Reason why you should taper esters and stay away from Sustanon

[Juice Junkie]

Yeah I know I have been playing with this calculator and I even editted a few functions and ran some graphs to show recovery lengths and so forth. Check this out for 3 cycles of 500mg/wk for 8 weeks on test.

First is a Sustanon cycle at 500mg/wk
Notice the sust stays active for a total of 14 weeks. Thats 6 weeks after your last injection.
[img]http://content.communities.msn.com/_Secure/0NwBFVH8TFS4g6qkmo0R*!ZbctpP0frmU8Y7ycVtzFexyxO7Zr S1i3P19cmLjdeedjkOchX9GfbZvY4KHcjSg1w/Sustanon.jpg[/img]

Ok now lets look at Cypionate, same dosage. It stays active for about 11 weeks. Thats 3 weeks after your last injection but still 3 weeks shorter than with sustanon.
[img]http://content.communities.msn.com/_Secure/0OAAvQtAT9z*e3FA2d4Vkq6A0Mpe5qrW4guWZitVFEhcHkqG5R 2nTSpLIzt84Qkg2zH5TlbZ*CzGuAC2Vzso6oGlkdGg9IjEy/Cypionate.jpg[/img]

Then of course you have a mix of Cypionate and Propionate like I have been trying to advocate new people getting into the habit of "tapering esters" or switching to short acting esters as you begin to conclude your cycles. The same dosages apply 500mg/wk for 6 weeks then week 7,8 you will increase the dose to 650mg/wk. Notice the taper brings the pink line closer to the blue. This means the length on time the drug is active in your system is getting much shorter but not at the expense of cutting your cycle short. You still maintain blood levels for the same period of time but the length of time for recovery is much less. 3 weeks shorter than cyp alone and 6 weeks shorter than sust alone.
[img]http://content.communities.msn.com/_Secure/0OgDzGqkTDz4PiuTteEXLAi4YN3*zCh1s0Kx9E6AH7SSdl4NYd r*fN77UI037v!VLCKYSTPXhLZo0bF4uLN4rrw2OoMaqajkR/Test-Mix0.jpg[/img]

Conclusion: Since we know that test levels can not return to normal as long as exogenous (outside the body) test is still active it is in everyone's best interest to get on fast and get off quick. This means when you get off if you are doing an 8 week on 6 week off type schedule you will have 6 FULL weeks to recover on clomid. With the cypionate you will only have 3 weeks to recover and with the sust you might as well have not even gotten off.

Pain is weakness leaving the body....

"What do you know your just a Chemical Freak...Actually I'm a Chemical Super Freak...." - The Rock

[This message was edited by Juice Junkie on 10-26-2001 at 02:08 AM.]

[Juice Junkie]

Mr. N, you ask for a front loaded, optimal cycle here it is.

wk1 cyp 750/wk
wk2 cyp 500/wk
wk3 cyp 500/wk
wk4 cyp 500/wk
wk5 cyp 500/wk
wk6 prop 500/wk
wk7 prop 650/wk
wk8 prop 650/wk



Pain is weakness leaving the body....

"What do you know your just a Chemical Freak...Actually I'm a Chemical Super Freak...." - The Rock

[coroner]

Is your ordinate supposed to be "weeks on cycle" rather than "days on cycle?"

Something just doesn't look right, what equations are you using?

__________________
Night will come, and I will follow

[Dragon]

I am have the same ??

[Juice Junkie]

Yeah that was just a typo, but you get the idea, it was 3:30am when I did these.

Pain is weakness leaving the body....

"What do you know your just a Chemical Freak...Actually I'm a Chemical Super Freak...." - The Rock

[Warlock]

Good graph,

can you explain this part, why might you have never gotten off sus?

"With the cypionate you will only have 3 weeks to recover and with the sust you might as well have not even gotten off".

don't get what you mean there?

Warlock

[This message was edited by Warlock on 10-26-2001 at 08:58 PM.]

[malhavoc]

So are you saying that clomid shouldn't be started until 6 weeks after your last sust shot?

[Ivan Drago]

What is half life of Decanoate and Cypionate?

