Another bridging topic...200mg of test a week??

[DaMan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Verbal Gorilla:
And letrozole is the perfect bridge drug...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Letrozole (Femara) is an aromatase inhibitor, not a steroid. Do you think it's the IGF-1 deal that makes it an ideal bridge? I'm not so sure about that one.

Maybe you mean adding letrozole to a bridge is ideal? I'd agree with THAT.

[DaMan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fonz:

Oooppss, forgot to add that adding in Proviron is IMPOSSSIBLE.

Your HPTA will go ppzzztttt.... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] quite quickly
unless you've come up with a novel way of
cycling it and/or are adding another substance.

Fonz<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Y'know, I've always wondered about that and people who recommend proviron to avoid the post-cycle crash and help with the "coming-off" symptoms (sexdrive).

Any numbers on how proviron affects the HPTA in relation to ox or dbol? Today is incidentally the first day of my clomid therapy so I'm a bit curious...

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Oooppss, forgot to add that adding in Proviron is IMPOSSSIBLE

Your HPTA will go ppzzztttt.... quite quickly
unless you've come up with a novel way of
cycling it and/or are adding another substance..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


fonz just does not give up, he is like that damn gofer hitting game for kids, where they just keep popping up, lol
Proviron:

The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.

Varma TR, Patel RH.

Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K.

Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.

PMID: 2892728 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

That all I could dig up in a rush. Anyways, I am not sure how much proviron would interfer if clomid and letrozole are cycled for LH maintenance.

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advise.

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fonz:
Well, at least we agree on that.

Dball in the Am will create a HIGHER
transient testosterone spike.

This(according to our rationale), will "fool"
the body into thinking the spike was
formed endogeneously, BUT instead it has
been formed by both endogeneous and exogeneous
means.

There will be a "slight" inhibition during
the spike(Has to be), and then nothing....
until the next dose(the following day).

Fonz<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats what I am saying

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advise.

[Fonz]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Nobody:
Quote: "Oooppss, forgot to add that adding in Proviron is IMPOSSSIBLE."

Your HPTA will go ppzzztttt.... quite quickly
unless you've come up with a novel way of
cycling it and/or are adding another substance.


fonz just does not give up, he is like that damn gofer hitting game for kids, where they just keep popping up, lol
Proviron:

The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.

Varma TR, Patel RH.

Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K.

Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. _Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated._ There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.

PMID: 2892728 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

That all I could dig up in a rush. Anyways, I am not sure how much proviron would interfer if clomid and ari are cycled for LH maintenance

_Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advise._<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And Fonz proceeds to shoot down Mr. Nobody's post/abstract..... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment.

Interesting. Raise your hands if you're
planning a 3-month bridge....LOL [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Mr. N, your study is flawed because it looks at
Mesterolone's effects on the HPTA in the MEDIUM
to LONG-term which UNFORTUNATELY does not
apply to the the post-cycle HPTA-recovery
scenario seen in todays bodybuilders.

And yes, I'm planning on being quite ubiquitous
here these next couple of weeks.....hehe

Fonz

[Unity66]

heh.......this is great!! looks like its heading to the hall o' fame [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

so mesterolone will inhibit recovery if utilized post-cycle.....this is not what id like to hear. its nice to see people including deprynel in thier post-cycle regimine though as it really does help combat any post-cycle depression....

i too have had good results with once/day dosing with dball after having all other AAS clear......

let the debating commence.....lol

Unity66

[Fonz]

The rationale that Mr.N "should" have
followed(Ok...now i'm being a bit
condescending but I'm cranky, too much work so
you'll have to forgive me) is that PROVIRON
i.e. mesterolone INHIBITS the HPTA axis in the
short-term BUT eventually the HPTA adapts to it
in the mid/long-term and little/zero HPTA
inhibition is seen.

I don't see how you'd overcome this problem
UNLESS you had been using proviron during the cycle. In this latter aforementioned scenario,
Mr.N's hypothetical approach "could" work.

Fonz

[DaMan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fonz:
The rationale that Mr.N "should" have
followed(Ok...now i'm being a bit
condescending but I'm cranky, too much work so
you'll have to forgive me) is that PROVIRON
i.e. mesterolone INHIBITS the HPTA axis in the
short-term BUT eventually the HPTA adapts to it
in the mid/long-term and little/zero HPTA
inhibition is seen.

I don't see how you'd overcome this problem
UNLESS you had been using proviron during the cycle. In this latter aforementioned scenario,
Mr.N's hypothetical approach "could" work.

Fonz<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All he did was prove it does NOT inhibit in the long term. Do u have studies to prove it DOES inhibit short-term (less than 3 months)?

