do you believe in GOD? - Page 3

macdaddy · 02-28-2005, 12:12 PM

What may be known about God is plain, because God has made it plain. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made.

02-28-2005, 06:44 PM

wow almost 1000 views

archive_Bjaarki · 03-01-2005, 06:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Hell, maybe Bjaarki is God and just tricking us all? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some people tell me I act like I think I am.

PQ · 03-01-2005, 04:39 PM

LOL Bjaarki, but you have to admit, in the gym with Prodigy or Crystal method pounding in your brain you DO feel like God, or a god at least...

But back to topic...I'm not sure what I believe to tell you the truth. But I think, metaphorically speaking of course, that demons and angels exist right here...and we, through our actions, make our own heaven or hell...as for the unknown, it is simply that...unknown.

Monster · 03-02-2005, 05:45 AM

"It was Gods will."

That phrase is a catch-all cop out people use to justify their own inaction, laziness, stupidity, fear of the unknown... you name it.
Orginized religion originally was created to aid simple minded people in understanding things their brain couldnt fathom (things like where the sun goes at nigh...), and later became a tool to oppress them.

As clergymen became increasingly wealthy in the face of a starving and disease stricken poulace, the monks of the middle ages popularized all of the "blessed are the poor" and "the meak shall inherit such and such" talk. It was a way to brain wash the poor and suffering into putting up with eating moldy bread and stale water while the local bishop wore silk and ate mutton and drank fine wines.
At one point the Pope had the largest standing army in the world and the Vatican was one of the largest most powerful land holders in existance. The popes conquests were, of course, in the name of God (not to fatten the churches coffers).

Spirituality and the belief in something bigger than us doesnt necessatate believeing in "God". What was once seen as an "act of God" is now easily explainable through simple science... so what makes people think that the few remaining unexplained "acts of God" wont at some point as we and science matures further be explainable and recreatable through scientific means.

God is a cop-out.

-------------------------

"Will it not be felt that Virtue, however beautiful, becomes the worst of all attitudes when it is found too feeble to contend with Vice..."

PQ · 03-02-2005, 06:03 AM

Monster, have you read "The Family" by Mario Puzo? It's a romp with the infamous Borgias...from your post, I think you'd dig it!

Monster · 03-02-2005, 06:53 AM

I'll look for it while Im out today. It sounds right up my alley...

-------------------------

"Will it not be felt that Virtue, however beautiful, becomes the worst of all attitudes when it is found too feeble to contend with Vice..."

macdaddy · 03-02-2005, 07:31 AM

Monster, you present a great argument against religion, with which I agree. When greedy people run the show and only have their best interests in mind, it will pervert the best of ideas, or ideologies.

But it's not so much an argument against God.

archive_Bjaarki · 03-02-2005, 11:51 AM

As a scientist myself, I've come to appreciate that science can function as a kind of "God" itself, as an object of veneration, complete trust, and as an arbiter of "the truth." "Science," things that are "scientific," take on a kind of halo, they become beyond dispute because they have been "proven scientifically."

I know, also as a scientist myself, that to venerate science in that way is an error. It is an error because science is nothing more than a human creation, a method about which scientists themselves often disagree, and a body of "facts" that are inextricably linked to their geographic and temporal origin. There really IS NO "SCIENCE," and to pretend there is is to reify a mere human conceit. Compare, say, the science of 21st century America, with the science of 21st century China, much less the science of 19th century Germany. The science of these different times and places bears little more resemblance than does their art.

My take home point here is not to substitute one God for another God. At least not a God as full of flaws and prone to error as the western scientific tradition. A useful tool? Certainly. But only that. It can supply the "how," but not the "why." For that, you must consult the spirit, the God, within you.

Bjaarki

First, say to yourself what you would become.
Then, do what you have to do.

archive_Mr. Nobody · 03-03-2005, 09:30 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
As a scientist myself, I've come to appreciate that science can function as a kind of "God" itself <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely. I have voiced that thought before. And I am one most guilty of making that mistake, of confusing science as God, a given, an absolute truth. Not anymore. I know science only serves as a tool, as the journey to enlightenment. Without that tool, without that attempt for total knowledge, without science's ability to lift myself out of self absorption, without this most objective effort of explaining the systems of this reality, there can be no peace for me. Science is only the teaching of the existing, a school of deductions, a tool to read, not text itself. I understand that. I understand that science can not explain the origins, the reasons, the meanings of reality.
However, it lets me think outside the box, it lets me look at our most fundamental questions from different angles, it lets me examine the validity and the logic of my questions. And for that I am eternally thankful.

