Consensus Statement on Age of Initiation of Anabolic Use

[jimm]

agree to the stipulations : neuromuscular learning achieved and a foundation built ( has plateued )
has an understanding of risks involved
has understanding of proper use and pharmacological parameters
has an intense and lasting interest in weight training
is of an age at which a certain maturity exists such that these issues are considered seriously.

[archive_LuckyDog]

I've been holding my tongue on this thread to see what others had to say but I do have something to say. Most members here are shying away from using chronological age as a factor in determining our CS. Well I feel that it should be included as one of the quantifiable statements that we make so that others can relate and take it from our CS---but it should NOT be the only factor.

First off, we are addressing the "average athlete" as our model for basis. Well then guess what. He/she could be defined by several different personalities but I take it that we're speaking of the average 20-something, 30-something, 40-something weekend warrior and Iron addict. They lift and lead a healthy lifestyle because of personal reasons and they like to lift weights regularly and be active constantly, whether it's through weekend football leaues, pickp games of B-ball, rock climbing, ju-jit-su, etc. Of course there will be differences but we are trying to set a model toward the "average user". We are not trying to address the competitive athlete, which I will address in a minute.

There are so many different ways to say when one SHOULD start using anabolics but we are going to have to settle on a mixture of quantifiable and qualitative set points. If we are to say that a chile started doing research on AAS at 13 and was lifting hard/eating right/etc.( it's at least 4 years, you have put in the gym with a serious program.--Ulter) because he wanted to succeed in high school sports, and then followed your rule of 4 years and started at 17, is it okay for him?? I say no, for a variety of reasons. Age, hormone levels, immaturity, legal issues-being a dependant, etc. I started researching AAS when I was a freshman in high school...I was 14 when I entered. There's no way I was even close to being ready throughout my high school career.

Second, by giving a concrete variable such as age, it brings no doubt to the individual user as to whether they "have been on a serious program" or not for the period of time recommended.--- "I worked out hard for the past couple of years, but my diet wasn't that good, I never counted calories or anything. But I did take a lot of supplements...and only skipped a couple of months here and there...so yeah, I'd say I've been pretty serious."---We don't want this to happen b/c serious is left up to the individual user to decide.

What I'm trying to get at with all of this mumble jumble is that I think we should combine most of the quantifiable and qualitative variables to come up with what we have learned: It has been agreed upon that it is better to not start AAS usage until one has attained an extensive knowledge of lifting/nutrition/AAS/etc. through 5-7 years of experience and generally agreed upon that it is best to wait until one is 25-28 years of age when one's own body starts going down from it's peak and hormone levels start to decline, etc. (There are other variables I think should be in here as well)

Quote--"I am not suggesting that athletes be excluded from participating in the discussion I am saying the discussion should exclude athletes whose lives/future depend on using AS. Those people have to make decisions that are special to their own circumstances and we can't possibly include every situation in this discussion. This discussion is directed at amateur athletes and body builder"
--Ulter I am glad you said this. I am a competitive athlete and I plan on using AAS to help me achieve my goals. Does my future depend on AAS? As a competitive athlete, yes. I would like to go to the Pro's someday, but I still have some time left and I'm using my knowledge of nutrition/training/AAS to give me every edge possible to help me in my quest. But am I also an amateur athlete who has many of the same ideals/beliefs that many have shared here. I have fellow athletes come up to me all the time asking "To hook them up" but you know what? I tell them I know nothing about AAS or anyone who uses them. WHy? B/c I know they could never make it to the pros and if they don't have the knowledge or brains to research what they want to do to themselves then they don't deserve anything. (Plus I have moral values against this as well)

I have not met a single individual that meets what Bjaarki described in #4. (Besides myself of course [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] ) I do agree with Bjaarki here:---" The likelihood that these conditions have been met decreases as the age of prospective anabolic users decreases and, at some point in youth, vanishes to near-zero. Allowing for substantial individual variability, most athletes will have reached their mid- to late-20's before full physical stature, mature musculature, thorough training-related knowledge, and social maturity are attained."
---I mean how can you not agree with that? It's a known fact. So why don't we use age as ONE indicator? It will at least deter or "plant a seed" in some individuals minds that "Hey, these guys are pretty smart who wrote this, they must of wrote the age thing for a reason". They can always ignore it as it's their constitutional right to. In the end, they're gonna make the decisions for themselves and the best we can hope for is to at least influence one's opinions.

