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01-27-2003, 06:53 PM
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#26 (permalink) |
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Senior Member
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Bjaarki,
I can see your reason for not wanting to list SPECIFIC AASes with their respective sides. However in that case I would at least add a sentence implying that these sides apply to SOME ASes, not all in general (as most people who lump it under the umbrella "steroids" think), and that some are very harsh while some are benign enough to administer to HIV patients and children. I think that may give it a more balanced view; if this ever becomes gospel I don't want any of my future wives to wave it in front of me and tell me that my "midlife-crisis" ox @ 40mg, test @ 350mg stack will GUARANTEE to give me kidney disease. Just my $0.02. |
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01-27-2003, 06:57 PM
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#27 (permalink) |
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Oh and another thing, maybe a word or two about the necessity of bloodwork to find out what ancillaries at what doses are needed and what side effects are actually taking place.
I for one found out that the 0.5mg/Dostinex I took E3.5D suppressed my prolactin levels to zero (!!!) on fina, which is bad, and 1mg Arimidex still left my E2 at 2x its pre-cycle value, which taught me to reduce my Dostinex and switch to another anti-e. [This message was edited by DaMan on 01-28-2003 at 01:23 PM.] |
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01-27-2003, 09:28 PM
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#28 (permalink) |
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Super Moderator
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Great job Bjarkki et al. I really like it and have little to add.
Initially reading it I was going to make a remark about the singling out of GHB, but now that others have spoken before me, i'll shut my mouth. Interesting that as far as psychological disorders you left out self image disorders, something which all of us suffer from in some degree or another, but which in more severe cases i've personally seen people ruin themselves and their health with their never ending use of huge amounts of anabolics. Might want to add in anyone suffering from episodic dyscontrol, or intermittent explosive disorder might want to think about staying away. Or perhaps those with extra Y chromosomes? LOL!!! I think some people have gone off track here, contraindications: factors that render the commencement of a drug/treatment inadviseable. This has nothing to do with high estrogen levels cause by anabolics, or the amount of food you eat. As i said, not much to add, very well done!! 
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01-28-2003, 05:28 PM
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#29 (permalink) |
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Senior Member
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These are all good points, gentlemen. Give me a day or two and I'll edit the original threadstarter to show an ammended text version.
The thing with GHB developed from a misreading I had of Macro's notes to me about this CS, before we posted it. Macro was a bit cryptic. I thought he wanted GHB singled out. Guess not. I don't have any agenda here about GHB at all. I don't even know WTF it is, to be perfectly honest with you. I'll take it out. We'll make the changes I already indicated, and I guess I'll follow E2's recommendation and put something in the Psychological Contraindications section about Body Dysmporhpic Disorder, to the effect that gear use may not provide relief and could lead to an abuse pattern. I'd been shy of doing that, since, when BDD has come up before, I've been one of the few supporters of its legitimacy. But, if I have a certifiable gearhead maniac like E2 signed on to the idea, I'll be glad to include it. I don't think Antisocial Personality would work well, a point made by someone else. Actually, Narcissistic Personality Disorder is more of a problem with some bodybuilders, but it would be pointless, for a million reasons, to discuss that here. Like I say, gimme a day or two and you can help me with a new draft. Thanks, everyone, for your thoughtful comments. Bjaarki ... Then, do what you have to do.
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First, say to yourself what you would become. Then, do what you have to do. |
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01-29-2003, 11:20 AM
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#32 (permalink) |
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I don't really have anything to add. I think these statements are great. I let my GF read the other one on usage. Some girl was telling my GF about her boyfriend using. My GF came home and told me that when the girl was talking to her, all she could think was that the boyfriend did not fit the AF usage guidlines
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01-30-2003, 06:54 AM
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#33 (permalink) |
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Moderator and Future CRNA
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As always Bjaarki, little can I add to your well thought out CS. The only thing I would like to see added is something about GI disorders or the like.
Watching the CS threads grow is fascinating to me. Take Good Care, Cg |
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01-30-2003, 11:00 AM
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#34 (permalink) |
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The Consensus Statement has been revised. I edited the text in the threadstarter, so you will find the revised draft at the top of the thread. Thanks to you all for your many helpful comments. Post any additional thoughts you think necessary, and I will revise again.
Be well. Bjaarki ... Then, do what you have to do.
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First, say to yourself what you would become. Then, do what you have to do. |
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01-30-2003, 02:12 PM
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#35 (permalink) |
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I still think Sociopaths should be included in the "do not take Juice" category. Although it is not technically a "disorder", I don't think anyone wants someone who has absolutely no remorse, literally 0.0 regret/remorse/conscience, all jacked up on 5 grams of Test with some Halo on the side.
 and if they approach us..I..I..I bury those cockroaches!
