Veteran's Consensus Statement on Post-Cycle Recovery

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

Veterans’ Consensus Statement on Post-Cycle Recovery - Revised

Original - unrevised statement

Anabolic/androgenic steroids are used widely in human and veterinary medicine, and are increasingly useful to the training methods of elite athletes. Benefits of the intelligent use of anabolic/androgenic steroids include enhanced quality of life and the promise of greater longevity, as well as marked improvements in body composition, strength, and stamina. However, anabolic/androgenic steroids produce their benefits by interfering with the endocrine system, a complex system of glands and brain structures that are normally kept in an homeostatic state of balance by the action of countless subtle, sensitive feedback mechanisms. The perturbation in normal endocrine function that is introduced by the use of anabolic/androgenic steroids can, through these feedback mechanisms, elicit compensatory endocrine responses, such as up- or down-regulation of essential enzyme stores or of receptor molecules, in order to maintain homeostasis. When these compensatory mechanisms persist into the post-cycle era after steroids have been withdrawn, unwanted effects can occur, such as fatigue, depression, loss of sex drive, loss of size and strength, and others. Fortunately, both prophylactic and restorative measures that the athlete can take in this situation are now fairly well known.

Many athletes have agreed that androgenic/anabolic steroids render appreciable gains for a limited time only. As said gain period differs between individuals, this CS will refrain from any recommendations to the optimum time of such therapy but discuss methods of restoring optimum normal endocrine function.

It should be noted that the longer a cycle lasts past the eight-week mark, the harder testosterone recovery becomes. The best way of gauging ones hormonal milieu and planning compensatory measures is to have blood tests done prior to and following cessation of AAS therapy. For the purpose of this Consensus Statement and the awareness of a lack of testing athletes, the following universally accepted post cycle hormone status is assumed:

a) Luteinizing Hormone (LH): low to none, Luteinizing Hormone Releasing Hormone (LHRH): low to none
b) Testosterone (T): low
c) Estrogen (E): high
d) Prolactin: high
e) Cortisol (C): high
f) Red Blood Cell (RBC) count: falling


While all of these hormone measurements are assumed on the low end of the scale, biochemical individuality will ultimately determine where a person’s levels fall. So assumption of low to substandard levels will not always be true in everyone.


1. What are the goals of testosterone recovery?

The return of hormonal balance is but one goal of this program. To create a transitional period of minimized muscle loss and sustained and/or increased motivation is another.


2. Detailed Recommendations

If the athlete is ready to come off and is still taking long acting esters he shall switch to short acting drugs in order to have complete control of exogenous hormone levels. A “waiting period” for esters to clear is unacceptable and provides for a slow slide into the post cycle catabolic state. This period of short acting supplements shall last for a minimum of 2 weeks.

a) Luteinizing Hormone and shrunken testicles

H C G
If the testis have atrophied, the introduction of H C G at 1000iu x 14 days is necessary. To prevent this atrophy from happening, the use of H C G at 1000iu x 7 days every fourth week of the cycle is recommended. This will provide exogenous LH and must only be used to restore/keep proper testicle size.
Week 1-2: H C G, 1000iu ed
C l o m i d
The practice of using Clomid at 50mg throughout the cycle or 100mg a day for 3-5 days every 4th week has been used successfully to maintain proper testicle size

b) Low testosterone and lack of motivation

The introduction of exogenous hormones to compensate for the low endogenous testosterone levels may help to keep loss of drive, strength and muscle at bay but may also slow the recovery process. The below drugs were chosen for their limited impact on the HPTA

D i a n a b o l
Studies and empirical evidence have shown Dianabol to be beneficial to keep Cortisol in check and provide some intermediate relief from the symptoms of low testosterone via an increase of dopamine, IGF-1, and Central Nervous System stimulation. The heightened dopamine will combat Prolactin and help raise the levels of endogenous Human Growth Hormone. Other studies point to a lack of LH suppression when taken first thing in the morning. It shall be noted that only a low dose is recommended in order to avoid further disruption of the HPTA
Week 1-6: 10mg dbol am, ed
A n d r o g e l
It’s a new drug and detailed studies are difficult to come by, however preliminary investigation has shown this drug to have little impact on the levels of LH in eugonadal patients due to its slow release.
Week 1-4: 50mg Androgel am, ed

c) High Estrogen and suppressed Hypothalamus- Pituitary- Testicular- Axis (HPTA)

Estrogen acts as the primary messenger of testosterone production. Testosterone is aromatized into estrogen, which signals the Hypothalamus to stop producing the proper testosterone release hormones. Estrogen must be kept low.

