do you believe in GOD?

02-22-2005, 06:22 PM

if so why?

just curiuos

Machine · 02-22-2005, 07:44 PM

I'll have to reply yes on this one.I find it hard to believe that one day two atoms clashed together and the next thing you know here we are.On the other hand,I don't follow religion too closely due to the variables involved.Especially when it comes to how bad religion has been twisted and to contorted to fit the needs of the present.

archive_1911 · 02-22-2005, 08:45 PM

02-22-2005, 08:59 PM

dont forget the why

archive_therealj · 02-22-2005, 10:25 PM

I do. Reason why? My six year old daughter, she's simply too perfect to come from her mom and I alone. She taught me love, no small task

-----------------------------
-----------------------------
therealj@anabolicfitness.net

[This message was edited by therealj on 02-27-05 at 01:47 AM.]

02-22-2005, 10:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by therealj:
I do. Reason why? My six year old daughter, she's simply to perfect to come from her mom and I alone. She taught me love, no small task

-----------------------------
-----------------------------
therealj@anabolicfitness.net
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

now THATS! a great answer thanks...

archive_therealj · 02-22-2005, 10:33 PM

-----------------------------
-----------------------------
therealj@anabolicfitness.net

archive_Frackal · 02-23-2005, 12:04 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by 1911:
No.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How come?

archive_Mr. Nobody · 02-23-2005, 07:49 AM

First, define God. Historically, the creator's name and role has been used to formant more conflicts and divisions then peace.

Second, define God's role in this Universe: Interactive, passive, punisher, rewarder? Define how you see God? Define any prophets and their role. Do you believe in the bible as a divine book, written by God, or a document written by man, a guide to modern civilization, foundation of all modern laws.

You all know my position already: I believe we all are God, we are parts of a whole, like cells of a body. With that, I categorically deny man's claim to divinity and proclaim all living matter to be on an even plain. We are not special nor does our intelligence guarantee us immortality. We are from this planet, we emerged from single cells and are nothing more nor better than animals ourselves. We kill to survive and may not be the pinnacle of evolution after all. 10,000 years of civilization does not spell success yet, if compared to the duration of other living organisms on this planet. The book of man is still being written and mother earth is watching.

God cares as much about mankind as you care about a skin cell of your left toe. God does exist, his interaction with mankind does not. We live in an expanding universe. The visible part of it spans across 13.7 billion light years and contains billions of galaxies such as our own. Our galaxy contains billions of star systems such as Solar and recent discoveries confirm a high percentage of planets, even earth like, close enough to stars for liquid water to exist.......yet we cling to our "God given right" to be special, to be the chosen species. Moreover, even among us apes, some "religions" feel to be "more" chosen than others.......who are we kidding.

Two atoms smashed or better yet, energy (The Big Bang- God) experienced a symmetry breaking and solidified not unlike water and ice develops out of water vapors and the laws of physics allowed for all that we can see, feel and experience. It took eons, but that is all that has happened, happens and will happen...

__________________________________________________ __________________________________
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
Benjamin Franklin

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[This message was edited by Mr. Nobody on 02-23-05 at 10:01 AM.]

archive_LuckyDog · 02-23-2005, 08:10 AM

Mr. N, your beliefs in God are interesting to me. I guess they make sense to any human who applies science (read: Scientist) to answer that question. Where do you develop your theories from, as in what books do you read, etc. I am intrigued...

LD

Education is a continuous process ending only when ambition comes to a halt.
-Col. R. I. Rees

archive_Mr. Nobody · 02-23-2005, 08:37 AM

I have always had a very keene interest in physics and cosmology. For me, these sciences are of the highest value, phylosophycally and speak to me most honestly about my most fundamental questions. My views took shape in my late teens and have been solidified over the years as cosmology progresses and matures.

"The Fabric of the Cosmos" Brian Greene
"The Elegant Universe" Brian Green

Brian Green is the foremost expert on "String Theory", an attempt to unify all matter and all forces within a "Theory of Everything".

I have read many more older physics and astronomy books in my teens.

"The Power of Myth" Joseph Campbell, which outlines the history of creationism and religion. If you have any questions as to why we (need to) belief in a benevolent God, this book will enlighten you tremendously.

