki · 05-07-2005, 06:13 AM

God damn!

That is one of the most moving, insightful, and emotionally intricate things I have ever read on this board, Wood.

You are growing spiritually by leaps and bounds. Your complexity is unfolding, your pain breaking through sometimes, in a matrix of deep peace.

It is a great joy to see.

Bjaarki

archive_Mr. Nobody · 05-07-2005, 08:19 AM

Wood, that was very beautiful. I know exactly what you mean. I know precisely how flirting can ignite a renewed flash of this brilliant, phosphoresce fire of desire. What my question has been all along, is at what point should you be concerned? Feeling that way for a prolonged time, even if chastely, surely would create an emotional distance to your sworn partnership, that covenant that you entered when you made your commitment.

I have experienced such a moment, brief in time, but eternal in its aftermath, a stare which lasted forever, a stare in which I glimpsed the naked, unprotected soul of a fellow human being, a split second, that has been branded into my memory until I die. A second in which all possibilities were laid bare in front of me, like quantum mechanics, potentials of different futures undetermined, unfulfilled. I did not give in, I did not let this moment derail and redirect my life. I willed my way back to what I know is right for me. It was the toughest fight I had ever experienced. It stripped my 300 lb body of armored hardened steel, my perceived invulnerability to all that is tempting and turned me into a defenseless child, running, crying for advise. I resisted with all my strength and I live with this memory now. It has faded in intensity of course, joined with new recollections of my existence. I made my choice and it was the right choice, but I fought the battle of my life, quietly, without any help (except one person who will read this and should know that I thank from the bottom of my heart). I moved on and retain this moment as a sweet memory, a memory, as said afore, of an undetermined incomplete possibility. I have battled temptation and grown stronger in the process, wiser, richer in experience, prepared for my moment of death when it is time to relive my life.

So, knowing the repercussions of prolonged, runaway flirting, wi

04-09-2005, 11:40 PM	#52 (permalink)
Wood Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 634 Rep Power: 4083	<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Nobody: Young couples don't realize that the fires of desire will not last, the honeymoon of their relationship lasts not long, but is replaced. It gets replaced with a steady flame of content, a flickering fire of companianship with a tremoundous feeling of lasting love. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> One thing that frustrates me is that I frequently hear a person in a relationship say "they changed". I hear of divorced couples complain that their partner changed. Right now I have a new friend who is middle aged, she is doing Martial arts, eating vegetarian and doing Yoga and her husband complains that she is changing. It frustrates me because how could they not expect them to change. 10, 20, 30 years is a long time. In all the course of learning and experiencing - how could a person not change. Change is not bad. It keeps relationships from growing stale.

04-10-2005, 11:54 AM	#53 (permalink)
archive_Bjaarki Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 3,673 Rep Power: 9544	That depends, Wood. One of the constant tensions between my wife and I is my love for change, and her dread of it. My wife comes from a religious background in which sex roles, leisure practices, religious observance, day-to-day dress, nearly everything about a person, has been prescribed for hundreds, even thousands, of years. My wife rebelled against that kind of thing, one of the reasons she married me, but these ancient lessons from childhood run deep, and I know my wife is terrified and deeply distrustful of change. Short story here: About two years ago, we were at the wedding of her best friend, down in DC. Her friend comes from the same tradition-bound religious community, and a bunch of my wife's friends' extended family came down for the wedding from New York. I noticed something striking about the men. You could not tell them apart. Each one looked identical. Black suit. White shirt but no tie. Black shoes. Broad-brimmed black hat. It was like a uniform. Take a 15yo boy, a 40yo man, and an 80yo grandfather, turn them away from you, and you would not be able to tell the difference. And I was thinking to myself "This 15yo kid, when he is 40, is going to look exactly like that 40yo man does now, which is no different from how the 15yo kid looks right now. In fact, when he is 80, that 15yo kid is going to look exactly like that 80yo man does now. And what's worse, this 15yo kid looks exactly like any 15yo, or 40yo, or 80yo, looked 100, maybe 200 years ago! They look exactly alike, across generations and across time." I couldn't get over that, and how different that world is from me. I've described to you all my own early history - my father's alcoholism, his suicide when I was 18, my initial poverty, my mother's death from cancer a few years later. I had to invent myself. And then, when I was in my mid 40's and didn't like the way my body and soul were shaping up, I had to reinvent myself. So I've invented myself twice. But my wife's people - they've taken everything as just given to them, prescribed to them, questioning, and inventing anew, nothing. They haven't even invented themselves ONCE, much less twice, like I have. That is a huge source of tension and mistrust between my wife and I. I know I'm on a journey, but I don't know where it will take me. I merely trust to a benevolent providence to take me along in friendly-wise, and to bear me safely home. My wife fears that and distrusts it, because of her own cultural background that abhors what I think is the most God-like of human capacities, namely the capacity for self-invention. As my signature line, a quote from the stoic Roman philosopher, Epictetus, says: "First, say to yourself what you would become. Then, do what you have to do." My wife could never identify with that. No other point to make here, than that. Just a snapshot from a 24-year marriage. Bjaarki First, say to yourself what you would become. Then, do what you have to do. __________________ First, say to yourself what you would become. Then, do what you have to do.