A r i m i d e x
A powerful aromatize inhibitor shall be part of every cycle. For testosterone recovery it is used to keep the testosterone/ estrogen balance in favor of testosterone. It is also of help to keep any additionally occurring estrogen from dbol and Androgel low to none. Studies have shown a 54% increase of testosterone in eugonadal patients
Week 1-10: ½-1mg ed
C l o m i d
Universally accepted as THE testosterone recovery tool. It blocks estrogen from the HPTA and stimulates the production of LHRH. LHRH then initiates the production of LH, which in turn signals the testis (if not atrophied) to produce testosterone.
Week 3-5: 100mg ed
Week 6-8: 50mg ed

d) High Prolactin and suppressed HPTA

B r o m o c r i p t i n e
A low dose of this drug lowers Prolactin (another HPTA suppressor) and increases HGH in non-acremalic patients.
Week 1-5: 0.625mg every evening

e) High Cortisol, suppressed HPTA and catabolism

Cortisol is catabolic. It is the enemy of all anabolism and must be kept in check. While it is blocked when under the influence of AAS, it is free to attach to the Anabolic Receptors (AR) once the steroids leave. Due to this blockage Cortisol tends to accumulate and increase when on. A low level is desirable however since it is important for other vital functions such as control of inflammation. Balance is the key.

V i t a m i n C
At 3-5g before heavy workouts, it keeps the exercise induced rise of Cortisol in check
Always: 3-5g before workouts
D H E A
A useless pro-hormone as far as anabolism is concerned, this substance is great to keep Cortisol within normal levels. There is a correlation between high Cortisol and low DHEA levels.
Week 1-6: 150mg am and pm
D e x t r o s e a n d M a l to d e x t r i n
It is neither a supplement nor a drug, but these carbohydrates have a very high glycemic index and keep Cortisol levels low by increasing insulin. They also provide excellent energy for heavy workouts. In order to not gain unwanted fat, dextrose and/or Maltodextrin shall be ingested during your workout and with your post workout shake only.
Always: 100g with workout water and 100g with post workout shake

f) Red Blood Cell Count and Stamina

C r e a t i n e
The use of Creatine has shown to increase ATP metabolism and cellular water storage among many other things. This is very beneficial because it provides for heightened nutrient storage and a slight increase in anabolism as well as workout stamina. Perfect with dextrose/Maltodextrin.
Always: 5g with workout water and 10g with post workout shake
V i t a m i n B - 1 2 & I r o n
Prolongs the life of your RBC and may be beneficial for increased oxygen transport
Week1-8: 1,000mcg ed

Miscellaneous beneficial drugs, supplements and recommendations

Z i n c
Assists with testosterone production and is always low in weight lifting subjects. Do not consume with calcium for ease of absorption
Week1-8: 50mg ed
M a g n e s i u m
Has too many benefits for weight lifters to list
Week 1-8: 800mg every evening
V i t a m i n B - 6
Assists with testosterone production, keeps Prolactin in check and is very relaxing
Week 1-8: 200mg every evening
M e l a t o n i n
May improve sleep pattern and help increase HGH. With this supplement, the less you take the more it works.
Always: 1.5mg at nite
D e p r e n y l
Known as one of the most favorite life extension drug this dopamine enhancer provides anti-depressant properties as well as possible IGF-1 increase. Do not take with Bromocriptine.
Week 7 & 8: 5mg eod in the morning
W o r k o u t a n d c a l o r i c r e s t r i c t i o n
Workouts shall be brief and focus on retaining your newly gained strength. A power lift routine may be advantages at this stage. Calorie intake shall match expenditure; a calorie-restricted diet shall commence only upon complete recovery of natural testosterone production.