Odds and Ends:
SteelPreacher-listened to one's advice which sounds much like what we want to propose for the masses, it worked for him, he seems to be happy with his decision. Why not give the CS, hope they follow it because when everything is over the individual is gonna have to live with their decision...not us.

Harddtime-That was your choice to start when you did and you have every right to...I'm not saying that everyone on this board uses to look good in clubs but it has worked out fine for you and I'm glad. Was it the healthiest choice at your age? No, but then again you weren't using it as a competitive athlete who has unusual athletic promise either. Keep in mind I am not trying to disrespect your decision to use, just trying to point out that you aren't the majority.

Sorry guys for taking up so much space, I realized I have sort of rambled on in an incoherent rage but if you can take at least one thing out of this collage of random thoughts, then it has done it's job and well worth my time. Take Care.

LuckyDog

Education is a continuous process ending only when ambition comes to a halt.
-Col. R. I. Rees

Hhhhmmmm. The idea that height is a detriment to bodybuilding never occured to Arnold Schwarzenneggar or Lou Ferrigno obviously. The idea of using AS specifically to prevent normal bone maturation in order to reduce the final stature achieved is not good. We look back on the Asian cultures for breaking womens feet repeatedly to make them small (under 5 inches) with horror, as well would future generations I am sure if we were to suggest using AS to keep future BB'ers small. Allowing the skeleton to fully mature is important from a human point of view.

We are talking about ossification, more specifically the secondary centers of ossification. ossification is the process in which cartilage is gradually replaced by mature bone. "Ossification begins in the human embryo in the 10th week. Ossification has been devided into 2 periods, primary and secondary. Primary ossification begins during fetal life. This ossification is not necessarily complete prior to birth, but it must begin prior to birth. Secondary ossification begins after birth............. the secondary centers of ossification (of the spine) begin to appear during the 17th year. Fusion with the remaining already ossified (primary centers of ossification) vertebrae is complete by the 25th year........ As a general rule, however, ossification first begins in the lower thoracic or upper lumbar region and rapidly progresses to the cervical region. Sacral and coocygeal areas are last to show ossification......Ossification of the sacral cartilage begins during the 18th year...By the age of 25 the sacrum has completely ossified and is a single bone.....the 4th segment of the coccyx begins between the 14th and 20th year. By the 25th year ossification is complete." - Gates, Douglas; Correlative Spinal Anatomy, 1977.

From this we see some centers of ossification do not begin to reach full maturity until 18 and does not stop until 25.

Non spinal areas have different times of reaching full development. The elbow reaches full bone maturity in boys at age 15-15.5. The hip and pelvis begins to reach maturity in boys at 16 and is complete "after 18 years of age". Shoulder and clavicle reach full maturity "after the age of 18". And also the hand and wrist reach complete fusion at 17.5-18 in boys, (16 - 16.5 in girls).
Statistics taken from : Nelsons Textbook of Pediatrics, 14th edition, W. B. Saunders, 1992.
However in evaluating osseous (bone) maturation "variability is less for girls than for boys.." (page 37 of Nelsons Pediatrics). So with boys there could be more deviation from these exact dates - some much sooner and some much later.

The same book (Nelsons) also tells us "Little linear growth is achieved after the growth spurt of middle adolescence". This growth spurt occurs at a mean age of 14 in boys. Just FYI, in males peak grip strength occurs 14 months after the peak in the height velocity curve. Neurophysiologic structures appear to be completely developed by the end of middle adolescence, although sleep studies suggest physiologic changes do occur. In males the development of chest hair appears as the last event in the progression of hair growth. There is still development of the thyroid and cricoid cartilage due to testosterone stimulation, abnd also of the laryngeal muscles in late adolescence (lasting into the early 20's). (all information taken from Nelson's)

So the use of AS prior to 19 years of age is sure to have some impact on the development of stablizing structures such as the hips and shoulders, but less impact in terms of height. The majority of height is reached by 18 years of age, although an extra inch or two might be eeked out up to the age of 25. Of course in males there is alot of variability and some males only hit a growth spurt near age 18. Anabolic use prior to late adolesence (into the early 20's) can have effects on the voice and throat, and perhaps on sleep cycles due to continued neurophysiologic changes.