04-11-2005, 06:58 PM	#54 (permalink)
Monster Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 5,637 Rep Power: 11827	<BLOCKQUOTE class="-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wood: It frustrates me because how could they not expect them to change. 10, 20, 30 years is a long time. In all the course of learning and experiencing - how could a person not change. Change is not bad. It keeps relationships from growing stale.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree, I would be more bothered if a person DIDNT ever change... As long as a couple supports each other, change can reinvigorate their relationship, or keep it from ever becoming stale. ------------------------- <-- Click Here. BECAUSE I SAID SO! "Whatever a man, a woman, another woman with a penis and a midget do to a donkey is their own business!"** __________________ ------------------------- &quot;I would NEVER call a retarded person a retard. Retard is what you call your friends when theyre acting retarded.&quot; - Michael Scott &quot;I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.&quot; -- Robert Dawkins

04-12-2005, 01:30 PM	#55 (permalink)
Stud Diesel Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 856 Rep Power: 5611	I know I’m slow and just saw this. <BLOCKQUOTE class="*-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bjaarki: I think Stud Diesel has it about right. Flirting between men and women – good-natured, salacious commentary and occasional physical contact hinting at a desire for more intimate relationship – is nothing more than one of the ways in which boys and girls above a certain age play with one another and tell one another they’re pretty... (snip)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well thank you, but since you are a much better wordsmith, I believe you expressed my point in a much more eloquent manner. __________________ &quot;Early to bed and early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise.&quot; — some dead guy.*

04-12-2005, 03:03 PM	#56 (permalink)
archive_Mr. Nobody Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 5,080 Rep Power: 11845	<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Now I admit, I still have questions and musings of my own <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Since it is your turn PQ, let us hear it. BTW, I never flirted with you, I only flirted with your nurses outfit __________________________________________________ __________________________________ Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. Benjamin Franklin Disclaimer: Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner. The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

04-09-2005, 01:00 PM	#51 (permalink)
The Thing Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 95 Rep Power: 5108	Excellent post Mr. N! You articulated just what I had been thinking about this subject. That is the difference between true and lasting love and a momentary infatuation. Funny...that a post started to lighten the mood on the board turns into such a deep study of love vs. a momentary trist. The Thing

04-12-2005, 04:11 PM	#57 (permalink)
Monster Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 5,637 Rep Power: 11827	...and I only flirted with her for those three days that PA didnt post. I thought he may have finaly realized she was too good for him and packed his stuff, so I thought I would do the right thing and "look after her". But then he posted again and said he had just been busy... sigh ------------------------- <-- Click Here. BECAUSE I SAID SO! *"Whatever a man, a woman, another woman with a penis and a midget do to a donkey is their own business!"* __________________ ------------------------- &quot;I would NEVER call a retarded person a retard. Retard is what you call your friends when theyre acting retarded.&quot; - Michael Scott &quot;I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.&quot; -- Robert Dawkins

04-12-2005, 09:07 PM	#58 (permalink)
Wood Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 634 Rep Power: 4083	<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bjaarki: But my wife's people - they've taken everything as just given to them, prescribed to them, questioning, and inventing anew, nothing. _.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It sort of sounds like all this is set in stone by God and is not subject to change. The ancient Jewish new year use to be in Autumn - like around August Sept. Then after Moses lead the Jews out of Egypt the new year changed to the month of Nissan (March to April). I guess even what God sets in stone is subject to change Its only through change that we can stay unchanged - or rather its through change that the important things stay the same. If we want a constant body temperature (which is important) we have to change our clothes to suit our environment - changing for winter in Alaska or summer in Mexico. To keep the important things the same we have to be willing to change the unimportant things. to keep the substantial constant we have to change the insubstantial.

