For all you low carb guru's

[JGUNS]

The effect of low-carbohydrate diet on the pattern of hormonal changes during incremental, graded exercise in young men.

Langfort JL, Zarzeczny R, Nazar K, Kaciuba-Uscilko H.

Department of Applied Physiology, Medical Research Centre, Polish Academy of Sceinces, 5 Pawinskiego Str., PL-02-106 Warsaw, Poland.

The purpose of this study was to discover whether severe dietary carbohydrate (CHO) restriction modifies the relationship between exercise intensity and hormonal responses to exercise. Changes in the plasma adrenaline (A), noradrenaline (NA), growth hormone (hGH), testosterone (T), and blood lactate (LA) during an incremental exercise performed until volitional exhaustion were determined in 8 physically active volunteers after 3 days on low CHO (< 5% of energy content; L-CHO) and isocaloric mixed (M) diets. Following L-CHO diet, the basal plasma A, NA, and hGH concentrations were increased, whilst T and LA levels were decreased. During exercise all the hormones increased exponentially, with thresholds close to that of LA. Neither the magnitude nor the pattern of the hormonal changes were affected by L-CHO diet except the NA threshold, which was lowered. Blood LA response to exercise was diminished and LA threshold was shifted towards higher loads by L-CHO diet. It is concluded that restriction of CHO intake (a) does not affect the pattern of changes in plasma A, hGH, and T concentrations during graded exercise but lowers NA threshold, indicating increased sensitivity of the sympathetic nervous system to exercise stimulus; (b) alters the basal and exercise levels of circulating hormones, which may have an impact on the balance between anabolic and catabolic processes and subsequently influence the effectiveness of training.


I think this underscores the importance of carbohydrate intake during strength training. Low carb dieting is great for trying to get cut, but not a great idea for mass phases, or strength training.

Deeds...Not Words.

[Cornellius]

Actually I was just discussing this with a frien yesterday...
Good info, thanks.

______________________________
Yes, I know that my spelling sucks...

[archive_therealj]

that's where stimulants pick up the slack...carbs are the devil..post work-out and the ocassional cheat meal is the only time I indulge...it might make packing on weight a little harder but I've been much happier with the quality weight I have packed on since keeping my carb intake low

[JGUNS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>that's where stimulants pick up the slack...carbs are the devil..post work-out and the ocassional cheat meal is the only time I indulge...it might make packing on weight a little harder but I've been much happier with the quality weight I have packed on since keeping my carb intake low <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"alters the basal and exercise levels of circulating hormones, which may have an impact on the balance between anabolic and catabolic processes and subsequently influence the effectiveness of training."

Stimulants may help you with your training intensity, but will not help you avoid a catabolic state. I too, follow the "carbs are the devil" credo, but not when I am on a mass cycle or trying to increase strength exponentially. Long term systematic Carb reduction will ultimately result in muscle loss. This study outlines the mechanism through which that works.

Deeds...Not Words.

[archive_therealj]

"which MAY have an impact on the balance between anabolic and catabolic processes and subsequently influence the effectiveness of training."

I guess do to the fact I'll never "bulk" again I can't be forced to believe carbs are that necessary...since I've dropped my carb intake I've managed to increase my scale weight while lowering my BF...it's a slow process this way..but the ups and downs of bulking and cutting just don't work for me..plus my new girlfriend has a hot-tub so any winter plans I had of being fat are out the window [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]...just so you know I agree for pure mass carbs are essential...

[JGUNS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> plus my new girlfriend has a hot-tub so any winter plans I had of being fat are out the window <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can I come over too? Minnesota is damn cold in the winter! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

Deeds...Not Words.

[archive_Bjaarki]

I'm with J on this. Carbs are evil. Pure and simple.

Homo sapiens as a species is not adapted to a carbohydrate diet. This point has been made here before by better men than me, I'm just repeating someone else's ideas but, yeah, fact is that H. sapiens did not eat much in the way of carbs until about 10,000 year ago - no time at all, in evolutionary terms - and the onset of grain agriculture is pretty contemporaneous with increases in obesity rates, various metabolic diseases, etc..

We're killer apes, boys. We're adapted to eat meat, roots, fruits, seedpods and stuff like that.