I think the above books will guide you to think at least. The views I express are not specifically derived from the books only, but are, of course based on life experience as well. I used to also read many credible science fiction books in my youth.
I was raised catholic and rejected their rigourous belief system early on. I questioned the child-parent relationship of Man versus God as soon as I was old enough to think for myself. And since no one could answer my childhood questions satisfactorily, I began to research on my own...................

__________________________________________________ __________________________________
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
Benjamin Franklin

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[This message was edited by Mr. Nobody on 02-23-05 at 11:05 AM.]

archive_Ulter · 02-23-2005, 09:11 AM

I believe in God but not in anything ever written by man about him.

joepalooka · 02-23-2005, 09:48 AM

No! I don't beleive in a supreme being. Like Mr. Nobody I was raised catholic and I did not agree with the belief system early on. I spent many years in college studying philosphy and came to my own conclusion. I suffer from CRS(cant remember shit) so I can't recite any philosphy off hand with out looking up references first. I beleive the bible is a book of stories, much like greek mythology.

Life is based on experiences. We have experiences through our senses. Our senses show us visual, physical reality. And only the person can define what is real and what is not. Where in nature do you find God.

New scientific facts are proved everyday.

archive_Bjaarki · 02-23-2005, 11:55 AM

I believe in a Divine Providence that, for the purpose of discourse, I refer to as "God." But beyond that most hazy of beliefs, I don't know anything.

Why do I believe? Because I sense a beauty, a benevolence, almost but not quite disinterested, that inhabits the quiet places in the world. The hills. The woods. The darkened streets of my small town during one of my meditative walks at night. I sense it in the full moon rising radiantly in the night sky, and in a flight of cormorants scudding low across the water at the shore. I sense it in the strength and animal reach of my arms as I grasp the branch of a tree in my front yard at night, a cool breeze flowing around my body, reminding me how great it is to be a Man. And I sense it most acutely in my accumulating age, as though, growing older, I am growing closer to some ... source.

It is so damned exciting. I wish I could communicate that to you.

I open some inner place in my heart, and it fills. It just ... fills. With what? I think it fills ... with God.

Bjaarki

archive_Mr. Nobody · 02-23-2005, 12:55 PM

Wait a minute. A topic tailor made for Bjaarki and my responses are twice as long....is this Bizarro World?

__________________________________________________ __________________________________
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
Benjamin Franklin

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

archive_Bjaarki · 02-23-2005, 01:30 PM

I love your string theory responses and admire and trust your knowledge, Mr. N. You are surely a wizard who would have a place at my table.

That said, I've learned that my internal world is every bit as important as your external world. Though the rules and logic are different, the experience is there, as Ulter and others posted to my "I See Dead People" thread. My response to this threadstarter, and Ulter's response, is shorter than yours because we're not trying to convince anyone of anything. I trust that, about issues as profound as belief in God, those who have ears to hear, will hear, and those who do not, will not.

It's all good, either way.

Be well.

Bjaarki

archive_Mr. Nobody · 02-23-2005, 01:43 PM

Let me just say that I admire your responses, despite my cocky blibs.
I believe that your northern culture finds it vulgar to discuss intemate issues such as this one and that your brief reply reflects that. As born Austrian, without southern influence in that regard (obviously), I still feel the weight of oppressive catholicism and voice my differing and distinct beliefs every chance I get. And yes, I do the same with my southern brothers down here, to which they reply a kind: "We'll pray for you", lol

__________________________________________________ __________________________________
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
Benjamin Franklin

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[This message was edited by Mr. Nobody on 02-24-05 at 07:06 AM.]

02-23-2005, 03:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bjaarki:

It is so damned exciting. I wish I could communicate that to you.

Bjaarki<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh but you have

Decaman · 02-23-2005, 04:21 PM

I believe in god but i can't exactly say why. It's just a feeling I have that he watches over me I guess.

Deal with reality
or
Reality will deal with you

02-23-2005, 05:24 PM

Mr N I am tempted to share my thoughts

but do not want to put any one off

02-23-2005, 06:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Decaman:
I believe in god but i can't exactly say why. It's just a feeling I have that he watches over me I guess.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thats pretty cool

Monster · 02-23-2005, 06:09 PM

Religion and gambling are the opiates of the poor and ignorant.