We have evolved to recognize patterns. This ability has served us well. It has made us a most successful hunter and secured our survival for eons, but at a price. The ability to recognize and memorize a design and adapt quickly has also brought the realization of mortality and self awareness. It was a gradual evolution, not something bestowed upon us by God, but an unfortunate outcome of ever increasing intelligence. You can see the same happening in our closest relative, the chimp. He has limited intelligence and with that some of the benefits and trappings of self awareness.
So, what does that mean? What am I trying to say? I have said it before and I'll say it again: Maybe there is no grand design, no superior intelligence, no ultimate intent, no reason, no judgment, no good, no evil just self preservation. Maybe all this cosmos is, is a dance of matter and energy in a infinite struggle against entropy. Maybe all this realm is, is the opposite of eternal nothingness in the ultimate symmetry of reality

__________________________________________________ __________________________________
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
Benjamin Franklin

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

archive_Bjaarki · 03-07-2005, 03:07 PM

This thread seems to have slowed down. I think, considering the number of posts and views, the interest of the topic to members, and especially Mr. N's mini-dissertations scattered throughout, this thread should go to the Hall of Fame.

Bjaarki

archive_Ulter · 03-07-2005, 03:34 PM

I would agree with you except that the thread is against the rules. It's like putting Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame.

03-07-2005, 03:44 PM

lol at Ulter

but he makes sense

we got lucky on the topic

on other boards in certainly would have not unfolded as nicely as this one did

archive_Bjaarki · 03-07-2005, 04:36 PM

That's very funny, Ulter. I often had that thought - no sex, no religion in the OT forum - when reading and posting to this thread. But that rule applies to the OT forum, not to the HOF, right? Can't we have a religion thread in the HOF? We've certainly had some pretty deep philosophical ones. I should know because I started several.

I don't think there's any rule prohibiting this thread from the HOF. But even if there were, the bottom line is that this is a fine thread. Lots of people posted very sincere, very spiritual things, and others posted hard-headed empirical views. But the discussion was very nice, animated but respectful, insightful, perceptive ... exactly what we would like the public to see when they hear about gear and start conjuring images of Neanderthals in their heads. Gearheads think about this stuff, too. I think that's fine, and that it should be honored.

I'm just a lil' ol' member here, but if it were my decision, I would put this thread in the Hall of Fame.

It was fun, either way.

Bjaarki

First, say to yourself what you would become.
Then, do what you have to do.

archive_Mr. Nobody · 03-07-2005, 07:09 PM

Well, I could care less where this post goes but appreciate the kind words from a fellow thinker, even if he is wrong

.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
1) Sex - no pics,links or graphic discussion of sexual material will be tolerated. If you wouldn't allow your 13 year old daughter to read it, don't post it

2) Race - no need to elaborate

3) Religion - there's wars over 2000 years old already, we don't need any here

4) E-mail/Private message - there is no need for " joeblow check you P.M " topics, they are a waste of board space and will not be tolerated as stand alone posts
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct me if I am wrong, but this post was not about religion. It was about spirituality and deep, personal beliefs....BIG DIFFERENCE. Furthermore, I got the feeling, that we all agreed about religion being the root of the problem instead of the solution (or was it just me

)

And I concure, it was much fun.....

__________________________________________________ __________________________________
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
Benjamin Franklin

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

03-01-2005, 06:57 AM	#53 (permalink)
archive_Bjaarki Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 3,673 Rep Power: 9540	<BLOCKQUOTE class="*-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Hell, maybe Bjaarki is God and just tricking us all? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Some people tell me I act like I think* I am. __________________ First, say to yourself what you would become. Then, do what you have to do.