I think, though, that there may be a difference between different kinds of carbs and how they affect leanness and fat deposition. I can eat all the apples, fruit, and legumes I want, and they don't seem to affect me. It's grain-based stuff I avoid like the plague. Rice, pasta, bread - unh-unh!

Bjaarki

" 'Til the weard of the world, stands, unforgotten,
high under Heaven, the Hero's name!"
Hrolff Krakki's Saga (Iceland)

BECOME SOMEONE'S HERO!

[bigozzman]

i to think carbs arent a major factor in bulking up. ive tried both ways and found that even with a clean diet and high carbs i put on more bodyfat and less muscle mass than i did with eating more protien and just droping cardio and resting more.
for me atleast carbs = fat increase and not much muscle. however like most other people i do take in the brunt of my carb intake postworkout.
no body is the same, my buddy can eat carbs like crazy and put on muscle with no bodyfat were as i just smell the stuff and get pudgy..

[JGUNS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> i to think carbs arent a major factor in bulking up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a lot of misinformatin out there. I am not sure if most people even realize why they are villanizing carbs. There is no question in my mind that most of the results of low carbohydrate diets is due mainly to the severe caloric restriction and NOT any sort of ketogenic reaction.
"Getting a high percentage of your calories from carbohydrate doesn't make you fat, because weight depends only on how many calories you take in relative to how many you burn off.

Paying attention to calories is critical for weight control. When people are encouraged to eat more carbohydrate and less fat, some get the wrong message. They think they can eat as much high-carbohydrate food as they want, as long as the food is fat-free. Consequently, they eat too many low-fat sweets and extra-large portions of starches. As a result, they can't lose weight and may feel that carbohydrates have "betrayed" them.

Cutting back on dietary fat does reduce total calories more than cutting back on carbohydrate, because fat supplies more than twice the calories by weight. In addition, fat is more likely to be stored as body fat than is carbohydrate. However, a person who cuts back on fat calories but adds them back in the form of carbohydrate calories is not going to lose weight. It's a simple matter of energy balance that holds true for people whether they're active or not "

"You'll lose weight on these diets because of the severe caloric restriction, not because of what is supposedly happening to insulin levels. You'll eventually lose something else, too: your performance and well-being. You need to eat enough calories and carbohydrate to maintain your muscle stores of glycogen--the favored fuel for exercise. Following a low-calorie, low-carbohydrate diet will only put you into a twilight zone of near starvation."

Exactly why this is good for short term dieting. Long term low carb dieting will deplete stores of glycogen and your body will catabolic and begin eating muscles and organs for glycogen.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Homo sapiens as a species is not adapted to a carbohydrate diet. This point has been made here before by better men than me, I'm just repeating someone else's ideas but, yeah, fact is that H. sapiens did not eat much in the way of carbs until about 10,000 year ago - no time at all, in evolutionary terms - and the onset of grain agriculture is pretty contemporaneous with increases in obesity rates, various metabolic diseases, etc..

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as the theory of ancient humans being unsuited for carbohydrate diets. That makes me laugh! First, Look at the physiology of the human mouth. You will see teeth for tearing AND grinding. Guess what the grinding teeth are for? PLANTS, IE Carbo's. You also find a multi directional jaw made for just that purpose. Fact is, humans have consumed both carbohydrate sources and meat sources since at least homo erectus. Yes, agrarian societies have only been around for 10.000 years or so, but that only means that that was how long since humans have been farming. That does NOT mean that was when Humans first started consuming plants. In times of winter, the earliest humans may have had to rely more on meat, but that was only because they had too. Winter only lasts a few months.
As far as onset of diseases, are you kidding me? Homo Sapiens' average life span was in the 20-30 years range.The Life span of humans has increased exponentially due mainly to NUTRITION. Humans have also grown taller over the last century. A spurt in growth like that can only be attributed to nutritional factors.
We are talking about carbohydrates in the context of bodybuilding anyway, so if some eskimo can survive on seals and whale blubber that doesn't mean much to me. I don't think that the eskimo is concerned about how much he can squat.
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

Deeds...Not Words.

[This message was edited by JGUNS on 10-24-2001 at 08:37 PM.]