To allow complete normal maturation of the skeleton, neurophysiology and larynx - age 25.

Sports - hhhmmmm again. I will consider that as a seperate topic.

Just for you Bjaarki.

[archive_Ulter]

"If we are to say that a chile started doing research on AAS at 13 and was lifting hard/eating right/etc.( it's at least 4 years, you have put in the gym with a serious program.--Ulter"

Why stop at 13? You can say he started 10 years old. My son has a chart and a routine and he's 7. But he's not in a dedicated serious program.

"I started researching AAS when I was a freshman in high school...I was 14 when I entered. There's no way I was even close to being ready throughout my high school career.

I am not sure what relevance this statment has to what I said or if it's supposed to be. I didn't make any reference to what age someone may make start researching AS. I was talking about training.

Anyone who trains for 4 dedicated years will most likely know if it's time for them or not. This would not include members of a HS football team who weight train 4 days and party all weekend. You see I don't think that there ARE very many people who are THAT serious about training throughout HS.


"Second, by giving a concrete variable such as age, it brings no doubt to the individual user as to whether they "have been on a serious program" or not for the period of time recommended.--- "I worked out hard for the past couple of years, but my diet wasn't that good, I never counted calories or anything. But I did take a lot of supplements...and only skipped a couple of months here and there...so yeah, I'd say I've been pretty serious."---We don't want this to happen b/c serious is left up to the individual user to decide."

If you have to explain to someone what dedicated and serious means in defining someones training. Then they are neither serious nor dedicated.

"--Ulter I am glad you said this."

I had you in mind.

[archive_Bjaarki]

..... lookin' good, bros. Lookin' real good.

I am going to try to do a first edit of the Consensus Statement text sometime over the next day or two. But what are we going to do about this "age vs. experience" thing. All the brothers made very good arguments to take age as a criterion out of the mix, then along come Lucky and GW and it looks like they want age back in. Maybe not the 25-28 range I initially put in, but maybe some lower age range makes sense?

I need some guidance on this.

This has already been a very worthwhile exercise. I'm very pleased. You should be too.

Other bros who've not been heard from: PLEASE POST YOUR THOUGHTS!!!

Be well. Journey safely.

Bjaarki

[archive_Ulter]

B I would leave it up for a while. This board is a lot slower than most boards but everyone comes here. You have a long way to go on this.

I just wanted to add that I have asked a few of the people whose posts I always stop to read to take part as well so let's go slow.

[This message was edited by Ulter on 11-08-2002 at 09:44 PM.]

[archive_Flash]

The goal is an ideal age. This will be broken regaurdless of what we put by some individuals, but serves as a reference point. It's not as if we are changing the laws of anything here. If we decide 25, then it doesnt stop someone at 16 from eating handfulls of Dbol; Thats not to say we shouldnt deter them. I believe this is a usefull function, and that we need clarity of definition. The age needs to be a hard number. Tangible and not subjective. It will not be obeyed; but it will make one think about their actions with anabolics, and thats all we can hope for.

...Oh yeah, my vote is 21. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[archive_macrophage69alpha]

what is the purpose of use (that you wish to define a statement of "readyness" for)? if this were more clearly defined then a more specific answer could be given.

MP

Athletes.... How do we develop a special consensus for them. Especially since few of us are have been or will be professional athletes.

Here is conjecture (not suggestion) : Although not recommended, prior to age 25 AS should be limited to morning Anavar or Dbol (20 mg) to avoid excessive suppression of HPTA neurophysiology, and testicular atrophy and/or HGH no more than 8 IU per day. This should only be in athletes showing X amount of promise, all state in high school etc. AS should be barred from Olympics with mandatory 100% lie detector testing and minimum 10% random urine testing, any AS use should bar one from every competing in Olympic games again. AS use should be mandatory for any pro-athletes, except perhaps wide receivers.