-------------------------

"Will it not be felt that Virtue, however beautiful, becomes the worst of all attitudes when it is found too feeble to contend with Vice..."

02-23-2005, 06:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ulter:
I believe in God but not in anything ever written by man about him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

we talked about this before via phone your thoughts were enlightening

I would say that some written is accurate

but most always always translated in a way that has caused problems

but in the long term it will all work out

thank GOD!

we are allowed to participate in the process of Truth and discovery

even if in our time we still must deal with historical short comings, and our own short comings do to are current evolutionary state

archive_1911 · 02-23-2005, 09:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>"OMEGAone: dont forget the why"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>"Frackal: How come?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The "why or How" is irrelevant fellas (you asked and...just another man's [well thought] sincere response). But I will say that; "I don't accept the contrived entity" and I'm comfortable/confident with my position on the subject.

Later,

02-22-2005, 06:22 PM	#1 (permalink)
Guest Posts: n/a	do you believe in GOD? if so why? just curiuos

02-22-2005, 08:45 PM	#3 (permalink)
archive_1911 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 1,249 Rep Power: 7120	No. __________________ Changed sig font - 3/15/07 migration

02-22-2005, 10:29 PM	#6 (permalink)
Guest Posts: n/a	<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by therealj: I do. Reason why? My six year old daughter, she's simply to perfect to come from her mom and I alone. She taught me love, no small task ----------------------------- ----------------------------- therealj@anabolicfitness.net <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> now THATS! a great answer thanks...

02-23-2005, 12:04 AM	#8 (permalink)
archive_Frackal Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 374 Rep Power: 6025	<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 1911: No.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> How come?

02-23-2005, 08:10 AM	#10 (permalink)
archive_LuckyDog Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 809 Rep Power: 6678	Mr. N, your beliefs in God are interesting to me. I guess they make sense to any human who applies science (read: Scientist) to answer that question. Where do you develop your theories from, as in what books do you read, etc. I am intrigued... LD Education is a continuous process ending only when ambition comes to a halt. -Col. R. I. Rees __________________ &quot;Only average athletes, those that are far from excellent prepare with average methods. A Champion is not average, but exceptional.&quot; ~Vladimir Zatsiorsky

02-22-2005, 07:44 PM	#2 (permalink)
Machine Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 171 Rep Power: 3214	I'll have to reply yes on this one.I find it hard to believe that one day two atoms clashed together and the next thing you know here we are.On the other hand,I don't follow religion too closely due to the variables involved.Especially when it comes to how bad religion has been twisted and to contorted to fit the needs of the present.

02-22-2005, 08:59 PM	#4 (permalink)
Guest Posts: n/a	dont forget the why

02-22-2005, 10:25 PM	#5 (permalink)
archive_therealj Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 2,439 Rep Power: 8310	I do. Reason why? My six year old daughter, she's simply too perfect to come from her mom and I alone. She taught me love, no small task ----------------------------- ----------------------------- therealj@anabolicfitness.net [This message was edited by therealj on 02-27-05 at 01:47 AM.]

02-22-2005, 10:33 PM	#7 (permalink)
archive_therealj Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 2,439 Rep Power: 8310	----------------------------- ----------------------------- therealj@anabolicfitness.net