04-12-2005, 09:19 PM	#59 (permalink)
Wood Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 634 Rep Power: 4083	Its funny, right now I am in a school/work situation that has heavy flirting. Everyone flirts. A woman (head honcho) runs the show for me right now and I have another female working/studying with me. The head honcho flirts with everyone - even the out in the open gay guys - and they flirt back with her. She grades people on their flirting abilities, yesterday she flirted with this gay guy and he flirted back and her comment was "I like him he flirts really good". She had not eaten breakfast and I had a candy bar in my front pocket. I told her and started to reach for it and she said something like "Yeah baby, you hungry? I got something for you right down here (mimicking reaching into her pants like I was at that moment - but more to the centerline like she is going to whup out a thing)" It was funny. Her husband often works in the office. Its so out in the open that I am sure nobody takes it very seriously. She is everybodies favorite - we see dozens of people each day (co workers, clients etc) and everyone loves this lady. Everyone hugs her, teases with her, has gifts for her - she is extremely social and well-liked. She flirts with everyone.

05-01-2005, 10:18 AM	#60 (permalink)
Wood Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 634 Rep Power: 4083	Alot of this thread seems to be devoted to what we get out of flirting. But what about what we give? Sort of "render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars" and "do unto others...". I mean if you can tell someone works hard at their physique, like you do - does it hurt to show appreciation. It does not have to lead to something "more" Funny story - the other day I was sending some money via western union for some, furniture or something. This big guy who works out at the same gym I do walked up and got a form to send money. I thought it was funny that he was ordering furniture or something too. Anyway the lady behind the counter was mid thirties or something. The age where many of them really start to feel like they are no longer young anymore. But she had a great physique. Sure she had some fairly large breasts, tiny waist, but she had some really good muscle tone. I could not help but stare a little bit. Her shirt was a bit sheer and a bit tight, and you could see some decent deltoid defination - although her delts were not real big - she obviously had good tone. I don't think she was trying to show her physique off - she had on this blue jean material apron covering up most of her front,white button up shirt and blue jeans. But as she moved you could still see she was pretty lean and muscular. At the very end when she handed me my paperwork and I was getting ready to leave I told her she had "one of the most impressive physiques I had seen in a long time". I was not leering at her and I don't think I came across as creepy. There were other people waiting in line, so I was not trying to turn it into something 'more". I hardly ever go to this place, so do not expect to see her again. I just simply told her that. She smiled very big and said thank you. I turned and walked away - making room for the big guy to go send money I had no intentions but to let her know she was looking good. Far better than most teenage girls. I did not say "impressive rack" "hot body" - I said she had one of the most impressive physiques I had seen in a long time. I would appreciate it if someone told me that I had an impressive physique. If they stood there leering at me, or I was at work and they tried to strike up a conversation or something I would probably feel uncomfortable, but if it was just in passing I would highly appreciate it. Flirting is one way of affirming to another that they look good. You do not have to get or expect anything in return. Especially those who probably may not hear it much - women who are not into clubbing and getting it from guys trying to get something in return, middle aged wives etc. If someone said that to my wife, in a non-creepy non-threatening type of way to my wife I would be glad - I don't say it enough. Is this wrong? Is it just giving credit where credit is due? Is it really flirting?

05-01-2005, 10:32 AM	#61 (permalink)
archive_Mr. Nobody Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 5,080 Rep Power: 11845	Nah, its not flirting. Flirting involves exchange. I'd consider it flirting if she'd reply and you two had struck up a teasing conversation. But paying complements where they are due, is what older, more mature people do without harm nor ulterior intent __________________________________________________ __________________________________ Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. Benjamin Franklin Disclaimer: Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner. The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

05-01-2005, 05:25 PM	#62 (permalink)
Wood Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 634 Rep Power: 4083	<BLOCKQUOTE class="*-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Nobody: older, more mature people do without harm nor ulterior intent ._<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Uhm....either thank you or f&% you. I am not sure which.

05-01-2005, 05:34 PM	#63 (permalink)
PQ Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 744 Rep Power: 4147	LMAO! I love this thread...

05-02-2005, 01:09 PM	#64 (permalink)
blu Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 170 Rep Power: 5849	This is good stuff...from the pure fun of flirting, to the what it will cost to reinvent a long term marriage. All the hard work and sacrifice to get there is well worth the cost of admission. Wood- that was good stuff. It is a big risk to be that transparent about what went on. Interesting that the temptation came right at the time you were wounded. It shows your ultimate integrity, no matter all the other apparently selfish things we do in life (spending wife-dating money on AAS). But, the last time I checked my wife sure appreciates the body I have when we do go out on a date. I am also with those that expect their spouse to stay the same. Thank God I didn't stay the same!!! I would have been divorced if I would have stayed the same. My youthful perceptions of how the world ran was a bit askew. How can life be a journey if we stay the same? As stated in some form above, flirting is often no more that a long stare into someone's eyes, where you both realize: "At another time, in different circumstances..." That is good to have now and again!