[coroner]

OK I figured out what was not making sense. You have the serum levels as being higher than the levels possible in the depot. This is physically impossible.
The level in the depot for a single injection is
C(t)=C(to)*e^-(t/thalf). This says in words that the concentration in the depot, as a function of time, is equal to the initial concentration times e to the negative time over halflife.
The level in the serum (for a single injection) would then be C(t)=C(to)*[1-e^-(t/thalf)]. This assumes that there is NO removal from the bloodstream. If you were to add a removal term it would look like C(t)=C(to)*[1-e^-(t/thalf)]-C(t)*e^-(t/thalf_removal).
Of course you are adding more to the depot every other day (or whatever your injection schedule is), and we can assume that as soon as the test reaches the bloodstream it is gone (we are assuming negligible serum halflife, a fair assumption since the serum t1/2 will be much smaller than the depot t1/2). If you keep injecting sus, lets say twice a week, you should see on your graph the depot level going up to some value and fluctuating around that value; the serum levels would also go up to some value, and fluctuate around it (albeit the serum level should be lower than the depot level).
I did this all mathematically using a differential equation solver over the summer, but I can't find the ****ing graphs.

What is misleading about your graphs, I guess, is that you don't really show the depot levels per se but just show an injection amout. At least I think that's what the purple curve stands for.

That all being said, I concur with your conclusions because of the "tapering" nature of sus. (Your graphs do correctly show the taper at the end.) Those long esters kill you at the end of the cycle, leaving you in a state where there is not a supraphysiological level of test in your body, but still enough around to keep your HPTA shut down.

Another interesting thing to do is to play around with frontloading with Prop. The interesting feature, and it's shown in your curves too, is that it takes awhile (if you are using sus or cyp) for serum levels to steady out. Adding the prop at the beginning of the cycle helps that initial rise to occur faster.

*Meant as a guide only, I think we talked about using graphs of stuff with many, many assumptions (some of which are just plain false) cannot and does not accurately depict the truth for each individual.
Ahh, here's one of the graphs. I don't remember how much was being injected and how often, but for this graph I was using sus and TC (TC starting week 3).


__________________
Night will come, and I will follow

[Ivan Drago]

That's why most users take Dbol in the beggining of the cycle.
Anyway, can someone answer me, what are half lives of Decanoate and Cypionate, because looking at those graphs and seing Decanoate being active for 6 weeks after last injections, makes me highly doubt accuracy of the information.

[coroner]

The thing is, ID, is that the substance can be bioavailable for up to 5-7 halflives! Lets just say that the halflife for deca is 3 weeks. That means that if you inject 100 mg, in 3 weeks you still have 50 mg left, after 6 weeks, you still have 25 mg left, 9 weeks 12.5 mg left, 12 weeks 6.25 g left, 15 weeks 3.13 g left, etc etc. A useful assumption is that the substance is gone when there is less than one percent of the initial value left; that's where the "7 halflife" rule comes from. If the halflife of deca was really 3 weeks, that would mean 21 weeks till it's gone! Nevermind the fact that this is overly simplistic but it makes the point.

__________________
Night will come, and I will follow

[Ivan Drago]

If substance is still bioavailable, it doesn't mean, that it still can suppress HPTA, or prevent one from recovery, and that's what our concern should be about.
From my understanding, soon as level of steroid drops to basal, the endocrine system is ready for recovery, with proper help, of course.
And, correct me, if I'm wrong, takes two half lives.
To my knowledge, half life of Deca-Durabolin(Decanoate ester, also used in Sustanon, and the longest in it) is appox. 7 days.
Seems to me, that 6 weeks is A WAY too long...for practical application.

[Trevdog]

Thank you for this thread. It is excellent.

I agree with the idea of using prop in the beginning of a cycle and at the end.

It also seems that if you are going to use sustenon at all, it is best used at the beginning of a cycle. Don't the long esters in sust help in maintaining somewhat steady levels of test, and the short acting prop in sust helps get blood levels up quickly?