[archive_Bjaarki]

J:

You probably know more about this than I do. This is my experience, though.

You're wrong about one point though, bro. Yeah, we have teeth for eating plants. Plants, man. Not grains. Plants. Grains could not be gathered efficiently - hell, most varieties didn't even exist until we bred them within the past 100 years - and they weren't gathered our eaten much by primitive man. We didn't eat grains until fairly recently. We ate plants, but I already gave you that. I eat plants, too - fruits, stalks of things like celery, roots, etc. - but that's not grains, which is where we get most of our carbs from.

Show me someone who eats a lot of carbs, and I'll show you someone who could afford to drop a few pounds. I don't understand even how you could argue with that.

Interesting discussion, though, and that's why we're here.

My $.02, anyway.

Bjaarki

" 'Til the weard of the world, stands, unforgotten,
high under Heaven, the Hero's name!"
Hrolff Krakki's Saga (Iceland)

BECOME SOMEONE'S HERO!

[JGUNS]

"Current carbohydrates often take the form of sugars and sweeteners. ... Products of this sort, together with items made from highly refined grain flours, constitute empty calories ... devoid of accompanying essential amino and fatty acids, vitamins, minerals and possibly phytochemicals,"<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You're wrong about one point though, bro. Yeah, we have teeth for eating plants. Plants, man. Not grains. Plants. Grains could not be gathered efficiently - hell, most varieties didn't even exist until we bred them within the past 100 years - and they weren't gathered our eaten much by primitive man. We didn't eat grains until fairly recently. We ate plants, but I already gave you that. I eat plants, too - fruits, stalks of things like celery, roots, etc. - but that's not grains, which is where we get most of our carbs from.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are absolutely correct on that point. Highly refined grains were not present until the last 10,000 years or so. I also do not advocate eating a ton of those because of their negative usable nutritional value. When I espouse the benefit of carbohydrate intake for maximal training effectiveness and mass building, I am talking specifically about potatoes, rice, fruits, whole grains,other vegetables and NOT processed carbohydrate sources.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Show me someone who eats a lot of carbs, and I'll show you someone who could afford to drop a few pounds. I don't understand even how you could argue with that.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'll also show you someone that eats a lot of everything. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] Let's face it, the most abundant junk food available is carbohydrate based. Twinkies are not made out of beef! If you eat ANYTHING in huge amounts and don't excercise at all, you will not have a schwarzeneggar physique.
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Deeds...Not Words.

[archive_therealj]

calling Decaman [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

its about chronicly high insulin levels shuttling fat into every cell and putting you on the road to become a type II diabetic, when type II your body increases insulin even more to make the receptors respond and voila more fat goes to fat cells. High endogenous insulin you get from a diet high in refined carbohydrates with high glycemic index among others, so all carbs are not bad, potatoes (except sweet potatoes), and overcooked rice however have a very high G.I.
The secret is to lower the G.I of your carbs, which fiber for instance will do very well.

please take the time to read this excellent article on insulin on detest.net:
http://www.testosterone.net/html/121ins.html


Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only.

[JGUNS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> High endogenous insulin you get from a diet high in refined carbohydrates with high glycemic index among others, so all carbs are not bad, potatoes (except sweet potatoes), and overcooked rice however have a very high G.I.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have seen that article in many forms and understand the Insulin response mechanism. You'll notice the article does not tell you to eliminate cabohydrates from your diet, only to eat foods that will increase Insulin sensitivity.

Deeds...Not Words.

[Pharm Animal]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The Life span of humans has increased exponentially due mainly to NUTRITION. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SCIENCE, not nutrition. 99.999% of americans have fucked up dietary habits, which should have decreased their lifespans. humans did not understand microbiology, pharmacology, or medicine very well at all (as we know it) until the 1800's. what humans eat has hardly anything to do with their lifespans.

"You cannot flex fat."

[JGUNS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>humans did not understand microbiology, pharmacology, or medicine very well at all (as we know it) until the 1800's. what humans eat has hardly anything to do with their lifespans.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While it is true that medical advances and improvements in hygiene and sanitation played a large part in lengthening lifespans, to say that Nutrition has nothing to do with human life expectancy is certainly a bold statement. Do you have supporting evidence of that theory?