02-23-2005, 07:49 AM	#9 (permalink)
archive_Mr. Nobody Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 5,080 Rep Power: 11845	First, define God. Historically, the creator's name and role has been used to formant more conflicts and divisions then peace. Second, define God's role in this Universe: Interactive, passive, punisher, rewarder? Define how you see God? Define any prophets and their role. Do you believe in the bible as a divine book, written by God, or a document written by man, a guide to modern civilization, foundation of all modern laws. You all know my position already: I believe we all are God, we are parts of a whole, like cells of a body. With that, I categorically deny man's claim to divinity and proclaim all living matter to be on an even plain. We are not special nor does our intelligence guarantee us immortality. We are from this planet, we emerged from single cells and are nothing more nor better than animals ourselves. We kill to survive and may not be the pinnacle of evolution after all. 10,000 years of civilization does not spell success yet, if compared to the duration of other living organisms on this planet. The book of man is still being written and mother earth is watching. God cares as much about mankind as you care about a skin cell of your left toe. God does exist, his interaction with mankind does not. We live in an expanding universe. The visible part of it spans across 13.7 billion light years and contains billions of galaxies such as our own. Our galaxy contains billions of star systems such as Solar and recent discoveries confirm a high percentage of planets, even earth like, close enough to stars for liquid water to exist.......yet we cling to our "God given right" to be special, to be the chosen species. Moreover, even among us apes, some "religions" feel to be "more" chosen than others.......who are we kidding. Two atoms smashed or better yet, energy (The Big Bang- God) experienced a symmetry breaking and solidified not unlike water and ice develops out of water vapors and the laws of physics allowed for all that we can see, feel and experience. It took eons, but that is all that has happened, happens and will happen... __________________________________________________ __________________________________ Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. Benjamin Franklin Disclaimer: Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner. The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice. [This message was edited by Mr. Nobody on 02-23-05 at 10:01 AM.]

02-23-2005, 08:37 AM	#11 (permalink)
archive_Mr. Nobody Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 5,080 Rep Power: 11845	I have always had a very keene interest in physics and cosmology. For me, these sciences are of the highest value, phylosophycally and speak to me most honestly about my most fundamental questions. My views took shape in my late teens and have been solidified over the years as cosmology progresses and matures. "The Fabric of the Cosmos" Brian Greene "The Elegant Universe" Brian Green Brian Green is the foremost expert on "String Theory", an attempt to unify all matter and all forces within a "Theory of Everything". I have read many more older physics and astronomy books in my teens. "The Power of Myth" Joseph Campbell, which outlines the history of creationism and religion. If you have any questions as to why we (need to) belief in a benevolent God, this book will enlighten you tremendously. I think the above books will guide you to think at least. The views I express are not specifically derived from the books only, but are, of course based on life experience as well. I used to also read many credible science fiction books in my youth. I was raised catholic and rejected their rigourous belief system early on. I questioned the child-parent relationship of Man versus God as soon as I was old enough to think for myself. And since no one could answer my childhood questions satisfactorily, I began to research on my own................... __________________________________________________ __________________________________ Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. Benjamin Franklin Disclaimer: Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner. The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice. [This message was edited by Mr. Nobody on 02-23-05 at 11:05 AM.]

02-23-2005, 09:11 AM	#12 (permalink)
archive_Ulter Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 15,388 Rep Power: 21812	I believe in God but not in anything ever written by man about him. __________________

02-23-2005, 09:48 AM	#13 (permalink)
joepalooka Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,745 Rep Power: 5006	No! I don't beleive in a supreme being. Like Mr. Nobody I was raised catholic and I did not agree with the belief system early on. I spent many years in college studying philosphy and came to my own conclusion. I suffer from CRS(cant remember shit) so I can't recite any philosphy off hand with out looking up references first. I beleive the bible is a book of stories, much like greek mythology. Life is based on experiences. We have experiences through our senses. Our senses show us visual, physical reality. And only the person can define what is real and what is not. Where in nature do you find God. New scientific facts are proved everyday. __________________

02-23-2005, 11:55 AM	#14 (permalink)
archive_Bjaarki Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 3,673 Rep Power: 9544	I believe in a Divine Providence that, for the purpose of discourse, I refer to as "God." But beyond that most hazy of beliefs, I don't know anything. Why do I believe? Because I sense a beauty, a benevolence, almost but not quite disinterested, that inhabits the quiet places in the world. The hills. The woods. The darkened streets of my small town during one of my meditative walks at night. I sense it in the full moon rising radiantly in the night sky, and in a flight of cormorants scudding low across the water at the shore. I sense it in the strength and animal reach of my arms as I grasp the branch of a tree in my front yard at night, a cool breeze flowing around my body, reminding me how great it is to be a Man. And I sense it most acutely in my accumulating age, as though, growing older, I am growing closer to some ... source. It is so damned exciting. I wish I could communicate that to you. I open some inner place in my heart, and it fills. It just ... fills. With what? I think it fills ... with God. Bjaarki __________________ First, say to yourself what you would become. Then, do what you have to do.