[Dragon]

Decanoate can and will supress natural test levels for six weeks. Once test is supressed it takes a time period after which levels af AAS drop below a vey low point. This is where H C G works good.

[Ivan Drago]

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/co...ll/281/1/93#F2

Please, read carefully the whole thing. The numbers in the study are far away from mentioned 6 weeks.
Also, what do you mean, by "suppressed", time of natural recovery? or return to basal line were with assistence of Clomid and Arimidex recovery will is possible?

JJ, you are showing graphs for 15 days and talking about 8 weeks cycle, what's up with that?

[Juice Junkie]

Ivan, read above, the days are a typo. It was actually intended to be weeks therefore 15 "days" is actually 15 weeks. As for the half lives:
Decanoate: 7 days
Cypionate: 5 days
Enanthate: 6 days
Propionate: 2 days
Phenylpropionate: 3 days
Isocaporate: 5 days
The graphs illustate the point I have trying to advocate for those who are having trouble understanding what is meant by tapering esters. Graphically it is correct and numerically its close but there are several variables that can not and have not been entered such as "free testosterone" in the blood stream. I think it makes the point though for those who have questioned the use of sustanon and its place in our arsenal.

Warlock, the reason you might as well have never gotten off assumes that you have a plan to go 8 on and 6 off. If the deconoate ester takes 6 weeks to diminish enough to prompt natural production to even start to return then there is no point in ever even getting off because the 6 weeks you quit injecting the sust was still active so when you start again after your off time test production is still down and receptors are still occupied.

Malhavoc, yes and no, I am saying you should taper the esters meaning get off cyp/enan 3 weeks out and start using prop or even suspension. If sust is going to be used take it in the beginning and make sure you switch 6 weeks prior to ending your cycle. As for the clomid if you do finish up with sust at the end of your cycle there isn't any point in taking the clomid till the sust is out of your system so yes wait at least 4-6 weeks.

Trev, yes the mixed esters in theory are supposed to maintain even blood levels. But sust is not a bodybuilding drug per say. It was designed for test replacement therapy to prevent someone from having to take injections EOD or every week. With sust the doc can give injections every 2-3 weeks.

Pain is weakness leaving the body....

"What do you know your just a Chemical Freak...Actually I'm a Chemical Super Freak...." - The Rock

[Ivan Drago]

I don't know what to say....
Let's make it clear first, JJ, are you saing that one shouldn't start Clomid therapy after cycle of 500mg/week of Sustanon, for at least 6 weeks after last injection?
BTW, Enanthate's half life is shorter then Cypionate's, also Phenylprop's is about 4.5 days, not 3, and Decanoate's is approx. 6.5, at least according to numerous studies. But, it's not important to our discussion of that "6 weeks" statement of yours [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

[Juice Junkie]

Actually the data I have on the half lives of these esters are from an extended PDR at my wifes work (medically oriented) where test replacement therapy is fairly common. If you have other data please post your source. As for the clomid I thought I had already answered that by saying between 4-6 weeks after your last injection. It really depends on when test levels fall below normal which of course differs for each person. To be safe I would say 4-6 weeks, taking the clomid to soon would be wasteful obviously and could actually delay recovery.

Pain is weakness leaving the body....

"What do you know your just a Chemical Freak...Actually I'm a Chemical Super Freak...." - The Rock

[user24]

What is the halflife of primobolan, and is it justifiable to use it in extension of a deca cycle to "bridge" the waiting period for deca concentration to fall sufficiently? Than wait for as much as needed for primo do decompose, and start clomid. I was told to wait two weeks untill clomid after primo, is that correct? If it is, that would make the halflife of primo be only a few days, surely less than 7.

[Ivan Drago]

1: Acta Endocrinol Suppl (Copenh) 1985;271:19-30 Related Articles, Books

Pharmacokinetic parameters of nandrolone (19-nortestosterone) after intramuscular administration of nandrolone decanoate (Deca-Durabolin) to healthy volunteers.

Wijnand HP, Bosch AM, Donker CW.