03-02-2005, 05:45 AM	#55 (permalink)
Monster Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 5,637 Rep Power: 11823	"It was Gods will." That phrase is a catch-all cop out people use to justify their own inaction, laziness, stupidity, fear of the unknown... you name it. Orginized religion originally was created to aid simple minded people in understanding things their brain couldnt fathom (things like where the sun goes at nigh...), and later became a tool to oppress them. As clergymen became increasingly wealthy in the face of a starving and disease stricken poulace, the monks of the middle ages popularized all of the "blessed are the poor" and "the meak shall inherit such and such" talk. It was a way to brain wash the poor and suffering into putting up with eating moldy bread and stale water while the local bishop wore silk and ate mutton and drank fine wines. At one point the Pope had the largest standing army in the world and the Vatican was one of the largest most powerful land holders in existance. The popes conquests were, of course, in the name of God (not to fatten the churches coffers). Spirituality and the belief in something bigger than us doesnt necessatate believeing in "God". What was once seen as an "act of God" is now easily explainable through simple science... so what makes people think that the few remaining unexplained "acts of God" wont at some point as we and science matures further be explainable and recreatable through scientific means. God is a cop-out. ------------------------- *"Will it not be felt that Virtue, however beautiful, becomes the worst of all attitudes when it is found too feeble to contend with Vice..."* __________________ ------------------------- &quot;I would NEVER call a retarded person a retard. Retard is what you call your friends when theyre acting retarded.&quot; - Michael Scott &quot;I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.&quot; -- Robert Dawkins

03-02-2005, 06:53 AM	#57 (permalink)
Monster Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 5,637 Rep Power: 11823	I'll look for it while Im out today. It sounds right up my alley... ------------------------- *"Will it not be felt that Virtue, however beautiful, becomes the worst of all attitudes when it is found too feeble to contend with Vice..."* __________________ ------------------------- &quot;I would NEVER call a retarded person a retard. Retard is what you call your friends when theyre acting retarded.&quot; - Michael Scott &quot;I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.&quot; -- Robert Dawkins

03-02-2005, 11:51 AM	#59 (permalink)
archive_Bjaarki Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 3,673 Rep Power: 9540	As a scientist myself, I've come to appreciate that science can function as a kind of "God" itself, as an object of veneration, complete trust, and as an arbiter of "the truth." "Science," things that are "scientific," take on a kind of halo, they become beyond dispute because they have been "proven scientifically." I know, also as a scientist myself, that to venerate science in that way is an error. It is an error because science is nothing more than a human creation, a method about which scientists themselves often disagree, and a body of "facts" that are inextricably linked to their geographic and temporal origin. There really IS NO "SCIENCE," and to pretend there is is to reify a mere human conceit. Compare, say, the science of 21st century America, with the science of 21st century China, much less the science of 19th century Germany. The science of these different times and places bears little more resemblance than does their art. My take home point here is not to substitute one God for another God. At least not a God as full of flaws and prone to error as the western scientific tradition. A useful tool? Certainly. But only that. It can supply the "how," but not the "why." For that, you must consult the spirit, the God, within you. Bjaarki First, say to yourself what you would become. Then, do what you have to do. __________________ First, say to yourself what you would become. Then, do what you have to do.

03-03-2005, 09:30 AM	#60 (permalink)
archive_Mr. Nobody Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 5,080 Rep Power: 11841	<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As a scientist myself, I've come to appreciate that science can function as a kind of "God" itself <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Absolutely. I have voiced that thought before. And I am one most guilty of making that mistake, of confusing science as God, a given, an absolute truth. Not anymore. I know science only serves as a tool, as the journey to enlightenment. Without that tool, without that attempt for total knowledge, without science's ability to lift myself out of self absorption, without this most objective effort of explaining the systems of this reality, there can be no peace for me. Science is only the teaching of the existing, a school of deductions, a tool to read, not text itself. I understand that. I understand that science can not explain the origins, the reasons, the meanings of reality. However, it lets me think outside the box, it lets me look at our most fundamental questions from different angles, it lets me examine the validity and the logic of my questions. And for that I am eternally thankful. We have evolved to recognize patterns. This ability has served us well. It has made us a most successful hunter and secured our survival for eons, but at a price. The ability to recognize and memorize a design and adapt quickly has also brought the realization of mortality and self awareness. It was a gradual evolution, not something bestowed upon us by God, but an unfortunate outcome of ever increasing intelligence. You can see the same happening in our closest relative, the chimp. He has limited intelligence and with that some of the benefits and trappings of self awareness. So, what does that mean? What am I trying to say? I have said it before and I'll say it again: Maybe there is no grand design, no superior intelligence, no ultimate intent, no reason, no judgment, no good, no evil just self preservation. Maybe all this cosmos is, is a dance of matter and energy in a infinite struggle against entropy. Maybe all this realm is, is the opposite of eternal nothingness in the ultimate symmetry of reality __________________________________________________ __________________________________ Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. Benjamin Franklin Disclaimer: Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner. The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

02-28-2005, 12:12 PM	#51 (permalink)
macdaddy Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 222 Rep Power: 4033	What may be known about God is plain, because God has made it plain. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made.

