Veteran's Consensus Statement on Post-Cycle Recovery

[SteelPreacher]

Should nolvadex stop after hcg if it was used last two weeks of cycle? Or should nolva and clomid be taken together?
Mr BMJ I also have had success this course with 25-50mg clomid intermittently throughout. I've done it every two to three weeks, three days each time, worked fairly well.


...and if they approach us I bury those cockroaches!
Put in your work, know your history and put that girl on staff!

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bjaarki:
Is there a revised draft yet, Mr. N?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My 2nd revision or 3rd draft is 9 posts up. I am still waiting for somebody to tell me on how to run HGH for recovery

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[This message was edited by Mr. Nobody on 07-21-2003 at 09:59 PM.]

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SteelPreacher:
Should nolvadex stop after hcg if it was used last two weeks of cycle? Or should nolva and clomid be taken together?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No need to take them together. Nolva is only needed to protect you from H C G gyno. If I am not mistaken then H C G in high doses can make your testis produce estrogen directly....and aromatase inhibitors wont help in that case...hence nolva.
Better solution: take H C G in low doses as described in CS and you wont need nolva.

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[Q]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Nobody:

I am still waiting for somebody to tell me on how to run HGH for recovery
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You should say saomething like:

If HGH or Insulin is being used they should be continued after the cessation of AAS to help maintain an anabolic environment until natural testosterone levels have reached a satisfactory level.

Q

[Fonz]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Nobody:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bjaarki:
Is there a revised draft yet, Mr. N?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My 2nd revision or 3rd draft is 9 posts up. I am still waiting for somebody to tell me on how to run HGH for recovery

_Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice._

[This message was edited by Mr. Nobody on 07-21-2003 at 09:59 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Max GH release(endogeneous is at night), so if you want to recover its best you use your GH in the morning, as to not blunt your own endo GH at night.

BTW, I'm still unsure wether to go with IGF-1 R3 Long or GH. Too many damn conflicting reports for the R3.

Fonz

"Great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about facts, and weak minds talk about people"

---- Fonz 6/2002

[DaMan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Nobody:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SteelPreacher:
Should nolvadex stop after hcg if it was used last two weeks of cycle? Or should nolva and clomid be taken together?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No need to take them together. Nolva is only needed to protect you from H C G gyno. If I am not mistaken then H C G in high doses can make your _testis_ produce estrogen directly....and aromatase inhibitors wont help in that case...hence nolva.
Better solution: take H C G in low doses as described in CS and you wont need nolva.

_Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice._<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem is that there are arguments FOR nolva use instead of clomid... and until those are resolved imho nolva should be in the CS since it is a CONSENSUS statement - omitting it would not be, well, consensus.

[archive_Ulter]

Which goes back to what I said earlier, and Bjaarki disagreed with, we have to have two courses of recovery. One with Clomid and one with Nolva. There is too much science supporting both and thousands of men who've used both.

[archive_Bjaarki]

I disagree with you plenty of times, bro, but never about Clo and Nolva. I never said jack about Clomid and Nolva. I said that the Consensus Statement should only include ideas on which there is, in fact, consensus. We should not have numerous competing views in the CS. That's not a CS. But if there is strong science supporting, as you say, two courses of recovery, one using Clo and one using Nolva, and the membership here agrees there's consensus on that, then that's fine, put both recovery courses in.

We should, though, move this along now. Mr. N, you need to give us a revised draft.

Bjaarki

... Then, do what you have to do.

[archive_Ulter]

You should read what I wrote again. I didn't say you even mentioned Nolva or Clomid.
I said before and I'll say now, that there are two schools of thought and that neither should be left out nor chosen one over the other. Even though there is no actual consensus.
Mr N will be away for a few days. He's having his sex change operation done this week.

[archive_Bjaarki]

Okay, Ulter. Glad to hear about Mr. N's little trip to Denmark. He's so slight and delicate, he'll definitely be happier as Mrs. Nobody. Just hope his wife and kids don't mind that they'll have one of those "I have two Mommies" kind of family.

I'm genuinely confused about this. Your post a couple of lines above make me wonder. Is it (1) that there is solid evidence that two incompatible alternatives - one involving the use of Clomid, the other involving the use of Nolvadex - are each, separately useful in post-cycle recovery, perhaps for different types of agents, or different types of users? If that's the case, both could be included in a CS. Or, is it (2) that there is one group of users who say Clo is useful and dismisses the use of Nolva, and another who swears that Nolva is the bomb and dismisses the use of Clo? That will be trickier, since there really is no consensus.