05-02-2005, 02:14 PM	#65 (permalink)
archive_Bjaarki Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 3,673 Rep Power: 9544	I agree with Mr. N. What you describe, Wood, is not flirting. It's being very sweet (and pretty brave, in some circumstances). It's showing generosity. I think you're right, I wish more people did that kind of thing. It really makes your day when someone says you look good, doesn't it? I'll bet you that woman has been thinking about your words ever since. What a kind and brave thing you did, sir. It's hard to know when to do it, when it won't be taken wrong, but I, too, search for ways to let someone who is pleasing to the eye know that they are, especially older women who probably don't hear it as much as younger lookers. Awhile ago, I was training near a gal I run across now and then, the mother of one of my son's baseball teammates, and a very distant acquaintance of mine. Maybe 48, 49-years-old, but she looks real good, with a body like a girl. She trains hard, like a warrior, and has been doing so for years, now. I like to reward that. So, on impulse, and at some risk (since she knows my wife), I told her "You really look good, Sharon. Your hard work really shows. You don't look like a woman. You look like a chick." You should have seen her eyes light up. I made her day, and she made mine, just from the sense of pleasure and appreciation I'd given her. Let's watch this thread a little longer, see if there is any more discussion. If not, I nominate it for the Hall of Fame. I think this is one of the most interesting give-and-takes we've had on the board in a long time. Bjaarki First, say to yourself what you would become. Then, do what you have to do. __________________ First, say to yourself what you would become. Then, do what you have to do.

05-06-2005, 11:17 PM	#66 (permalink)
Wood Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 634 Rep Power: 4083	<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Decaman: Good post wood. Your a better man than me . I would have had her ass up right after she agreed to go out with me lol! http://www.anabolicfitness.com/dman/dman.jpg Deal with reality or Reality will deal with you<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> In all honesty the fear of rejection probably held me back some too.

