WE WUZ RIGHT, THEY WUZ WRONG .....

[archive_Bjaarki]

A year or so ago, I was standing at a street corner early in the morning, waiting to put my kids on the bus for their ride to school. A nutritionist with an international reputation, a full professor in the prestigious Department of Food Science at Cook College and one of the original brains behind the Department of Agriculture's "Food Pyramid," was waiting with her children nearby. We're casual friends, and we chatted as parents at the bus-stop often do while trying our best to ignore the hijinks of our kids, hers especially hyper from their breakfast of cereal, toast, and nonfat milk.

Conversation turned to exercise, my passion for lifting, and her idle wish that both she and her husband could "find the motivation" to exercise at least a few times a week. I was looking fairly buff that morning, and when she asked me about what kind of diet I use to combine with my dedication to weight-training, I gritted my teeth (knowing full well the reaction I would get) but told her the truth, what any bodybuilder knows is the right diet for limiting fat deposition, promoting lean mass gain, and optimizing body composition: Very high protein, moderate fat, extremely low carbohydrate.

Dairy products?

"Lots of them, but only the full-fat kind."

Meat?

"Mmm-mmm. The redder the better."

But ... did you say very low carbohydrate?

Anticipating the explosion that would follow, because I know this woman's work, I nodded sadly, and explained "Carbs are evil." Horror on her face. "I eat lots of fruit, and get plenty of carbs that way and from dairy and legumes, but I eat practically no grain-based carbohydrates. Carbs are evil." Any bodybuilder knows that. But it seems that, until just now, and with only a few exceptions like Robert Atkins, only we knew it.

Well, my nutritionist friend didn't disappoint me. Unluckily, the bus was late that morning, so I was treated to the full 15-minute lecture on the dangers of protein, the role of dietary fat in promoting obesity, and how we should all be grateful to her and her colleagues for the "discovery" that carbohydrates, both simple and complex, are the "ideal food" for homo sapiens. I just smiled in an embarrassed way and nodded, as I am prone to do when the otherwise sage make fools of themselves. It was a pretty funny scene, if you think about it. I'm standing there 50 years old at a hard 195#, bodyfat somewhere between 9 and 10% ... She's standing there 6 or 7 years younger with an extra 30lbs she could lose, an ass out to HERE ... And she's telling me how I should eat. I never forgot that, and it's pretty plain from looking at them at the bus-stop that neither she nor her husband ever "found the motivation" to workout.

Well, we wuz right, and she wuz wrong. Check out, my friends, the cover article in this week's New York Times Magazine - "What if it's all been a big fat lie?" by Gary Taubes. Oh it's rich, bros. Grab it off the web, and show it to the next hostess who wants you to try her pasta salad.

http://www.nytimes.com/library/magazine/home/

<BLOCKQUOTE class="**-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "The ongoing epidemic of obesity in America and elsewhere is not, as we are constantly told, due simply to a collective lack of willpower and a failure to exercise. Rather it occurred ... because the public health authorities told us unwittingly, but with the best of intentions, to eat precisely those foods that would make us fat, and we did. We ate more fat-free carbohydrates, which, in turn, made us hungrier and then heavier," (p. 24). The article goes on to thoroughly destroy the high-carb fad for its effects on insulin-release, hypoglycemia, subjective hunger and, of course, the obvious result in America ... an obesity rate that has multiplied at precisely the time we as a nation were eating less fat and more carbohydrate. "That steep rise, which is consistent through all segments of American society and which continued unabated through the 1990's, is the singular feature of the epidemic. Any theory that tries to explain obesity in America has to account for that." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hah! I have only two regrets. One is that quite a few people have died behind my friend's lame-ass Food Pyramid. "Dead Shovels" the ER docs call them, after the obese mofos who drop dead in their 40's clearing the snow from their sidewalks, too damn fat to live. The other regret is a selfish one, that Summer will last two more months, an eternity before I'll get to stand smugly at the bus stop in a tank top and ask my friend, idly, what she thought of Taubes's article, and whether the Food Pyramid will have the same quirky historical interest that one finds in, say, 19th century medicine's love of leeches, or whether it will just, shamefacedly, fade away.

Yes, we bodybuilders wuz right, brothers, and they wuz wrong. Smile and be happy. Be well, brothers, lift heavy, journey safely. And ... uh ... pass that plate of ribs down to this end, wouldja?

Bjaarki

" 'Til the weard of the world, stands, unforgotten,
high under Heaven, the Hero's name!"
Hrolff Krakki's Saga (Iceland)

BECOME SOMEONE'S HERO!

[Decaman]

Your post is amusing but I dont know where you got this carbs are evil philosophy from.