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I can make you a celebrity overnight. Winners see problems as just another way to prove themselves! D.T. |
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01-30-2003, 03:14 PM
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#36 (permalink) |
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Super Moderator
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Bjaarki—
A common oversight of many drug users is the synergetic effect that results from the simultaneous use of several different drugs. While bodybuilders are certainly aware of this aspect of steroids, it is not unusual for them to assume that only the anabolic effects of the drugs are augmented in this fashion. Indeed, the negative impact of two different drugs used together almost always outweighs the simple addition of the negative impacts of each drug as exhibited by their individual use. Some examples pertinent to the bodybuilder would include drugs that might augment a steroid’s impact on the liver. It is common knowledge among bodybuilders that the drug stanozolol exerts stress on the liver, and in fact, most users of this compound are familiar with certain preventative measures that can reduce this negative impact. However, certain OTC drugs that do not in and of themselves exhibit a negative impact on the liver can, when taken with a steroid such as stanozolol, render the liver less able to withstand the impact of the drug. An example would be something that inhibits the enzyme that helps break down stanozolol. Most people on the board know to avoid obvious bad combos like MDMA/winstrol, which quickly devastate the liver much faster than either would if taken by itself. But there are many drugs that are fairly common that inhibit important enzymes without necessarily demonstrating a dramatic impact on the liver. I have included for you a table that lists a fairly extensive array of drugs that inhibit or induce various liver enzymes. Perhaps you would want to peruse this and include some of the data in your consensus statement project. SUBSTRATES 1A2 2B6 2C19 2C9 2D6 2E1 3A4,5,7 amitriptyline caffeine clomipramine clozapine cyclobenzaprine (Flexeril®) estradiol fluvoxamine haloperidol imipramine N-DeMe mexiletine naproxen ondansetron phenacetin=> acetaminophen =>NAPQI propranolol riluzole ropivacaine tacrine theophylline verapamil (R)warfarin zileuton zolmitriptan bupropion cyclophosphamide ifosfamide Proton Pump Inhibitors: lansoprazole omeprazole pantoprazole E-3810 Anti-epileptics: diazepam=>Nor phenytoin(O) S-mephenytoin phenobarbitone amitriptyline citalopram clomipramine cyclophosphamide hexobarbital imipramine N-DeME indomethacin R-mephobarbital moclobemide nelfinavir nilutamide primidone progesterone proguanil propranolol teniposide R-warfarin=>8-OH NSAIDs: diclofenac ibuprofen meloxicam S-naproxen=>Nor piroxicam suprofen Oral Hypoglycemic Agents: tolbutamide glipizide Angiotensin II Blockers: losartan irbesartan amitriptyline celecoxib fluoxetine fluvastatin glyburide phenytoin=>4-OH rosiglitazone tamoxifen torsemide S-warfarin Beta Blockers: carvedilol S-metoprolol propafenone timolol Antidepressants: amitriptyline clomipramine desipramine imipramine paroxetine Antipsychotics: haloperidol perphenazine risperidone=>9OH thioridazine alprenolol amphetamine bufuralol chlorpheniramine chlorpromazine codeine (=>O-desMe) debrisoquine dexfenfluramine dextromethorphan encainide flecainide fluoxetine fluvoxamine lidocaine metoclopramide methoxyamphetamine mexiletine nortriptyline minaprine ondansetron perhexiline phenacetin phenformin propranolol quanoxan sparteine tamoxifen tramadol venlafaxine Anesthetics: enflurane halothane isoflurane methoxyflurane sevoflurane acetaminophen =>NAPQI aniline benzene chlorzoxazone ethanol N,N-dimethyl formamide theophylline =>8-OH Macrolide antibiotics: clarithromycin erythromycin (not 3A5) NOT azithromycin Anti-arrhythmics: quinidine=>3-OH (not 3A5) Benzodiazepines: alprazolam diazepam=>3OH midazolam triazolam Immune Modulators: cyclosporine tacrolimus (FK506) HIV Antivirals: indinavir nelfinavir ritonavir saquinavir Prokinetic: cisapride Antihistamines: astemizole chlorpheniramine terfenidine Calcium Channel Blockers: amlodipine diltiazem felodipine lercanidipine nifedipine nisoldipine nitrendipine verapamil HMG CoA Reductase Inhibitors: atorvastatin cerivastatin lovastatin NOT pravastatin simvastatin Steroid 6beta-OH: estradiol hydrocortisone progesterone testosterone Miscellaneous: alfentanyl buspirone cafergot caffeine=>TMU cocaine dapsone codeine- N-demethylation dextromethorphan fentanyl finasteride haloperidol irinotecan LAAM lidocaine methadone odanestron pimozide propranolol quinine salmeterol sildenafil sirolimus tamoxifen taxol terfenadine trazodone vincristine zaleplon zolpidem INHIBITORS(Ki) 1A2 2B6 2C19 2C9 2D6 2E1 3A4,5,7 amiodarone cimetidine fluoroquinolones fluvoxamine furafylline interferon? methoxsalen mibefradil ticlopidine thiotepa cimetidine felbamate fluoxetine fluvoxamine indomethacin ketoconazole lansoprazole modafinil omeprazole paroxetine probenicid ticlopidine topiramate amiodarone fluconazole fluvastatin fluvoxamine isoniazid lovastatin paroxetine phenylbutazone probenicid sertraline sulfamethoxazole sulfaphenazole teniposide trimethoprim zafirlukast amiodarone buproprion celecoxib chlorpromazine chlorpheniramine cimetidine clomipramine cocaine doxorubicin