[Huckleberry Finnaplex]

Pre-req's:

*Out of teens(20 being the earliest starting age)

*Have at least 3 years of solid training under belt.

*Have researched thoroughly for an entire year on how the endocrine system functions/how A/S effect it,and how to achieve homeostatic balance post drug-use.

*Agree to have regular bloodwork done prior to,during,and after drug regimen to carefully monitor what is occurring with the system.

*Have a thorough understanding of what each compound does once administered in the system as well as an understanding of the ancillaries that should accompany each particular hormone.

[archive_macrophage69alpha]

anyone one who wants to take them and is willing to get "certified", by an accredited Anabolic Fitness University. Or willing to do so under the direction of a board certified "Doctor of Anabolic science". some minimum age (18-22), but with exceptions approved on case by case basis (mostly atheletes). SOme ancillaries or weaker AS might be made available to younger candidates in need(particularly for cosmetic reasons). Passes an psychological exam (not too stringent as that would eliminate most). Passes a health exam. Can afford all the drugs and ancillaries and blood testing. (scholarships could be applied for).

not exactly what you are looking for, as such a framework does not exist,however.. perhaps that is what should be strived for.

a bit whimsical, but think that the general point is made.

MP

[archive_therealj]

I don't like it...sorry, I have about 10 million reasons why and I can't full articulate them with my keyboard..

1) I don't like having religon preached to me and this is very 10 commandment like to me, except none of us are the "steroid god"

2) the whole age thing is complete bullshit...why waste almost your whole 20's busting your ass in the gym for a few lbs per year, when instead you can enjoy what is probably the most enjoyable 10 physical years of your life

3) why is the only qualifying reason for younger people to use athletics?...what if a fat 19 year old virgin wants to drop 20lbs of fat add some muscle and actually get laid in college?..why isn't this a good enough reason...because it doesn't make you or I happy?...

4) regarding what Flash said "Athletes that show clear promise

top regional athletes who only need that extra 1% to get them from good to elite. For example your the best 100meter sprinter in your region(not just school or city), and your times are within -10% of top olympians. At this point judicious use of anabolics can be justified"

what if a little cycle is enough to get me into college and have my education paid for even though I'll never make it to the "elite" level

this whole thread makes me too mad to type,lol...I don't even want to add my thoughts regarding the age...it really is a personal choice and I don't believe any of us have the right to pick what is the "right" age...do I think high school kids using steroids are stupid?...yeah I do, but that doesn't mean I'm qualified to decide when they should...if you're old enough to vote and go to war for your country I'd have to say you're a big enough to decide whether steroids are right for you or not...don't get me wrong B...I can see much good coming out of this but I really don't think any of us have the right to say who's ready and who's not...my brain hurts

[archive_LuckyDog]

The whole reason for the age factor is to show others what we have agreed upon as a safe/smart age to start anabolics, but please understand that there's no way in hell that everyone is going to read this and say "hmmm...I'm only 19, and the AF Consensus Statement says to wait until 26 so damn...looks like I can't do any gear." It is in there to give people an understanding of what we feel is best through our collective ideas and believe me, there will still be many 18 and 19 year old users. They're not just gonna dissapear!

You guys act like if we put an age, well then no one, and I mean no one can break that rule or else "they will be drop-kicked by god"...sorry Caligula, that is just too funny. Do you guys get my point? In the end, it's still up to the individual like it always has been, and only they can make that decision for themselves. Take Care.

LuckyDog

Education is a continuous process ending only when ambition comes to a halt.
-Col. R. I. Rees

[SteelPreacher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>1) I don't like having religon preached to me and this is very 10 commandment like to me, except none of us are the "steroid god"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You forgot me therealj I am the steroid God.<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>2) the whole age thing is complete bullshit...why waste almost your whole 20's busting your ass in the gym for a few lbs per year, when instead you can enjoy what is probably the most enjoyable 10 physical years of your life
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed about the second part but dont know why u say the whole age thing is bulshit. Ur talking about the 20's
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>3) why is the only qualifying reason for younger people to use athletics?...what if a fat 19 year old virgin wants to drop 20lbs of fat add some muscle and actually get laid in college?..why isn't this a good enough reason...because it doesn't make you or I happy?...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed again, sex is a good reason to do jus about anything, especially in college.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>what if a little cycle is enough to get me into college and have my education paid for even though I'll never make it to the "elite" level
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sure of course...