Nandrolone decanoate (Deca-Durabolin) was injected intramuscularly into healthy volunteers. One group of females received one injection of 100 mg and three groups of males received one injection of 200 mg, two repeat injections of 100 mg or four repeat injections of 50 mg respectively. The serum levels of nandrolone (19-nortestosterone) were determined by radioimmunoassay and used to estimate pharmacokinetic parameters. The following pharmacokinetic parameters were found: a mean half-life of 6 days for the release of the ester from the muscular injection depot into the general circulation; a mean half-life of 4.3 h for the combined processes of hydrolysis of nandrolone decanoate and of distribution and elimination of nandrolone; a mean nandrolone serum clearance of 1.55 1 X h-1 X kg-1. The half-life of hydrolysis of nandrolone decanoate in serum was of the order of one hour or less. The data are consistent with linear kinetics.

PMID: 3865478 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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1: Int J Androl 1984 Jun;7(3):181-7 Related Articles, Books


Comparative pharmacokinetics of testosterone enanthate and testosterone cyclohexanecarboxylate as assessed by serum and salivary testosterone levels in normal men.

Schurmeyer T, Nieschlag E.

The pharmacokinetics of 2 testosterone esters, testosterone enanthate and testosterone cyclohexanecarboxylate, were compared in a single blind crossover study in healthy young men. Their effects on serum and salivary levels of testosterone, as well as on the serum levels of LH, FSH and prolactin were measured after the injection of doses equivalent to 140 mg free testosterone. Both preparations yielded supraphysiological testosterone levels in serum and saliva as early as 2 h following injection, reaching peak levels 4 to 5 times above basal between 8 and 24 h. LH and FSH levels were suppressed as long as serum testosterone levels were elevated. Nine days after injecting testosterone enanthate and 7 days after giving testosterone cyclohexanecarboxylate, serum and salivary levels of testosterone had returned to basal. The longer activity of testosterone enanthate was also evidenced from more extended suppression of gonadotrophin levels. Although neither preparation is ideal because of the initial supraphysiological peaks, testosterone enanthate appears preferable for clinical use because of its slightly longer duration of action.
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Nine days after injection of Enanthate serum level returned to normal, which gives us 4.5 days of half life.

Now, from the Minto study:

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/co...ll/281/1/93#F2


"Pharmacodynamic analysis. Plasma testosterone concentrations were most rapidly and completely suppressed within the first week after injections of the phenylpropionate ester (fig. 3; tables 2 and 6), but this suppression was sustained for the shortest time. The duration of suppression was significantly longest after the gluteal 1-ml injection. Plasma testosterone concentrations returned to base line by day 13 after the phenylpropionate ester but required >20 days to return to base-line levels after the decanoate ester."
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As you can see, they are not talking about nandrolones concentration in plasma, but about the duration of testosteron suppression which is not the same.
So, now knowing that Decanoate's half life is 6.5 days and it has duration of suppression of 20 days, and PP's duration of suppression, with the same dosage is 13 days, we can easily find calculate half life of PP.
half life(PP)= 13x6.5/20=4.225 days
So, half life of Phenylpropionate is approx. 4 days.
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As for Clomid therapy, I think, the mistake you make, that basically, you advocating to wait for your body to get to the point when it can start recovery( zero suppression) and then start Clomid. But, at that point Clomid will not only be of no nessecery, but actually will delayed recovery. Clomid therapy shoud be started soon as test level reaches basal line, which, as you can see from studies above is far shorter time that 4-6 weeks.

[Unity66]

excellent thread.......too bad i have nothing to add to it except that ive always liked to use a long-acting ester and swith to proprionate for the last 5-6wks. this gives the body time for the longer esters to clear before emarbarking on your own personal gains-keeper formula........

nice work fellas......im off to train but not before a cut and paste!!

Unity66

I love the way you high light the main point of a research paper so we do not have to read all that junk to figure out what they are really saying. I wish they did that in school.....LOL

I think the last couple of weeks of a good cycle out to be faster acting products : proprionate, dbol, anavar etc. That way you are still on AAS while the longer acting esters clear your system. Then when you drop the injectible prop etc whatever left over AAS are in your system are gone within days.