fluoxetine halofantrine red-haloperidol levomepromazine metoclopramide methadone Error! Hyperlink reference not valid. moclobemide paroxetine quinidine ranitidine ritonavir sertraline terbinafine diethyl- dithiocarbamate disulfiram HIV Antivirals: delaviridine indinavir nelfinavir ritonavir saquinavir amiodarone NOT azithromycin cimetidine ciprofloxacin clarithromycin diethyl- dithiocarbamate diltiazem erythromycin fluconazole fluvoxamine gestodene grapefruit juice itraconazole ketoconazole mifepristone nefazodone norfloxacin norfluoxetine mibefradil verapamil INDUCERS 1A2 2B6 2C19 2C9 2D6 2E1 3A,4,5,7 broccoli brussel sprouts char-grilled meat insulin methyl cholanthrene modafinil nafcillin beta- naphthoflavone omeprazole tobacco phenobarbital p450ref7.html - 2B6phenytoinrifampin carbamazepine norethindrone NOT pentobarbital prednisone rifampin rifampin secobarbital dexamethasone rifampin ethanol isoniazid HIV Antivirals: efavirenz nevirapine barbiturates carbamazepine glucocorticoids modafinil phenobarbital phenytoin rifampin St. John's wort troglitazone rifabutin GENETICS 1A2 2B6 2C19 2C9 2D6 2E1 3A4,5,7 Chromosome 15 Chromosome 19 Chromosome 10 Chromosome 10 Chromosome 22 Chromosome 10 Chromosome 7 N/A Polymorphic Polymorphic Polymorphic Polymorphic N/A N/A N/A 3-4% Caucasians PMs 3-5% Caucasian PMs , 15-20% Asian PMs 1-3% Caucasian PMs 5-10% Caucasian PMs N/A N/A |
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01-31-2003, 03:17 PM
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#38 (permalink) |
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Senior Member
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SP, I'll think about your idea, but I can't promise anything. It's a lot more complicated than you think. "Sociopathy" is a diagnostic entity - we call it "Antisocial Personality Disorder" in psychiatry - but what you are describing - lack of remorse, no conscience - is "psychopathy" not "sociopathy" properly speaking, and there is no current diagnostic category (believe it or not) that covers psychopathy. So, the whole thing is kind of a mess. That's why I'm unsure how to handle it.
FS: Damn, man! When you chime in, you chime in like gangbusters. There's too much there, bro! What you say about drug interactions and liver stress is good, but we have a lot of ground to cover in what should be a fairly brief CS, and we can't have more than a line or two devoted to any one concern. Can you suggest a line or two of text that would express your concern about drug interactions and liver stress? I want to include your ideas, but we have to make it brief and accessible, so it doesn't overshadow the rest of the CS. Good work, as always, gentlemen. Come back quickly so we can put this one to bed. Bjaarki ... Then, do what you have to do.
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First, say to yourself what you would become. Then, do what you have to do. |
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01-31-2003, 05:16 PM
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#39 (permalink) |
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Super Moderator
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Maybe this...
Users must always be aware of synergetic reactions between drugs. While most users are conscious of the negative impact of combining two 17aa steroids, most are not aware that there are many OTC drugs that can either inhibit or induce the production of certain liver enzymes. These drugs do not always produce a negative impact on the liver when taken alone, but they can, nonetheless, render the liver less capable of processing certain steroids. Users should familiarize themselves with the enzymes utilized to break down the more liver toxic steroids, as well as the OTC drugs that might have an impact on the specific enzymes in question. |
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01-31-2003, 07:48 PM
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#40 (permalink) |
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Senior Member
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Well if there is no diagnostic category I'm not sure it will fit in a statement on "Medical"/Psyciatric Contraindications, sorry. Is it possible to have non-medical consensees as well?
and if they approach us..I..I..I bury those cockroaches!
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I can make you a celebrity overnight. Winners see problems as just another way to prove themselves! D.T. |
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02-02-2003, 09:34 AM
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#41 (permalink) |
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The CS has been revised to include both SteelPreacher's and Fukkenshredded's points.
I think it's done. I'm pleased with it. See what you think.
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First, say to yourself what you would become. Then, do what you have to do. |
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02-03-2003, 02:06 PM
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#44 (permalink) |
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Wonderful job Bjaarki
and if they approach us..I..I..I bury those cockroaches!
__________________
I can make you a celebrity overnight. Winners see problems as just another way to prove themselves! D.T. |
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