3. Final word

This program is based on empirical evidence, research and experimentation and represents the maximum effort to recover one’s testosterone production. Some of the above supplements and drugs may not be required or may not agree with every individual and advances in medicine may provide newer and more useful drugs for the testosterone recovery following steroid therapy.
Furthermore, it must be noted that a period of 8 weeks of abstinence from all drugs (vitamins and supplements excluded) is the minimum time recommended and that a blood test to assess actual testosterone recovery act as the only gauge for the timing of the next hormone therapy.

Anabolic/androgenic steroids wisely used have many benefits, but they produce their benefits by perturbing the natural course of endocrine function, something that can have consequences for the athlete in terms of enduring dysregulation of said endocrine function upon the cessation of anabolic use. Fortunately, both prophylactic and restorative measures that the athlete can take to restore endocrine function and prepare the way for the next cycle of anabolics are fairly well known. Problems and their solutions include (a) low levels of Luteinizing Hormone and shrunken testicles, treated by H C G, (b) low testosterone and lack of motivation, treated by Dianabol and Androgel morning applications, (c) high estrogen and suppressed Hypothalamus-Pituitary-Testicular Axis (HPTA) function, treated by Arimidex and Clomid, (d) high Prolactin and suppressed HPTA, treated by Bromocriptine, (e) high Cortisol, suppressed HPTA and catabolism, treated by Vitamin C, DHEA, dextrose and Maltodextrin, and (f) suppressed red blood cell count and reduced stamina, treated by Creatine, Vitamin B-12 and iron. In addition, a variety of miscellaneous beneficial drugs and supplements, such as zinc, magnesium, Vitamin B-6, Melatonin and Deprenyl can speed post-cycle recovery.



Well, there it is.
I want to thank Bjaarki for his contributions. Without him, it would sound and look very unrefined. Many thanks to TD as well;

Feel free to post any comments.

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[This message was edited by Mr. Nobody on 07-10-2003 at 01:01 PM.]

[This message was edited by Ulter on 07-15-2003 at 10:43 AM.]

[Monster]

You beautiful S.O.B., its fantastic.

If you could see me you would see a single tear running down my cheek.

Its concise, it covers every possible area of question, and the Final Word is a nice touch...

-------------------------
Monsterland Is Open Again!!! (dont say you werent warned...)

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
"Well, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is... never try."

[This message was edited by Monster on 07-10-2003 at 04:00 PM.]

this is os good I had to share it with other sites, but you guys are sighted in the title

=)

[archive_Ulter]

We are asking all the boards to participate. So you should share it by doing the same. Then any board that wants it can use it when it's finished. It may change several times during this consensus process.

OK i posted a link to this site at the top of the thread. I only posted it at STEROIDOLOGY

[Badatta2d]

Wow Looks very comprehensive. Very well written and easy enough to understand.

Job well done Mr N. Bjaarki and Others.

I look forward to Fonz and Macro's responses. If they can't beat it up, it's solid!

Attitude is Everything!!!

[nandi12]

I am actually in disagreement with much of the advice in that post. I would not use arimidex post cycle as I believe it will suppress SHBG, slowing recovery of total testosterone, the ultimate marker of how recovery is progressing. Aromatase inhibitors could lead to the accelerated development of atherosclerotic plaques as well. Not worth the health risk and potential impediment to recovery.

Prolactin is low post cycle because estrogen is low post cycle. Bromocriptine is not needed, and it may interfere with testicular steroidogenesis as well as cause a host of other health problems.

I would NEVER recommend androgel or dbol post cycle: this is completely undoing what you are trying to do: recover. This is nothing more than staying "on" permanently and pretending to be cycling.

this will be great, lets make threads at other sites to direct the discussion here

[archive_Ulter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OMEGAone:
this will be great, lets make threads at oher sites to direct the discussion here<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is only necessary because there is just no way to keep track of all the people contributing. For example Iced has posted a good comment on CEM but no one here is reading it and the writers can't incorporate it. We will have open registration for the next few days so people from the various boards can easily post.