02-28-2005, 06:44 PM	#52 (permalink)
Guest Posts: n/a	wow almost 1000 views

03-01-2005, 04:39 PM	#54 (permalink)
PQ Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 744 Rep Power: 4141	LOL Bjaarki, but you have to admit, in the gym with Prodigy or Crystal method pounding in your brain you DO feel like God, or a god at least... But back to topic...I'm not sure what I believe to tell you the truth. But I think, metaphorically speaking of course, that demons and angels exist right here...and we, through our actions, make our own heaven or hell...as for the unknown, it is simply that...unknown.

03-02-2005, 06:03 AM	#56 (permalink)
PQ Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 744 Rep Power: 4141	Monster, have you read "The Family" by Mario Puzo? It's a romp with the infamous Borgias...from your post, I think you'd dig it!

03-02-2005, 07:31 AM	#58 (permalink)
macdaddy Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 222 Rep Power: 4033	Monster, you present a great argument against religion, with which I agree. When greedy people run the show and only have their best interests in mind, it will pervert the best of ideas, or ideologies. But it's not so much an argument against God.

03-07-2005, 03:07 PM	#61 (permalink)
archive_Bjaarki Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 3,673 Rep Power: 9540	This thread seems to have slowed down. I think, considering the number of posts and views, the interest of the topic to members, and especially Mr. N's mini-dissertations scattered throughout, this thread should go to the Hall of Fame. Bjaarki __________________ First, say to yourself what you would become. Then, do what you have to do.

03-07-2005, 03:34 PM	#62 (permalink)
archive_Ulter Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 15,388 Rep Power: 21808	I would agree with you except that the thread is against the rules. It's like putting Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame. __________________

03-07-2005, 03:44 PM	#63 (permalink)
Guest Posts: n/a	lol at Ulter but he makes sense we got lucky on the topic on other boards in certainly would have not unfolded as nicely as this one did

03-07-2005, 04:36 PM	#64 (permalink)
archive_Bjaarki Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 3,673 Rep Power: 9540	That's very funny, Ulter. I often had that thought - no sex, no religion in the OT forum - when reading and posting to this thread. But that rule applies to the OT forum, not to the HOF, right? Can't we have a religion thread in the HOF? We've certainly had some pretty deep philosophical ones. I should know because I started several. I don't think there's any rule prohibiting this thread from the HOF. But even if there were, the bottom line is that this is a fine thread. Lots of people posted very sincere, very spiritual things, and others posted hard-headed empirical views. But the discussion was very nice, animated but respectful, insightful, perceptive ... exactly what we would like the public to see when they hear about gear and start conjuring images of Neanderthals in their heads. Gearheads think about this stuff, too. I think that's fine, and that it should be honored. I'm just a lil' ol' member here, but if it were my decision, I would put this thread in the Hall of Fame. It was fun, either way. Bjaarki First, say to yourself what you would become. Then, do what you have to do. __________________ First, say to yourself what you would become. Then, do what you have to do.

03-07-2005, 07:09 PM	#65 (permalink)
archive_Mr. Nobody Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 5,080 Rep Power: 11841	Well, I could care less where this post goes but appreciate the kind words from a fellow thinker, even if he is wrong . <BLOCKQUOTE class="-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> 1) Sex - no pics,links or graphic discussion of sexual material will be tolerated. If you wouldn't allow your 13 year old daughter to read it, don't post it 2) Race - no need to elaborate 3) Religion** - there's wars over 2000 years old already, we don't need any here 4) E-mail/Private message - there is no need for " joeblow check you P.M " topics, they are a waste of board space and will not be tolerated as stand alone posts <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Correct me if I am wrong, but this post was not about religion. It was about spirituality and deep, personal beliefs....BIG DIFFERENCE. Furthermore, I got the feeling, that we all agreed about religion being the root of the problem instead of the solution (or was it just me ) And I concure, it was much fun..... __________________________________________________ __________________________________ Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. Benjamin Franklin Disclaimer: Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner. The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

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