DECA- IT'S WHATS FOR DINNER!

[archive_45goingon20]

To-shea. I know wrong spelling. Good to see you posting. I have found for me that a few more complex carbs isn't to damaging. I was once full throttle on the no carb, keto, high good fat mode.

Now with supps like ALA, the extra carbs are not as evil, provided you take them in at precise times of the day and post workout.

45 [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[archive_Ulter]

Yes but what B is saying is dead (pardon the pun) right. People were and still are told to eat plenty of white bread, buns, and Kelloggs Raisin Bran (because it's part of this healthy breakfast). Then they turn into the general population of Central Florida. Slow, lazy, fat asses.
I can't tell you how pissed off I get having to watch my son learn and memorize this pyramid in school to keep a good GPA. Then I have to go back and teach him that what the teacher said is all wrong.

[Verbal Gorilla]

Absolutely totally uneducated and wrong...For the absolutle acheivements of a bodybuilder, carbs can be preatty "evil" so to speak but not for an ATHLETE...Obesity is unquestionablly due to to inactivity and too many calories, period. Newsflash...just cause low-fat diets are medically popular don't mean that people follow them.

[gwl9dta4]

I hate to tell you but leaches are used extensively in medicine today as well.

[Diesel Paule]

Carbs are evil?? The more the BETTER! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img]

[DREXX]

Bjarrki, good to see you post my friend!

I was starting to think your wife put you in an old folks home [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Carbs are the devil, the devil I say...


If it's not hard it's not worth doing...

[Beezers]

It's a good article and highlights a dangerous, but accurate point that the RDA, food pyramid, and advice of "conventional" nutritionists is flawed, completely wrong, and/or a contributing reason for obesity. Carbs aren't "evil" and that's not what the article was based on. The problems come from the wrong food choices, excess food consumption, and complete inactivity. Genetics has a helping hand in bodyfat levels, but all people are capable of healthy bodyfat levels should the acually try. Unfortunately most people don't try nor do they educate themselves as to how to deal with thier weight problems. Reading the "low fat" marketing gimick on thier box of cookies or chips is the most in depth literature they get into in order to combat thier lazy ignorance. The food pyramid isn't correct. Anyone with half a brain and a little bit of educational effort can figure that out. There is no one diet fits all approach. No-carb is a solution, but not the only answer. For completely sedentary individuals it may have merits, but for hard training atheletes it probably is the most detrimental thing you can do to neggatively effect performance. The thing that most of us on this board need to keep in mind is that we are FAR dofferent than the general population when it comes to nutritional needs and health problems. Our body's are able to use nutrients far more efficiently and in far greater qunaities than a person who considers a flight of stairs thier daily activity. If you create a need for nutrients the body will respnd to them. Most people create no need for all the food they consume due to thier lack of activity. They compound this problem by eating high GI carbs of which theyn have no use for. I beleive the type of carbs consumed are at the heart of ther problem, not carbs themselves. I know as a subjective fact that I cannot train with no or even low carbs. I need to have full glycogen stores to support my training. I eat very low GI wholesome carb sources and because of this have low bodyfat(eating 600+grams of CHO per day) and a very healthy blood profile(insulin levels, cholesterol levels). We certainly can't base anything on one person alone, but in my experince with dedicated bodybuilders and atheletes carbs are not the enemy and are vital to performance. The general lard-ass population eats nothing but high GI carbs and indulges in a lifestyle that is condusive to obesity and disease. We, bodybuilders/athletes, are a breed apart from the masses. Inactivity is the start of thier problem. Poor food selction is the icing on the cake...or the lard on thier asses. Hard training drastically alters metabolism for the better....except free radical damage. I certainly don't think atkins diets are unhealthy or even detrimental to a normal desk job couch slob. But I don't see thier place in the athletic community.

That is funny, talking health and diet when the truth is as plain as the nose on her face, or rather.... the ass on her back.

B-man, you run with an overly erudite crowd.

[Decaman]

You know damn well when i mention carbs i am not refering to white bread and breakfast cereals heh heh. This is way too basic to even get into , carbs are far from evil and quite necessary. I am not going to rip apart bjaarki's post but a prolonged diet with very low carbs is very counterproductive.


DECA- IT'S WHATS FOR DINNER!

[division]

I think the amount of carbs necessary is dependant on the body type of the individual. Those with a higher metabolism will require more than someone with a slower metabolism. If I don't keep my carbs low, I gain fat rather easily. I don't think low carbs is ideal for the athlete because it would mean the body would burn protein for energy.