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nandi12:
I am actually in disagreement with much of the advice in that post. I would not use arimidex post cycle as I believe it will suppress SHBG, slowing recovery of total testosterone, the ultimate marker of how recovery is progressing. Aromatase inhibitors could lead to the accelerated development of atherosclerotic plaques as well. Not worth the health risk and potential impediment to recovery.

Prolactin is low post cycle because estrogen is low post cycle. Bromocriptine is not needed, and it may interfere with testicular steroidogenesis as well as cause a host of other health problems.

I would NEVER recommend androgel or dbol post cycle: this is completely undoing what you are trying to do: recover. This is nothing more than staying "on" permanently and pretending to be cycling.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SHBG binds to testosterone lowering total testosterone, right? So why is suppressing SHBG is a bad thing.

A lot of AAS increase prolactin (tren to name an example), however we put in the disclaimer that that particular drug may not be needed.

Thats the first time I have heard that estrogen will be low follwing a cycle, all other reports, anectodal and emperical indicate increased estrogen.

Morning dbol and morning androgel are being used to keep the drop of testosterone in check for the first couple of weeks after the cycle to maintain motivation, sex drive and imune system. It may slow recovery as noted above. However emperical and anectodal evidence suggest minimum LH suppression
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2...286#8963019286
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2...1&m=6373079354
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2...807#8933093807
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2...095#9423084095
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2...944#2563034944
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2...732#3770966732

just to let you look at a few past posts and how we arrived at what we are talking about without having to repost everything.


.....btw I tried all of the above, as have other members

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[This message was edited by Mr. Nobody on 07-10-2003 at 03:23 PM.]

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

Also, I want to invite all agreeing members to contribute with anectodal or educated posts in favor as well, I dont want to sit here and have to defend this CS by myself.....not that I want to avoid being criticised....just keep the discussion even.....unfortunetly everybody knows about the quiet masses that are reluctant to step in....

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[archive_Ulter]

We are trying to get a consensus on recovery that as we've said in the past may not exist. The views expressed here are going to vary widely and that's good. If there are points that we can't find consensus on then those points will ALL be included as part of the statement.

[archive_Ulter]

I agree that the morning dbol method is very effective and although it prolongs recovery somewhat it also make it much more tollerable for many men. And recovery is possible while using it.
My E levels coming off were through the roof last time. It scared my doctor so much his office called me at home to talk about it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ulter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OMEGAone:
this will be great, lets make threads at oher sites to direct the discussion here<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is only necessary because there is just no way to keep track of all the people contributing. For example Iced has posted a good comment on CEM but no one here is reading it and the writers can't incorporate it. We will have open registration for the next few days so people from the various boards can easily post.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Makes perfect sense

the point is taken very well.

Out of a confined discussion specific to this board

the best minds and ideas so to speak can discuss, refute, and sythesize a better answer that will be much more thorough and comprehensive.

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

Nandi, I am sorry, please repost, I fucked up and deleted your post by accident in lieu of "answer with quote"

If you get back on this site, please view your own statement from the past in regards to tren-prolactin:

http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2...3&m=3163062394


Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[Stillgoing]

Excellent read. Funny though: if this was written by Mr. Nobody & Ulter: Post cycle article written by two guys on HRT!?!?!

[archive_Bjaarki]

This is pretty cool. I'm sitting here, smiling in pure pleasure at this idea that was formulated by Ulter, and executed by Mr. Nobody. This Veterans' Consensus Statement on Post-Cycle Recovery will be one of the most useful and informative things we've done on this board. Major props, Ulter and Mr. N.

What we need now is for some of the brothers with deeper reach on the biochemistry of things to come in and review this, critique it, and give Mr. N. some parts of the draft Consensus Statement that need revision. Then you need to incorporate the revisions, Mr. N. Don't feel that you need to please everybody - I don't know about this, but if Nandi is just plain wrong about the points he raised, then that's fine, pass them by - it's consensus, not unanymity, we're looking for.