Thx.

[Fonz]

Ok, I see where Mr.Nobody is coming from..

Well.....hopefully. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

1: Clin Endocrinol (Oxf) 1977 May;6(5):339-45 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


The hormone response to a synthetic androgen (mesterolone) in oligospermia.

Jackaman FR, Ansell ID, Ghanadian R, McLoughlin PV, Lewis JG, Chisholm GD.

Forty subfertile men with oligospermia were treated with a synthetic androgen (Mesterolone). The effect of the drug was evaluated by measuring serum testosterone, luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and analysing the semen before and after treatment. The results demonstrated that in twenty-three patients treated for 6-9 months there was a significant

(AGAIN......6-9 months)

decrease in serum testosterone (P less than 0.01); the means +/- SEM before and after treatment were 17.05 +/- 0.95 and 14.7 +/- 0.95 (nmol/l serum) respectively.

(Testosterone here went down)

There was a pronounced increase in serum LH (P less than 0.01), the values being 2.73 +/- 0.26 and 3.61 +/- 0.3 (u/l) respectively. However, no significant difference was found in serum FSH before and after treatment.

LH went UP, but FSH remained un-CHANGED.

The sperm concentration showed a variable response to treatment. In twenty-one patients there was either no change or worsening in the sperm concentration, whereas in nineteen patients an improvement was observed. The analysis of variance of sperm concentration and motility for the periods before and after treatment, for all the patients, showed no significant difference in the sperm concentration F1.145 = 2.82 (P=0.1).

PMID: 872444 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

SO, to sum it up,

Testosterone went DOWN while LH went UP, and
FSH remained un-changed.

Err....normally when LH goes up, test levels
rise, but in this case Proviron seems to
REDUCE LEVELS OF serum testosterone.....!!!

That would NOT be a good thing.

But, the kicker........ [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

1: Andrologia 1983 May-Jun;15(3):283-6 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


[Androgen substitution in the andrological disease picture]

[Article in German]

Krause W.

Androgen deficiency is due to an insufficient synthesis of testosterone by the Leydig cells.

(Exactly the situation we face post-cycle)

This is either caused by a primary defect (primary hypoandrogenism) or by an inadequate hypophyseal stimulation (secondary hypoandrogenism). The clinical symptoms may include a late puberty, diminished terminal hairs, small testes, sexual impotence, and abnormal seminal fluid, but none of these conditions as an unique sign allows the diagnosis. This is achieved by low testosterone plasma levels (or low urinary excretion). The primary hypoandrogenism is additionally characterized by high gonadotropin levels, while the secondary form shows low FSH and LH.

So low gonadotrophin levels, low FSH and LH.

Hormone substitution is done with *** and hMG in secondary hypoandrogenism only when fertility is aspired. In all other cases and in primary hypoandrogenism testosterone is given, either as oral form (testosterone undecaonate) or as depot injection (testosterone enanthate).

And the good part......

Synthetic derivates like methyltestosterone are hazardous (hepatomas) or, like mesterolone, are too weak in their androgenic effect.

TOO WEAK. Let me repeat that... TOO WEAK.

Mesterolone is TOO WEAK to replace testosterone
as the main androgen in the body BUT still
manages to REDUCE testosterone levels.

Anyways, summing up the points regarding Proviron use post-cycle:

1. Reduces serum testosterone levels
2. LH levels either go up or remain un-changed.
3. FSH levels

Now, this look like a bloody nightmare scenario,
but it really isn't.

The whole purpose IMO for using proviron is
that it GREATLY increases LH levels above and beyond anything else in our pharmaceutical
arsenal.

So, what happens if we add a good-old aromatase
inhibitor or blocker to this scenario?

Testosterone levels WILL GO UP due to the
increased serum testosterone levels. This
of course due to the de-activation of the peripheral testosterone-estrogen enzymatic conversion by the aromatase enzyme, which
just happens to be blocked or inhibited at
the time. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Now, the situation becomes:

1. LH is WAY UP.
2. Serum testosterone is WAY UP.
3. FSH is UP.

If Clomid were added FSH and LH would further increase.

PROBLEM HERE:

See above:

"Mesterolone is TOO WEAK to replace testosterone
as the main androgen in the body BUT still
manages to REDUCE testosterone levels".

Because of this, you'd have to STOP Proviron
administration BEFORE you actually finished
your post-cycle HPTA recovery phase.

So, to sum EVERYTHING up, Proviron can be used
as a Post-cycle LH BOOSTER.......

(This sure is a funny thread. I started off disagreeing with Mr.N and then I end up agreeing
with him and prooving it for him to boot!!. LOL)

Fonz