"Good Girls Get Fat, Bad Girls Get Eaten"

- Deja_Voodoo

[archive_Flash]

carbs aint so bad. I eat pizza and breakfast cereal and and normally a coke a day. It all depends on quantity and quality of your cardio. Now, I aint leanin out like this, but I'm keepin at under 8 according to calipers.

[SwoleSouth]

Carbs (from good quality sources such as oats, grits, and good ole sweet taters) are your friend. Eat a lot of them, and your body uses them for energy instead of using all that precious protein that you pay so much for. I don't know about anyone else, but if I don't get a good amount of carbs in, I feel like complete shit. You need to find a healthy balance between carbs and protein....not just for your body, but for your wallet as well.

[archive_Bjaarki]

Decaman, I doubt if we disagree. As I said in my threadstarter, I get plenty of carbs from fruit, dairy, legumes, vegetables, roots. I've never bothered to count up the grams per day that I consume, but they're enough.

When I say "carbs are evil," I am referring to the carbs that are at the base of the Ag Department's Food Pyramid - bread, pasta, rice - basically, grain-based carbs. Bodybuilders like you understand the term "carbs" more generally, but most people, when they encounter the term, think of breads and pasta and rice - flour- and sugar-based food - and that was what I meant when I say "carbs." None of those things were part of man's diet until the agricultural revolution somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 years ago, we are not biologically adapted to consume them, and there is mounting evidence that it is the consumption of grain-based carbohydrates, more than any other single factor, that contributes to obesity in man and to the Obesity Epidemic that has been sweeping the U.S. for the past two decades. It's not so much that people are less active, but rather that they eat a LOT more, they eat a lot more because they're a LOT HUNGRIER, and they're a lot hungrier because of the effects on insulin release and blood sugar of the constant spikes throughout the day caused by the 9-11 servings of carbs (again, grain-based carbs) that are at the base of the Food Pyramid.

Is this really controversial news in a forum like this? If so, I'm surprised. A growing number of nutrition scientists are beginning to recognize this.

Bjaarki

[archive_45goingon20]

The "they Wuz Wrong" people are beginning to acknowlege the fact they were wrong. The general contractor I work for is currently building 2 new laboratories for the USDA. The labs are called 'Human Nutrition Research Centers". These facilities specifically will be analyzing food substances that the human body consumes and excretes. I spoke with one of the program doctors at the facility. To make a long story short, the doctor says that they will be revising or getting rid of the food pryamid. They have admitted that one guideline for all is flawed. Their findings will be looking at the different type of physiological bodies and racial make-ups and establishing individual requirements. IE: Cholesterol may be harmful for person, but for another it may cause no concern. Something we as bodybuilders have recognized for some time. I don't know when these findings will come out. We all know how the government works, SLOOOOW.
45

[Beezers]

This is far from controversial news, but your original post made out to sound as though any carbohydrate was the end of a lean physique and the start of obesity and health malady's. It's no surprise to most of us that 99.9% of the food stuffs on store shelves and served in restaraunts is utter garbage and frankly, repulsively unfit for human consumption. That doesn't mean there aren't valueble and wholesome choices of carbs. The problem, as you have just said, lies on the type and quanity of carbohydrate that is consumed by the ubiquitous "jello-ass American". When everything comsumed (in abundance) in the average persons diet is refined carbs with very high GI values it becomes clear that that is the main cause of obesity in this country. Couple that with gross inactivity and the body is rendered uncapable of dealing with such hormonal alterations and caloire excess. Food has become everyhting except it's sole role...nourishment. It is social, comforting, drug-like, time-occupying, and rewarding. It is no longer nourishing. People no longer see it as nourishment. Instead they see it as one or all of the "excuses" above. I think most serious bodybuilders have a very good grasp of proper nutrition including healthy carb choices, but when you conclude that the bodybuilding population is such a minuscule fraction of the whole population it is clear that most people don't eat well. Much of this is caused by miscomunication such as the food guide pyramid, the low-fat norm, and marketing gimiks designed to promote a healthy product to the unknowingly ignorant. This doesn't mean the truth isn't out there. If people were serious about thier body's appearance and health they would make the effort to learn how to eat right. I think we have a solid enough grasp of nutrition to recomend more appropriate guidlines for "good eating" than the food guide pyramid. The only problem is it would ruin a multi-billion dollar industry. Nobody's goiing to make millions off a sweet potato. Food selevtion is very poor in this country. That's the root of the problem.