It had always been my intention to emulate NIH policy in developing these CS's. We'll depart from that quite a bit if the second situation above is the one that applies here. But ... no reason to assume we simply HAVE TO follow NIH guidelines. Maybe this will work, and anyway all the other info, that not involving Clo and Nolva, will be useful.

Email me an address for me to send a "Get Well Quick!" card to Mr. N, will you?

Bjaarki

... Then, do what you have to do.

[SteelPreacher]

I've just decided to carry my nolva a bit past my HCG then drop it and start clomid. Dbol starts after clomid. Figure this way I get the best of both worlds. What do you guys think?

We haven't talked about p7 much when would that be most affective to throw in?


...and if they approach us I bury those cockroaches!
Put in your work, know your history and put that girl on staff!

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

O.k....If you use nolva in lieu of clomid, why cant we just include a line stating that fact...whats the poroblem with that?
Since I never did nolva, somebody please tell me average dosage requirements.
Bjaarki and Ulter: You missunderstood, I had a penis reduction done....my wife got tired of being ripped apart, so I had it reduced to 12"

HGH, I will add at 2iu 10am and 2iu at 4pm for week 1-8 if desired

Also, if I add the above can we consider it finished?

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[archive_Ulter]

Yes that would finish it. Nolva is 20mg/day.

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

Below find FINAL DRAFT this CS:

Veterans’ Consensus Statement on Post-Cycle Recovery

Anabolic/androgenic steroids are used widely in human and veterinary medicine, and are increasingly useful to the training methods of elite athletes. Benefits of the intelligent use of anabolic/androgenic steroids include enhanced quality of life and the promise of greater longevity, as well as marked improvements in body composition, strength, and stamina. However, anabolic/androgenic steroids produce their benefits by interfering with the endocrine system, a complex system of glands and brain structures that are normally kept in an homeostatic state of balance by the action of countless subtle, sensitive feedback mechanisms. The perturbation in normal endocrine function that is introduced by the use of anabolic/androgenic steroids can, through these feedback mechanisms, elicit compensatory endocrine responses, such as up- or down-regulation of essential enzyme stores or of receptor molecules, in order to maintain homeostasis. When these compensatory mechanisms persist into the post-cycle era after steroids have been withdrawn, unwanted effects can occur, such as fatigue, depression, loss of sex drive, loss of size and strength, and others. Fortunately, both prophylactic and restorative measures that the athlete can take in this situation are now fairly well known.

Many athletes have agreed that androgenic/anabolic steroids render appreciable gains for a limited time only. As said gain period differs between individuals, this CS will refrain from any recommendations to the optimum time of such therapy but discuss methods of restoring optimum normal endocrine function.

It should be noted that the longer a cycle lasts past the eight-week mark, the harder testosterone recovery becomes. The best way of gauging ones hormonal milieu and planning compensatory measures is to have blood tests done prior to and following cessation of AAS therapy. For the purpose of this Consensus Statement and the awareness of a lack of testing athletes, the following universally accepted post cycle hormone status is assumed:

a) Luteinizing Hormone (LH): low to none, Luteinizing Hormone Releasing Hormone (LHRH): low to none
b) Testosterone (T): low
c) Estrogen (E): high in relation to T
d) Cortisol (C): high
e) Red Blood Cell (RBC) count: falling


While all of these hormone measurements are assumed on the low end of the scale, biochemical individuality will ultimately determine where a person’s levels fall. So assumption of low to substandard levels will not always be true in everyone.


1. What are the goals of testosterone recovery?

The return of hormonal balance is but one goal of this program. To create a transitional period of minimized muscle loss and sustained and/or increased motivation is another.