05-06-2005, 11:55 PM	#67 (permalink)
Wood Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 634 Rep Power: 4083	<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bjaarki: Wood, and I (I can't speak for Mr. N, nor even for Wood, who is doing a damned good job of speaking for himself here), with a much much longer history with our mates - a history including significant wounds (as the letters he discovered, in Wood's case; the conditionality of my wife's love for me, in my case) - see things with a different perspective. Less absolute. More forgiving of ourselves. And, perhaps, with more of a sense of the final, essential loneliness to which we descend ... eventually to death, since we all die alone. The only answer to that essential loneliness is love. Wherever it may be found. Not necessarily sex - .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Great to re-read. Several things are infinite and brief at the same time. Pain is one. Love is another. Time seems to feeze into a moment that lasts forever and is infinite, yet is gone in a blink of an eye. It is as though the moment stands still, fills all space. Intense physical pain can be all consuming. As can intense emotional pain. But intense love does the same. I can remember right before I got married I had a situation in which I had to make a choice. I had met this one girl as a friend. The only one to give my wife any run for her money. In retrospect the thing that really attracted me to her was how attracted to me she seemed to be - also in retrospect it may have been more of a game to her than anything, she may have just wanted to see if she could beat out my wife. Not entirely but probably partly. This girl and I saw alot of each other, always more in a friendly way. One night we happened to meet out dancing. She asked me to dance. Soon it was a slow dance. We awkwardly danced with great distance between us, but soon she melted into my arms, right up against me and her body seemed to fit against mine like two hands folded. Maybe it was because I had not been dating for about a year while waiting for my wife, but this one slow dance was very emotionally moving as she laid her head on my chest. It was only a slow dance but it was a moment in which everything else faded away, and for a moment in the entire universe it was just us two. Soon thereafter she sent me this letter, which seems strange now almost 20 years later, in which she told me how I was the perfect guy for her etc etc etc. We had never made out or anything, although we had spent alot of time together. A few months later she led me into a wrestling match and a kiss - and I had a decision since this was an open door that was quite appealing. I find it funny that she would send me such a letter considering we had never really dated, made out etc prior to her sending her letter - I have had similar things happen before - I may have to post these under the stalker post - except that in this case I was also strongly attracted to her. Of course I ended up deciding to marry my wife. perhaps 9 years after we married, my wife and I visited a friend in another state. in another one of life's odd twists, this girl was working for these friends of ours - as sort of a day nanny. When I found out she was going to be there I could not believe it. I got really nervous prior to seeing her. My wife got depressed - since my wife had known about her. When I met her, she still looked beautiful to me. But I felt no attraction. It was great to talk to her. Life had given her, her share of ups and downs. She had married a great guy she was in love with. He was a country and western singer. They had a son and while she was pregnant her husband had an affair with one of the many groupies that attended his concerts. It was quite painful. Of course they eventually divorced. I expressed to her how much she meant to me a decade previously - this made her grin and she felt flattered - again probably soemthig she had not felt for ages since her cheating husband had dumped on her. It was great to see her, express the feelings I had for her previously, give a sense of closure to both of us, and then move on. I have not seen her since - that was about 7 years ago. Pain - having someone cheat on you. Physical pain. Emotional pain. Lasts forever in many ways. Love is the only antidote to deep pain. There is something eternal about deep pain and deep love. There is some sort of investment in both. 10 years after the fact, a brief reflection on either a painful or loving event still evokes a response. They are like bank accounts of emotion we can dip into or that come to collect a fee. I can still remember, her pressed against me like another shirt, her head on my chest like she belonged there, both of us wrapped in the darkness of the dance floor, the music melting away the world around us. I know we both felt it. There was a connection that engrained a permenant memory in me - more than a memory, a part of me relives it,.... lives it for the first time, when I think about it. The thought of it rubs away equally intense memories of pain that I have had. Of course I think there is a God, - only something ultimately good and something ultimately intelligent could make such a delicate balance in all things in life, including our emotions. While the clockwork nature of the rising and setting of the sun, the change of the seasons, the pollenation of fig trees by Mediterranean wasps is an amazing dance of programmed intelligence - our emotional universe is much more real than any physical phenomenon in the world we can see and touch. Flirting breaks the isolation, the loneliness that is part and parcel of human experience. We can go through life, horribly alone - feeling horribly isolated. Feeling the frustration of being remarkably similar to everyone else, yet feeling remarkably different. Feeling the anguish of wanting to bond, wanting to reach out - but lacking opportunity and ability to make any real connections. We can fuck our brains out. Party until the sun rises again. Spend hours in a social situation - and not make as meaningful of a moment as one dance, one flirty look, one well written thought creates. Flirting is an opportunity to feel a connection without the mounds of expectation that come with marraige. Marraige provides companionship, understanding, a balm of acceptance. As great as marraige is, the fine print, the unexpected baggage that can come along, the mileage and wear and tear that one can never foresee - can suffocate, inprison, and weigh down. Flirting is an opportunity to receive some balm without all the burden. It is a true free lunch. It is receiving a $25 dollar tube of medicine, for only $2 plus a gift certificate. It can provide the extra sugar that is forgotten while we are fullfilling our responsibilities of a real relationship. Just make sure there is no bill left to be paid on the flirting, no unseen tab that is expected to be paid at a later date. [This message was edited by Wood on 05-07-05 at 02:08 AM.]

05-07-2005, 06:05 AM	#68 (permalink)
archive_LuckyDog Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 809 Rep Power: 6678	<BLOCKQUOTE class="-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Flirting is an opportunity to feel a connection without the mounds of expectation that come with marraige. Marraige provides companionship, understanding, a balm of acceptance. As great as marraige is, the fine print, the unexpected baggage that can come along, the mileage and wear and tear that one can never foresee - can suffocate, inprison, and weigh down. Flirting is an opportunity to receive some balm without all the burden. It is a true free lunch. It is receiving a $25 dollar tube of medicine, for only $2 plus a gift certificate. It can provide the extra sugar that is forgotten while we are fullfilling our responsibilities of a real relationship. Just make sure there is no bill left to be paid on the flirting, no unseen tab that is expected to be paid at a later date. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks Wood....You just completely talked me out of EVER getting married...** So where's my free lunch again?? LD "Only average athletes, those that are far from excellent prepare with average methods. A Champion is not average, but exceptional." ~Vladimir Zatsiorsky __________________ &quot;Only average athletes, those that are far from excellent prepare with average methods. A Champion is not average, but exceptional.&quot; ~Vladimir Zatsiorsky

05-07-2005, 06:13 AM	#69 (permalink)
archive_Bjaarki Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 3,673 Rep Power: 9544	God damn! That is one of the most moving, insightful, and emotionally intricate things I have ever read on this board, Wood. You are growing spiritually by leaps and bounds. Your complexity is unfolding, your pain breaking through sometimes, in a matrix of deep peace. It is a great joy to see. Bjaarki __________________ First, say to yourself what you would become. Then, do what you have to do.