[Decaman]

What your saying is not going to apply to a bodybuilder and certainly not one on steroids. I can eat rice all day and not get fat, in fact my diet for the last while has consisted of oatmeal 2x a day and rice 2x a day in additon to some simple sugars post workout and 1 piece of fruit a day and my bodyfat has continued to drop. When i do not include enough complex carbs (notably either sweet potatos, rice, and or oatmeal) and only eat simple sugars post workout and maybe some veggies and fruit I get flat and feel empty within days. I do agree sugar and anything with flour is evil and very bad for your physique, but again these items can also be consumed ocassionally as long as your exercising and not consuming large quantities of them in one sitting but thats just common sense. Most bodybuilders will include rice and oatmeal in their diet- I always have from day one and i am lean as hell. This is going to vary from person to person and its apparent that grain based carbs give you trouble, your age and metabolism could be a factor because your activity level isnt as you obviously train often. Its interesting how this varies from person to person because i can tell you by looking over what you eat as far as carbs go- i look terrible when i eat that way. Dairy makes me look soft, and the lack of complex carbs makes me look flat. I usually never move much above 40-50 grams of fat and this approach has always worked well for me. I have tried all kinds if diets and those with a higher level of fat and low carbs never worked well in my opinion , for anything longer than a few weeks and they certainly did nothing to increase my lbm, best i can remember they did help to reduce bf (but i am sure some muscle went with it), but no more so than if i upped the carbs and did a little more cardio. The food pyramid is a guide for your average person and while we think its worthless, if they used their heads and learned how much a serving actually was( and this is a big problem), and didnt think 9 servings of carbs meant 18 slices of bread a day, it probably would be somewhat effective in maintaing a healthy lifestyle. Even with that said it is very flawed and should be done away with. So while i dont exactly agree with everything you said , there is some common ground however you cannot make the statement-
what any bodybuilder knows is the right diet for limiting fat deposition, promoting lean mass gain, and optimizing body composition: Very high protein, moderate fat, extremely low carbohydrate. If you ask me this might apply to everyone else but a bodybuilder.



DECA- IT'S WHATS FOR DINNER!

[coroner]

In addition to the grain-based idea (leading to obesity in America) I think the "Supersize revolution" has contributed as well. When it's cheaper to buy a big mac with a huge pail of french fries and a 44 oz coke than it is to just buy the big mac with a small coke, and you are trying to keep your kids from screaming "I'm HUNGRY" in the back seat, who's gonna go the more-expensive-for-less-food route? I think this goes in general for our "healthier" type of foods.
In fact, have you noticed that the price of our diet- the lower-carb (carbs from fresh foods like veggies & fruits), higher protein from good cuts of meat and or chicken, higher fat diet costs a hell of a lot more than the "eat all the shitty packaged grain products like crackers, rice, etc etc?" I hate that shit. You get punished for eating healthy, and the fat slob in the checkout lane next to you loading up on sugar-frosted-sugar-blammos for him and his kids gets more food. It's backwards, if you ask me. I'm not the first person to come up with this, either. I hear that there are proponents of "junk food taxes" or some such thing.

Oh, and for me to look good (ie be lean) Bjaarki's ideas of diet are right on. But to put on mass, completely different story: if I don't eat everything in sight, including all the bread and cereal and everything else I can get my hands on to stuff in my mouth (this only applies to on-cycle), I make minimal gains.

__________________
Night will come, and I will follow
My Ultimate goal: to become so big that I occupy the entire universe!!!!

[archive_PDOGGY]

For those who echo the sentiments of "balance", I wholeheartedly agree. You just can't build muscle without carbs, and they have to be the right types of carbs at the right times.

We, as "bodybuilders" and "athletes" ain't doing nothing particularly noteworthy but using food for its intended purpose: ENERGY and REPAIR.

Our lifestyles merely dictate more than the average person.

I PERSONALLY believe that food is NOT for our enjoyment or pleasure and that the only folks who deserve to indulge in ANY type of delicacies (occasionally) ARE athletes or those who are highly physically active.

What do these people really need a bunch of carbs for, if they ain't doing shit!?

Even for bodybuilders it's a PERSONAL and INDIVIDUAL choice.

Yet, we have to recognize the parallels of similar forms of excess (carb consumption) that may hinder our own personal cause.

I don't care how much you can squat or deadlift, there is nothing vaguely impressive or appealing about being flabby.

I had to tell a buddy of mine..If you feel weak without those coveted carbs, then vary your routine..experiment a bit, try periodization. You have all the time in the world really, or are you into the same "instant gratification" M/O as the rest of the world?

This is why its the Iron Game. It requires strategy.

Some pretty insightful bros post here..I tell people that all the time..

*************************
One day we can stop trippin over how we sound and really trip on what we say. Then we can stop trippin on what we say and trip on what we mean. After that we can stop trippin altogether.

OUT!