2. Detailed Recommendations

If the athlete is ready to come off and is still taking long acting esters he shall switch to short acting drugs in order to have complete control of exogenous hormone levels. A “waiting period” for esters to clear is unacceptable and provides for a slow slide into the post cycle catabolic state. This period of short acting supplements shall last for a minimum of 2 weeks.

a) Luteinizing Hormone and shrunken testicles

H C G
If the testis have atrophied, the introduction of H C G at 1000iu x 14 days is necessary. To prevent this atrophy from happening, the use of H C G at 1000iu x 7 days every fourth week of the AAS cycle is recommended. This will provide exogenous LH and must only be used to restore/keep proper testicle size.
Week 1-2: H C G, 1000iu ed
C l o m i d
The practice of using Clomid at 50mg throughout the AAS cycle or 100mg a day for 3-5 days every 4th week has been used successfully to maintain proper testicle size

b) Low testosterone and lack of motivation

The introduction of exogenous hormones to compensate for the low endogenous testosterone levels may help to keep loss of drive, strength and muscle at bay but may also slow the recovery process. The below drug and application was chosen for its limited impact on the HPTA

D i a n a b o l
Studies and empirical evidence have shown Dianabol to be beneficial to keep Cortisol in check and provide some intermediate relief from the symptoms of low testosterone via an increase of dopamine, IGF-1, and Central Nervous System stimulation. The heightened dopamine will combat Prolactin and help raise the levels of endogenous Human Growth Hormone. Other studies point to a lack of LH suppression when taken first thing in the morning. It shall be noted that only a low dose upon rising is recommended in order to avoid further disruption of the HPTA
Week 1-6: 10mg dbol am, ed

c) High Estrogen and suppressed Hypothalamus- Pituitary- Testicular- Axis (HPTA)

Estrogen acts as the primary messenger of testosterone production. Testosterone is aromatized into estrogen, which signals the Hypothalamus to stop producing the proper testosterone release hormones. Estrogen must be kept low.

A r i m i d e x
A powerful aromatize inhibitor shall be part of every cycle. For testosterone recovery it is used to keep the testosterone/ estrogen balance in favor of testosterone. It is also of help to keep any additionally occurring estrogen from dbol and Androgel low to none. Studies have shown a 54% increase of testosterone in eugonadal patients
Week 1-10: ½-1mg ed
C l o m i d
Universally accepted as THE testosterone recovery tool. It blocks estrogen from the HPTA and stimulates the production of LHRH. LHRH then initiates the production of LH, which in turn signals the testis (if not atrophied) to produce testosterone.
Week 3-5: 100mg ed
Week 6-8: 50mg ed
N o l v a d e x
A volume of research and empirical evidence suggest the usefulness of this estrogen blocker for recovery. Its action is very similar to Clomid but may be better suited for individuals who experience side effects from Clomid.
Week 1-8: 20mg ed

d) High Cortisol, suppressed HPTA and catabolism

Cortisol is catabolic. It is the enemy of all anabolism and must be kept in check. While it is blocked when under the influence of AAS, it is free to attach to the Anabolic Receptors (AR) once the steroids leave. Due to this blockage Cortisol tends to accumulate and increase when on. A low level is desirable however since it is important for other vital functions such as control of inflammation. Balance is the key.

V i t a m i n C
At 3-5g before heavy workouts, it keeps the exercise induced rise of Cortisol in check
Always: 3-5g before workouts
D H E A
A useless pro-hormone as far as anabolism is concerned, this substance is great to keep Cortisol within normal levels. There is a correlation between high Cortisol and low DHEA levels.
Week 1-6: 150mg am and pm
H u m a l o g
It is well known that insulin possesses powerful anti Cortisol/anabolic properties, specially when used at times when Cortisol is high, such as early morning and post workout.
It is of utmost importance to be educated about insulin and its proper use. However, this CS defers to other available research material for more detailed recommendations and cautionary measures.
A minimum of 10g of dextrose/Maltodextrin per iu with a high carb/mixed glycemic index meal 45 min after insulin injection is suggested as a rough guide line for Humalog use only.
Perfect with dextrose/malto and Creatine.
Week 1-5: 10iu am and 10iu post workout
Caution: DO NOT EXCEED THESE RECOMMENDATIONS
D e x t r o s e a n d M a l to d e x t r i n
It is neither a supplement nor a drug, but these carbohydrates have a very high glycemic index and keep Cortisol levels low by increasing endogenous insulin or keep blood sugar normal when used with exogenous insulin. They also provide excellent energy for heavy workouts. In order to not gain unwanted fat, dextrose and/or maltodextrin shall be ingested during your workout and with your post workout shake only.
Always: 100g with workout water and 100g with post workout shake