Deeds...Not Words.

[This message was edited by JGUNS on 10-24-2001 at 11:02 PM.]

[maxx]

They must be bad for you, I like them too much.

I think it is ratio, I can eat carbs if I dont let them be my staple food they put on weight but too much bad.

It is eating clean I believe is the short answer, Complex carbs dont bother me at all....its the friggin pasta, bagels and bread.

So I suppose it is not a matter of absolutes but type and amount.

[archive_TonyDelk]

Nice topic fellas. Some good concepts and articulations here.

Let me just begin by saying that I helped with information gathering for the most informative and scientific lowcarb and ketogenic dieting book in the world. To say that I have extensive lowcarb dieting experience and empirical observations from 100's of lowcarb dieting bodybuilders is an understatement.

Here is what I know.

This study does not give any new or revelational evidence subversive to accepted science. "When in the presence of low muscle glycogen, anerobic energy production capacity will be lowered/decreased". Hence the hormonal permutations related to such a state are pretty understandable. Duh. We already knew that. It really is quite simple. The law of thermodynamics will justify all potentiations. It's basically a question of kcal balance.

We did find that there was a sort of "metabolic machinery effiency" resulting from an extreme ketogenic state whereby protein sparing properties were increased in the presence of severe carb restriction. ___ What am I saying here? ___ Basically that if you have two people eating equal kcal reduced bodyfat loss diets one with zero carbs and the other carb based, the zero carb dieter will retain more nitrogen due to some hormonal adaptation in the presence of elevated glucagon and chronic low blood glucose/insulin. (please don't ask for a metabolic explanation..there isn't one. Just ask any hardcore dieter out there about what type of diet will get him/her the leanest while preserving the most muscle mass..or buy the book..;-)

As far as carbs go, there really aren't "evil ones' as some so called diet gurus or weight loss authors would have you believe. Varying biochemical individualities determine insulin response patterns. There are people out there who can maintain low bodyfat %'s by eating Dorito's and Mountain Dew 24/7. Just as there are obese people who eat a typically clean diet.

As others have pointed out the best countermeasure in relation to eating carbs and stabilizing/avoiding fat deposition is eating low glycemic and high fiber types. More importantly avoiding sugar and refined starches except for select time periods and situations as they apply to your unique life situation. ie... if your a bodybuilder and you want to maximize the post training elevated insulin response, you can ramload those above mentioned carb sources/sugars with protein to replenish depleted muscle glycogen and rebuild tissue from microtrauma adaptations from the prior training session.

So in essence you need carbs to train intensely and build lean tissue. Depending on your goals as they apply to your unique situation, you'll need to modify the content, amount and delivery of them to either maintain, burn or build.

Good day.

TD }

[JGUNS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As others have pointed out the best countermeasure in relation to eating carbs and stabilizing/avoiding fat deposition is eating low glycemic and high fiber types. More importantly avoiding sugar and refined starches except for select time periods and situations as they apply to your unique life situation. ie... if your a bodybuilder and you want to maximize the post training elevated insulin response, you can ramload those above mentioned carb sources/sugars with protein to replenish depleted muscle glycogen and rebuild tissue from microtrauma adaptations from the prior training session.

So in essence you need carbs to train intensely and build lean tissue. Depending on your goals as they apply to your unique situation, you'll need to modify the content, amount and delivery of them to either maintain, burn or build.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Great post!

Deeds...Not Words.

[archive_Mr. Nobody]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have seen that article in many forms and understand the Insulin response mechanism. You'll notice the article does not tell you to eliminate cabohydrates from your diet, only to eat foods that will increase Insulin sensitivity.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, the carbs are not evil per say, its how your body responds to them, the evil is chronically elevated insulin levels. IMHO, the best course of action for fat loss and muscle preservation is the following:
Do cardio when glucose storage in your muscle is low (morning), but not when muscle is recuperating (post workout), keep insulin sensitivity high, increase metabolism, reduce overall calories, reduce overall carbs without going to a ketonic diet and do some gear


Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only.

[DREXX]

Hey TD,

Did you write the book with Lyle McDonald or are you Lyle?


If it's not hard it's not worth doing...