Ulter, I think I would disagree with your suggestion, when there is divergence of view, to include all of the disparate views in the Consensus Statement. I think things we can't get fairly good agreement about we should just leave aside. Those things, whatever they might be - maybe the role of H C G in post-cycle recovery, or the use of bridging agents - should just be left as part of the rumor mill, unarticulated lore, since there is nothing authoritative yet to say about them. We want the CS to be definitive, even if it's scope is more limited than we would like.

Again, really excellent work. Everyone, keep doing what you're doing.

Bjaarki

... Then, do what you have to do.

[nandi12]

I did a 180 on tren and prolactin when I finally dug up the entire article as well as a couple of others and found that there was not a change in free thyroxine but only a drop in total thyroxine. All androgens cause a drop in total T4 because they lower thyroid binding globulin. Thyroid function remains normal however. So testosterone or any other AAS will give the false impression that thyroid function is impaired if only total T4 is measured.

Other studies have given variable and conflicting results as far as thyroid function goes. The paper by Alen et al noted a drop in free T4 and TSH, while a recent study of the effects of high dose methyltestosterone demonstrated an increase in free T4 and TSH (2).
Clearly more research needs to be done on the effects of AAS and the thyroid.


The paper cited below by Alen et al also looked at prolactin and observed that it rose during the cycle as etrogen from the aromatization of test increased, but plummeted after the cycle as estrogen crashed. So prolactin may rise during a cycle if test is used because the extra estrogen is elevating it.


This might be a good link to include in this thread. Most readers may be familiar with it already:

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/magazine/i7postcycle.html

Basically in my earlier thread I cited a couple of studies that showed post cycle that estrogen is depressed because testosterone is depresssed, and low test means low estrogen since the bulk of our estrogen comes from test aromatization.Since only the abstracts are available on medline, I will cite some data from the paper that I posted on CEM:

The authors performed a similar study that went for 12 weeks (1), a cycle more like what the average AAS user employs.

At the end of the cycle, test dropped from 37 nmol/l to 5 nmol/l (compared to precycle baseline of 21 nmol/l).

Estradiol dropped from a cycle high of 0.25 nmol/l to a post cycle low of 0.04 nmol/l. Baseline pre cycle was 0.08 nmol/l. Baseline LH was 6.8 U/l while 12 weeks after the cycle ended LH had risen to 8.0 U/l while test was still depressed at 14.6 nmol/l compared to a precycle level of 21.8 nmol/l.

So post cycle estrogen fell to half its precycle value.

Bill Llewellyn goes into this in the article I lnked to above from M & M:

It is important to understand that anti-estrogens alone do not do much to restore endogenous testosterone release after a cycle. Normally they only foster LH by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens, and we now see that LH rebounds quickly without help anyway. Plus, post cycle there is not an elevated level of estrogen for anti-estrogens to block, as testosterone (now suppressed) is a major substrate used for the synthesis of estrogens in men. Serum estrogen levels will actually be lower here as a result, not higher.



(1) Am J Sports Med 1987 Jul-Aug;15(4):357-61

Androgenic-anabolic steroid effects on serum thyroid, pituitary and steroid hormones in athletes.

Alen M, Rahkila P, Reinila M, Vihko R.

(2)Psychoneuroendocrinology 2003 Apr;28(3):317-31

Neuroendocrine and behavioral effects of high-dose anabolic steroid administration in male normal volunteers.

Daly RC, Su TP, Schmidt PJ, Pagliaro M, Pickar D, Rubinow DR.

[This message was edited by nandi12 on 07-10-2003 at 05:12 PM.]

[hhajdo]

I agree with Nandi12...

BTW here's another study about AS & thyroid:

Ingestion of Androgenic-Anabolic Steroids Induces Mild Thyroidal Impairment in Male Body Builders

ROMAN DEYSSIG AND MICHAEL WEISSEL
Third Medical University Clinic and L. Boltzmann Institute for Nuclear Medicine, A-1090 Vienna, Austria

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