e) Red Blood Cell Count and Stamina

E P O
Causes the bone marrow to increase red blood cell production and may have anabolic, fat burning and rejuvenating benefits.
It is of utmost importance to be educate about EPO and its proper use. However, this CS defers to other available research material for more detailed recommendations and cautionary measures.
Week 8: 500-1,000iu ed for 7-10 days
Caution: DO NOT EXCEED THESE RECOMMENDATIONS
C r e a t i n e
The use of Creatine has shown to increase ATP metabolism and cellular water storage among many other things. This is very beneficial because it provides for heightened nutrient storage and a slight increase in anabolism as well as workout stamina. Perfect with dextrose/maltodextrin/.
Always: 5g with workout water and 10g with post workout shake
V i t a m i n B - 1 2 & I r o n
Prolongs the life of your RBC and may be beneficial for increased oxygen transport
Week1-8: 1,000mcg ed

Miscellaneous beneficial drugs, supplements and recommendations

H G H
Administration of exogenous HGH has been shown to help maintain an anabolic environment until natural testosterone levels have reached a satisfactory level.
Week 1-8: 2iu at mid morning and 2iu at mid afternoon
Z i n c
Assists with testosterone production and is always low in weight lifting subjects. Do not consume with calcium for ease of absorption
Week1-8: 50mg ed
M a g n e s i u m
Has too many benefits for weight lifters to list
Week 1-8: 800mg every evening
V i t a m i n B - 6
Assists with testosterone production, keeps Prolactin in check and is very relaxing
Week 1-8: 200mg every evening
M e l a t o n i n
May improve sleep pattern and help increase HGH. With this supplement, the less you take the more it works.
Always: 1.5mg at nite
D e p r e n y l
Known as one of the most favorite life extension drug this dopamine enhancer provides anti-depressant properties as well as possible IGF-1 increase. Do not take with Bromocriptine.
Week 7 & 8: 5mg eod in the morning
E p h e d r a
Ephedrine HCL and related products such as Clenbuteral or Nor-ephedrine (NYC) may offer limited anti catabolic and workout stimulating benefits.
Use as preferred, but do not combine with insulin due to similarities of hypoglycemic and Eph induced over stimulation episodes
N o o t r o p i c s
A course of these "smart drugs" may be beneficial to improve blood flow to the brain and HP. No specific drug, combination of drugs and/or drug course recommendations shall be made due to varying individual preferrences
W o r k o u t a n d c a l o r i c r e s t r i c t i o n
Workouts shall be brief and focus on retaining your newly gained strength after a week long layoff. A power lift routine may be advantages at this stage. Calorie intake shall match expenditure; a calorie-restricted diet shall commence only upon complete recovery of natural testosterone production.


3. Final word

This program is based on empirical evidence, research and experimentation and represents the maximum effort to recover one’s testosterone production. Some of the above supplements and drugs may not be required or may not agree with every individual and advances in medicine may provide newer and more useful drugs for the testosterone recovery following steroid therapy.
Furthermore, it must be noted that a period of 8 weeks of abstinence from all drugs (vitamins and supplements excluded) is the minimum time recommended and that a blood test to assess actual testosterone recovery act as the only gauge for the timing of the next hormone therapy.

Anabolic/androgenic steroids wisely used have many benefits, but they produce their benefits by perturbing the natural course of endocrine function, something that can have consequences for the athlete in terms of enduring dysregulation of said endocrine function upon the cessation of anabolic use. Fortunately, both prophylactic and restorative measures that the athlete can take to restore endocrine function and prepare the way for the next cycle of anabolics are fairly well known. Problems and their solutions include (a) low levels of Luteinizing Hormone and shrunken testicles, treated by H C G & Clomid, (b) low testosterone and lack of motivation, treated by Dianabol morning applications, (c) high estrogen and suppressed Hypothalamus-Pituitary-Testicular Axis (HPTA) function, treated by Arimidex and Clomid, (d)high Cortisol, suppressed HPTA and catabolism, treated by Vitamin C, DHEA, insulin, dextrose and Maltodextrin, and (e) suppressed red blood cell count and reduced stamina, treated by EPO, Creatine, Vitamin B-12 and iron. In addition, a variety of miscellaneous beneficial drugs and supplements, such as HGH, zinc, magnesium, Vitamin B-6, Melatonin, Deprenyl and misc. Nootropics can speed post-cycle recovery.


Disclaimer:
Anabolic Fitness is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is STRICTLY FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSE ONLY and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.