02-23-2005, 12:55 PM	#15 (permalink)
archive_Mr. Nobody Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 5,080 Rep Power: 11845	Wait a minute. A topic tailor made for Bjaarki and my responses are twice as long....is this Bizarro World? __________________________________________________ __________________________________ Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. Benjamin Franklin Disclaimer: Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner. The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

02-23-2005, 01:30 PM	#16 (permalink)
archive_Bjaarki Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 3,673 Rep Power: 9544	I love your string theory responses and admire and trust your knowledge, Mr. N. You are surely a wizard who would have a place at my table. That said, I've learned that my internal world is every bit as important as your external world. Though the rules and logic are different, the experience is there, as Ulter and others posted to my "I See Dead People" thread. My response to this threadstarter, and Ulter's response, is shorter than yours because we're not trying to convince anyone of anything. I trust that, about issues as profound as belief in God, those who have ears to hear, will hear, and those who do not, will not. It's all good, either way. Be well. Bjaarki __________________ First, say to yourself what you would become. Then, do what you have to do.

02-23-2005, 01:43 PM	#17 (permalink)
archive_Mr. Nobody Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 5,080 Rep Power: 11845	Let me just say that I admire your responses, despite my cocky blibs. I believe that your northern culture finds it vulgar to discuss intemate issues such as this one and that your brief reply reflects that. As born Austrian, without southern influence in that regard (obviously), I still feel the weight of oppressive catholicism and voice my differing and distinct beliefs every chance I get. And yes, I do the same with my southern brothers down here, to which they reply a kind: "We'll pray for you", lol __________________________________________________ __________________________________ Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. Benjamin Franklin Disclaimer: Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner. The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice. [This message was edited by Mr. Nobody on 02-24-05 at 07:06 AM.]

02-23-2005, 03:32 PM	#18 (permalink)
Guest Posts: n/a	<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bjaarki: It is so damned exciting. I wish I could communicate that to you. Bjaarki<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> oh but you have

02-23-2005, 04:21 PM	#19 (permalink)
Decaman Super Moderator Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 3,008 Rep Power: 10281	I believe in god but i can't exactly say why. It's just a feeling I have that he watches over me I guess. Deal with reality or Reality will deal with you __________________ Deal with reality or Reality will deal with you

02-23-2005, 05:24 PM	#20 (permalink)
Guest Posts: n/a	Mr N I am tempted to share my thoughts but do not want to put any one off

02-23-2005, 06:07 PM	#21 (permalink)
Guest Posts: n/a	<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Decaman: I believe in god but i can't exactly say why. It's just a feeling I have that he watches over me I guess. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> thats pretty cool

02-23-2005, 06:09 PM	#22 (permalink)
Monster Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 5,637 Rep Power: 11827	Religion and gambling are the opiates of the poor and ignorant. ------------------------- *"Will it not be felt that Virtue, however beautiful, becomes the worst of all attitudes when it is found too feeble to contend with Vice..."* __________________ ------------------------- &quot;I would NEVER call a retarded person a retard. Retard is what you call your friends when theyre acting retarded.&quot; - Michael Scott &quot;I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.&quot; -- Robert Dawkins

02-23-2005, 06:18 PM	#23 (permalink)
Guest Posts: n/a	<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ulter: I believe in God but not in anything ever written by man about him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> we talked about this before via phone your thoughts were enlightening I would say that some written is accurate but most always always translated in a way that has caused problems but in the long term it will all work out thank GOD! we are allowed to participate in the process of Truth and discovery even if in our time we still must deal with historical short comings, and our own short comings do to are current evolutionary state

02-23-2005, 09:57 PM	#24 (permalink)
archive_1911 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 1,249 Rep Power: 7120	<BLOCKQUOTE class="-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"OMEGAone: dont forget the why"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE class="-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"Frackal: How come?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The "why or How" is irrelevant fellas (you asked and...just another man's [well thought] sincere response). But I will say that; "I don't accept the contrived entity" and I'm comfortable/confident with my position on the subject. Later, __________________ Changed sig font - 3/15/07 migration