So you may be mad therealj but u've actually suggested a minimum age around 18 or 19. It was in a round a bout way but nonetheless it actually goes along with what i've seen most others saying as a minimum.


Don't be fooled by the muscles that I got, I'm still, I'm still Preacher from the block! I used to have a little now I have a lot, but I still know where I came from! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[archive_Bjaarki]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> B I would leave it up for a while. This board is a lot slower than most boards but everyone comes here. You have a long way to go on this.

I just wanted to add that I have asked a few of the people whose posts I always stop to read to take part as well so let's go slow. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's fine, Ulter. Yeah, I've noticed a few visiting dignitaries here like Huck, and I'm in no rush to start editing. My wife just picked up the new U2 retrospective album, and Dave Matthews "Live at Folsom Field," so I need to be spending some time with my CD player this weekend, anyway.

Macro: We really can't "specify" the reasons that people use gear, because there are so many of them. One of the posts above pitches a kind of "average user" picture to frame the argument. I think that's a good one. You're still being mysterious, bro ... "whimsical," as you say. I wish you'd be more direct, but I'll try to stop bitching about that.

J, I'm sorry you're pissed off at this idea. If you could get over that, I think you'd have a lot to offer. You're a younger guy, and maybe you're feeling we're trying to exclude you or something. C'mon man, you know we love you! Whatever the CS has in it, there will be a "therealJ exclusion clause" prominently displayed that will excuse you from all requirements.

There now seem to be about as many guys who favor the specification of a specific age range as guys who oppose it. A specific age gives "a benchmark," as someone said. I think this is one of the main foci of controversy - "What age?" We have to either abandon that idea altogether, or work toward consensus on an age range. If we take the latter route, the judgment should be based on an analysis of the facts, like GW offered in his detailed and thoughtful note. We can't just say "18" because that's voting age, or "21" because that's drinking age. We're talking about a very peculiar beast here - anabolic steroids in the context of the ironhead lifestyle - and we have to conform our arguments to that.

Bjaarki

Age offers something concrete as opposed to "4 years of serious training". We could also just specify certain individuals like "AS can be used by everyone but therealJ"

[Q]

Age is not as important as being happy with your current height, I started when I hit 6ft, and I am the shortest in my family, but still tall. 18 is the youngest age I will recommend gear for based solely on the fact that the person is now legally an adult.

Nix the genetic potential aspect since it isn't something that you can measure, knowledge of nutrition, Gear, and lifting is more important.

Q

[Q]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Nobody:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
21" because that's drinking age<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Q put 18 out there for a good reason: legallity. I want to go a step further and raise it to 21 to quanitify the ellusive "psychological maturity". However let me repeat what I said before: 21 is minimum if all other stipulations and conditions have been met.
_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My feeling, as with alcohol, If you are mature enough to vote, drive a car, enlist in the military, get married, buy a house and be sentenced as an adult, you are old enough to drink and use AAS or any other drug. But I strongly suggest you research every and any substance you put in your body before doing so. In the end it is up to the person.

Q

[Ivan Drago]

My vote is for complete freedom of making the choice at any age.
Basically, that's how it is right now.

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
21" because that's drinking age<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why cant we tie it in with the legal drinking age? I suggested 21 as the minimum, when all other conditions, such as bone maturity, ample experience and so on have been met. There was a reason why the government set the drinking age at 21 and didn't just say: "You can drink, when you are mature enough to handle the intoxicating effects of alcohol...." We have to start at an age. Q put 18 out there for a good reason: legallity. I want to go a step further and raise it to 21 to quanitify the ellusive "psychological maturity". However let me repeat what I said before: 21 is minimum if all other stipulations and conditions have been met.

So, it can be boiled down to this:
1) full physical maturity
2) 5-7 (or whatever we agree on) years workout experience
3) Psychological maturity but not younger than age 21.
Forget reaching genetic potential, cause you dont know when that happen(s)(ed)


Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.

[This message was edited by Mr. Nobody on 11-09-2002 at 04:43 PM.]